The following quotes are from my sefer Daas Torah. The essence of the problem is that we need to find kosher worms. There is no problem if in addition to kosher worms we found unkosher ones - that is not a contradiction of 2000 years of tradition from Chazal , Rishonin and Achronim and Shulchan Aruch. It is a problem if we now say that science has determined that there is no such thing as a kosher worm and there never was.
Rivash(487): We are not to decide any of the laws of our Torah and its commandments based on the opinions of scientists and doctors. Because if we were to believe their words, then Torah is not from Heaven—Heaven forbid! They accept this mistaken view because of their false proofs. If you were to determine whether an animal is treyfa based on medical knowledge you would conclude that the majority of the defective animals to be kosher while some that were declared kosher would be declared defective… However, we in fact do not rely on the judgment of medicine but rather on the words of our Sages even if they tell us that right is left. That is because our Sages have received the truth and the interpretations of the mitzvos by tradition generation after generation from Moshe. We do not believe the Greek or Arab scholars whose only source of validation is from their own theory and experimentation which is open to many possible errors—as opposed to our Sages…
Klaussenberger Rebbe:Halacha fromTradition not Science" (Shefa Chaim 6:456): Concerning the assertion of chemists, it is clear that they have absolutely no relevance in matters which are part of our tradition from our sages. The many halachos which don’t have a clear rational basis are not left to the decisions of the scientists. For example, whether a piece of meat which was salted before washing whether it helps to wash it and resalt it? Similarly whether salting requires waiting the amount of time of traveling a mil… Whatever we do concerning these halachos of kashrus are determined solely by the traditions, we have received from our Sages—and not according to the understanding of the scientists…. Even though the Aruch HaShulchan (Yoreh Deah 92:11) expresses surprise that the Halacha seems not in accord to physical reality, all the rest of the poskim view that only the Torah view determines Halacha for us. This is true even when our understanding of nature contradicts the tradition. Therefore whenever the scientists establish something which contradicts our tradition, their views are totally irrelevant against what the view of the sages of our holy true Torah have said… Think careful about this because there are many halachos that our Sages established based on their understanding of nature such as the laws of nidah. If one constantly evaluates these halachos on the basis of the views of the scientists—the Torah would be nullified… Due to our many sins this is the degeneration of our times that the views of the scientists are viewed as more correct than the views of our holy Torah and they desert the springs of living water for dry wells. It is as clear as the sun that the scientists have no part or relevance determining the nature of G‑d’s Torah and they are not to be relied upon concerning matters of Halacha and kashrus. Their investigations do not lead to discovering the truth of Torah and that which they imagine should not determined what we do. It is enough if we rely on them in medical matters which the poskim approve.
Michtav M'Eliyahu(4:355): When Rav Dessler was asked concerning certain halachos that the reason that had been given for them is not in accord with modern science... [for example] (3) This that it is permitted to kill lice because they don't reproduce sexually (Shabbos 107b. Rav Dessler stated that concerning these and those like them—the Halacha never changes even though the reason doesn't make sense to us. We are to hold on to the Halacha with two hands whether to be strict or lenient [not like the Pachad Yitzchok]. The reason for this is that the Halacha was known to Chazal by tradition through the generations and they also knew things through experience.... The important point is that the reasoning they gave did not create the Halacha but rather the reverse was true—the Halacha created the reasoning. The reasoning given in the gemora is not the only possible explanation. If they happened to give explanations on occasion which were only true according to the science of their day—we have an obligation to search out alternative explanations that will justify the Halacha according to modern science.... Even if one cannot find a convincing explanation—we must still believe with perfect faith that the Halacha is still true and we hope that G‑d will enlighten us with an appropriate explanation.
Igros Moshe(Y.D. 2:70): That which is not visible to the naked eye it is not possible that previous generations after the completion of the gemora would know about it. Only the Sages of the Talmud (Chazal), with their kabbala and their sevara, could possibly know about it. We are obligated to believe that everything that they say is true. In contrast, after the completion of the Talmud even the Gaonim...
