Haaretz
Over half of Israeli men - 61 percent - do not consider forcing sex on an acquaintance as rape, a study conducted by Tel-Hai Academic College recently found. Moreover, 41 percent of Israeli women share that view
The study was conducted last fall by Dr. Avigail Moor, a clinical psychologist who specializes in treating victims of sexual violence.
Moor asked her respondents two main questions: The first was whether they believed forced sex with an acquaintance constitutes rape; the second was whether they felt forced sex with a stranger constitutes rape. Respondents were asked to provide a simple yes or no answer. [...]
Over half of Israeli men - 61 percent - do not consider forcing sex on an acquaintance as rape, a study conducted by Tel-Hai Academic College recently found. Moreover, 41 percent of Israeli women share that view
The study was conducted last fall by Dr. Avigail Moor, a clinical psychologist who specializes in treating victims of sexual violence.
Moor asked her respondents two main questions: The first was whether they believed forced sex with an acquaintance constitutes rape; the second was whether they felt forced sex with a stranger constitutes rape. Respondents were asked to provide a simple yes or no answer. [...]
Exactly what does "forced" mean? If a couple is having problems in their relationship and the husband tells the wife "I don't want to get divorced, but I need intimacy to be part of the marriage or I will have to leave", is that force? Is that rape? I don't believe so, even if the woman really can't stand the guy and the last thing she wants to do is be intimate with him. I understand that if the husband says "you'd better do this or I will hurt you" - that is different. But if a woman chooses to stay in a relationship with the ground rules being that she has to be intimate, that's her choice and that is CERTAINLY not rape, in my opinion.
ReplyDeleteWithout reading the study itself, it's hard to say anything about the research, but I am certain that the media presentation of the research is sensationalized.
ReplyDeleteAs "Anonymous" points out above, one of the critical issues is the exact meaning of "forced sex". Does it mean actual coercion (physical force, blackmail, etc.) or does it include social or emotional pressure (threatening to end the relationship, fear of seeming "uncool", etc.)?
There are several problems with the latter broader definition, especially in the context of criminal law. Perhaps the biggest is that the broader definition creates the very real possibility that a man could be "guilty" of "rape" without even being aware of it. Even worse, in many cases, the determination as to whether a crime was committed would be essentially after the fact, when the "victim" regrets the sexual act and blames the "rapist" for "pressuring" her into it.
Legally speaking, this is an absurd position, even when speaking about casual relationships, as it effectively equates seduction with rape (a common position among the radical feminists). It becomes utter madness when applied within a marriage, where, in the absence of an explicit protest, sexual consent is usually taken as a given.
There is currently a strong movement to broaden the definition of rape to include any situation where a woman might feel that she was pressured into a sexual act. The article above is reflective of this kind of thinking.
Anonymous asks Exactly what does "forced" mean?
ReplyDeleteLike when Bill Clinton evaded the question by asking "depends on what the definition of 'is', is"
This is why all my daughters will be learning a martial art.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous says I don't want to get divorced, but I need intimacy to be part of the marriage or I will have to leave - if a woman chooses to stay in a relationship with the ground rules being that she has to be intimate, that's her choice and that is CERTAINLY not rape, in my opinion.
ReplyDeleteThis sounds like he is making his wife into his personal prostitute or concubine.
The RAMBAM explicitly states and rules not like you, that there has to be love and willingness between a married couple. What kind of children would come from such a marriage? What kind of "kavanos" would they have while in bed together? Would Hashem be a "third partner" to such a couple? What you say sounds terrible and horrible and could bring a woman to depression and even suicide and destroy a family.
Very puzzling. The first comment (1/18 1:33am) was very obviously not meant to describe a lechatchila situation. The question presented is, is this rape? Unfortunately, not every relationship is full of warmth, regardless of whether the fault lies with the husband or wife. The fact is that most rabbonim (and most frum therapists I have spoken with) will tell a wife that if she wants to stay married it is her duty to be intimate with her husband nonetheless. Is that rape? Ridiculous. If the wife is that unhappy she should ask for a divorce, but don't call it rape if she chooses to deal with it.
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately, not every relationship is full of warmth, regardless of whether the fault lies with the husband or wife.
