JPost
Rabbi Mordechai Elon had sexual relations with male students in the past, a rabbinical forum that works to prevent sexual abuse in the national-religious sector said in a statement on Wednesday
The Takana forum held an emergency meeting Tuesday night to discuss the allegations facing Elon, following an announcement they posted Monday demanding Elon step down from all rabbinical, teaching and community responsibilities, warning he is a threat to the public.
Elon admitted to the acts during the emergency meeting, Rabbi Yuval Cherlow, a member of Takana told Army Radio Wednesday, adding that the rabbi's confession is documented in the forum's protocol.[...]
Rabbi Mordechai Elon had sexual relations with male students in the past, a rabbinical forum that works to prevent sexual abuse in the national-religious sector said in a statement on Wednesday
The Takana forum held an emergency meeting Tuesday night to discuss the allegations facing Elon, following an announcement they posted Monday demanding Elon step down from all rabbinical, teaching and community responsibilities, warning he is a threat to the public.
Elon admitted to the acts during the emergency meeting, Rabbi Yuval Cherlow, a member of Takana told Army Radio Wednesday, adding that the rabbi's confession is documented in the forum's protocol.[...]
This man was a wise charismatic charming Rosh Yeshiva. Why didn't he get help for his craving for perversions? He doesn't come from a cloistered world of ultra-orthodoxy where therapy is viewed with suspicion, he could have saved himself and his family from all of this.
ReplyDeleteAnd who knows if the rumor mill would ever have got going if not if his name being floated at one time as a Chief Rabbi of Jerusalem
I think this story is important, because we see here that it's not a chareidi issue. Regardless of your flavor of Orthodoxy, the story appears to play out the same:
ReplyDeleteStep 1: We try to keep it hush-hush and out of the media, ignoring the fact that our own secretive stop-gap measures fail to protect potential victims from the possibility is true.
Step 2: Then the opposition harps on how this is proof of how terrible yenem are. These people aren't necessarily listened to, because they are the people who spend 90% of the time saying the same about the same imagined flaws over and over.
Step 3: Finally, their complaint reaches the media, who has a field day both with the charges (they presume guilt) and with the cover-up.
-micha
micha,
ReplyDeleteWhat, in your view, would be a better system for the issues you raise in your previous comment?
If I knew, I would leave my day job and find a community leadership position.
ReplyDelete-micha
It is not a charedi only issue. It is not an Orthodox only issue.
ReplyDeleteThere is some background to why the Takana was set up.
Whilst I was living in Yerushalayim 10 years ago, and davening at r' Elon's shul, there were 2 high profile cases in Dati Leumi Yeshivot of abuse by Rosh yeshiva and another high level Rabbi.
In once case, at Netiv Meir tichon yeshiva, the Rosh was jailed for abuse.
The other was in Mercaz haRav.
The leadership then tried to cover up and hide evidence. The police nearly arrested 2 important figures for suppressing evidence - one of them, R' Druckman (who has bene onthis blog for other subjects too!).
The reports can be found on the awareness center website.
The Takana forum was set up in response to these tragic cases, precisely because of the failure to deal with the issues in the past.
So far, none of the students involved in the Elon case have submitted complaints to the police.
I believe that R' Lichtenstein and R' Sherlo have acted prudently. They have exiled Elon, and kept him in virtual house arrest, forbidding him to teach publicly or to work with kids.
That is actually more of a punishment than prison. he was rosh yeshiva of one of the top Dati Leumi yeshivot, and well known personality. Today he is nothing, and he is finished.
A personal note:
In the time I did know R' elon, I considered him to be a great Torah leader and tzadik.
I would go to his friday night Tish, where even Hassidim would come to hear him speak.
On Simchat Torah, it was the custom for him to lead Hakafato out inthe streets of Southe Jerusalem, in the neighbourhoods, old age homes and hospitals.
When this story broke, I was in total shock and denial. It was an absurd revelation.
At that moment, I could evenudnerstand how talmidim of Tropper could come to his defence, in spite of evidence.
While Tropper has a few dozen followers, Elon has thousands.
And, from a strict Torah perspective, Elon's alelged aveirot, are much more severe than Tropper's, at least in terms of the arayot.
This is a churban.
Daniel, I don't see why you headed the post with the word abuse. I do not see the article referring to allegations of abuse. For all we know, it was done with adults and with their consent. It was also said on the radio, here in israel, that there is no police investigation underway.
