Our Navy commandos fell right into the hands of the Gaza mission members. A few minutes before the takeover attempt aboard the Marmara got underway, the operation commander was told that 20 people were waiting on the deck where a helicopter was to deploy the first team of the elite Flotilla 13 unit. The original plan was to disembark on the top deck, and from there rush to the vessel’s bridge and order the Marmara’s captain to stop.
Officials estimated that passengers will show slight resistance, and possibly minor violence; for that reason, the operation’s commander decided to bring the helicopter directly above the top deck. The first rope that soldiers used in order to descend down to the ship was wrested away by activists, most of them Turks, and tied to an antenna with the hopes of bringing the chopper down. However, Flotilla 13 fighters decided to carry on.
Navy commandoes slid down to the vessel one by one, yet then the unexpected occurred: The passengers that awaited them on the deck pulled out bats, clubs, and slingshots with glass marbles, assaulting each soldier as he disembarked. The fighters were nabbed one by one and were beaten up badly, yet they attempted to fight back. [...]
Guest Post by Bartley Kulp
http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/385ec082b509e76c41256739003e636d/7694fe2016f347e1c125641f002d49ce
Howard Beel said...
"True. I'm trying to understand how it is that attacking commandos end up the victims here. Ships at sea, international waters, helicopters dropping attackers/commandos/pirates on to the deck, and when those on deck take up arms to defend themselves, we call it an ambush or an attack and we're to sympathize with these poor IDF soldiers' who were attacked out of nowhere!
Sheer chutzpah and idiocy to paint the IDF as victims in this case."
-----------------------------------
The ignorance in this group is astounding. The sum total of every bodies knowledge here regarding international law seems to come from listening to Noam Chomsky (may his name be obliterated) lectures.
The San Remo Manual of 1994 regarding the usage of force on the seas clearly delineates the right of a sovereign nation to enforce a naval blockade on its enemy in order to prevent materials that would assist the enemy from getting through. It also specifically stipulates such actions on the high seas which means international waters.
Yes there are stipulations to ensure the right of delivery for humanitarian aid and equipment. Israel has always allowed the passage of such equipment to be transferred into Gaza after inspecting it. They also offered to assist in the delivery of the contents that the flotilla was carrying after inspecting it in Ashdod. That was not good enough for the activists who wanted have their pri madona photo opportunity.
That is just tough crap for them! There is no provision in international law to give them the legal right to break a blockade in order to make a pretentious moral point.
A far as the protecting themselves from pirates remark, They were warned before hand in accordance with international law about the blockade and that they could be boarded if they continued. The activists even acknowledged a few days beforehand that they were aware of the possibility of being boarded.
The next time that they pull that stunt, I think that the navy should cripple their boats rather than board them. Then they should call the Turkish navy and tell them to tow them away.
For information from the ICRC regarding armed conflicts at sea use this link
Who cares. zionist vs. palestinian. 2 peas in a pod.
ReplyDeleteTrue. I'm trying to understand how it is that attacking commandos end up the victims here. Ships at sea, international waters, helicopters dropping attackers/commandos/pirates on to the deck, and when those on deck take up arms to defend themselves, we call it an ambush or an attack and we're to sympathize with these poor IDF soldiers' who were attacked out of nowhere!
ReplyDeleteSheer chutzpah and idiocy to paint the IDF as victims in this case.
This incident shows how much the world hates Israel.
ReplyDeleteThe Israeli Jewish boys, that Rav Shmuelevitz z"l always prayed for are being made prey for the wild beasts of the Left and the Islamists.
ReplyDeleteThe evil and ridiculous rules of engagement to protect guilty civilians from innocent soldiers is outrageous.
Howard Beel said...
ReplyDelete"True. I'm trying to understand how it is that attacking commandos end up the victims here. Ships at sea, international waters, helicopters dropping attackers/commandos/pirates on to the deck, and when those on deck take up arms to defend themselves, we call it an ambush or an attack and we're to sympathize with these poor IDF soldiers' who were attacked out of nowhere!
Sheer chutzpah and idiocy to paint the IDF as victims in this case."
-----------------------------------
The ignorance in this group is astounding. The sum total of every bodies knowledge here regarding international law seems to come from listening to Noam Chomsky (may his name be obliterated) lectures.