ReplyDeleteThat is a churban, not a marriage. They should go for good couples therapy with a reputable therapist. Something is terribly wrong in the relationship.
The fact is that most rabbonim (and most frum therapists I have spoken with) will tell a wife that if she wants to stay married it is her duty to be intimate with her husband nonetheless. Is that rape? Ridiculous.
It does not make the rabbonim "right" or excuse the failure of the therapists to really help this couple trapped with each other in a living hell.
If the wife is that unhappy she should ask for a divorce, but don't call it rape if she chooses to deal with it.
A husband who has to blackmail his wife into being with him is worse than a rapist. He is an emotional abuser and manipulator. The woman is a victim and she needs to ask herself why she lets herself stay in such a sick relationship. Women crave intimacy and love and closeness more than men who can survive on a "diet" of raw sex while women have breakdowns or start looking for love from strangers, and then she will get blamed when it's the fault of the husband. Si yeah, he's not "raping" her, he's subjecting her to sadistic "Chinese torture" instead.
Something tells me you've never been married.
ReplyDelete"Jewish Info", your comments are pouring a surprising amount of vitriol on the theoretical husband in the case described by Anonymous. The only thing we know about this hapless fellow is that, for some unstated reason, his wife doesn't desire intimacy with him. On that basis alone, you state that this theoretical husband is "emotional abuser and manipulator" and "worse than a rapist".
ReplyDeleteYour comment that, "Women crave intimacy and love and closeness more than men who can survive on a "diet" of raw sex," also indicates a rather extreme antipathy towards men in general, that appears to be impairing your ability to discuss this issue rationally.
The fact is that most marriages are imperfect, and many married people experience diminished sexual desire for their spouses at some point. The fact that they chose to have marital relations with their spouses even when they have no actual sexual interest does not make them into "prostitutes or concubines", nor does it make their spouses into rapists (or worse).
Anonymous said...Something tells me you've never been married.
ReplyDeleteSomething tells me that you don't have a clue about a happy marriage based on Judaism and Jewish traditions that treasures the feelings and happiness of the wife, that you are inflicting serious emotional damage and abuse on your wife, quite possibly being sadistic and even a psychopath without feelings because you can't tell the difference between being a good Jewish husband a pimp. If so, something tells me you should go for therapy, or if you are not Jewish become a monk to better yourself. According to Halacha certainly its jurisprudence you may be in violation of it and would be OBLIGATED to give your wife a get because it is assur to do be "married" the way you FANTASIZE it can be done because you are describing and defending a nightmare not a marriage.
LazerA said...The only thing we know about this hapless fellow is that, for some unstated reason, his wife doesn't desire intimacy with him.
ReplyDeleteSomething is obviously seriously wrong if this is a long-term situation. If she has a low libido she can go to a doctor and he will prescribe medications. If she hates him or is turned off by him, the questions is why, it has to be something serious. She may have a love-interest (male or female) outside the marriage. Who knows. He is not just "hapless" either.
Your comment indicates a rather extreme antipathy towards men in general, that appears to be impairing your ability to discuss this issue rationally.
Nonsense. The situation here is of a guy giving his wife an ultimatum of take it or leave it. She is being given no choice. The husband is dictating the terms but any true marriage should and must be a 50-50 deal.
The fact is that most marriages are imperfect.
Speak for yourself. How can you generalize and say that about "most" marriages. People don't put themselves down. It's like saying "no one is perfect" while that is true no one thinks of themselves as "imperfect" everyone thinks of themselves "as the best" and deserving the best.
and many married people experience diminished sexual desire for their spouses at some point.
He wasn't speaking about only at one point, he was speaking about a permanent situation.
The fact that they chose to have marital relations with their spouses even when they have no actual sexual interest
Go find out the Halacha. A husband is not supposed to and must not force or manipulate his wife if she is not in the mood. If she is HAPPY to oblige that is another thing. But if she is TURNED OFF and says "go away" then NO MEANS NO, and to violate that is to act like a rapist or worse because he has an unfair advantage over his own wife to manipulate and blackmail her even more, as this guy is doing.
does not make them into "prostitutes or concubines", nor does it make their spouses into rapists (or worse
So what are they then? Model husbands or sickos?