The transcript is of a recording of Rav Reuven Feinstein talking about the parameters of kiruv and mixed couples. I wish to thank Aaron for sending it to me and providing us with the "smoking gun". The words in brackets and italicized are those of the people with whom Rav Reuven was speaking with.
As you will note there is a considerable gap between what Rav Reuven says is mutar and ossur and what R' Tropper says and does. It strongly supports the view that I and others have taken regarding the normative position and is line with what Rav Eliashiv has written and Rav Fuerst has stated was Rav Moshe Feinstein's position. It is also is in line what Rav Nosson Kaminetsky told me was the view of Rav Yaakov Kaminetsky.
I do not understand why there should be such a disparity - but there is no denying that it exists.
My transcript was reviewed by Mekubal and Aaron for accuracy. I also want to thank Mekubal for taking the time to prepare an edited version of the recording.
I do not understand why there should be such a disparity - but there is no denying that it exists.
Roni replied many times when it was implied that r' Feinstein and the yeshiva received money from EJF in manner like this: "how dare you to say that r' Feinstein support the EJF because of money?". r' Eidensohn himself tells of a conversation he had with Talmid muvhak of famous rosh yeshiva who speaks in EJF conferences. The rosh yeshiva told the talmid that the conferences are shtus va'hevel but he needs to go because of the money the yeshiva gets from Tropper.
Roni sent a message that he will not defend Tropper until we repent and concede his points regarding improper geirus for the sake of money etc etc
Furthermore whatever things that Tropper has done wrong - our comments on the blog on even worse
Roni - you are not doing me a favor by refusing to defend Tropper and your ridiculous accusation and paranoid delusions are not convincing anyone of either the correctness of Tropper's path or the essential evilness of mine.
These statements seem to basically presume it is a man who has married a non-jewish woman and therefore halachically has non-jewish kids (or will have). What if it is the husband who is not Jewish? Her kids will be Jewish no matter what, so is he still supposed to be pushed away? Wouldn't that convince the kids to seek other options because their father is pushed away and most people would consider that racism, not religiously based (since there is no question of the children's jewishness)? And why do these rulings always presume it is the wife who is non-jewish?
Roni is so full of illusions that you ever supported the perported geirus, all you quoted was that ... has been accepted in Israeli society as a fully fledged Jew, this is merley stating a fact and not giving any opinion. With Roni being so paranoid he cant even read basic English.
Rosho, shegets NOTHING WILL HELP YOU....YOU INSETAD OF WRITING THAT SHE IS GOYA (AND CERTAINLY NOT EVEN ALLWOING TE DISCUSSION ABOUT THE SALE OF YIDDISHKEYT TO MONEY AND THE CORRUPTION OF YIDDISHKEYT) YOU WROTE THAT SHE IS A FULL FLEDGED JEW AND ALLOWED OTHER COMMENTS IN THIS VEIN (IE. SOME OF THE OTHER HOLY NAMES OF THIS TREYFE BLOG) IN ADDITION TO YOU HAD SIMILAR COMMENTS YOU ALLOWED FOR A LONG TIME COMMENTS LIKE "LENIENT STANDARD" ABOUT THIS SHIKSSAH...AT LEAST THAT TIME I WAS THERE TO COUNTER BALANACE...BUT NOW YOU WENT AHEAD WITH THE CENSURE ON THIS AND SLOWLY HAD SOME MESSAGES GIVING THAT IDEA....WHAT MEANS ACCEPTED IN ISRAELI SOCIETY AS FULL FLEDGED JEW? WHICH SOCIETY? WHAT DOES THAT CONVEY IN ENGLISH? IT IS WRONG IN ALL ASPECTS! RABBANUT HARASHIT DOES NOT ACCEPT HER CONVERSION AND SO WOULD MISRAD HAPNIM (DESPITE ALL YOUR MACHINATIONS TO THE CONTRARY) AND FOR ALL PRACTICAL PURPOSES LEGALLY SHE WOULD NOT BE JEWISH/....WHAT MESSAG DID YOU TRY TO CONVEY THAT "ISRAELI SOCIETY" ACCEPTS "AS A JEW"? WHAT WAS THE POINT THAT YOU TRIED TO CONVERY? THAT DESPITE THE OBJECTIONS OF HALACHA IT DOES NOT MATTER.....***YOU*** FORTERS INTERMARRIAGE...YOU ARE WORSE THAN ANYTHING TROPPER EVER DID BESHOGEG...YOU ARE A MESSIS UMEDIACH AND JUST FOR HATE....YOUR HATE OF TROPPER WAS MAAVIR YOU ON YOUR LITTLE KRUMMME SKULL THAT YOU HAD AND YOU ARE ENGULFED IN THE HATE THAT INSTEAD OF FIGHTING REAL INTERMARRIAGE AND GOYIM IN KLAL YISROEL YOU TAKE ALL YOUR ENERGY ON SOMETHING THAT AT THE VERY WORSE IS FAR BETTER THAN YOUR PROMOTION OF INTERMARRIAGE!
I don't see ANYWHERE in that transcript where R' Feinstein states that he does not support R' Tropper or EJF's conventions for intermarried couples.
In fact, I see the opposite.
He states that he does not support proselytizing, but he obviously supports R' Tropper and EJF. One would logically assume that to mean that R' Feinstein does not consider the EJF conventions to be a means of proselytizing.
Rachel says "But of course, there's no logic here..."
From the way Rachel is talking it is obvious that she has no clue that this blog and a number of posters here have been dealing with the controversies and issues surrounding EJF and Rabbi Tropper for over two years no.
It is evident from the way she writes that she is clueless about the fact that she is clueless.