ReplyDeleteIt doesn't condone his actions, but it is very different from abuse
Micha,
ReplyDeletePerhaps, then, the current system is the best that can be done for the points you raised?
Abuse - in terms of preying on vulnerable students. He was a "yoetz" - ie a counsellor for Jews. Abuse of his postion and relationship with his students. Thats why he was banned from any activities and called a danger to the public.
ReplyDeleteSomething the rabbis could learn from Freud:
In psychoanalysis, the analyst has to have an ethical relshp with the analysand (patient).
Freud wrote that any phsyical/sexual/emotional relationship with the patient is both forbidden, and counterproductive.
Furthermore, any new analyst, before receiving "semicha", has to undergo analysis himself, in case he has some unresolved issues which he may take out on his patients!
Only a Hacham could come up with this. Today the rabbonim are acting in reverse - ie dealing with or covering up the problems once they come out - but the rabbis are not psychoanalysts!
Sunlight is the best disinfectant.
ReplyDeleteThe matters have to be resolved to predetermined levels.
Not every case must be given a public airing. That said, the public must be assured that the matters will be handled appropriately and without exception. Today, the olam in truth has no confidence in how abusers will be dealt with unless it is a matter of public record. The Brooklyn yeshiva hanholah that impeded efforts to rid a pedophile from their midst highlights and underscores the lack of trust, often unspoken, in our community.
The community must trust that abusers will be excised, without exception and that the abuser will not be allowed intoa position where he might re offend.
If the individual wishes to challenge the process, he is free to do so, with the understanding that at some point, the process will become public.
Eddie, you said-
ReplyDeleteToday the rabbonim are acting in reverse - ie dealing with or covering up the problems once they come out - but the rabbis are not psychoanalysts!
====================================
Absolutely true. That is why many rabbonim have enough sense to send people with serious issues to psychotherapists.
I can tell you with absolute certainty that much harm can come from those who insist on 'einmishin'.
As for Freud, his 'gadlus' (much of which he derived from his Jewish education and rabbonim he knew) stands to this day. Those who say otherwise don't really know him or his work.
He was the first to develop the organized study of the mind. He also was the first to apply scientific standards to the study of psychology.
As an aside, he also attributed Jewish trait if success to antisemitism. He believed the antisemites kept us 'sharp' and on edge, so that we never really fit in. Thus, we had to successful to to survive and thrive.
He also had an ongoing correspondence with the then Lubaviticher Rebbe, among others.
Freud is a fascinating figure.
Eddie said...
ReplyDelete....And, from a strict Torah perspective, Elon's alelged aveirot, are much more severe than Tropper's, at least in terms of the arayot...
-------------------------------------
i am not going to evaluate who is a bigger sinner..... as for troppers preferences for the fairer sex, well, lets just say its just that, a preference.
As a peer counselor who has worked
ReplyDeletewith who have been sexually abused,
i can tell you sometimes it takes year before someone comes forward to file a criminal complant.
ELON should also be investigated by the police for this exact thing.
He , in his position , as a rabbi can inflict alot of damage psychologically.
He should also be put into cherem aswell.
If There is any evidence of sexual
abuse, he should be prosecuted.
As for Freud, his 'gadlus' (much of which he derived from his Jewish education and rabbonim he knew) stands to this day. Those who say otherwise don't really know him or his work.
ReplyDelete===========
this is a gross mistapement. Frued was a brilliant person but he has been very destructive influence. Much of his theory has been either disproven or just impossible to confirm since he often predicts two opposite results at the same time.
His education was not very Jewish and he was obsessesed with idols.
I don't think he every cured anybody but wrote great cases histories.
Frum therapists are much to much influenced by this theories.
He himself was a menuval carrying on an affair with his sister in law
In sum, Freud is not anything to take pride in
There is a term used that covers th Allon affair.Clergy abuse.Although it is not considered a crime in most juridictions if it is between consenting adults it is definetly abuse. The person coming to see the clergyman may be in a very vulnerable postion.
ReplyDeleteYears ago I sought treatment wiht a psychaitrist who had freudian psychonalytic training.
Although I did not do tradtional analysis , he did utilize feudian concepts/theories in our work.
This psychaitrist was Jewish but not relgious.His home was glatt treif.But he was very muhc a Zionist and he would buy those oh so expensive books from Aarson publishers onJewish topics.
