The Shpoler Zayde, traveling in a sled, safely crossed the Ros River on his way to the Bris. However, upon his return, the ice broke, endangering the lives of everyone riding in the sled. At this moment, the Zayde saw, that in Heaven, a terrible decree was proclaimed against him. He cried out to all the Chassidim present: “Whoever wishes to replace me, I promise him ”Olam Haba“ (the world to come)!” Whoever would give his life for the Shpoler Zayde would be guaranteed a place in the world to come.
“I wish to replace the Zayde!”, shouted his “Gabbai” (beadle) Yollek. And so it was; his “Gabbai” Yollek drowned and the Shpoler Zayde was spared.
“I wish to replace the Zayde!”, shouted his “Gabbai” (beadle) Yollek. And so it was; his “Gabbai” Yollek drowned and the Shpoler Zayde was spared.
Somewhat simaliar to the Belzer Rebbe, telling his Chassidim to stay in Euorope and perish in the Nazi inferno, but dissapearing to Tel Aviv himself.
ReplyDeleteThis is a story where the chassid is given a choice of saving his rebbe's life at the expense of his own - in exchange for Olam HaBah. Not sure what similarity you see
ReplyDeleteDT: Chaim saw no similarity. His bubbe maisa about the Belzer Rebbe was merely intended to attack Torah Jewry.
ReplyDeleteIn essence, the Belzer Rebbe couldn't actuallly pin them down and force them to stay. But he knew that his word was their command. Simaliar to this story of the Shpoler Zeide.
ReplyDeleteChaim you seem to be missing the point. The Shpoler Zeide asked for a volunteer.In the case of the Belzer he apparently felt that the Chassidim were not in danger. There was no exchange and the Belzer Rebbe was not asking any one to sacrifice their life to save his.
ReplyDeleteThe Belzer Rebbe didn't instruct anyone to not leave Europe. In fact, almost no one could get out of Europe even if they wanted to. It isn't like there were people who had tickets to America and were told to stay behind.
ReplyDeleteDaat Torah is right, the rebbe did not know that they were in danger.
ReplyDeleteR' Berish Shapiro (son of the late Naroler Rebbe from Bnei Brak who was himself close with the Belzer Rebbe) said over this story, and not like Chaim. When the people came to ask the Rebbe if they should leave he told them her was no need to run away. A while later (I don't remember if it was during the war or after), the people asked for an explanation, and he replied "anochi haster aster es panai, through the repetitive wording God is telling us that not only will there be hastaras panim from the hamon am, but from the leaders as well and they will misinform.
That ought to clear things up about this "buba maseh".
difficult halachic issue-it all seems to be built on the story of
ReplyDeleteשנים שיושבים ובקשו אויבים להרוג אחד מהם אם אחד תלמיד חכם והשני הדיוט מצוה להדיוט לומר הרגוני ולא חבירי כר' ראובן בן איצטרובלי שבקש שיהרגוהו ולא לר' עקיבא כי רבים היו צריכים לר' עקיבא.
Which iiuc appears for the first time in sefer hachasidim.
KT
Joel Rich
Any source for the story with the Shpolya zeide?
ReplyDeletehave a strong suspicion that this BUBE MAISA,is as true as the other of the tens of thousands REBBISHE fairy tales,for the life of me i could never understand ,how rational and inteligent people in the twenty first century could believe idiotic stories like this one.
ReplyDeleteCHAIM.S
First of all, I thought you didn't allow anonymous postings? While you may not agree with Chaim, his point was worth discussing.
ReplyDeleteRegarding the story, I found it upsetting and wondered why a rebbe would ask such a thing. Why did it seem that he valued his life above another? Why would he give away his olam haba? It was not an uplifting story, period.
And a person without emunas chachamin would be more likely to question the motives rather than blindly believe that this rebbe was doing some great chessed for his followers.
Anyway, I can't believe Daas Torah would allow someone to call another Jew the nivel peh above. I object and request that line be removed, and if you do have rules about posting anonymously, then delete it in it's entirety. (The one directly above is signed from Chaim.)
Oh, now I see that Chaim S proudly signed his nivel peh attack on Chaim. Sorry I missed that. It still deserves editing by Daas Torah, according to your rules.
ReplyDelete[...] when the Belzer rebbe,advised his chasidim to remain in Europe and not to emigrate to palestine or the U.S,that was before the nazi's took power,whereby no one could imagine the horrors that were to follow,and of course at that time the Belzer rebbe also remained in Europe,when the Rebbe was smuggled out of Europe,was already when the nazi's had occupied already all of europe,and had already murderred over 5,000,000 jews, and so to claim
ReplyDeletethat the Belzer rebbe advised everyone to stay,while he was fleeing,is nothing but a dirty filthy blood libel,[...]
CHAIM.S
This is not about the Belzer rebbe, and going off to discuss that is missing this point.
ReplyDeleteIs there any basis in Halacha which allow self sacrifice to save another's life? It is understandable if G-d forbid someone close is in danger.
For this we need to know the Halacha, the Torah, and the validity of the Rebbe's vision, if it is strong enough to change Halacha.
Did the gabbai stay in the sled and die or did he jump out and drown himself?
ReplyDeleteDaniel E. said...
ReplyDeleteDid the gabbai stay in the sled and die or did he jump out and drown himself?
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critical question - could not find the answer
History tells us that once a stupid rich man gets poor, he doesn't usually get rich again… unless he is Donald Trump.
ReplyDelete—John Green