While Rabbi Eidensohn and others are familar with all the subtleties and arguments in many directions that Rachel simply does not grasp as she jumps into the discussions as if nothing has been posted on this blog, as if no research has been, as if no discussion have been held, as if no analyzing the facts has taken place, as if personalities and arguments have not been disected, as if nothing has been said here for the last two years.
Rachel, do yourself the favor and read up all the past discussions before jumping to false conclusions that makes you look, well, ...silly!
Rosho, shegets NOTHING WILL HELP YOU ============ I just let through this comments - one of many tirades that Roni has been trying to post to let everybody know what a sad condition he is in. His banishment from this blog apparently has totally unhinged him. This is one of the milder ones - that simple indicate he is mentally unbalanced and that anything he says is to be understood as such and can not be taken too seriously even as an attempted defense of R' Tropper.
It is a shame - I assume that before his breakdown Roni had solid potential to make something of himself. Unfortunately the broken raving lunatic that is displayed here obviously is in great need of a lot of help
I think this text poses more problems than it resolves.
Look at this part of the text:
"However in the case where a person knew that he was a Jew but still wanted to marry a non-Jew - he is definitely a Shaygetz and they need to be pushed away - because conversion in such a situation is absolutely no leshem shamaym at all. She obviously wants to remain a non-Jew."
This postulates that it is possible to know intention of the would-be Ger (leshem shamaym or not) from the previous level of observant of the jewish spouse: If the jewish spouse never was observant and therefore did not really realise that he is not allowed to marry a non-jew, the intentions of the spouse who wants to make a Giur might be pure.
However, if the jewish spouse was once observant enough to know that it is forbidden to marry a jew, it is excluded that the non-jewish spouse could mean the Giur sincerely. I think that this hypothesis is questionnable. For once, I do not think that the sincerity of the Ger-to-be is linked to the previous level of observance of the jewish spouse. Secondly, this does not leave room for "T'shuvah" on the side of the jewish spouse.
I think that the "rule" given at the beginning of the text also leaves an ample grey zone, and I suppose that most mixed marriages fall exactely into this grey zone.
1) "and he is interested specifically in a relationship with a non-jew".
and 2) "they are concerned simply with which person they want to relate to - and it is irrelevant whether they are jewish"
In case 1) giur would not be acceptable, in case 2) it would provided the spouse converts leshem shamaim.
Now I suppose that most jews who marry non jews (or have a long-standing relationship) do it because "they are concerned simply with which person they want to relate to - and it is irrelevant whether they are jewish".
I suppose the cases where it is done purely out of spite are few and far between.
The bit about "Giur seminaries" seems quite clear. However, in practice, it would be extremely difficult to know which is which. (How do you know it was not the mother-in-law who pestered them into attending, even if it was designed only for people who come out of their own free will?)
RONI said: (AND CERTAINLY NOT EVEN ALLWOING TE DISCUSSION ABOUT THE SALE OF YIDDISHKEYT TO MONEY AND THE CORRUPTION OF YIDDISHKEYT)
Aaron said: Mr Roni, Rabbi Tropper had in 2007 according to the forms uploaded to this blog, $7 Million to play around with, dont accuse others of coruption with money, this is exactly what chazal say "kol haposel bemumo posel"
Let's be clear. The person who Roni claims underwent a "false" conversion was, with that conversion able to make Aliyah under the law of Return. Also was able to register their children in religious schools as Jews.
Both of these items require the acceptance by Rabbinute of the Geirus. So even assuming that the letter, that Roni initially admitted was forged,to be genuine all we have in the end is a few Rabbis possibly not accepting a conversion(of which some actually retracted as we see on this site).
However, the truth of the matter remains that the Gold standard, acceptance by Rabbinute as been granted. So I beg the question how can a person deny a valid Geirus that Rabbinute accepts?
In truth this is simply a red herring distraction tactic by Roni to move away from the damning evidence of R' Reuven's own words.
The conferences at the Lavie Hotel are EJF events - see the advertisement I placed on the posting. The fact that EJF advertised an event to attract mixed couples is prohibited according to Rav Reuven
Yes I meant to add that he was asked about the Lavie Hotel events as well.
Was EJF mentioned by name? No.
Was R' Tropper mentioned by name? No.
Were his events described well enough as to the adevertising, publication, and locations as to leave no doubt that they were talking about EJF events? Yes... it is very clear that they were talking about EJF events.
What might be off putting to R' Tropper and his sock puppets Rachel and Roni(I guess he has a thing for "R" names), is that the discussion took place in a Torahdik manner.
One simply does not say to a Rav of this caliber something like, "Hey you are affiliated with EJF but it contradicts your own teachings how do you justify that?"
I know that this is how R' Tropper would handle things, thus he is so widely known for his refinement and the quality of his middot. However the rest of the Torah world tries to broach such a sensitive topic with tact.
No one on this blog really cares about Guma and Jamie who were brought into the heart of Klal Yisroel by none other than Rabbi Tropper himself who also took lots of their money and only when they left him did he come up with complaints. They are not the isssue. They are the obsession of Rabbi Tropper and the red herrings of poster Roni/Tropper, in his relatively saner days, when he brought forth the flogging horse of Rabbi Bomzer.
Nobody on this blog cares much about Rabbi Bomzer and nobody on this blog has shown any particular high regard for him or his conversions, because that has not been the issue on this blog. He is not a monster however and he also deserves his day in court and to a fair trial instead of Rabbi Tropper's constant pillorying of him as if he were the devil incarnate that says more about Rabbi Tropper's state of mind than it says about Rabbi Bomzer. The Rabbanut and the RCA keep tabs of Rabbi Bomzer and make decisions that effect his converts. So far it is Rabbi Tropper who is acting as if he were a law unto himself.