Many years later I learned that when he was ayoung psychiatist lving in Brooklyn the Lubavitcher Rebbe would send parents wiht their children to him.( He was a child psychiatrist.)
Yeasr ago rebeim in Americna Yeshivas for wahtever reason unknown to me drove Dodge Darts or Plymouth valiants.Although my therapist always had a seperate waiting room for peoples privacy I never went up to his ofice when I saw a Dart or Valiant.Over the years I saw many frum Jews including some of my rebbeim from elementary and high school come out of his offices sometimes wiht their wives.Sometimes just frum sheitl wearing women came out.
Today thank god there are plenty of frum therapists of all sorts.In those days there were few.
At no time did he ever attmept to discourage me from practicing relgion in any way that I saw fit.
Left something out if my previous post.
ReplyDeletei belive it wasa huge mistake made by Takanah 4 years ago when they rquired Elon to give up his positionand move to Migdal.
If they were willing to demand of him to give up his carear and move meaning that they had throughly investigated the facts they should have made the facts available to the public.
Every individual person hurt by Elon's actions since it was determined that he was a abuser should blame Takanah .
Takanah had an obligation to make it known that Elon was a abusive clergyman.
(Freud) himself was a menuval carrying on an affair with his sister in law
ReplyDelete---------------------------
Freud as person or theologist was a total apikorus, and he was an atheist who followed the Bible critics.
We must distinguish his field of psychology from his own personal life or views.
And yes, there is an ongoing debate within psychology as to the validity of his theories.
Some of his ideas actually came from Talmudic sources. eg somebody who questions a person's yichus, we must question his, is classic Freudian idea.
There is also some evidence that he studied kabbala.
He wrote case studies, but 100 years ago there were nto the same kind of clinical trials we have today. And curing things like homosexuality - that is not even a possibility in current psychology.
Regarding Elon - in Torah law, mishkav zachar is subject to death penalty.
A man having a mistress besides (or together) with his wife, as far as i know is not subject to death penalty.
Some of his ideas actually came from Talmudic sources. eg somebody who questions a person's yichus, we must question his, is classic Freudian idea.
ReplyDeleteThere is also some evidence that he studied kabbala.
===========
this is the conjecture of Pro. David Bakun. Freud never said he had studies or had been influenced by Jewish sources. Bakun said someone told him that Freud had a French translation of the Zohar. But please - it is ridiculous to assert that Freud's theories were derived from Talmud or Kabblala - most of it was associated with Greek mythology and idolatry.
The ikkar of this discussion isn't so much about Freud, but it is a fascinating discussion.
ReplyDeleteI have a halachic qn:
the brocho "haNoten M'Hachmato", when seeing a sage in secular knowledge - is this brocho allowed even if the sage is say an apikores, or menuval?
(eg if Freud was alive today, or someone like Noam Chomsky, or a gentile Hacham).
The similarities between Freud and what chazal had to say are to my mind because of two factors:
ReplyDelete1- While there are few true Freudians today, much of what he said was right. Compared to what existed before Freud, the differences between schools of psychology are minor.
2- He is a product of Jewish culture. This is bound to influence his choice of models for expressing the truth. As one example: You can be pretty alienated from Judaism and still retain the basic notion of a decider sitting between conflicting impulses, which at times becomes the seat of its own set of drives. Remove G-d and soul from the human condition, and nara"n collapses into super-ego, ego and id. IOW, Freud was an apostate, but his was a Jewish apostacy. He argued against the truths of our religion using our language and categories.
(BTW, R' Yisrael Salanter's formulation of non-conscious desires preceded Freud's writings on the matter.)
-micha
(BTW, R' Yisrael Salanter's formulation of non-conscious desires preceded Freud's writings on the matter.)
ReplyDelete-micha
-----------------------
as did Friedrich Nietzsche's :)
(BTW, R' Yisrael Salanter's formulation of non-conscious desires preceded Freud's writings on the matter.)
ReplyDelete===========
Freud did not discover the unconscious mind. It was a widespread obsession in the 19th century. Prof Willaim Whyte has a 900 page book the Discovery of the Unconscious Mind for those who want to know more.
DT-
ReplyDeleteWell, we finally disagree on something substantive!
In fairness, it bears recalling that Freud was also a product of his time and place. We are look at the world through very different eyes. It also bears recalling that although Freud was a maskil, he was not brought up unaffiliated. In his time, maskilim received a Jewish education, as opposed to our times where a Jewish education for non frum Jews is an afterthought at best. My point, which I should have made more clearly, was that Freud was not unaware of his background.
