Tiferes Shlomo (Beshalach): The foundation of emunas chachomim is to believe in the words of the righteous of the generation (which are permeated with G‑d’s spirit) and everything they speak about and advise – even in issues not connected with mitzvos or sins(devar reshus). They are to be believed even if what they say is against commonsense and even if they say that their words are not from G‑d – in other words are not prophetic. That is because in this point a wise man is greater than a prophet. That is because concerning a prophet who speaks in G‑d’s name, faith in him is not relevant. All that matters for a prophet is that he be believed as being the messenger for conveying G‑d’s word. In contrast, emunas chachomim means faith in the chachom’s own words – even if they are against commonsense and are not from G‑d. Nevertheless the chachom’s advice is beneficial and it should be followed exactly as he says - even in material matters such as personal advice for business and in other issues. By following the words of the chachom, it will bring the final redemption…Someone who doesn’t belief in all of this is in fact delaying the redemption and causing the exile to be prolonged…Therefore when it was necessary for the Jews to cross…and to merit redemption by means of emuna – G‑d gave them a test through Moshe which didn’t make sense. G‑d commanded the escaping Jews to return and camp before their enemies. Obviously it was very strange to them to approach rather than avoid their pursuers. Despite the absurdity of the request, they nevertheless remained faithful to Moshe. In other words, they had faith in him even if he hadn’t been the foremost prophet and even if he told them to do something on his own which was not a message from G‑d and they obeyed him. That is what the Torah means when it said that the Jews believed in G‑d and Moshe His servant. It was with this double faith that they crossed and merited the Splitting of the Sea. This great miracle which was connected to the acceptance of the Torah where it said (Shemos 19:9), “And they will also believe in you forever. This is the path of the acquisition of Torah with emunas chachomim.
The difficulty with this is that he says "even if they say that their words are not from G‑d".
ReplyDeleteAll of the previous Sages would claim to have some kind of Ruah Kodesh. The Talmud says that when prophecy left the Neviim, it was passed on to the Sages.
And he expands this even to the non Torah spheres, ie secular matters.
Now, a Sanhedrin was not even guaranteed to be right on religious matters, and yet the Tiferet Shlomo claims to be infallible even in secular matters!
There is no issue of Emunah in this claim - there is no Torah basis to rely on a rabbi for his secular wisdom. Contrast the Rambam, who criticizes even Chazal on some secular matters.
Jacob Friedman, one of the owning partners of the prestigious Proskauer Rose law firm is brought to Agudah fresser conventions to speak about how to fir zich like a ben Torah in gesheft.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/28/nyregion/rights-clash-as-town-clerk-rejects-her-role-in-gay-marriages.html
It doesn't sound very Torahdik that Proskauer Rose is participating in midas Sdom of representing gays who filed a lawsuit to coerce religious people against their beliefs.
There are religious town clerks in NY State who cannot sign gay "marriage" certificates because toayavah is against their beliefs. They still allow the gays to get whatever they want signed through a deputy clerk. The gays and Proskauer Rose say that is not good enough, that the clerk alein must either sign personally or be fired for not personally enabling toayvah.
I would interpret this as them having faith that he was Hashem"s prophet and not just doing things on his own. This idea did not finalise until after Korach's rebellion,where the people did not feel obligated to listen to him precisely because they felt that some things were from him and not from hashem.
ReplyDeleteWhat is your point in posting this? Where is your voice, Daas Torah? How can you promote such a dangerous teaching by posting this?
ReplyDeleteRocky
rocky said...
ReplyDeleteWhat is your point in posting this? Where is your voice, Daas Torah? How can you promote such a dangerous teaching by posting this?
==============
As to what is my point - the same one I always have had - to publicize sources for legitimate & accepted Jewish views.
I posted a similar statement said in Rav Moshe Feinstein's name in the Artscroll biography before and you didn't complain [Daas Torah & Rav Moshe Feinstein].
There is no question that this is the accepted view in the Chassidic world. Despite the letter of the Baal HaTanya protesting against it - he eventually gave in the demands of his chassidim and also gave this type of advice. It is also a widespread view in the present Litvish/Yeshiva world
rocky said...
ReplyDeleteWhat is your point in posting this? Where is your voice, Daas Torah? How can you promote such a dangerous teaching by posting this?
==============
As to what is my point - the same one I always have had - to publicize sources for legitimate & accepted Jewish views.
