very interesting - is the inference that publicly embarrassing someone (eg telling others about something this person might have done) is bad enough, but abuse is far more damaging and kal v'chomer worse than simple halbana?
I'm confused that RSZA says goya penuya is only takonas Chashmonaim. The Geonim learn it is worse than eishis ish of a Yid. The Rambam learns that the Torah creates issur niddah d'Oraysah just to punish the avaryan as a chayav kares. The Zohar is much scarier than that even.
very interesting - is the inference that publicly embarrassing someone (eg telling others about something this person might have done) is bad enough, but abuse is far more damaging and kal v'chomer worse than simple halbana? ===================== good question - there are two extremes - Tosfos and Meiri
On a related note Mishpacha had an editorial in discussing a recent murder and concluded that we all are murderers. Problem is that if these are literally considered murder than killing a person becomes less outrageous and trivialized
Kashya - I don't think the Rishonim took Rambam very seriously on this one - eg look at Ravad, Rashi etc.
Regardless of the status of a goya - the problem I mentioned is a very serious one. Since we hear of these stories on a daily basis, whether rabbanim, teachers, or regular "frum" people getting arrested for child abuse - it is an extremely serious problem. You cannot just "gezeira"away human psychology. That is the flaw of rabbinic Orthodoxy - interestingly Avor D'Rabi Nathan points out this problem in regards to Adam + Chava, and the "gezeira" they made for touching the tree. This preceded Freud by about 1700 years. If you repress a natural desire it will come back and bite in a worse way.
very interesting - is the inference that publicly embarrassing someone (eg telling others about something this person might have done) is bad enough, but abuse is far more damaging and kal v'chomer worse than simple halbana?
ReplyDeleteI'm confused that RSZA says goya penuya is only takonas Chashmonaim. The Geonim learn it is worse than eishis ish of a Yid. The Rambam learns that the Torah creates issur niddah d'Oraysah just to punish the avaryan as a chayav kares. The Zohar is much scarier than that even.
ReplyDeleteYou might want to look at the Rambam Commentary to the Mishna Sanhedrin 7:4
ReplyDeletevery interesting - is the inference that publicly embarrassing someone (eg telling others about something this person might have done) is bad enough, but abuse is far more damaging and kal v'chomer worse than simple halbana?
ReplyDelete=====================
good question - there are two extremes - Tosfos and Meiri
On a related note Mishpacha had an editorial in discussing a recent murder and concluded that we all are murderers. Problem is that if these are literally considered murder than killing a person becomes less outrageous and trivialized
Kashya:
ReplyDeletePerhaps having learned these scary texts, the Haredim feel safer with maasei S'dom amongst their own children.
Well, according to the Geonim, gay acts and forbidden relatives are even worse than shiksa.
ReplyDeleteKashya -
ReplyDeleteI don't think the Rishonim took Rambam very seriously on this one - eg look at Ravad, Rashi etc.
Regardless of the status of a goya - the problem I mentioned is a very serious one.
Since we hear of these stories on a daily basis, whether rabbanim, teachers, or regular "frum" people getting arrested for child abuse - it is an extremely serious problem.
You cannot just "gezeira"away human psychology. That is the flaw of rabbinic Orthodoxy - interestingly Avor D'Rabi Nathan points out this problem in regards to Adam + Chava, and the "gezeira" they made for touching the tree.
This preceded Freud by about 1700 years.
If you repress a natural desire it will come back and bite in a worse way.
But I'm sure Rebbi Nosson does not dispute the other Chazal that takanos were not made unless people can withstand the test.
ReplyDeleteAnd if you see the Zohar on goya, it is just as bad if not worse even if there is officially not kares.
ReplyDelete