The owner of this blog Rabbi Eidensohn/da'as torah was legally threatened by a lawyer representing the nephew for the posts he had on this blog relating to and about him and his wife, and those posts were forced to be taken down. That is itself the greatest proof that this blog does not speak for or encourage anything uncle Tom's nephew said or does.
Rabbi Tropper/Roni is just projecting his own real guilt and of hosting and toasting the nephew and his non-Jewoih wife and using the funds to promote himself and sponsor and buy off hundreds of honorable but gullible rabbis.
The focus of this blog has always been EJF's proselytization efforts as it has undertaken to openly reach out to and recruit gentiles hitched to Jews. In some online articles EJF has openly welcomed ANY gentiles to join the Jewish people. These are dangerous ventures.
EJF's desire to impose strict standards on conversions and thereby control all Batei Din that deal with conversions is yet another issue, but it's not the bone of contention on this blog.
What Rabbi Eidensohn has been consistently requesting from Rabbi Tropper is to come forth with a conventional written haskoma or heter or shaylo and teshuva from preferably more than one known posek or gadol permitting him and EJF to udertake "'kiruv' to the goyim" via proselytizing and seeking out intermarried couples and lure them and host them at fancy hotels with free lectures and seminars in the hope of convincing them to convert to Orthodox Judaism.
Rabbi Tropper has been unable to come up with a shred of written support.
Much has always hinged on Rav Reuven Feinstein. Rabbi Tropper has always held that he is the greatest single source of rabbinical support to EJF by "showing up" at EJF events. Rabbi Tropper or someone close to him even came up with a vague devar Torah from Rav Reuven, not on his official stationary, talking in general terms about some kiruv and outreach and interfaith issues but never intimating a "heter" for EJF and defintely not a mandate.
Now this taped recording of Rav Reuven's words moves him away from EJF-style actvities, so what do EJF spokespeopldo? they say, aha, well, that's us Rav Reuven is really speaking about, as being a "neutral organization" not proselytizing when all the EJF ads, literature and events say the exact opposite and for which EJF and Rabbi Tropper faced explicit condemnation and rebuke from Rav Moshe Shternbuch and the BADATS.
Rav Reuven will have to be asked to do better than this even, and be asked to say explicitly what he holds about EJF and the Tropper controversy of introducing proselytization into the heart of the Charedi Torah world, something that goes 100% against 2000, perhaps even over 3000 years, of known Yiddishkeit.
and thank you mekubal for showing what your true colors are YOU ARE PROMOTING GOYIM INTO KLAL YISROEL JUST AS YOUR SHADOWS AND OTHER ALIASES!!! YOU ARE A ROSOH GOMUR!! FORGET ABOUT YOU PRETENSES ABOUT YOUR TRUE CONCERNS...YOUA RE NOT CONCERNED ABOUYT HALACHA NOT YOU NOT EDENSOHN THE ROSHO NOT MR NOT ALL THE RESHOIM IN THIS BLOG...
LISTEN CAREFULLY A PERSON WHO NEVER KEP TORAH AND MITZVOT IS GOYA GOMUR ... THIS IS WHAT RAV STERNBUCH WHOM YOU HAVE FOOLED LIKE ESSAV HOROSHO, RULES ABOUT THESE GERUSS ...HE WRITES BLACK ON WHITE THAT THEY ARE GOYIM GMURIM....WHAT DO YOU CARE ABOUT CONFERENCES WHEN THEY DO NOT PRODUCE THE SHIKSSAHS THAT YOU PROMOTE ....SHKTZIM PROMOTING INTERMARRIAGE ARE WORRIED ABOUT THE CONCERTS AND CONFERENCES.... ALL YOU WORRIED IS ONE THING TROPPER AND THE OTHER THING YOU ARE WORRIED THAT THERE ARE LESS ... BECUASE OF TROPPPER... AND LISTEN IT IS BVECUASE OF PEOPLE LIKE YOU THAT RAV REUVEN WILL CONTINUE TO SUPPORT RAV TROOPPER FULL FORCE BECUASE HE KNOWS THAT THERE ARE FAKERS WHO LIKE TO BRING MORE SHIKSSAH LIKE ... AND CORRUPT ALL YIDDISHKEYT INTO KLAL YISROEL!! THANK YOU FOR MAKING THE BEST DEFENSE FOR RAV TROPPER
By believing that the Chachamim at the Rabbinut know how to do their job, and that they know a valid Geirut from a posul Geirut, the sockpuppet known as Roni feels the need to claim that I am promoting Goyim into Klal Yisrael.
One you should know that it is ossur l'gamrei to call a Jew a rasha. When you need to violate Torah in order to defend it, you have already lost. It shows a much deeper problem than the one you claim on the surface.
Bear in mind that is not simply I or D"T or RaP that you are arguing with. By saying that this is person is an ivalid geir you are in effect arguing the chachamim of Rabbinut, as they accepted this individual. One of your initial claims to show that R' Bomzer's conversion were no good, was that they were not accepted by Rabbinut, but it appears that they are.
Seriously Roni/Rachel/Tropper, your claims are becomming more wild, as the insecurity of your position is revealed.
You show your self to hold the Holy Rabbanim of Klal Yisrael in very low esteem. You think that a Gadol like R' Shternbuch and all of BaDaTz can be so easily decieved? You think that amongst the entire B"D there does not exist Daat Torah? That is what your statement implies. If a B"D on such a madrega could be so easily decieved... OY LANU!!! There is no mishpat.
You claim that R' Reuven will continue to support EJF. How by stating every time he is asked that what they do is Ossur? That is what he did in the recording. The transcript is there for all to see.