Onwards. Freud had great successes. However, he primarily wrote about his failures. He felt that would be most instructive.
Also, Micha is quite right. Freud remained bound to his identity as a Jew his whole life. As I noted, he did exchange correspondence with a number of Jewish leading figures, frum and non frum. Again, it bears recalling these were different times. Non frum Jews and assimilated Jews were not unaware of their identity.
In fact, most of his most important work has not been disproved. What has changed is society and culture. Freud made allowances for that. While his observations serve as a platform for a changing world, he noted some very basic truths. 'Ain Apitropus L’Arayos' is as applicable to today as as ever. Our understanding of ourselves and our world may have changed but the fundamental character of human nature has not.
The real issue today is the direction of the psychological arts has taken. 'Feel good' therapy has in many instances supplanted teh science and hard work necessary for change and insight'. Therapists want to be 'friends' and patients have become 'clients'. Said 'clients' believe they ought ti direct their own 'treatment'. PC has become the norm.
Most professions have their own language. Psychology does not and anyone who has ever been angry or depressed or even has an opinion believes they are equally as credible as a trained therapist.
This is all a part of the 'I'm OK, you're OK' feel good psychotherapy.
Well, it doesn't work. Therapy is hard and often painful. It takes a real collaboration between patient and therapist.
When successful, lives are changed and saved.
DT-
ReplyDeleteFreud never claimed all his work was original. He just brought disparate ideas to the fore and studied them scientifically. This had never been done before. Jung, Adler, et al, would never has been able to do what they did without Freud.
As for Whyte, he has his own agenda. He has made a career- and a lot of money- stating whatever one already knows. When all is said and done, Freud's place as a pioneer of psychological arts is unassailable.
This is all a part of the 'I'm OK, you're OK' feel good psychotherapy.
ReplyDeleteWell, it doesn't work. Therapy is hard and often painful. It takes a real collaboration between patient and therapist.
When successful, lives are changed and saved.
==============
In most cases the above is simply not true.
I have seen clients who have been in therapy for 10 years and I succeeded in resolving the issues in several sesson of cognitive therapy.
Freudian therapy is a way of life and belief system - not a cure.
There are definitely cases which require hard work - but for most reasons that people go to therapy it does not require years of hard work and huge investments of time and money.
Freud never claimed all his work was original. He just brought disparate ideas to the fore and studied them scientifically.
ReplyDelete=============
Freud did not study things scientifically. In fact most of what he did is inherently untestable because he predicted something and its opposite so it would be impossible to refute or support a theory.
In fact there were claims that only someone who believed in the Freudian system was qualified to test it!
DT-
ReplyDeleteOK, we'll pick this up later.
My id, ego and superego have to go now...
DT: I have seen clients who have been in therapy for 10 years and I succeeded in resolving the issues in several sesson of cognitive therapy.
ReplyDelete-------------------------
I read that CBT cannot deal with serious mental illness. What is your take on that R' Dr Eidensohn?
Has it been effective in issues of abuse, homosexuality for example? (cure)
For that matter, Kant also speaks of the klur and the dunkel (the lit and the dark) -- the same terms R' Yisrael used.
ReplyDeleteGrowing up: The thesis of "I'm OK, You're OK" is not "feel good psychotherapy".
Here's how I see it...
Freud said everything was about sex.
Adler (from where "I'm OK, You're OK" emerges) said it's all about ego.
And Frankel said it's all about meaning.
A gap between psychotherapy and mussar becomes obvious when you look at nisyonos. Psychotherapy is about helping the person become who they want to be. And therefore, problems in life are things to get resolved. Mussar is about becoming the person that Torah tells us Hashem made us to be. Nisyonos are growth situations, encounters with the Almighty.
My point about Frued is that no matter how much he did or didn't embrace his Jewish identity, it's still the ancestor of the worldview with which he was raised. And therefore there will be elements in common.
-micha
CBT is not designed for severe issues, and the stats show it has only a limited effectiveness. It works better with more common and minor problems like depression, anxiety, insomnia...
ReplyDeleteCBT has been successfully used to treat teenagers who have been abusive. The therapist OHEL used to use, who since set up a full-time practice in Lakewood after being invited by R' Matisyahu Solomon, has a CBT orientation. However, he deals in children, although both victims and perpetrators; not adults.
