Mo’ed Koton(17a): There was a certain distinguished rabbi about whom there were bad rumors (about sexual misconduct - Tosfos). Rav Yehuda asked how is one to respond? If it is to ban him, this cannot be done since the Rabbis need him as a good teacher. However not to put ban him is also not possible since it would profane the name of Heaven…. So Rav Yehuda banned him. Eventually Rav Yehuda became seriously ill. The Rabbis came to visit him and that man came along with them. When Rav Yehuda saw him he laughed. The man said, Is it not sufficient that banned me but he also laughs at me? Rav Yehuda replied that he was not laughing at him but that he was in fact dying and it made him happy that even though the other person was a great and important man he didn’t refrain from treating correctly…. His colleagues did not remove the ban and he went away crying. A wasp came and stung him on his private member and died. He was not admitted in the burial ground of the pious but he was admitted in the burial ground of the judges. That is because he followed the ruling of R’ Il’ai that if a person sees that his lust is overcoming him he should go to a place where he is not recognized and wear dark clothing and cover himself with a dark covering and then do what his heart desired rather than profane the name of heaven openly.
מועד קטן (יז.): ההוא צורבא מרבנן דהוו סנו שומעניה. אמר רב יהודה: היכי ליעביד? לשמתיה - צריכי ליה רבנן, לא לשמתיה - קא מיתחיל שמא דשמיא. .... שמתיה רב יהודה. לסוף איחלש רב יהודה, אתו רבנן לשיולי ביה, ואתא איהו נמי בהדייהו. כד חזייה רב יהודה חייך אמר ליה: לא מסתייך דשמתיה לההוא גברא אלא אחוכי נמי חייך בי? אמר ליה: לאו בדידך מחייכנא אלא דכי אזלינא לההוא עלמא בדיחא דעתאי דאפילו לגברא כוותך לא חניפי ליה. נח נפשיה דרב יהודה, ... לא שרא ליה. נפק כי קא בכי ואזיל, אתא זיבורא וטרקיה אאמתיה, ושכיב. עיילוהו למערתא דחסידי - ולא קיבלוהו, עיילוהו למערתא דדייני - וקיבלוהו. מאי טעמא? - דעבד כרבי אילעאי. דתניא, רבי אילעאי אומר: אם רואה אדם שיצרו מתגבר עליו - ילך למקום שאין מכירין אותו, וילבש שחורים ויתעטף שחורים, ויעשה מה שלבו חפץ, ואל יחלל שם שמים בפרהסיא.
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שולחן ערוך יורה דעה שלד:מב
חכם, זקן בחכמה, או אב בית דין שסרח, אין מנדין אותו בפרהסיא לעולם, אלא אם כן עשה כירבעם בן נבט וחביריו. אבל כשחטא שאר חטאות, מלקין אותו בצינעא. וכן כל ת"ח שנתחייב נידוי, אסור לב"ד לקפוץ ולנדותו במהרה, אלא בורחים ונשמטים ממנו. וחסידי החכמים היו משתבחים שלא נמנו מעולם לנדות תלמיד חכם, ואף ע"פ שנמנים להלקותו אם נתחייב מלקות או מכת מרדות. ואי סני שומעניה כגון שמתעסק בספרי אפיקורוסין ושותה במיני זמר, או שחביריו מתביישין ממנו ושם שמים מתחלל על ידו, משמתינן ליה.
חכם, זקן בחכמה, או אב בית דין שסרח, אין מנדין אותו בפרהסיא לעולם, אלא אם כן עשה כירבעם בן נבט וחביריו. אבל כשחטא שאר חטאות, מלקין אותו בצינעא. וכן כל ת"ח שנתחייב נידוי, אסור לב"ד לקפוץ ולנדותו במהרה, אלא בורחים ונשמטים ממנו. וחסידי החכמים היו משתבחים שלא נמנו מעולם לנדות תלמיד חכם, ואף ע"פ שנמנים להלקותו אם נתחייב מלקות או מכת מרדות. ואי סני שומעניה כגון שמתעסק בספרי אפיקורוסין ושותה במיני זמר, או שחביריו מתביישין ממנו ושם שמים מתחלל על ידו, משמתינן ליה.
The following post from "Frum Follies" is worthy of serious attention in the present context:
ReplyDelete"Cults, Kiruv, Conversion And Kanois: The Rise and Fall of Leib Troppper (Part I) (12/21/2009)
Americans elected Barack Obama whose slogan was The Audacity Of Hope. The ultra orthodox word ceded enormous influence to Leib Tropper whose biography should be The Chutzpah of Kanois (The Audacity of Zealotry). By skillfully using his street cred as a zealot, generously spreading around money, and flattering leaders he got license to bully sincere opponents and exploit individuals.
In the coming days and weeks I will write about the Tropper affair, but not about the details of his sexual misconduct. I am interested in answering the question: how could the rabbinical establishment have endorsed and given cover to this repulsive man? The answers involve a mixture of bribery, ignorance of the external world, hostility to the outside world, cowardice and blatant and habitual manipulation.
[to read rest click above link]
Rabbi Eidensohon why are you suggesting that tropper fits into this category, he has been known all the years by those in Monsey of being a menuval.
