AP SEE previous post - http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2011/10/hatzola-protecting-women-from.html
Most Orthodox Jewish women avoid touching men except direct relatives. They don't sit next to men on buses or even at weddings. They have separate swimming hours at indoor pools. But for an emergency birth, Orthodox Jewish women will usually turn to the all-male volunteer ambulance corps known as Hatzolah.
Now a group of women in one of the country's largest Orthodox Jewish communities is proposing to join up with Hatzolah as emergency medical technicians to respond in cases of labor or gynecological emergencies.
The proposal for a women's division has stirred up criticism within Orthodox Jewish circles, with one well-known blog editorializing that it amounts to a "new radical feminist agenda." And when a prominent elected local official, Assemblyman Dov Hikind, spoke about it on his weekly radio show, he was criticized for even bringing the subject up.
Rachel Freier, a Hasidic attorney who is representing the women in the Borough Park neighborhood of Brooklyn, said there is a need for emergency services that adhere to the community's customs of modesty, calling for the sexes to avoid physical contact unless they are related.
"It has nothing to do with feminism," Freier said. "It has to do with the dignity of women and their modesty."
This is an old story with a new headline. It won't happen. The Rabbonim said no already, and Hatzala doesn't disregard their Rabbonim.
ReplyDeleteIf is truly an issue, a woman can call 911 for a labor (or other) issue instead of Hatzala.
as far as New Square, the women in New Square don't even drive! And that's any women living there. The women helping Hatzala in NS are not considered members of Hatzala. They walk over to the women in labor's house (or someone drives her over) and that's it. They don't drive her to the hospital or anything. That is far less radical than the agenda Freier is pushing.
And the women helpers in New Square are not trained EMT's.
ReplyDeleteWhen you call 911 you don't get an opportunity to insist on them sending personnel of the same gender as yourself either.
If its the community element that is a concern, call 9-1-1 and you'll get someone you don't know.
Mrs. Freier, as Hatzala CEO David Cohen stated, consider your "suggestion" to have been declined. It is an issue, as he said, that has been discussed and decided by Hatzala's rabbinic board long ago.
These proponents want to have women respond only to labor calls (like in New Square) or to respond to all female general Hatzalah calls?
ReplyDeleteMy guess is they want to break barriers one at a time. First propose "only" for labor, then later add for all female issues, then followed for all female victims, and then finally for all calls by Hatzalah.
Did Chazal contemplate that the system they codified would develop into such idiocy that a person in danger of her life would still feel it necessary to pick and choose who gets to save her?
ReplyDelete"The Rabbonim said no already, and Hatzala doesn't disregard their Rabbonim"
ReplyDeleteMaybe this new group of women volunteers WILL disregard them, however, and when women vote with their feet by utilizing their services, then as is it always seems to be the case the rabbis will change their tune in response to the frum masses.
Mighty Garnel Ironheart said...
ReplyDeleteDid Chazal contemplate that the system they codified would develop into such idiocy that a person in danger of her life would still feel it necessary to pick and choose who gets to save her?
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Don't know why you are using such harsh terms. Pikuach nefesh is not just a question of bleeding or infection. Chazal clearing considered psychological concerns as pikuach nefesh. There are clearly cases where women because of the stresses of concerns for modesty have endangered their lives. There is no where Chazal said such a person's concerns are ignored or treated with contempt. For Pikuach nefesh issue you treat the person as they are. If a person feels more comfortable going to a more distant hospital that is allowed even though it involves greater melacha on Shabbos.
You remind me of a Chassidic rebbe that I was discussing the issue of mental illness. He said he has chassidim who are schizophrenic and he simply tells them to be normal. But in general gedolim says that medication is required and don't try to order them to follow their Daas Torah and be normal.
Joseph you are missing the whole issue. If halacha permits female emts then what is your problem. If halacha doesn't permit it then the issue is not relevant.
ReplyDeleteWhat were the rabbonim asked and what did they answer?. Which rabbonim were consulted? I can't find any written teshuvos on the subject
"Joseph you are missing the whole issue. If halacha permits female emts then what is your problem. If halacha doesn't permit it then the issue is not relevant."
ReplyDeleteTznius isn't black and white. You need a posek to rule.