Roni/Rachel if you are not Tropper who is he to you that you feel such a deep seated need to defend him to the death despite overwhelming evidence(including the words of his own supposed posek. Either this is a major case of sock puppet trolling, like the afore mentioned Lubinsky affair, or you are suffering from that same malady that afflicted the Japanese soldiers who continued to fight on for decades after the war was over out shame of being on the losing side.
To refocus here are the the troubling facts that you seem incapable of dealing with as a rational and respectful human being: 1) Rabbinut accepts R' Bomzer's conversions 2) Rabbinut accepts the conversion of the person you lable a shiktza. 3) As Rabbinut has de-facto become the universally accepted standard around the world... like it or not, the person is Jewish. 4) When directly asked if the conferences that are being held at the Lavie Hotel and the one in Viena(which can only be EJF events) are ossur, R' Reuven responded "Yes". 5) This means that R' Reuven does not support what EJF is doing.
I know that after your years of ardent defense these revelations are a bitter pill to swallow. However it is time to man up(or sock puppet up as the case may be) and admit to the defeat that is so evidently portrayed here, unless you can actually refute the above stated facts in a logical and respectful manner.
"Jersey Girl said... "As Rabbinut has de-facto become the universally accepted standard around the world"
Yes, this is especially true since the RCA has adopted the Geirus Protocols System (GPS)."
Which brings us full circle because increasingly since 1948, the Israeli Chief Rabbinate (Rabbanut) has always been the "world currency" of conversion standards for the majority of converts, even though almost all the Charedi world and all the Chasidic world would never accept the Rabbanut's standards and conversions relying on their own bais di system instead. So that is no news.
What Tropper tried to do with his his EJF idea was to take it a step further and establish a totally Charedi (EJF) controlled system of batei din for conversions, by humiliating and crushing the Rabbanut in Israel (Rav Eisenstein's job) and in the RCA in the USA (Rabbi Tropper's agenda).
So the Rabbanut and RCA seeing the common threat, have both dusted themselves off and raised their standards and have created a united front to ward off the EJF/Rav Eisenstein/Rabbi Tropper threats to their very existence and legitimacy and in the process they have effectively marginalized Rabbi Tropper and Rav Eisenstein who now come across as two Charedi fanatics, crackpots and public nuisances.
Events have played into the RCA's and the Rabbanut's hands, as Tropper and EJF have a meltdown with the legal fights destroying EJF's very expensive carefully crafted public image and a corrupt and unprincipled outfit as Tom Kaplan and Guma claw at each other dragging Rabbi Tropper into every step of their exhibitionist public family feud, while the Rabbanut and RCA maturely and shrewdly step aside and say nothing as their arch-enemy Rabbi Tropper gets mauled, downgraded and made into a laughing stock by his own former disciple who himself becomes a new "darling" of Israeli causes like Nefesh BeNefesh, Israeli soccer, and more.
RaP said "What Tropper tried to do with his his EJF idea was to take it a step further and establish a totally Charedi (EJF) controlled system of batei din for conversions"
The facts don't seem to support that. Tropper was wrapping Reform in a Charedi package.
The conversions they supervised were almost universally a joke. He has no religious standards at all. Now we know that his "Charedi" conversions standards have more to do with satisfying his sexual appetites than satisfying halachic requirements. I'm sure those who have worked with him share his values. They are all disgusting.
His only interests have been thirst for power and public respect.
When Shaul Lieberman and Abraham Joshua Heschel and others took jobs at JTS, they lost their standing, even though no one questioned their personal religious practice or their lomdus. This has even happened to people who went to Yeshiva University.
Why is the commentariat on this page not asking why R. Reuven Feinstein would leave his name with the organization after making those statments. Surely he appreciates the significance of lending his name, if for no other reason than maras haayin. The combination of his name on the organizations letterhead and his attendance at the conferences implied an endorsement.
A Satmar blog is reporting that Rav Sternbuch shlita has made a public statement seemingly intended to catch the attention of R' Reuven Feinstein that no one should associate themselves with EJF even if Tropper is no longer there. Is there a new Badatz letter to this effect?
When is the Eidah coming out with a clear psak. Voz iz neiz reported the Badaz ruling on Friday, many of the comments where suprise to the badaz ruling claiming they did not know about it. Additionally many of the comentors were very suportive vis the badaz position. Now is the time slay your enemay while he is struggling to breath.
Rebbitzen Leiba Tropper's sister is the famous publicist Susan Blonde. She always says that she loves Michael Jackson and calls him the greatest entertainment figure of all times which is why she led the cover up of pedophile scandal.
There are rumors that she will use all of her Madison Ave resources to cover up for Leib & Leiba.
She was once a movie actress and played the role of a mother upset that her crying infant was preventing her from talking on the phone, so she threw the baby out of the window on a high floor. What kind of a sick person would agree to take this role that she did in a movie even if it is only acting?
Maybe this is where Leib Tropper got the idea to falsely accuse Guma of threatening to throw him out the 9th storey window. Kol haposel bemumo posul.
Dina said... RaP said "What Tropper tried to do with his his EJF idea was to take it a step further and establish a totally Charedi (EJF) controlled system of batei din for conversions
The facts don't seem to support that. Tropper was wrapping Reform in a Charedi package."
That's what happens when a person takes a snippet and turns it into something. You need to catch up with what I wrote over the last two years about Tropper and EJF and you will see that there is no way I would say or imply what you think I am saying with your out of context snippet of a quote.
And I do agree with your statement that ULTIMATELY: "His only interests have been thirst for power and public respect."