The San Remo Manual of 1994 regarding the usage of force on the seas clearly delineates the right of a sovereign nation to enforce a naval blockade on its enemy in order to prevent materials that would assist the enemy from getting through. It also specifically stipulates such actions on the high seas which means international waters.
Yes there are stipulations to ensure the right of delivery for humanitarian aid and equipment. Israel has always allowed the passage of such equipment to be transferred into Gaza after inspecting it. They also offered to assist in the delivery of the contents that the flotilla was carrying after inspecting it in Ashdod. That was not good enough for the activists who wanted have their pri madona photo opportunity.
That is just tough crap for them! There is no provision in international law to give them the legal right to break a blockade in order to make a pretentious moral point.
A far as the protecting themselves from pirates remark, They were warned before hand in accordance with international law about the blockade and that they could be boarded if they continued. The activists even acknowledged a few days beforehand that they were aware of the possibility of being boarded.
The next time that they pull that stunt, I think that the navy should cripple their boats rather than board them. Then they should call the Turkish navy and tell them to tow them away.
For information from the ICRC regarding armed conflicts at sea use this link.
http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/385ec082b509e76c41256739003e636d/7694fe2016f347e1c125641f002d49ce
Check it out, check it outers.
Howard Beel said...
ReplyDelete"True. I'm trying to understand how it is that attacking commandos end up the victims here. Ships at sea, international waters, helicopters dropping attackers/commandos/pirates on to the deck, and when those on deck take up arms to defend themselves, we call it an ambush or an attack and we're to sympathize with these poor IDF soldiers' who were attacked out of nowhere!
Sheer chutzpah and idiocy to paint the IDF as victims in this case."
-----------------------------------
The ignorance in this group is astounding. The sum total of every bodies knowledge here regarding international law seems to come from listening to Noam Chomsky (may his name be obliterated) lectures.
The San Remo Manual of 1994 regarding the usage of force on the seas clearly delineates the right of a sovereign nation to enforce a naval blockade on its enemy in order to prevent materials that would assist the enemy from getting through. It also specifically stipulates such actions on the high seas which means international waters.
Yes there are stipulations to ensure the right of delivery for humanitarian aid and equipment. Israel has always allowed the passage of such equipment to be transferred into Gaza after inspecting it. They also offered to assist in the delivery of the contents that the flotilla was carrying after inspecting it in Ashdod. That was not good enough for the activists who wanted have their pri madona photo opportunity.
That is just tough crap for them! There is no provision in international law to give them the legal right to break a blockade in order to make a pretentious moral point.
A far as the protecting themselves from pirates remark, They were warned before hand in accordance with international law about the blockade and that they could be boarded if they continued. The activists even acknowledged a few days beforehand that they were aware of the possibility of being boarded.
The next time that they pull that stunt, I think that the navy should cripple their boats rather than board them. Then they should call the Turkish navy and tell them to tow them away.
For information from the ICRC regarding armed conflicts at sea use this link.
http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/385ec082b509e76c41256739003e636d/7694fe2016f347e1c125641f002d49ce
Check it out, check it outers.
Feivel said:
ReplyDeleteWho cares. zionist vs. palestinian. 2 peas in a pod.
To Feivel, I can think of many reasons to care, but here's one simple difference-- Come to any "zionist" community in Israel and you'll get invited for a shabbat meal; try a palestinian town, and you'll be lucky to get out alive...
@ howard beel:
ReplyDeleteYes, the commandos are victims. You should be davening for them.
Here we have Israel, a country that was attacked by the arabs when the British pulled out of Palestine and was attacked by a much larger force that tried to obliterate them.
They won anyway, and the arabs refused to accept the losers back into their own lands, telling them that they must succeed or remain without a country. Read the book, "From Time Immemorial".
Then the PR campaign of the arabs (due to the genius of Arafat and Nasser) painted the refugees as "palestinians", which led to international pressure on Israel to allow terrorists to form their own country in return for peace in Israel. Instead, the new country used its independent status to launch more sophisticated attacks against Israeli civilians.
Finally, Israel introduced a blockade of Gaza in an attempt to stop the flow of weapons and illegal money to terrorists. Any country that would have tried to crash that blockade would have been attacked by fighter jets, missiles and possibly torpedoes. Threatening the embargo would have been considered an act of war.