BTW, I think most O therapists tend toward CBT and related modalities of therapy. At least, that's my mother's opinion, and she's in the field (private practice in family therapy, and works/ed with CounterForce and the Yitty Leibel Hotline).
Speaking of R' Matisyahu Solomon, and getting back on topic... RMS said at a speech to the 2006 Agudah Convention: "Yes, I would say we do sweep under the carpet sometimes. You know what we sweep under the carpet? Not what we don't do; what we do. Do these people know how many times perpetrators have been dealt with? Do these people know to what extent one had to have the courage to stand up against public opinion in order to make sure to protect our children? The only thing is, that was swept under the carpet, because we protect human dignity...."
With all due respect, I see two errors in this statement:
1- The smaller one is that the typical sweaper isn't looking at human dignity, they're looking at the image of the frum community. Perhaps they truly believe they are acting to prevent chillul hasheim but in reality I think most of the attention is on communal embarassement -- not the One Who we represent.
2- The bigger problem is that the process is slow and imperfect. If it's silent, then there are people of whom we must be wary and from whom we must protect our children (even while we keep doubt about their actual guilt), who we simply don't know pose a danger.
A rabbi is canned from his job, but the community he moves to doesn't know that there is a real probability that he will use his authority to take advantage of emotionally needy women. That's the problem with "sweeping under the rug". If there is enough evidence to warrant firing him, then there has to be a qol to warn others.
-micha
The reason I brought Freud into the discussion was becasue he believed in analysing the analyst before he is allowed to practice.
ReplyDeleteI agree that to some degree, a rav will do this, ie see that the musmach is fit to serve the Kehilla. But there is obviosuly a link here. Today any meshugama can become a rav, by simply learning Shulchan Aruch. The unconscious or latent tendencies are not important. hence, a person in a positon of power will be under great temptation to abuse it.
If you jsut think about what is a pedophile's heaven? Itis a school or seminary. A yeshvia is unregualted, and not open to criticism . Look what happenend in the Mercaz harav case 10 years ago - the complainants were threatened (because they compained about another menuval rabbi) - so that they would never find a job or a shidduch.
So basically, in yeshiva, you can take it up the ---, and if you complain, you get another --- as well.
Micha-
ReplyDeleteYou misunderstood. I am foursquare against 'I'm OK, you're OK' type therapy. Not only does it not work, it is usually counter productive. That kind of therapy is 'feel good' therapy as well.
Now, you said. "Psychotherapy is about helping the person become who they want to be." That is not entirely accurate. The patient may come in wanting that but any therapist worth his salt will point the patient in the direction of 'who he needs to be or should be', predicated on his reality. For example, a tone deaf patient may be depressed because he can't get a recording contract. A good therapist will help him address his reality and find other, more appropriate and fulfilling outlets.
Mussar, it seems to me helps the individual realize his potential- and entirely different and far more elevated goal.
As for Freud you are right. Who is was cannot be excised from his work. The real debate is how much- or little- of his identity as a Jew is reflected in that work.
You know, it just occurred to me that a from blog on psychology and it's, history, hashkofoh and applications would be a dynamite idea.
Both you and Rav Eidensohn ought to consider that, or even a group blog including therapists. The varying ideas and back and forths would be fascinating.
DT-
ReplyDeleteI had no idea you were in 'the business!' You just made my day.
You have hit a nerve. In therapy, there is no one size fits all.
Some patients can see a therapist for years and get nowhere and then change therapists and see real progress in a very short time.
There are differences in various therapies to be sure.
Your last remark is most cogent and significant.
The vast majority do not require years of therapy. I should have been more precise. Analysis is a horse of different color and requires a very different approach, as you know.
Cognitive and behavioral therapies are in my way of thinking, the most effective for the vast majority of the olam.
can't trust anyone anymore
ReplyDeletehttp://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-EdContributors/Article.aspx?id=168973
Growing Up: If I understand you correctly, I know what kind of therapy you're against. I was just saying that despite the title "I'm OK, You're OK" isn't feel-good psychobabble. That particular book isn't an instance of what you describe. Rather, it has to do with the Adlerian school of therapy which centers on what I would call the proper balance of anavah and gaavah.
ReplyDeleteUnlike Freud and his fixation on taavah. Or Frankel and his notion that people aren't happy without goals to live for. (Those being the three Vienese Schools of Psychotherapy.)