But in any case, Tropper was not selling "Reform" at all. What he was doing was that OUTWARDLY he was genuinely selling an ultra-charedi EJF-style conversion, that way he could get control over as many naive and willing idealistic humans as possible, who let their minds and bodies be controlled like zombies, and then Tropper used that as he saw fit to fulfil his INWARD desires, that seem more like something from the Sabbateans and the Frankists than from Reform who do not basically even bother with conversions because statistic show that a majority of Jewish Reform members are married to gentiles and the gentiles are not required or pressed to convert while they freely attend servives at Reform temples and get public honors there.
Tropper makes Reform look like simple math compared to his mind-bending gravity-defying twisting of Jewish law and life and manipulation of vast amounts of rabbis stunts.
"What Tropper tried to do ... was to...establish a totally Charedi (EJF) controlled system of batei din for conversions, by humiliating and crushing the Rabbanut in Israel (Rav Eisenstein's job) and in the RCA in the USA (Rabbi Tropper's agenda).
So the Rabbanut and RCA seeing the common threat, have both dusted themselves off and raised their standards and have created a united front to ward off the EJF/Rav Eisenstein/Rabbi Tropper threats to their very existence and legitimacy... "
This is a good summary of the big picture. I think this is also why, aside from the money, Tropper got so much support from the Chareidi rabbis in Israel and the Yeshivish establishment in the US. The Lakewood crowd wouldn't hold of the RCA at all, if they thought they could get away with it. After all, the RCA is basically a RIETS alumni association. The opportunity to drive the RCA off their perch was definitely one of the (many)motivations behind their support of EJF.
The transcript is of a recording of Rav Reuven Feinstein talking about the parameters of kiruv and mixed couples. I wish to thank Aaron for sending it to me and providing us with the "smoking gun". The words in brackets and italicized are those of the people with whom Rav Reuven was speaking with.
ReplyDeleteAs you will note there is a considerable gap between what Rav Reuven says is mutar and ossur and what R' Tropper says and does. It strongly supports the view that I and others have taken regarding the normative position and is line with what Rav Eliashiv has written and Rav Fuerst has stated was Rav Moshe Feinstein's position. It is also is in line what Rav Nosson Kaminetsky told me was the view of Rav Yaakov Kaminetsky.
I do not understand why there should be such a disparity - but there is no denying that it exists.
My transcript was reviewed by Mekubal and Aaron for accuracy. I also want to thank Mekubal for taking the time to prepare an edited version of the recording.
I do not understand why there should be such a disparity - but there is no denying that it exists.
ReplyDeleteRoni replied many times when it was implied that r' Feinstein and the yeshiva received money from EJF in manner like this: "how dare you to say that r' Feinstein support the EJF because of money?". r' Eidensohn himself tells of a conversation he had with Talmid muvhak of famous rosh yeshiva who speaks in EJF conferences. The rosh yeshiva told the talmid that the conferences are shtus va'hevel but he needs to go because of the money the yeshiva gets from Tropper.
http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2007/12/emperor-has-no-clothes-eternal-jewish.html
This thing corrupts the halachatic process we had for thousands of years and taints al the rabbis who goes to the conferences.
Then people complain why batei din are losing their relevance.
Roni sent a message that he will not defend Tropper until we repent and concede his points regarding improper geirus for the sake of money etc etc
ReplyDeleteFurthermore whatever things that Tropper has done wrong - our comments on the blog on even worse
Roni - you are not doing me a favor by refusing to defend Tropper and your ridiculous accusation and paranoid delusions are not convincing anyone of either the correctness of Tropper's path or the essential evilness of mine.
These statements seem to basically presume it is a man who has married a non-jewish woman and therefore halachically has non-jewish kids (or will have). What if it is the husband who is not Jewish? Her kids will be Jewish no matter what, so is he still supposed to be pushed away? Wouldn't that convince the kids to seek other options because their father is pushed away and most people would consider that racism, not religiously based (since there is no question of the children's jewishness)? And why do these rulings always presume it is the wife who is non-jewish?
ReplyDeleteRoni is so full of illusions that you ever supported the perported geirus, all you quoted was that ... has been accepted in Israeli society as a fully fledged Jew, this is merley stating a fact and not giving any opinion. With Roni being so paranoid he cant even read basic English.
ReplyDeleteRosho, shegets NOTHING WILL HELP YOU....YOU INSETAD OF WRITING THAT SHE IS GOYA (AND CERTAINLY NOT EVEN ALLWOING TE DISCUSSION ABOUT THE SALE OF YIDDISHKEYT TO MONEY AND THE CORRUPTION OF YIDDISHKEYT) YOU WROTE THAT SHE IS A FULL FLEDGED JEW AND ALLOWED OTHER COMMENTS IN THIS VEIN (IE. SOME OF THE OTHER HOLY NAMES OF THIS TREYFE BLOG) IN ADDITION TO YOU HAD SIMILAR COMMENTS YOU ALLOWED FOR A LONG TIME COMMENTS LIKE "LENIENT STANDARD" ABOUT THIS SHIKSSAH...AT LEAST THAT TIME I WAS THERE TO COUNTER BALANACE...BUT NOW YOU WENT AHEAD WITH THE CENSURE ON THIS AND SLOWLY HAD SOME MESSAGES GIVING THAT IDEA....WHAT MEANS ACCEPTED IN ISRAELI SOCIETY AS FULL FLEDGED JEW? WHICH SOCIETY? WHAT DOES THAT CONVEY IN ENGLISH? IT IS WRONG IN ALL ASPECTS! RABBANUT HARASHIT DOES NOT ACCEPT HER CONVERSION AND SO WOULD MISRAD HAPNIM (DESPITE ALL YOUR MACHINATIONS TO THE CONTRARY) AND FOR ALL PRACTICAL PURPOSES LEGALLY SHE WOULD NOT BE JEWISH/....WHAT MESSAG DID YOU TRY TO CONVEY THAT "ISRAELI SOCIETY" ACCEPTS "AS A JEW"? WHAT WAS THE POINT THAT YOU TRIED TO CONVERY? THAT DESPITE THE OBJECTIONS OF HALACHA IT DOES NOT MATTER.....***YOU*** FORTERS INTERMARRIAGE...YOU ARE WORSE THAN ANYTHING TROPPER EVER DID BESHOGEG...YOU ARE A MESSIS UMEDIACH AND JUST FOR HATE....YOUR HATE OF TROPPER WAS MAAVIR YOU ON YOUR LITTLE KRUMMME SKULL THAT YOU HAD AND YOU ARE ENGULFED IN THE HATE THAT INSTEAD OF FIGHTING REAL INTERMARRIAGE AND GOYIM IN KLAL YISROEL YOU TAKE ALL YOUR ENERGY ON SOMETHING THAT AT THE VERY WORSE IS FAR BETTER THAN YOUR PROMOTION OF INTERMARRIAGE!