So you think that, because the ones attempting to dissolve Israel's sovereign right to defend itself called themselves civilians, yet deny Israel the right to clear whatever and whoever was to arrive in gaza, that Israel should be condemned for maintaining the embargo by force?
Israel did not "attack" with helicopters. They used helicopters to lower commandos down on ropes. The "civilians" should have immediately considered themselves boarded and gone completely docile. Instead, they acted as if it were at some kind of riot/demonstration. This was not a "demonstration". It was an attempt to negate a defense policy that Israel enacted to prevent terrorist attacks. These "activists" were actually committing an act of war.
Yes, it was in international waters. That is usually where a sea battle occurs.
Civilians attacking governments have never had any rights. Yet these people consider themselves above governments, above the international community, and show outrage that a country chose to enforce its publicized policy.
Many "activists" no doubt were recruited by professionals for their ability to elicit sympathy. They are karbonos. That blame does not go to Israel.
Don't you realize that you are helping push Israel into a corner? Israel will defend itself. It has nuclear capabilities (that antisemites are attempting to remove). If Israel is told unequivocally to yield to civilian pressure and lose their ability for self determination, my guess is that eventually they will give up trying to please the international community becomes the international militia becomes a cohesive force.
There are two more ships now on the way to gaza. I think Israel should warn the international community that they will consider the ships' occupants to be hostiles and will act accordingly this time.
Actually, I am constantly being invited for meals by my Arab neighbors. They tell me that they buy only kosher meat also, which I know is true because they always tell me when lamb is on sale at the butcher.
ReplyDeleteI have to give excuses such as the "low carb" diet for diabetes (which is true) as to why I only have tea and some fruit.
But my Arab neighbors are so gregariously friendly, that one lady even offered to learn to cook "low carb" just to host me.
And BTW, I have never even been invited inside any of my Jewish neighbors' homes except for one. All of my Jewish neighbors have, however had many Shabbat and Yom Tov meals at my house over the years.
If I showed up at a "zionist" community in Israel, I would not expect to be invited for a Shabbat meal because I look too much like the "enemy" and most frum Jews I meet on the streets won't even return my greetings.
If I say "Gut Shabbos", they still cower in terror because they think I am an Arab terrorist infiltrating their community.
Last time I visited a Young Israel, I was asked to sit in a secure area reserved for the maids. When I protested that I was Jewish and there to "daven", I was still denied entry to the sanctuary.
This has been happening to me whenever I visit and Ashkenazic synagogue since I was a teen. One time, back in the early 80s, I was denied entry to the Ezrat Nashim on Yom Tov. I could not make it home and I had called ahead and spoke to the Rabbi who told me to just come. I asked the shomeret who was denying me entry to please bring me a Humash and I will translate and explain the Rashi on any Passuk to prove that I am Jewish.
I was still denied entry to the shul because I did not "look Jewish". They told me I looked like a Puerto Rican, which I do, but that is besides the point. I left, crying.
The same thing happens to my daughter. It happens to her in Brooklyn, NJ and FL, anytime she visits an Ashk. synagogue for a simcha.
So, I do not believe that I would be invited to Shabbat dinner in any Zionist town in Israel. I think that I would be lucky to get out alive.
Rachel Shabi wrote a book on this topic called "We Look Like the Enemy"
http://www.amazon.com/We-Look-Like-Enemy-Israels/dp/0802715729
I posted this a couple of hours ago but I do not see it listed. I'll try again:
ReplyDelete@ howard beel:
Yes, the commandos are victims. You should be davening for them.
Here we have Israel, a country that was attacked by the arabs when the British pulled out of Palestine and was attacked by a much larger force that tried to obliterate them.
They won anyway, and the arabs refused to accept the losers back into their own lands, telling them that they must succeed or remain without a country. Read the book, "From Time Immemorial".
Then the PR campaign of the arabs (due to the genius of Arafat and Nasser) painted the refugees as "palestinians", which led to international pressure on Israel to allow terrorists to form their own country in return for peace in Israel. Instead, the new country used its independent status to launch more sophisticated attacks against Israeli civilians.