"What were the rabbonim asked and what did they answer?. Which rabbonim were consulted? I can't find any written teshuvos on the subject"
The rabbonim were asked if women can serve on Hatzala. They responded they cannot. (An exception was made in an extenuating circumstance where there wasn't sufficient available males to serve in a specific area, as long as that condition remained, after which point it was required to be discontinued.) Rav Shimon Schwab was one of the Rabbonim. There is no written psak afaik. It was asked by Hatzala and the psak was verbally given to Hatzala.
Joseph even when we had a Sanhedrin the Rambam states that another Sanhedrin could reverse the ruling of a previous court.
ReplyDeleteThere is absolutely no halachic reason why this issue needs to be viewed as a closed issue. Rav Moshe Feinstein poskened that Jewish drivers must be used by hatzola on Shabbos. That is not the psak followed in Israel or Williamsburg. Rav Moshe Feinstein ruled no eruv in Brooklyn - other poskim disagreed. That is simply the nature of the halachic process. Who told you that the matter was closed and for what reason?
"Joseph even when we had a Sanhedrin the Rambam states that another Sanhedrin could reverse the ruling of a previous court."
ReplyDeleteIn this case why should another posek overrule the first? Has anything changed? In fact, why should the same shaila even be re-asked? I see no reason that anything changed in the last 30 years on this issue.
"There is absolutely no halachic reason why this issue needs to be viewed as a closed issue. Rav Moshe Feinstein poskened that Jewish drivers must be used by hatzola on Shabbos. That is not the psak followed in Israel or Williamsburg."
Did Israel or Williamsburg ever follow Rav Moshe on this issue and later changed? Not that I'm aware of. They followed a different psak, and kept to it.
"Rav Moshe Feinstein ruled no eruv in Brooklyn - other poskim disagreed. That is simply the nature of the halachic process. Who told you that the matter was closed and for what reason?"
Sure, poskim disagree all the time. Nothing new. But we still don't shop around for a convenient psak. Especially if a psak was already issue on the matter and it has been accepted and followed.
Joseph it is amazing that you now ask "Has anything changed?" You have not told me what question was asked.The issue is not whether to have a co-ed hatzola organization. So you don't see any reason to ask - but others do. Why are you so indignant if others don't see the world as you do? Exactly what psak was already issued and what psak was accepted and followed.
ReplyDelete"Joseph it is amazing that you now ask "Has anything changed?" You have told me what question was asked. so you don't see any reason to ask - but others do. Why are you so indignant if others don't see the world as you do? What psak was already issued and what psak was accepted and followed."
ReplyDeleteFrom the AP story you linked:
[Chevra Hatzalah CEO Rabbi David Cohen] said a similar proposal had been rejected about 25 years ago — and that nothing had changed since then. "We have an internal statement basically saying we are continuing our policy," he said.
So, as you see, it is Hatzalah's current position that nothing has changed on this matter, and there is no reason or plan to change their policy on this matter.
Anyone is free to again address this issue with Hatzalah's four-member rabbinical board. They are the poskim who decide these issues for Hatzalah. But, frankly, I'm pretty confident these rabbonim will uphold the original psak and current practice. But you are certainly free to ask if you see the world differently than Hatzalah.
Joseph the quote actually says that Rabbi Cohen does not know the exact nature of the proposal and has not talked with them. He said a similar proposal was asked. That sounds pretty vague to me. It doesn't answer my question - what was the question that was asked 25 years ago and who answered it?
ReplyDelete========================
Interviewed recently about the women's proposal, Cohen said he had not heard from the group of women directly but had read about their proposal.
Nevertheless, he declined to answer specific questions about it.
"I really haven't talked to the people. I don't know what they want exactly," he said, adding that Hatzolah's four-member rabbinical board released an internal memo saying that they should not engage in discussions on the matter.
He said a similar proposal had been rejected about 25 years ago — and that nothing had changed since then. "We have an internal statement basically saying we are continuing our policy," he said.
Joseph I spoke with one hatzola person who acknowledged that their gender discrimination was probably against the law and that they realizaed that eventually this would be challenged. He said Hatzola would still be able to function even if they were required to employ both men and women emts
ReplyDeleteAs you've quoted, Rabbi Cohen said the four poskim of Hatzalah released a memo that Hatzalah shouldn't even engage in discussions on the matter. That's a pretty strong statement that this is a closed matter.