ReplyDeleteDO TESHUVA AND THEN WE CAN TALK!
I don't see ANYWHERE in that transcript where R' Feinstein states that he does not support R' Tropper or EJF's conventions for intermarried couples.
ReplyDeleteIn fact, I see the opposite.
He states that he does not support proselytizing, but he obviously supports R' Tropper and EJF. One would logically assume that to mean that R' Feinstein does not consider the EJF conventions to be a means of proselytizing.
But of course, there's no logic here...
Rachel says "But of course, there's no logic here..."
ReplyDeleteFrom the way Rachel is talking it is obvious that she has no clue that this blog and a number of posters here have been dealing with the controversies and issues surrounding EJF and Rabbi Tropper for over two years no.
It is evident from the way she writes that she is clueless about the fact that she is clueless.
While Rabbi Eidensohn and others are familar with all the subtleties and arguments in many directions that Rachel simply does not grasp as she jumps into the discussions as if nothing has been posted on this blog, as if no research has been, as if no discussion have been held, as if no analyzing the facts has taken place, as if personalities and arguments have not been disected, as if nothing has been said here for the last two years.
Rachel, do yourself the favor and read up all the past discussions before jumping to false conclusions that makes you look, well, ...silly!
RONI said...
ReplyDeleteRosho, shegets NOTHING WILL HELP YOU
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I just let through this comments - one of many tirades that Roni has been trying to post to let everybody know what a sad condition he is in. His banishment from this blog apparently has totally unhinged him. This is one of the milder ones - that simple indicate he is mentally unbalanced and that anything he says is to be understood as such and can not be taken too seriously even as an attempted defense of R' Tropper.
It is a shame - I assume that before his breakdown Roni had solid potential to make something of himself. Unfortunately the broken raving lunatic that is displayed here obviously is in great need of a lot of help
I think this text poses more problems than it resolves.
ReplyDeleteLook at this part of the text:
"However in the case where a person knew that he was a Jew but still wanted to marry a non-Jew - he is definitely a Shaygetz and they need to be pushed away - because conversion in such a situation is absolutely no leshem shamaym at all. She obviously wants to remain a non-Jew."
This postulates that it is possible to know intention of the would-be Ger (leshem shamaym or not) from the previous level of observant of the jewish spouse: If the jewish spouse never was observant and therefore did not really realise that he is not allowed to marry a non-jew, the intentions of the spouse who wants to make a Giur might be pure.
However, if the jewish spouse was once observant enough to know that it is forbidden to marry a jew, it is excluded that the non-jewish spouse could mean the Giur sincerely.
I think that this hypothesis is questionnable. For once, I do not think that the sincerity of the Ger-to-be is linked to the previous level of observance of the jewish spouse. Secondly, this does not leave room for "T'shuvah" on the side of the jewish spouse.
I think that the "rule" given at the beginning of the text also leaves an ample grey zone, and I suppose that most mixed marriages fall exactely into this grey zone.
1) "and he is interested specifically in a relationship with a non-jew".
and
2) "they are concerned simply with which person they want to relate to - and it is irrelevant whether they are jewish"
In case 1) giur would not be acceptable, in case 2) it would provided the spouse converts leshem shamaim.
Now I suppose that most jews who marry non jews (or have a long-standing relationship) do it because "they are concerned simply with which person they want to relate to - and it is irrelevant whether they are jewish".
I suppose the cases where it is done purely out of spite are few and far between.
The bit about "Giur seminaries" seems quite clear. However, in practice, it would be extremely difficult to know which is which. (How do you know it was not the mother-in-law who pestered them into attending, even if it was designed only for people who come out of their own free will?)
some interesting facts have been uncovered in the comments on the tax returns published below, have a look, its food for thought!!
ReplyDeleteRONI said:
ReplyDelete(AND CERTAINLY NOT EVEN ALLWOING TE DISCUSSION ABOUT THE SALE OF YIDDISHKEYT TO MONEY AND THE CORRUPTION OF YIDDISHKEYT)
Aaron said:
Mr Roni, Rabbi Tropper had in 2007 according to the forms uploaded to this blog, $7 Million to play around with, dont accuse others of coruption with money, this is exactly what chazal say "kol haposel bemumo posel"
Let's be clear. The person who Roni claims underwent a "false" conversion was, with that conversion able to make Aliyah under the law of Return. Also was able to register their children in religious schools as Jews.
ReplyDeleteBoth of these items require the acceptance by Rabbinute of the Geirus. So even assuming that the letter, that Roni initially admitted was forged,to be genuine all we have in the end is a few Rabbis possibly not accepting a conversion(of which some actually retracted as we see on this site).