ReplyDeleteMonsey Jew said...
ReplyDeleteRabbi Eidensohon why are you suggesting that tropper fits into this category, he has been known all the years by those in Monsey of being a menuval.
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I am only saying that even for those devoted followers and associates who still claim there is no evidence against Tropper just rumors - but the halacha requires even such a person to be dealt with by at least banning him. There is no justification for the deafening silence which exists at present.
http://www.change.org/actions/view/shut_down_troppers_eternal_jewish_fraud_organization
ReplyDelete"he has been known all the years by those in
ReplyDeleteMonsey of being a menuval."
These kind of comments really puzzle me. If this was known, why didn't anyone do anything until it was spread over the Internet?
DT said:
ReplyDeleteI am only saying that even for those devoted followers and associates who still claim there is no evidence against Tropper just rumors
See Rav Stenbuchs teshuvos vol 5, basically he writes there the head of an instituion has the responsibilty to listen to rumors and to follow then up to clarify if they are true, one is not allowed to say innocent unitl proven and ignore the rumors.
DT said:
ReplyDeletebut the halacha requires even such a person to be dealt with by at least banning him.
Monsey Jew:
this ban is long overdue, many whom i have spoke to from Monsey agree
There was not much need to do anything until recently. Tropper was already kicked out of Or Sameach and was pretty much persona non grata everywhere he turned.
ReplyDeleteAll of sudden, when Tropper was swimming in million$ from Tom & Guma and wanted to throw some of the largesse in the direction of rabbis who were willing to approve his nonsense, he had a rabbinic following, who not surprisingly are very reluctant to part with the Tropper piggy bank.
Aaron, there are types of rumors in the sug of "kala delo pasik" that according to halacha carry much more weight than just plain rumors.
ReplyDeleteephraim, I believe the answer to your question is that there was a massive failure, lack of good judgement, and abdication of responsibility here. For what it is worth, many of the little people recognized this man as a bully at best shortly after EJF started operating. He and EJF were rejected, but nobody hears the voices of the little people like rabbanim in smaller and smaller communities around the world. Many folks associated with YU and the RCA rejected him after initial exposure to him; but you're probably not asking about them.
ReplyDeleteThis is just one more, but especially gross example, where the rabbanim have been blinded and the askanim/bullies have taken over.
ephraim said:
ReplyDeleteThese kind of comments really puzzle me. If this was known, why didn't anyone do anything until it was spread over the Internet?
Monsey Jew said;
in town it was known that Rav Elya Svei distanced him. he had a twenty year break of these type of stories,so some people forgot., there were other stories that should have raised public eyebrows including the whole EJF, (there the money blinded everyone)
Ephraim, the reason nobody did anything is because he was or should I say still IS a "Rosh Yeshiva" We have created an environment where nobody goes up against a Rosh yeshiva, it is your word against a Rosh Yeshiva. Even though his close colleagues know he is a menuval unfortunately they did not have the power or influence to try overthrow him.
ReplyDeleteI have heard first hand by Rabbeyem who worked in the Yeshiva, including Rav Pinchos Jung, who used to be the masgiach at the yeshiva, as well as Rabbi Schwab who was a Rov at the yeshiva for 13 years that he is a menuval, but that their hands are tied.
In the 1st case, Rabbi Jung unfortunately had now power, he lived on meager wages and said that Rabbi Tropper signs his check.
In the latter case of Rav Schwab the excuse was made for Tropper that he is a menuval, but that we must feel sorry for his irrational ways and temper, because since Tropper has diabetes he has mood swings and is not thinking clearly.
This of course is a case of dan lechaf zchus, Tropper one day fired him on a whim after 13 years of basically working there for free.
According to Wikipedia, the Co-Rosh yeshiva is still Rav Dovid Stefansky http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kol_Yaakov_Torah_Center
Someone should contact Rav Dovid Stefansky, The Co-Rosh Yeshiva of Kol Yaakov/Horizons and ask him if he condones and still supports Tropper.
As long as Tropper has enablers he will continue his reign of terror and abuse of those who are powerless to stand up for themselves.
Rabbi Dovid Stefansky's Number is
David H Stefansky
9 Langeries Dr
Monsey, NY 10952
(845) 426-1389
Rabbi Wolpin's number is
David R Wolpin
81 Saddle River Rd
Monsey, NY 10952
(845) 352-4993
Kol Yaakov's number is
29 West Maple Avenue
Monsey, NY 10952-2954
(845) 425-3863
My assumption is that Tropper the control freak has instructed all his puppets not to take any calls regarding him, but maybe someone can get through to them. If they are true Torah followers, they will support the Baal tshuva's who they dedicated their lives to helping, and not enable a Zimri posing as a Rosh Yeshiva, who abuses baal tshuva's and geirim and who pressures them into being in his brother and fulfilling his sick desires.
The Rabbeyem at the yeshiva have to decide, do they enable Tropper and sink with him? Or do they stand up and say they will not align themselves with such a menuval and maintain their reputations and hard work over the decades.
Would Rabbis who do phony conversions fall into this category too?
ReplyDeleteF., Can you email me I want to discuss this with you?
ReplyDeleteehRockland@yahoo.com