Of interest is the question of believing that a child molester will stop because he said he did teshuva or that he claims he really is sorry it won't happen again. Apparently most studies assume that molesters are liars or incapable of controlling themselves. Are Jewish molesters different or are promises made to the rabbical authorites more likely to be kept?
Update: I came across an interresting Meiri that insists that the victim needs to forgive him before we can assume he has done teshuva.
Meiri (Berachos 19a): Concerning a talmid chachom one is not allowed to suspected him of sinning even if you saw him sin at night it is prohibited to suspect that he will continue sinning in the day. Rather one is required to assume that he has repented from sinning by the day. When do we make this assumption of repentance? It is only for sins between him and G-d but for those sins against other men you can assume he will continue sinning until it is known that the one he has sinned against has forgiven him
Great question, and one that many make a mistake with.
ReplyDeleteThe yetzer hara an abuser has for a child is strange and warped. An orthodox man with such a yetzer hara is even stranger than the "average" abuser. He leads a double life. He is a professional deceiver. He can never be believed.
That is not to say some orthodox abusers, with therapy, manage to stop, and control themselves even for the balance of their lives. The difficulty is that many don't. Therefore, society, after considering the risk, needs to paint a bright-line rule. Orthodox molesters can never be trusted. The risk is too great. Child sexual abuse is tantamount to murder. Sex abusers cannot be allowed to work near children.
Ayn apitropis l'arayos.
Elliot Pasik
Why doesn't the halakha of kabdehuh v'choshdehu apply? I can honor a person who did sincere teshuva for such an aveirah (given the nature of the aveirah, there had better be some real, hard tears and making amends to the victims, no easy task) but I don't have to trust him.
ReplyDeletePractically, this means such a person (who does complete teshuvah) could get an aliyah in shul, but he should not be trusted with children.
Tal Benschar wrote: Why doesn't the halakha of kabdehuh v'choshdehu apply?
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Derech Eretz (Pirkei Ben Azzai 3:3): A person should always view others with suspicion as if they were thieves but nevertheless honor them as if they were Rabban Gamliel. Once R’ Yehoshua had a guest to whom he wined and dined and then took him up to the roof and removed the ladder after him. That guest arose at midnight and stole all of his posts property and wrapped them in a bundle. However when he tried to leave he fell since there was no ladder and was severely injured. In the morning R’ Yehoshua found him. He rebuked the guest and told him that he that that is what happens to people like him. The thief replied that he hadn’t realized the ladder had been removed. R’ Yehoshua told the thief that he had been under suspicion from the beginning. That is why R’ Yehoshua said that all people should be viewed with suspicion that they are thieves but nevertheless they should be honored as Rabban Gamliel.
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We see this principle applies to the general population that we have no prior knowledge that they are criminals. However criminals and those who have strong lusts or severe problems are not included.
Thus we don't trust them and we don't honor them.
Your question comes up as whether and how does a transgressor regain his original state?
Isn't the Meiri a davar poshut?
ReplyDeleteI can relate personally that one of my rebbeim who today is a rosh yeshiva somewhere once did a big avlah to me. It's not clear how much of it was manipulated by outside parties. R' Zelig Epstein ztl later told me that in his opinion there is a tviah on him even for allowing the avlah to happen.
Some time later when R' Zelig was not reachable after quadruple bypass surgery, I asked an alter talmid chochom who is a well known baal musser type if I am allowed to not invite the rebbe to my chassuna. The psak was that my rebbe should have apologized and since he did not, I am not mechuyev to invite him and there will be no kpeidah min Hashomoyim on me.
Isn't the Meiri a davar poshut?
ReplyDeleteI can relate personally that one of my rebbeim who today is a rosh yeshiva somewhere once did a big avlah to me. It's not clear how much of it was manipulated by outside parties. R' Zelig Epstein ztl later told me that in his opinion there is a tviah on him even for allowing the avlah to happen.
Some time later when R' Zelig was not reachable after quadruple bypass surgery, I asked an alter talmid chochom who is a well known baal musser type if I am allowed to not invite the rebbe to my chassuna. The psak was that my rebbe should have apologized and since he did not, I am not mechuyev to invite him and there will be no kpeidah min Hashomoyim on me.
Lakewooder said...
ReplyDeleteIsn't the Meiri a davar poshut?
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I think it should be but it is not - especially dealing with the issue of child abuse.
Even the comments on this gemora in Berachos don't make this distinction.
Chofetz Chaim (Lashon Harah 4:4):…If he is a talmid chachom and G-d fearing man who was temporarily overcome by his lust, it would definitely be a great sin to publicize his sin and it is prohibited to even suspect that he is continuing to sin because he certainly has repented. This is true even if his lust overcame him on one occasion because he is surely greatly upset at the sin. This is stated by our Sages (Berachos 19a), If you see a talmid chachom sin at night – do not suspect him of repeating that sin in the day because he definitely has repented.
Wouldn't this clearly being talking about a victimless crime -- where the lust was acted out between consenting adults (including a prostitute).
ReplyDeleteWhereas an act of rape or attack or sex with a minor would need mechilla from the victim.