ReplyDeleteAs far as the legality, the Hatzala guy you spoke to is probably not a lawyer. A private religious volunteer organization, that is non-profit and doesn't pay members, is not bound to anti-discrimination provisions for its volunteers. It can reject gentiles too, and does, as do nearly all Jewish religious non-profits.
ReplyDeleteFurthermore, Freier publicly stated she will not sue. It would be pretty dumb of her if she did sue Hatzalah. Nor would any Orthodox Jew, who doesn't want to become a community pariah, sue Hatzalah. And even if someone did, they would likely not have the law on their side. And even if they did prevail, in secular court and Hatzalah was required -- on paper at least -- to accept full female members (the court wouldn't rule that they only need to accept females members for female patients or only labor issues - it would be across the board total equality), no sane frum woman would apply to be a Hatzalah member when it is clearly against the wishes of Hatzalah and their Poskim and Rabbonim.
Joseph said...
ReplyDeleteAs you've quoted, Rabbi Cohen said the four poskim of Hatzalah released a memo that Hatzalah shouldn't even engage in discussions on the matter. That's a pretty strong statement that this is a closed matter
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that simply means they are not discussing it with a reporter before they have a chance to discuss it internally. It doesn't mean the matter is closed
Yeshivas don't have to hire female rebbeim and a shul doesn't have to hire a gentile caretakes. They are free to discriminate by religion and gender.
ReplyDeletePersonally, what I find most disturbing about Mrs. Freier's activites, is that she is running a media campaign in her attempt to ram this change down Hatzala's throughts. In today's story she ran to to the AP to sell her agenda. Today's AP story has a photo the AP photographer took of Freier enacting a rescue scene on a dummy patient. Previously she ran to other non-Jewish and secular irreligious Jewish media outles to promote this agenda.
ReplyDeleteJoseph said...
ReplyDeleteAs far as the legality, the Hatzala guy you spoke to is probably not a lawyer. A private religious volunteer organization, that is non-profit and doesn't pay members, is not bound to anti-discrimination provisions for its volunteers. It can reject gentiles too, and does, as do nearly all Jewish religious non-profits.
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Hatzola takes government funds if I recall correctly so the laws are different then if it were totally privately funded.
This issue was not whether someone was threatening a suit - but it was assumed by the hatzola person that eventually a suit would happened from some government agency.
"Hatzola takes government funds if I recall correctly so the laws are different then if it were totally privately funded."
ReplyDeleteI almost certain that (NYC) Chevra Hatzalah does not even take a dime of government funding. In fact, they do not even take insurance payments from their patients insurance carriers.
"This issue was not whether someone was threatening a suit - but it was assumed by the hatzola person that eventually a suit would happened from some government agency."
Highly unlikely. Hatzalah has the law on their side. And the government has no interest. The government doesn't sue a religious private non-profit for discriminating based on their religious basis. Especially since they receive no government funding. And especially since equal opportunity (EEOC) lawsuits are only considered if someone complains to the government (mesira).
http://www.hatzolahw.com/
ReplyDelete"Hatzolah does not receive any government funding, nor does it seek reimbursement from medical insurance companies."
http://www.bphatzolah.org/about.html
ReplyDelete"Hatzalah does not bill insurance companies for any of their services, and is not subsidized by any Federal, State or local government funding."
Other than this very small group of loudmouths, the vast majority of frum women have no problem whatsoever with Hatzalah as-is. The Freier group hasn't demonstrated any scientific survey that a majority of women don't like Hatzalah.
ReplyDeleteAnd what is the problem if they call 9-1-1 if they don't like Hatzala's policies?
ReplyDelete9-1-1 is a 24/7 option available to anyone dissatisfied with Hatzalah.
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/article.php?p=65343
ReplyDeleteHatzalah To Receive $445,000 From Assemblywoman Helene Weinstein To Overhaul Command Center Communication System
(Monday, July 12th, 2010)
Assemblywoman Helene Weinstein joined by Assembly Speaker Sheldon Silver, Rabbi David Cohen, CEO of Chevra Hatzalah, and Mr. Heshy Jacobs, President of Chevra Hatzalah announced $445,000 in funding to overhaul the communication system at Hatzalah’s new command center in the Flatbush section of Brooklyn.