Finally, Israel introduced a blockade of Gaza in an attempt to stop the flow of weapons and illegal money to terrorists. Any country that would have tried to crash that blockade would have been attacked by fighter jets, missiles and possibly torpedoes. Threatening the embargo would have been considered an act of war.
So you think that, because the ones attempting to dissolve Israel's sovereign right to defend itself called themselves civilians, yet deny Israel the right to clear whatever and whoever was to arrive in gaza, that Israel should be condemned for maintaining the embargo by force?
Israel did not "attack" with helicopters. They used helicopters to lower commandos down on ropes. The "civilians" should have immediately considered themselves boarded and gone completely docile. Instead, they acted as if it were at some kind of riot/demonstration. This was not a "demonstration". It was an attempt to negate a defense policy that Israel enacted to prevent terrorist attacks. These "activists" were actually committing an act of war.
Yes, it was in international waters. That is usually where a sea battle occurs.
Civilians attacking governments have never had any rights. Yet these people consider themselves above governments, above the international community, and show outrage that a country chose to enforce its publicized policy.
Many "activists" no doubt were recruited by professionals for their ability to elicit sympathy. They are karbonos. That blame does not go to Israel.
Don't you realize that you are helping push Israel into a corner? Israel will defend itself. It has nuclear capabilities (that antisemites are attempting to remove). If Israel is told unequivocally to yield to civilian pressure and lose their ability for self determination, my guess is that eventually they will give up trying to please the international community becomes the international militia becomes a cohesive force.
There are two more ships now on the way to gaza. I think Israel should warn the international community that they will consider the ships' occupants to be hostiles and will act accordingly this time.
According to the San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea, 12 June 1994:
ReplyDeleteSECTION V : NEUTRAL MERCHANT VESSELS AND CIVIL AIRCRAFT
Neutral merchant vessels
67. Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States (ie Turkey) may not be attacked unless they:
(a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband
This was why Israel released the video of the confiscated "weapons". The "weapons" seen in the video are tools including well used utility knives, gas masks, safety flares and a bottle of cleaning solution.
Incidentally, the only weapons used against the IDF soldiers were the two that were grabbed from the soldiers themselves.
(b) engage in belligerent acts on behalf of the enemy;
(c) act as auxiliaries to the enemy s armed forces;
(d) are incorporated into or assist the enemy s intelligence system;
(e) sail under convoy of enemy warships or military aircraft; or
(f) otherwise make an effective contribution to the enemy s military action
NOTE: the San Remo Manual is not a treaty, but considered by the ICRC to be reflective of customary law.
Israel knew that these were not military ships and that they were carrying only humanitarian aid.
There was plenty of advance notice and surveillance during the loading of the ships.
The timing, shortly before PM Netanyahu was scheduled to meet and mend fences with the White House could not have been worse. Also both the US and the UK were on Bank Holidays millions of people were literally glued to the tube watching the video clips.
Aside from the obvious sin of denying humanitarian aid to 1.7 million civilians who are literally jailed in Gaza, the PR carnage of this incident is devastating.
I do not wish to belittle the suffering of the men, women and children in Gaza, 80 percent of whom are hungry and lacking medical care, adequate shelter and other necessities by bringing this up, chas v'shalom but I do believe that it is suicidal for Israel to diss the entire world so thoroughly.
I have to wonder if PM Netanyahu is an undercover agent for Iran who is systematically destroying Israel from the inside out.
(Iran's answer to Eli Cohen).
To Jersey girl:
ReplyDeleteAside from the obvious sin of denying humanitarian aid to 1.7 million civilians who are literally jailed in Gaza...
If I say "Gut Shabbos", they still cower in terror because they think I am an Arab terrorist infiltrating their community...
Makes sense to me based on just your position on the security of Jews. Also, I know many sephardic Jews, including Puerto Ricans in fact, who are welcomed to shuls. It makes me wonder how you dress and act. It is clear that you like to make an impact.
There was plenty of advance notice and surveillance during the loading of the ships.
Israel knew that these were not military ships and that they were carrying only humanitarian aid.
First of all, Israel did not inspect the ships or vet the people. To say others (such as Turkey, which has recently been under the influence of antisemites) may have done that is completely beside the point. Israel has a right to protect itself and enforce its publicized policies.