You write: "For example, a tone deaf patient may be depressed because
he can't get a recording contract. A good therapist will help him
address his reality and find other, more appropriate and fulfilling
outlets." But that doesn't contradict my premise that ""Psychotherapy is about helping the person become who
they want to be." The therapist shows him that what he REALLY wants is happiness, not the contract, and that actually is obtainable.
Mussar is the pursuit of holiness. Psychology is the pursuit of happiness and ability to function. (Is that better?)
-micha
Micha,
ReplyDeleteobviously you know a fair bit about the field.
I wouldnt' say freud was 100% about Taavah. altho he had a life drive and death drive.
Nevertheless, this thread is on the post of a Rosh Yeshiva who had such a taavah for the assur - forbidden - that he destroyed everything he had; his name, reputation; talmidim; career; his family; his ideology, and his marriage.
His fanatic chassidim have even thrreatened members of the Takana forum! How insane! Noone from the "ultra orthodox" welt ever threatened R' Lichtenstein, it had to come from the dati leumi crowd!
Tropper - he was much more complex, in that he was a fixer, but he had an unsatiable appetite for power and corruption.
these two tragic cases, which cut across the entire Orthodox spectrum must tell us something is wrong, and it is about sexuality, which is diplaced, outside of the Torah governance.
Of course, inthe days of th eneviim, there was also serious sins in this field.
Psychoanalysis - I don't claim to be a panacea - but it may offer some modest insights. The other issue is if somebody wants to change. very few actualyl recognize their destructive behaviour patterns.
Micha-
ReplyDeleteAdler was a realist and pragmatist, first and foremost, so your read is correct. To me what is most interesting about Adler is his idea that the psychology of the individual and the community are inter related, a 'holistic' experience.
That said, 'I'm OK, your OK' became in practice something far different.
http://www.nrg.co.il/online/1/ART2/062/620.html?hp=1&loc=4&tmp=3821
ReplyDeleteR' Eliyahu tried to force Elon to leave Israel!
So where is the major outcry against this guy we heard when the fellow in question was Tropper?
ReplyDeleteWhy isn't the JBlogosphere lit on fire by this scandal?
Oh, he isn't Chareidi.
Umm, Dave, look around, the fire is happening right now.
ReplyDeleteYou're choosing to look at the chareidi cup as half empty and the dat le'umi cup as half full, and then contrasting the the two.
-micha
Umm, micha, nothing like Tropper. There may or may not be a fire on this in the jblogosphere, but it isn't nearly as huge. Despite the fact this scandal is FAR bigger. (Homosexuality amongst multiple Jews by someone with power over them VS. immorality by a Jew with a non-Jew.)
ReplyDeleteAdditionally, over here you actually have no trouble finding defenders for him in the JBlogosphre whereas with Tropper the defenders were few.
OVERALL the Takana group has made a new,courageous and important contribution to the Torah World.No longer,at least, in the Dati Leumi will evil, immoraland abuse behavior be tolerated.There will be 'no hiding under the rug.'They also went to the police and were told at that time by the attorney general that he had no grounds for criminal indictment.There was further refusal by the victims to come forward.
ReplyDeleteI hope this sets an examle for other sectors of the Torah World and for the entire Israeli sociey.
Dave,
ReplyDeleteI agree with you in that the sin is more heinous, ie homo is strictly punishable by death it he Torah, whereas troppo did disgusting things, but he was outdoen by Elon.
You are asking about blogosphere. The English speaking Torah world has a bunch of blogs, and they dealt with Tropper.
In Israel, if you look at the number of reports on this story (elon), and the number of Hebrew talkbacks, they are huge.
I don't know any Hebrew blogs as such,or if they are prominent in the Dati Leumi world - probably there are some, but I am not familiar with them.
Elon was a very big persponality, essentially he adopted the Rebbe style, he did a Tisch, he had thousands of chassidim. He was immensely popular. Tropper was not so popular, he had maybe a few dozen talmidim.
The Elon story broke only about 3 days ago. This has exploded, and the police are now investigating. So it is not a case of discrimination against haredim.
Anyone who is involved in DL world, will remember that these things have happened in the past - but previously the Rabbonim swept it under the carpet.
Takana forum is a revolution. They have been criticised for doing too much or too little.
R Lichtenstein shlita has had death threats!
And it has been at great cost to the Torah world to lose a prize Rosh Yeshiva.
I would venture to say that Tropper was small time relative to elon. He was insignificant and not a major Rav. This is not the time to make political capital on which derech is holier.