Rivash(487): We are not to decide any of the laws of our Torah and its commandments based on the opinions of scientists and doctors. Because if we were to believe their words, then Torah is not from Heaven—Heaven forbid! They accept this mistaken view because of their false proofs. If you were to determine whether an animal is treyfa based on medical knowledge you would conclude that the majority of the defective animals to be kosher while some that were declared kosher would be declared defective… However, we in fact do not rely on the judgment of medicine but rather on the words of our Sages even if they tell us that right is left. That is because our Sages have received the truth and the interpretations of the mitzvos by tradition generation after generation from Moshe. We do not believe the Greek or Arab scholars whose only source of validation is from their own theory and experimentation which is open to many possible errors—as opposed to our Sages…
Klaussenberger Rebbe:Halacha fromTradition not Science" (Shefa Chaim 6:456): Concerning the assertion of chemists, it is clear that they have absolutely no relevance in matters which are part of our tradition from our sages. The many halachos which don’t have a clear rational basis are not left to the decisions of the scientists. For example, whether a piece of meat which was salted before washing whether it helps to wash it and resalt it? Similarly whether salting requires waiting the amount of time of traveling a mil… Whatever we do concerning these halachos of kashrus are determined solely by the traditions, we have received from our Sages—and not according to the understanding of the scientists…. Even though the Aruch HaShulchan (Yoreh Deah 92:11) expresses surprise that the Halacha seems not in accord to physical reality, all the rest of the poskim view that only the Torah view determines Halacha for us. This is true even when our understanding of nature contradicts the tradition. Therefore whenever the scientists establish something which contradicts our tradition, their views are totally irrelevant against what the view of the sages of our holy true Torah have said… Think careful about this because there are many halachos that our Sages established based on their understanding of nature such as the laws of nidah. If one constantly evaluates these halachos on the basis of the views of the scientists—the Torah would be nullified… Due to our many sins this is the degeneration of our times that the views of the scientists are viewed as more correct than the views of our holy Torah and they desert the springs of living water for dry wells. It is as clear as the sun that the scientists have no part or relevance determining the nature of G‑d’s Torah and they are not to be relied upon concerning matters of Halacha and kashrus. Their investigations do not lead to discovering the truth of Torah and that which they imagine should not determined what we do. It is enough if we rely on them in medical matters which the poskim approve.
Michtav M'Eliyahu(4:355): When Rav Dessler was asked concerning certain halachos that the reason that had been given for them is not in accord with modern science... [for example] (3) This that it is permitted to kill lice because they don't reproduce sexually (Shabbos 107b. Rav Dessler stated that concerning these and those like them—the Halacha never changes even though the reason doesn't make sense to us. We are to hold on to the Halacha with two hands whether to be strict or lenient [not like the Pachad Yitzchok]. The reason for this is that the Halacha was known to Chazal by tradition through the generations and they also knew things through experience.... The important point is that the reasoning they gave did not create the Halacha but rather the reverse was true—the Halacha created the reasoning. The reasoning given in the gemora is not the only possible explanation. If they happened to give explanations on occasion which were only true according to the science of their day—we have an obligation to search out alternative explanations that will justify the Halacha according to modern science.... Even if one cannot find a convincing explanation—we must still believe with perfect faith that the Halacha is still true and we hope that G‑d will enlighten us with an appropriate explanation.
Igros Moshe(Y.D. 2:70): That which is not visible to the naked eye it is not possible that previous generations after the completion of the gemora would know about it. Only the Sages of the Talmud (Chazal), with their kabbala and their sevara, could possibly know about it. We are obligated to believe that everything that they say is true. In contrast, after the completion of the Talmud even the Gaonim...
According to the Shita of Rav Dessler, what is the point of studying Gemara rather than the codes? How do we decide whether, frex, plastic needs to be toiveled since we only have the rules Chazal left us and their explanations are merely agadata?
ReplyDelete"The essence of the problem is that we need to find kosher worms. There is no problem if in addition to kosher worms we found unkosher ones - that is not a contradiction of 2000 years of tradition from Chazal , Rishonin and Achronim and Shulchan Aruch."
ReplyDeleteI agree with the main point of your article, in the words of the Rivosh you quoted, "We are not to decide any of the laws of our Torah and its commandments based on the opinions of scientists and doctors. Because if we were to believe their words, then Torah is not from Heaven—Heaven forbid!" Certainly if there is any conflict between Torah and Science we must disregard the opinions and proofs of the scientists and follow our Mesorah. However, I fail to understand how finding kosher worms will help the issue. Are you suggesting that according to "Da'as Torah" the worms in the fish must be Kosher? I'm pretty sure that it's impossible to find "kosher worms" [this, not from a scientific prospective but from a Torah perspective]. However, if I am not mistaken, there are poskim who say that the Torah didn't make rulings regarding that which is not visible to the naked eye, and the worms may therefore be permissible (neither "Treif" nor "kosher", but simply not subject to these definitions, which were only made regarding things which are visible to the eye) this might be the topic of discussion in the Igrot Moshe, you refer to.
Scientists actually don't say that Chazal were wrong on this subject. I'm working on an article on the subject, but b'kitzur, scientists agree that the majority of worms found in a fish's flesh were not alive or were not visible when they entered the fish, so they never were in the category of "haromeses al ha'aretz."
ReplyDeleteIt's fascinating that R' Moshe makes such a clean break between the nature of knowledge among the Rabbis before the closing of the Gemara and subsequent generations.
ReplyDeleteSounds like something interesting to look into over Shavous.
Why don't you report R' Sternbuch's position on THIS ISSUE like you do about everything else even if it doesn't fit with your worldview?
ReplyDelete