Secondly, you attack bullet a, but the suspicions of b, c, d and f apply. More so since Israel offered to bring cleared materiel into gaza for them, and had warned that the flotilla would be stopped.
It sure sounds to me like you want Jew hating terrorists to have the means to kill Jews.
Jersey Girl,
ReplyDeleteWhile you voice a thoughtful perspective on the matter, doesn't refusing to stop (i.e., running the "barricade") constitute an aggressive act. Suppose I say the my Red Cross ambulance has been well inspected by your people before the trip, and I'm on a humanitarian mission so righteous vital that I will not be diverted under any circumstances, can I just run a police checkpoint after being hailed several times and then cry about being forcibly pulled over? Israel has the right to stop & inspect any ship headed to supply its dissidents. While I agree with you that its PR approach needs a lot of work, the act was still so manifestly opportunistic & underhanded.
Thank you for sharing the personal testimonies above, btw.
Jersey Girl said...
ReplyDelete"If I say "Gut Shabbos", they still cower in terror because they think I am an Arab terrorist infiltrating their community."
No, no, I think you are Jewish. Then again so is Noam Chomsky, Norman Finklestein and Peter Falk.
Jersey Girl said...
ReplyDelete"If I say "Gut Shabbos", they still cower in terror because they think I am an Arab terrorist infiltrating their community."
No, no, I think you are Jewish. Then again so is Noam Chomsky, Norman Finklestein and Peter Falk.
"Incidentally, the only weapons used against the IDF soldiers were the two that were grabbed from the soldiers themselves. "
ReplyDeleteYou must not have seen the videos of soldiers getting stabbed with knives and beaten with metal rods.
I would put in the links, but Rabbi E has already posted one of them in this very post. There is another video which shows a soldier get stabbed from behind by an islamic peace terrorist. Grab some popcorn, Jersey girl. Watch and learn.
Want me to post link to the stabbing?
"NOTE: the San Remo Manual is not a treaty, but considered by the ICRC to be reflective of customary law."
ReplyDeleteLawyers say it's binding but amateur pro-arabist/pro-islamist PR people such as yourself (actually, I don't know if anyone aside from you actually says it, but I'll assume so) say it's 'just customary law.'
I'll go with the lawyers.
"diss the entire world"
ReplyDeleteMan, and here I thought we wouldn't get enough hyperbole with this meal! Oh for crying out loud...
The organizers stated beforehand their intention was not just to 'bring aid to gaza' in a humanitarian effort, but the main purpose was to "break the blockade" Israel has over those waters. The goal is obvious. If they make an affront to Israel's vetting process and Israel lacks the fortitude to actually stop them, they hope that this precedent will open up the waters to other ships to roam freely and bring goods to gaza freely. Thus Israel intended to maintain the status quo, not so much because of this particular ship, which contained a few antisemitic animals and meaningless utility knives, but because of the great danger of FUTURE SHIPS in which actual weapons shipments will be procured, should the blockade actually fall apart and ships roam freely to gaza. The proxies of Iran are waiting to supply by ships as this is much easier and more efficient than the underground tunnel system. Those missiles will be landing in Israeli population centers.
ReplyDeleteAnd so Israel exerted its legal rights in this scenario to demand identification etc and to reroute the ship where it will pass through with proper security checks. Whatever procedure needs to be done to assert Israel's de facto control over what enters gaza and to maintain the blockade to prevent weapons shipments.
Thus the degree of "danger" of this particular ship or flotilla was completely irrelevant. Even if it did contain antisemitic animals who were shouting "Remember Khaibar," etc during the journey. (link to video:
By failing (or willfully avoiding doing so) to see this event in its context and by ignoring the openly-stated intentions of the peace terrorists organizing the flotilla, Jersey girl creates an opening for herself to make the outlandish contortions needed to defend her muslim/arab/turk/any-enemy-of-israel friends. But even then her statements are ridiculous.
reading the comments of folks like Jersey Girl, Feivish, and Howard Beal reminds me of Bob Grant's question when someone in Lakewood called his show at the height of the Crown Heights riot. "Where do you people [i.e. Jews] get these creeps from?"
ReplyDeleteTalmid of Rabbi T.....what if Israel's vetting process is to deny basic humanitarian supplies that are needed by the human beings who live in Gaza?