Megilla
ReplyDeleteMost women are uncomfortable and distressed by male Hatzala EMTs when it is a female issue at hand.
Please stop talking for or assuming what women think.
Megila said...
ReplyDeleteOther than this very small group of loudmouths, the vast majority of frum women have no problem whatsoever with Hatzalah as-is. The Freier group hasn't demonstrated any scientific survey that a majority of women don't like Hatzalah
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How do you know that the vast majority have no problem - did you speak to them?
That's an irregular grant. It is not standard recurring funding. Grants are made at the discretion of a local legislator and are not a source of regular government funding. It essentially doesn't come with any general conditions on the organization other than the stipulations what that one-time grant can be used to fund (i.e. life-saving equipment, etc.) Effectively the only condition such a grant comes with is the stipulation what to use that grant for.
ReplyDeleteRegular government funding (i.e. annual funding) could be used as leverage where they will say we will cut future funding if you don't comply with whatever general conditions. Since Hatzalah receives no regular government funding, it has no concerns.
"How do you know that the vast majority have no problem - did you speak to them?"
ReplyDelete====================
How does Freier know the majority of frum women does have a problem with Hatzalah? Did she speak to a majority? If not, who appointed her spokeswoman to declate there is a problem with the current system? No one.
And no one has an answer why Freier and her like-minded cannot simply use 9-1-1 if they have a problem with Hatzala. They can call City EMS (FDNY or whoever their local agency is). Where do they come to demand from Hatzala more than from EMS/9-1-1? FDNY will not necessarily send a female EMT for a female call. And EMS will not send a community member. So let them call them.
Megila who said he is demanding anything. She has raised the question. She has acknowledged that it is up to the rabbis in conjunction with hatzalo to decide- she is raised her concerns and that of other women she has talked with.
ReplyDeleteRegarding calling 911 I assume it is for the same reason that hatzola was created.
"Regarding calling 911 I assume it is for the same reason that hatzola was created."
ReplyDelete=====================
Hatzala was created for life and death emergencies like heart attacks, traumatic arrest, severe accidents, etc., where every second can make the difference between life and death. And if the local EMS takes 2 or 3 minutes longer, it could make all the difference.
Here, Freier's proposal is allegedly only for Hatzala calls for labor deliveries (per her guest article on your blog last month.) This is something 9-1-1 (or even flagging down a police officer) is well suited for.
No need to mess around with Hatzala.
BTW, in New Square (the example Freier is trying to use as an example), the women who help in Hatzala labor calls only come to the premises of the women to help her out there. They do not go into the ambulance. The Hatzala men of NS come to the house, apply the medical equipment to her if necessary, put her into the ambulance, are the only ones in the ambulance, take her from the ambulance into the hospital, etc. The women go home once the men put her into the ambulance.
ReplyDeleteThere should be a unit for birthing that includes women service members as much as possible. But even if it is only male, those men should be taught a special sensitivity about delivering in a tznius'dik manner.
ReplyDeleteHoweverm using the tactic that it's about tznius that we want women hatzolo to service the women just feeds into the extremist segregation issue. Perhaps those women whose babies need to be delivered by a male hatzolo, should just throw on their burka garb - cover up their faces and pretend they don't know their neighbor.
If they push the agenda that it's so not tznius for the men to deliver babies, soon they will have have warped halacha to the point that the hatzolo men WON'T touch a woman even if she's drowning in the river. We already see such mentality in Israel where elderly ladies have to stagger to the back of the bus.
> Chazal clearing considered psychological concerns as pikuach nefesh.
ReplyDeleteNot my point. Chazal classified childbirth as an issue of sakanas nefashos for physical reasons.
My point is: Women are going through these issues because of what the system teaches them: Tznius uber alles, even one's own life. What kind of system teaches a woman that it is acceptable to pick and choose when she is considered in danger of her life?
Seriously? Freier wants to force women into Hatzalah for LABOR calls? Since when are women in labor driven to the hospital in an AMBULANCE? Sure, there are such rare cases. And those are the times it is in the news. But normally a woman in labor is driven to the hospital privately. And if she CHOSE a distance hospital for delivery, she makes sure she has arrangements in advance to get to the hospital in time. 911/EMS isn't to be used for general labor calls needing transport to the hospital. And neither should Hatzalah be used as a valet car service.
ReplyDelete