Dr. Marc Shapiro has a fascinating post - which includes a discussion of the Grossman execution and Tropper at the end
SeforimBlog
SeforimBlog
[...] During the discussions about the Grossman execution, I looked at some of the haredi websites (until the comments made me sick). What I found interesting was the incredible level of ignorance of most of the writers, all of whom had been in yeshiva and many of whom had studied there for years. They were able to declare that a murderer can’t be executed unless he was observed by two kosher witnesses and was given warning, which they thought settled matters. Had these people known a bit of responsa literature, there would have understood how things worked in the real world, and especially what was done in the days of the rishonim. Do these people think that if a guy stood up in shul and opened fire with a machine gun, killing 20 people, that a Jewish court couldn’t execute him because he was never given a warning? Let’s continue with R. Liebes:[...]
What is Shapiro's halachic source for his contention?
ReplyDeleteUntil he can answer that, his opinion is of little or no value.
Actually, if you read the Gemara in Sanhedrin the issue is discussed.
ReplyDeleteThere seem to be two parallel legal systems in Jewish law. The famous one is the one administered by the Sanhedrin and, indeed, a person who stood up in shul and suddenly let fly with an Uzi could not receive the death penalty since there was no proper warning or acknowledgement.
It seems, after finishing the relevant sections, that the Sanhedrin was almost a keep-busy project for the chachamim on it. Yes, they could have their trials and arguments, etc but no one seriously expected them to find anyone guilty. They set up the system so they couldn't.
However, the Gemara does discuss ways of punishing people who are clearly guilty. Sometimes it's done by rabbinical order. Several instances appear in which a known criminal is simply ordered executed by a rabbinical figure. In other cases, they were put into prison and fed barley and water until their insides burst. Their final resort was the king's court where, unburdened by the minutiae of the Sanhedrin, it was much easier to get a conviction.
So sorry, Shapiro is quite right on this one.
"Had these people known a bit of responsa literature, there would have understood how things worked in the real world, and especially what was done in the days of the rishonim."
ReplyDeleteWhat responsa? Where responsa? Which reponsa?
Why such vague references to "responsa"? Sources please.
Garnel, Shapiro is alleging it was like this "in the days of the Rishonim." Yet her offers NO example(s).
ReplyDelete