ReplyDeleteIf the tables were turned and it was a foreign government doing to Jews in Gaza what we Jews are doing to Arabs in Gaza, you would say it's heroic for Jews to break the blockade and inhuman for the Arabs to stop us from delivering basic supplies, supplies that are supposed to be let through regularly anyway, but aren't.
Meanwhile, the attack happened in international waters. Blockades do not apply in international waters. It was an illegal boarding unless it occurred in Israeli waters, which it did not. Even still, when launching the commando style raid, it was clearly no "coast guard" boarding....soldiers were dropping in with the intent to kill. Those who were the target of that type of attack were well within their rights to defend themselves. The ship could have been easily disabled without the hand to hand attack.
Sad to see Jews use the same language and propaganda tools and tricks that have been used against us for ages.
The lowlifes of history vilified us by calling us "animals" and referring to us in other ways as incorrigible law breakers and non-humans. So, I congratulate you all on proving that we are not at all better than any of our previous persecutors.
"It makes me wonder how you dress and act. "
ReplyDeleteBeing a Torah observant Jewish woman, I wear necklines that cover the collarbone and sleeves to the wrist. I wear ankle length skirts so that I don't have to wear stockings in the Florida heat.
I usually cover my hair with a scarf.
I try to greet each person I meet politely and respectfully in his/her preferred language (I speak Spanish, French, English, Hebrew (Sephardic dialect), Ladino, Judeo Arabic and some Yiddish.
Anyway, most of the Jewish people I meet think that I am an Arab.
I realize that this is partly because of my Semitic facial features and partly because I follow the Psak of Sephardic Rabbis who say that a woman should cover her hair with a scarf or a hat instead of a wig.
Also, today most of the Orthodox Jewish women I meet both here and in Brooklyn are wearing their skirts just to the knee and also with either clear or no stockings.
I was raised with the belief that it is necessary to cover the leg above the mid calf completely with some opaque material so this is how I dress.
That being said, I do realize that I dress more closely to the Muslim standard of what is modest for women than to what has become the Jewish norm. I have not changed over the years, it is just that it seems that what is considered acceptable for Orthodox women (ie, tight fitting, short skirts, no stockings and the type of wigs) seems to have changed.
So yes, most of the people who meet me on the street, whether they are Jewish or not think that I am Muslim. I have also been stopped and searched by the Police who tell me it is because I look Muslim and that my appearance and presence in a crowded place is upsetting people.
I do not see any difference between Muslims who say "Remember Khaibur" and Jewish settlers who say "Remember Jericho" or the "Yehoshua nation" when attacking Arab villages.
Both stories are more or less the same as every man, woman and child was massacred with the exception of Rehab and Safiya, both of whom became righteous converts who joined the nations of the conquistadors.
"Havei dan kol adam l'kaf zechuth,"
Pirkei Avoth 1:6
In English, "Judge every person favorably".
Please note the use of the word "adam" and not "Yehudi".
This Mishnah applies not only to our fellow Jews but to all people. This is how I learned it from my parents, teachers and Rabbis as a child.
And while one does not have to invent unreasonable explanations to justify behavior that is clearly wrong, our Mishna is teaching us about behavior that has multiple interpretations, with the positive interpretation being equal to the negative one.
This is the Jewish way, to "Love mercy, seek justice and walk humbly with your G-d" Micah 6:8.
These were the first words that the teacher taught us when I entered Jewish school at age 5.
Pichol: "Yes, the commandos are victims. You should be davening for them."
ReplyDeleteI don't think that Howard Beel knows what davening is. Neither does he know international law. When a ship announces it wants to break a blockade, and refuses inspection, it can be boarded. However, argumentation with anti-semites is futile.
>>This is the Jewish way, to "Love mercy, seek justice and walk humbly with your G-d" Micah 6:8.
ReplyDeleteThese were the first words that the teacher taught us when I entered Jewish school at age 5.<<
Yeah, right.
"Talmid of Rabbi T.....what if Israel's vetting process is to deny basic humanitarian supplies that are needed by the human beings who live in Gaza?"
ReplyDeleteIsrael sends daily shipments of similar such supplies to Gaza, and this is all documented. So only a moonbat conspiracy theorist could believe what you wrote. Let's use our common sense in light of known documented facts - what an idea!