The torah forbids certain things, and changing the colour of one's kipa has no effect on our base desires.
Dave,
ReplyDeleteactually, your argument that there is no outcry against Elon comapred to tropper is totally the opposite of reality.
In the dati Leumi world, their Gedolim, who sit in the Takana, have all proclaimed a herem against Elon, they forbid him to hold any rabbinical post, and must not counsel anybody in private. R Mordecahi Eliyahu, even tried to expel this menuval form Eretz Yisrael.
On the other hand, the Haredi gedolim, who were until December, fully backing Tropper, have said very little if nothing at all. They have nto made any Takanot or Gezeirot against him, or called him anything bad.
They left it to the local Monsey Rabbonim to get their hands dirty.
So, actually, the DT Gedolim are more courageous in tackling their own problems, rather than being in denial.
I think now I understand what Chazal meant, "the greater the man, the greater the desire".
OTD article
ReplyDeletehttp://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,678264,00.html
Eddie: An anti-semitic article out of Germany.
ReplyDeleteWhat's the surprise?
R.Eidensohn your headline appears misleading.In fact Takana did go to the police,all the way up to the Attorney General.Takana was told that that there was no criminal capability of prosecution of R.Elon at that time.
ReplyDeleteTakana deserves much credit for dealing with a serious problem in society in general and to our sorrow also in the Torah community.
Josh said...
ReplyDeleteR.Eidensohn your headline appears misleading.In fact Takana did go to the police,all the way up to the Attorney General.Takana was told that that there was no criminal capability of prosecution of R.Elon at that time.
Takana deserves much credit for dealing with a serious problem in society in general and to our sorrow also in the Torah community.
============
Nope - they got an opinion from Mazuz that since there weren't any formal complaints they couldn't prosecute. The police work by a different standard - they want to investigate the facts and they in fact have started an investigation.
R.Eidensohn I am sorry to say you are playing with words now.Going to the Attorney General who prosecutes THESE CASES IS CERTAINLY DOING THEIR DUE DILIGENCE.The victims refused to come forward.
ReplyDeleteI await IY"H that all parts of the Torah world would act accordingly.
Josh Vs. DT
ReplyDeleteThere is still a lot of missing information in this case.
We do not know if he acted against Israeli civil law. The police do not yet have a case,but they are interested in pursuing it.
The rabbis said that the police would be the last resort, and that the victims had not complained to the police.
There is no evidence that Elon was a pedophile. If he is just a homo, then impsrioning him is not going to be very helpful. He is already in virtual prison, and the punishment he has had is probably worse than if he went to jail, and became a martyr to his chassidim.
http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3851491,00.html
ReplyDeletesplit in religious zionism, new Chassidim vs mitnagdim?
"Freud never claimed all his work was original. He just brought disparate ideas to the fore and studied them scientifically."
ReplyDeleteThere was nothing scientific about anything that Freud wrote. He simply had the brilliant idea of declaring that whatever he wrote was scientific. And the intellectually community of his time (and for 2 more generations) bought into his crap. He simply wrote what came into HIS head, no "scientific" basis whatsoever. In his time science was revered. In the classic Greek period there was no distinction between philosophy and what we now call science. No concrete basis for "scientific" statements - even those silly ones (we now understand) made by Aristotle. As time went on philosophy became personal opinion and science was honored. Freud found his entry card into the eternal pantheon by declaring that phsyco-etc was science. He was a fraud. His followers hitched a ride on the same wagon; they claimed what they did was also science - just varying somewhat from Freuds. But in many circles it is not yet politically correct to simply say the truth. It is called an "inferiorty complex" - with respect to those who actually do scence. So babble on
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3848990,00.html
ReplyDeleteR' Froman, "sit shiva for gays"
Actually, Rabbi E, the Attorney General surveyed the case and the evidence and then gave a personal recommendation/advice to the police to NOT prosecute the case. It wasn't the Takanah forum that told the police not to. It was Mazuz. They did not try to prevent the police from any account that has been published that I've seen.
ReplyDeleteThe police could have disregarded the A-G's advice, but they chose to take his advice. And certainly when a body acts against the wishes of its superior in a society like Israel's, there are political consequences. So that may have motivated the police's behavior in not opening an investigation and in listening to Mazuz. But clearly, the Takana forum brought this issue to the Attorney General Mazuz, and it was his recommendation not to investigate further, and the police made the decision to follow his advice.