However, the truth of the matter remains that the Gold standard, acceptance by Rabbinute as been granted. So I beg the question how can a person deny a valid Geirus that Rabbinute accepts?
In truth this is simply a red herring distraction tactic by Roni to move away from the damning evidence of R' Reuven's own words.
I don't see ANYWHERE in that transcript where R' Feinstein states that he does not support R' Tropper or EJF's conventions for intermarried couples.
ReplyDeleteHe was asked specifically if the Vienna conference(an EJF event) was ossur. His answer... "Yes".
What more do you need?
The conferences at the Lavie Hotel are EJF events - see the advertisement I placed on the posting. The fact that EJF advertised an event to attract mixed couples is prohibited according to Rav Reuven
ReplyDeleteYes I meant to add that he was asked about the Lavie Hotel events as well.
ReplyDeleteWas EJF mentioned by name? No.
Was R' Tropper mentioned by name? No.
Were his events described well enough as to the adevertising, publication, and locations as to leave no doubt that they were talking about EJF events? Yes... it is very clear that they were talking about EJF events.
What might be off putting to R' Tropper and his sock puppets Rachel and Roni(I guess he has a thing for "R" names), is that the discussion took place in a Torahdik manner.
One simply does not say to a Rav of this caliber something like, "Hey you are affiliated with EJF but it contradicts your own teachings how do you justify that?"
I know that this is how R' Tropper would handle things, thus he is so widely known for his refinement and the quality of his middot. However the rest of the Torah world tries to broach such a sensitive topic with tact.
Roni/s ramblings above are wild and false.
ReplyDeleteNo one on this blog really cares about Guma and Jamie who were brought into the heart of Klal Yisroel by none other than Rabbi Tropper himself who also took lots of their money and only when they left him did he come up with complaints. They are not the isssue. They are the obsession of Rabbi Tropper and the red herrings of poster Roni/Tropper, in his relatively saner days, when he brought forth the flogging horse of Rabbi Bomzer.
Nobody on this blog cares much about Rabbi Bomzer and nobody on this blog has shown any particular high regard for him or his conversions, because that has not been the issue on this blog. He is not a monster however and he also deserves his day in court and to a fair trial instead of Rabbi Tropper's constant pillorying of him as if he were the devil incarnate that says more about Rabbi Tropper's state of mind than it says about Rabbi Bomzer. The Rabbanut and the RCA keep tabs of Rabbi Bomzer and make decisions that effect his converts. So far it is Rabbi Tropper who is acting as if he were a law unto himself.
The owner of this blog Rabbi Eidensohn/da'as torah was legally threatened by a lawyer representing the nephew for the posts he had on this blog relating to and about him and his wife, and those posts were forced to be taken down. That is itself the greatest proof that this blog does not speak for or encourage anything uncle Tom's nephew said or does.
Rabbi Tropper/Roni is just projecting his own real guilt and of hosting and toasting the nephew and his non-Jewoih wife and using the funds to promote himself and sponsor and buy off hundreds of honorable but gullible rabbis.
ReplyDeleteThe focus of this blog has always been EJF's proselytization efforts as it has undertaken to openly reach out to and recruit gentiles hitched to Jews. In some online articles EJF has openly welcomed ANY gentiles to join the Jewish people. These are dangerous ventures.
EJF's desire to impose strict standards on conversions and thereby control all Batei Din that deal with conversions is yet another issue, but it's not the bone of contention on this blog.
What Rabbi Eidensohn has been consistently requesting from Rabbi Tropper is to come forth with a conventional written haskoma or heter or shaylo and teshuva from preferably more than one known posek or gadol permitting him and EJF to udertake "'kiruv' to the goyim" via proselytizing and seeking out intermarried couples and lure them and host them at fancy hotels with free lectures and seminars in the hope of convincing them to convert to Orthodox Judaism.
Rabbi Tropper has been unable to come up with a shred of written support.
Much has always hinged on Rav Reuven Feinstein. Rabbi Tropper has always held that he is the greatest single source of rabbinical support to EJF by "showing up" at EJF events. Rabbi Tropper or someone close to him even came up with a vague devar Torah from Rav Reuven, not on his official stationary, talking in general terms about some kiruv and outreach and interfaith issues but never intimating a "heter" for EJF and defintely not a mandate.
Now this taped recording of Rav Reuven's words moves him away from EJF-style actvities, so what do EJF spokespeopldo? they say, aha, well, that's us Rav Reuven is really speaking about, as being a "neutral organization" not proselytizing when all the EJF ads, literature and events say the exact opposite and for which EJF and Rabbi Tropper faced explicit condemnation and rebuke from Rav Moshe Shternbuch and the BADATS.
Rav Reuven will have to be asked to do better than this even, and be asked to say explicitly what he holds about EJF and the Tropper controversy of introducing proselytization into the heart of the Charedi Torah world, something that goes 100% against 2000, perhaps even over 3000 years, of known Yiddishkeit.
shktzim gmurim!!
ReplyDeleteand thank you mekubal for showing what your true colors are YOU ARE PROMOTING GOYIM INTO KLAL YISROEL JUST AS YOUR SHADOWS AND OTHER ALIASES!!! YOU ARE A ROSOH GOMUR!! FORGET ABOUT YOU PRETENSES ABOUT YOUR TRUE CONCERNS...YOUA RE NOT CONCERNED ABOUYT HALACHA NOT YOU NOT EDENSOHN THE ROSHO NOT MR NOT ALL THE RESHOIM IN THIS BLOG...