"I do not see any difference between Muslims who say "Remember Khaibur" and Jewish settlers who say "Remember Jericho" or the "Yehoshua nation" when attacking Arab villages.
ReplyDeleteBoth stories are more or less the same as every man, woman and child was massacred with the exception of Rehab and Safiya, both of whom became righteous converts who joined the nations of the conquistadors."
Are you really equating the book of Joshua and the conquest at Jericho therein, approved by the Torah, Tanach and all Jewish sages as mandated by Hashem and just conquest, with lehavdil elef havdalot Muhammad's slaughtering of a Jewish village in the Arabian peninsula?!
This is precisely where your confusion stems from.
As to your mention of the "evil untermenschen scapegoat," the settlers, this has nothing to do with this story. Settlers were not the ones boarding the ship in navy attire. Unless you believe, like the Arabs do, that every Israeli is a settler. In any case, if you want to say that a village being attacked has a right to defend itself, that only bolsters my point that Israel had a right to defend itself against these animals coming to do us harm.
"Are you really equating the book of Joshua and the conquest at Jericho therein, approved by the Torah, Tanach and all Jewish sages as mandated by Hashem and just conquest, with lehavdil elef havdalot Muhammad's slaughtering of a Jewish village in the Arabian peninsula?!"
ReplyDeleteWhat if the Arabic equivalent of MEMRI did the translations of our texts and broadcast them all over the Muslim world?
1. Pesah - Jews celebrate the murder of Egyptians and their plundering of Egyptian property.
2. Purim- Jews rejoice over the destruction of Persians and party and eat sweets to celebrate the hanging of Persian leaders.
3. Hannukkah - Jews rejoice at the destruction of Syria (Assyria is NOT present day Syria BTW, but let's just go with the out of context MEMRI type mistranslation).
A massacre at Khaibar, if it happened, happened 1300 years ago.
According to Abdur-Rahman Ibn Laylah (abt 701 CE)who wrote in the name of Anas Ibn Malik (who was a contemporary companion of Mohammed), "the Jews come out, and when they saw him they said, “Muhammad! By Allah! Muhammad and his army!”
Then Mohammed said “Khaibar is destroyed, for Allah had destroyed it."
The story of the conquest of Khaibar by the hand of G-d is very similar to Hashem's destroying Jericho with the blast of the shofar.
It should not be surprising when the stories in the Quran and the Hadith so closely resemble those in our own Holy texts because much of what became Islam's most sacred texts was transcribed by Jewish scribes.
The difference between you and me (among many) here is that you are playing dumb. We know why they are invoking this event, however 1300 years old it may be. We can clearly see what they mean by chanting and shouting it, and what kind of atmosphere they are trying to drum up by recalling this event. And this says much about the motivations behind this flotilla. There is no question that the intention is not only to approve what happened then but to relate it to the present day reality of 'da evil jooos' of Israel who according to them deserve the same fate as in the case of Khaibar.
ReplyDeleteIf it was the time of the Iran-Iraq war, and there were a bunch of Jews on board a ship heading into the Gulf, chanting "Death to Persians the modern-day Hamanites" and then refusing to identify themselves when inquired upon by Iranian navy ships, while on these ships carrying aid for the Iraqi enemy Iran is currently (at that time) at war with, and intending to break Iran's control over the waters there (hypothetically speaking), then you'd have something to say here (and in that case it wouldn't surprise me if the Iranians boarded the ship if the Jewish crew also said curses over the radio to the Persians in response like the Turks did to the Israelis in this case - they bring it on themselves in that case for the navy to come board the ship and make sure nothing is afoul.
That a Jew celebrates Purim or Pesah has no relevance here. Why do you relate them?
As to your "drash" on the koran, the people on the ship are not chanting that Allah will return, they chanted oh Jews the army of muhammad will return. And while the Jewish conquest certainly has help from above, I think that anyone who really thinks "God fought" and the army didn't actually pick up weapons and go to war and kill people, has a very childish and incorrect belief system. Similarly lehavdil elef havdalot, the conquest in the Koran really involved soldiers/hordes beheading and murdering people, whether the Muslims think they had God's help in wiping out Jews or not.