I posted a similar statement said in Rav Moshe Feinstein's name in the Artscroll biography before and you didn't complain [Daas Torah & Rav Moshe Feinstein].
There is no question that this is the accepted view in the Chassidic world. Despite the letter of the Baal HaTanya protesting against it - he eventually gave in the demands of his chassidim and also gave this type of advice. It is also a widespread view in the present Litvish/Yeshiva world
Dear Rabbi Edelsohn;
ReplyDeleteI think that the meaning of the words of the Tiferes Shlomo are being misunderstood here. He is most definitely NOT advocating for acceptance of anything that any “Manhig” says.
Rather, upon a careful reading of his words TWO important points become clear:
1) The Tifrers Shlomo is talking specifically about listening to "צדיקי הדור אשר רוח ה' נוססה בם", or as he more clearly states later on: "נהנין ממנו עצה ותושיה וכאשר יגזר אומר כן יקום בכל דבריו גם בדברי עולם הזה" (for some reason I don’t thing you translated that part into English, but the original can be found in ד"ה וישובו ויחנו). This is obviously a threshold that not too many Manhigim today can reach. See Shabbos 139:A in reference to minhigim that cause tremendous damage to Klal Yisroel. Obviously, there is an obligation to see if a given Manhig has reached the level of ותגזור אומר ויקם, or not. No offense meant, but the common practice of “picking a Kehila to belong to” does not automatically elevate the manhig of that Kehila to the status of ותגזור אומר ויקם .
2) 2) He is talking about listening to them in matters that do NOT contradict Halacha, as he states "אף שהוא נגד השכל הפשוט... אף שהוא נגדה השכל" He does NOT mention listening when something is נגד התורה. An example would be, that if the Torah requires abusers to be reported, not doing so based on what a manhig says – without taking into consideration all the pertinent Halachos – carries no weight.
True Tzadikim do not act in a manner contradicting Halacha and do not tell others to do so (those areas where Chassidim do not seem to follow Halacha, such as regarding Zman Tefila, is because there are valid Mekoros that they rely on, although those Mikoros are not necessarily quoted in Shulchon Aruch). Here’s what the מאור ושמש says in Parshas Shoftim:
ואת מי יבחור לרבו אלופו ומיודעו כשיראה צדיק שהנהגותיו ביציאות ובביאתו הוא מתנהג על פי התורה הקדושה ואינו מיקל כלום חלילה הן בדאורייתא והן בדרבנן ובתוך לבו הוא יקד יקוד אש ביחודים..
When a Manhig tells someone to to do something that is obviously against Halacha, he is NOT allowed to listen, as the שיורי כנסת הגדולה חו"מ ס' ל"ד ס"ק י"א says, pertaining to transgressing a שבועה because of an erroeous Psak of a Chochom:
"אם סומך על הוראת חכם שאינו חייב לקיים הדבר אשר נשבע (ושוב נמצא שהחכם טעה בדין) לא מיפסל (מלהיות עד) מהרי"ק שורש י"ז. אמר המאסף הדברים ברורים דהיינו דוקא כשזה הסומך על הוראת החכם הוא עם הארץ וחושב שהחכם הורה כדין מיקרי שוגג אבל אם הוא תלמיד חכם ויודע ספר ויודע שהוראת החכם הוא שלא כדין, ואפילו אם הוא עם הארץ וברור לו שהחכם מורה לו שלא כדין הא ודאי מזיד מיקרי ומיפסיל. והוצרכתי לכתוב זה מפני שראיתי הרבה בני אדם יודעים את קונם ומתכוונים למרוד בו וסומכים על הוראת הכחם שהורה שלא כדין אף אל פי שיודעים בבירור שהחכם הורה שלא כדין", עכ"ל.
It can be argued that if a true Tzadik of the caliber that the Tiferes Shlomo is talking about says something that seems to contradict Halacha one IS permitted to listen, as it would be similar to בדוק לך כאליהו בהר הכרמל, where we would be obligated to listen to Elyahu who WAS permitted to be מתיר במות בשעת איסורן, because of his obvious צדקות.
A simplistic reading of the Tifers Shlomo may carry very dangerous connotations, while if we agree to the aforementioned Pshat, his words are quite understandable.
Ploni
Reb Daniel, maybe you could explain what he means in the last line. Because that pasuk is speaking specifically about believing in Moshe because the entire nation heard Hakodosh Baruch Hu speaking to Moshe and designating him as a Navi. That's why we believed in Moshe. Not because he was a Tzadik.
ReplyDelete