The rationale that EJF justifies its existence is that it is producing "universally accepted conversions." So even if they engage in proselytization, bullying other beis dins as well as other shady practices but they claim that they at least have accomplished this important goal. Therefore even though they are covered with the overpowering stench of the Tropper scandal they insist that they should continue to exist. Rav Reuven Feinstein and other major rabbis clearly hold this view and other rabbis such as Rav Ahron Schecter, the Novominsker Rebbe -who is in Har Nof this Shabbos - and Rav Shmuel Kaminetsky - who should be visiting Har Nof soon - have remained silent in the face of these claims.
Rabbi Seth Farber has published a list of the conversion courts in the world that are accepted by the Israeli Rabbanut. You should compare this list with the list of EJF certified courts. While the list is not necessarily comprehensive it does raise a question with their claim.
I have been told that the conversion done by one EJF certified beis din is not automatically accepted by another certified EJF beis din. Even Rav Nachum Eisenstein said he doesn't automatically accept the conversion done by an EJF certified beis din.
EJF has never in fact claimed that their converts are automatically accepted by the Israeli Rabbinate. The simple resolution of this issue is for EJF is to produce a letter from the Israeli Rabbinute that says all EJF certified beis din's converts are automatically accepted. Until they produce such a letter it is fraud to claim their their converts are universally accepted.
Rabbi Seth Farber has published a list of the conversion courts in the world that are accepted by the Israeli Rabbanut. You should compare this list with the list of EJF certified courts. While the list is not necessarily comprehensive it does raise a question with their claim.
I have been told that the conversion done by one EJF certified beis din is not automatically accepted by another certified EJF beis din. Even Rav Nachum Eisenstein said he doesn't automatically accept the conversion done by an EJF certified beis din.
EJF has never in fact claimed that their converts are automatically accepted by the Israeli Rabbinate. The simple resolution of this issue is for EJF is to produce a letter from the Israeli Rabbinute that says all EJF certified beis din's converts are automatically accepted. Until they produce such a letter it is fraud to claim their their converts are universally accepted.
"Rabbi Seth Farber has published the list of all the conversion courts in the world that are accepted by the Israeli Rabbanut. "
ReplyDeleteThe blog does not say that it is THE list of ALL the conversion courts etc., it merely says it is A list of conversion courts.
I do not think that this list is exhaustive.
It simply lists chareidi Batei Din all over the world. Some of them do not even perform conversions.
If you take a close look, you will notice that many countries are not even mentionned on the list.
Therefore, the fact that a beith din is not on the list does not say anything.
... and the list is not at all up to date (and it also warns that this could be the case).
ReplyDeleteFor example, under "Zurich" it lists Rabbi Daniel Levi who left this world several years ago.
Perhaps we need to gather evidence that even these so caleld conversions by EJF were sham conversions, quickie conversions whcih do not even fulfil the minimum halachic criteria of the most lenient, let alone the Machmir criteria of HarAv Hagaon Elyashiv shlita., which EJF claim to be following.
ReplyDeleteRav Daniel Levy zal died in 2004.
ReplyDeleteThe prefix 01 for Zurich (as indicated in the phone numbers) has been invalid since april 2007.
So the list is not at all up to date.
The simple resolution of this issue is for EjF to produce a letter from the Israeli Rabbinute that says all EJF certified beis din's converts are automatically accepted.
ReplyDeleteThey have never made such a claim. Even Rav Nachum Eisenstein said he doesn't automatically accept the coversion of a EJF certified beis din.
Until they produce such a letter it is fraud that they make such an assertion.
Of course the Moetzes remains silent. They met about Tropper at the end of December but how could they come out against him when R' Shmuel Kaminetzky and R' Aron Schechter are Tropper supporters and recipient$?
ReplyDeleteThe current Moetzes also has a penchant for sweeping everyhing under the carpet in case anyone gets implicated or embarrassed.
Kolko
Margulies
Mondrowitz
Ohel
Pinter
Tropper
The silence is deafening.
The fraud is that rabbis do Tropper's bidding after receiving much appreciated cash and that Tropper cites psak halacha that was never issued by the Torah giants he quotes.
ReplyDelete"Rav Reuven Feinstein and other major rabbis clearly hold this view and other rabbis such as the Novaminsker Rebbe...and Rav Shmuel Kaminetsky...have remained silent in the face of these claims."
ReplyDeleteNeither the Novominsker Rebbe (Rav Yakov Perlow) who has the title "Rosh Agudas Yisroel" nor Rav Shmuel Kaminetsky nor Rav Dovid Feinstein who are all on the Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah of Agudas Yisroel of America have the last word there.
The main one who has the final say and the most sway in the American Agudah is Rav Aaron Schechter of Yeshiva Rabbi Chaim Berlin in Brooklyn, who has always had a steady stream of Tropper's talmidim come to his yeshiva and is known to think very highly of Tropper and has always spoken in support of EJF.
Until such time as Rav Aaron Schechter can be approached and convinced that Tropper and EJF need to be entirely shut down for the sake of Klal Yisroel because the Chillul Hashem of Tropper's scandals is only getting worse with time like a festering untreated cancer, the problem will go on indefinitely and Tropper will feel he has the backing to keep on going in whatever way he can and EJF will feel it does not have to respond or cave in to the universal opposition to itself that is has managed to engender across the Orthodox and Charedi world, especially in light of Tropper's forced resignation due to the public revelations of his secret sex-for-conversions deals.
I looked up that reference in Kitzur Shulchan Aruch the other day when it was mentioned. The Kitzur says that the chait hasod is the worst avayreh in the Torah!
ReplyDeleteHow does Monsey let a depraved sicko like Tropper call himself rosh yeshiva? Why haven't they driven him from town like they did to Moish Finkel?
Vancouver, Canada’s beis din is also accepted by the Rabbenut, but is not on this list. Seth Farber’s list is not exhaustive. There could be others also.
ReplyDeleteLadies and Gentlemen of the Jewry,
ReplyDeleteThe content of acts of zimri tropper are not something worthy of mentioning, even if it can be defiend halachically as Chet hasod.
The complexity is that it is a compound problem. If an individual, be he hedyot or rav, transgressed privately, it would be his private sin. This has so many part to it, and the important and relevant part is that
a) he was lauded by his rabbinical colleagues as a Gaon and Mavhir of halacha.
b) was backed by Gedolim, and by Vaads that were started by Gedolim, but not managed by Gedolim
c) It was alleged that this shameful organisation was run by Yorei Shomoyim. Again, the detqails of tapes, videos, cds , movies are not of interest. It is enough that this man and his ilk were labelled "yorei shomoyim".
d) the so-called halachic gaavah - arrogance was betrayed by the barter of certificates for xxx.
e) The only controversial point I will add - this is only my opinion - is that Daas Torah has suffered a great bizayon, and the Daas torah world really needs to reassess their claims that they are always right.
>How does Monsey let a depraved sicko like Tropper call himself rosh yeshiva? Why haven't they driven him from town like they did to Moish Finkel?<
ReplyDeleteThe difference obviously is that Finkel had a shred of decency left in him.
finkel decent..ha machti es harabim, ain tshuva it says in my gemora...
ReplyDeleteYou're all crazy with this conversion business. Why make life so complicated. Why do conversions if the whole system is so disorganized. What G-d would say about this out of control conversion mess that's going on right now. Crazy, crazy
ReplyDeleteOne question is rabbi Yisrael Gornish or rabbi Belsky's conversions automatically accepted in Israel? I did not see him on the list and he has a good reputation?
ReplyDeleteBoth rabbis are converting my friend and I and I would like to know whether we should change beis din. This is really scary. All converting rabbis you talk to say they're recognized in Israel and you find out later they're not. First, Rabbi Bomzer, then Rabbi Fun, then Rabbi Lookstein who is reliable? This conversion business is too much. Why not tell the truth to candidates from the get go? I am worried now for me and my friend that Rabbi Belsky and Gornish may not be accepted by the Israeli Rabanut. Please help me on this. Thanks.
"Why do conversions if the whole system is so disorganized."
ReplyDeleteBrilliant idea. I suggest we also stop eating, because the hechsher system is so disorganized, and getting married, because the Rabbinate is such a mess, and dying because the chevra kadisha cannot decide which mes goes to which beis oleim...
Oh, and let's dissolve the communities, since there are so many different kinds of them and they always disagree.
...and, of course, suspend the training of Rabbis, because you see what becomes of men who train as a Rabbi...
...and abolish jewish schools because they are too expensive anyway...
"... and the list is not at all up to date (and it also warns that this could be the case)."
ReplyDeleteI don't know about that. My beis din used to be on the list but, they aren't anymore. I think they stopped doing conversions. I'm not worried. The girl who went with me was already married in Israel. Her mother in law had NO problems. The paper was accepted on the spot without a question. Also, I don't plan on leaving NYC. The beis din I went through has an excellent rep here in NYC.
"The simple resolution of this issue is for EjF to produce a letter from the Israeli Rabbinute that says all EJF certified beis din's converts are automatically accepted.
ReplyDeleteThey have never made such a claim."
They have to. It used to be on their website. Also, they had OCTJ making that claim on their behalf. Hahahah, I saw something yesterday where OCTJ seems to have parted ways with them at some point.
Anonymous (January 17, 2010 8:50 AM),
ReplyDeleteeven though maybe someone can clarify for you if R. Gornish and R. Belsky's conversions are currently automatically accepted by the Israeli Rabbanut (I unfortunately can't), I think it is important for you to realise that any answer only refers to the current situation. Any beth din you go to might do something in the future (or a political conflict might arise), which will cause the Rabbanut to no longer accept their conversions. You are never safe.
And even if you were willing to ignore the Rabbanut's opinion, and only wanted a kosher giyur (according to halacha), and went to an extremely well respected beth din, and were completely committed to a life of Torah and Mitzvos, you still couldn't be sure. Unfortunately, even extremely well respected batei din mess up on the technical aspects of conversions. These things aren't talked about, but they happen. If you convert, you must be willing to undergo a giyur lechumrah at any time, to have your status forever in limbo. Unfortunate, but true.