LISTEN CAREFULLY A PERSON WHO NEVER KEP TORAH AND MITZVOT IS GOYA GOMUR ... THIS IS WHAT RAV STERNBUCH WHOM YOU HAVE FOOLED LIKE ESSAV HOROSHO, RULES ABOUT THESE GERUSS ...HE WRITES BLACK ON WHITE THAT THEY ARE GOYIM GMURIM....WHAT DO YOU CARE ABOUT CONFERENCES WHEN THEY DO NOT PRODUCE THE SHIKSSAHS THAT YOU PROMOTE ....SHKTZIM PROMOTING INTERMARRIAGE ARE WORRIED ABOUT THE CONCERTS AND CONFERENCES.... ALL YOU WORRIED IS ONE THING TROPPER AND THE OTHER THING YOU ARE WORRIED THAT THERE ARE LESS ... BECUASE OF TROPPPER... AND LISTEN IT IS BVECUASE OF PEOPLE LIKE YOU THAT RAV REUVEN WILL CONTINUE TO SUPPORT RAV TROOPPER FULL FORCE BECUASE HE KNOWS THAT THERE ARE FAKERS WHO LIKE TO BRING MORE SHIKSSAH LIKE ... AND CORRUPT ALL YIDDISHKEYT INTO KLAL YISROEL!! THANK YOU FOR MAKING THE BEST DEFENSE FOR RAV TROPPER
Please note the fully rational response.
ReplyDeleteBy believing that the Chachamim at the Rabbinut know how to do their job, and that they know a valid Geirut from a posul Geirut, the sockpuppet known as Roni feels the need to claim that I am promoting Goyim into Klal Yisrael.
One you should know that it is ossur l'gamrei to call a Jew a rasha. When you need to violate Torah in order to defend it, you have already lost. It shows a much deeper problem than the one you claim on the surface.
Bear in mind that is not simply I or D"T or RaP that you are arguing with. By saying that this is person is an ivalid geir you are in effect arguing the chachamim of Rabbinut, as they accepted this individual. One of your initial claims to show that R' Bomzer's conversion were no good, was that they were not accepted by Rabbinut, but it appears that they are.
Seriously Roni/Rachel/Tropper, your claims are becomming more wild, as the insecurity of your position is revealed.
You show your self to hold the Holy Rabbanim of Klal Yisrael in very low esteem. You think that a Gadol like R' Shternbuch and all of BaDaTz can be so easily decieved? You think that amongst the entire B"D there does not exist Daat Torah? That is what your statement implies. If a B"D on such a madrega could be so easily decieved... OY LANU!!! There is no mishpat.
You claim that R' Reuven will continue to support EJF. How by stating every time he is asked that what they do is Ossur? That is what he did in the recording. The transcript is there for all to see.
Roni/Rachel if you are not Tropper who is he to you that you feel such a deep seated need to defend him to the death despite overwhelming evidence(including the words of his own supposed posek. Either this is a major case of sock puppet trolling, like the afore mentioned Lubinsky affair, or you are suffering from that same malady that afflicted the Japanese soldiers who continued to fight on for decades after the war was over out shame of being on the losing side.
To refocus here are the the troubling facts that you seem incapable of dealing with as a rational and respectful human being:
1) Rabbinut accepts R' Bomzer's conversions
2) Rabbinut accepts the conversion of the person you lable a shiktza.
3) As Rabbinut has de-facto become the universally accepted standard around the world... like it or not, the person is Jewish.
4) When directly asked if the conferences that are being held at the Lavie Hotel and the one in Viena(which can only be EJF events) are ossur, R' Reuven responded "Yes".
5) This means that R' Reuven does not support what EJF is doing.
I know that after your years of ardent defense these revelations are a bitter pill to swallow. However it is time to man up(or sock puppet up as the case may be) and admit to the defeat that is so evidently portrayed here, unless you can actually refute the above stated facts in a logical and respectful manner.
"As Rabbinut has de-facto become the universally accepted standard around the world"
ReplyDeleteYes, this is especially true since the RCA has adopted the Geirus Protocols System (GPS).
"Jersey Girl said... "As Rabbinut has de-facto become the universally accepted standard around the world"
ReplyDeleteYes, this is especially true since the RCA has adopted the Geirus Protocols System (GPS)."
Which brings us full circle because increasingly since 1948, the Israeli Chief Rabbinate (Rabbanut) has always been the "world currency" of conversion standards for the majority of converts, even though almost all the Charedi world and all the Chasidic world would never accept the Rabbanut's standards and conversions relying on their own bais di system instead. So that is no news.
What Tropper tried to do with his his EJF idea was to take it a step further and establish a totally Charedi (EJF) controlled system of batei din for conversions, by humiliating and crushing the Rabbanut in Israel (Rav Eisenstein's job) and in the RCA in the USA (Rabbi Tropper's agenda).
So the Rabbanut and RCA seeing the common threat, have both dusted themselves off and raised their standards and have created a united front to ward off the EJF/Rav Eisenstein/Rabbi Tropper threats to their very existence and legitimacy and in the process they have effectively marginalized Rabbi Tropper and Rav Eisenstein who now come across as two Charedi fanatics, crackpots and public nuisances.
Events have played into the RCA's and the Rabbanut's hands, as Tropper and EJF have a meltdown with the legal fights destroying EJF's very expensive carefully crafted public image and a corrupt and unprincipled outfit as Tom Kaplan and Guma claw at each other dragging Rabbi Tropper into every step of their exhibitionist public family feud, while the Rabbanut and RCA maturely and shrewdly step aside and say nothing as their arch-enemy Rabbi Tropper gets mauled, downgraded and made into a laughing stock by his own former disciple who himself becomes a new "darling" of Israeli causes like Nefesh BeNefesh, Israeli soccer, and more.
This is quite a story.
RaP said
ReplyDelete"What Tropper tried to do with his his EJF idea was to take it a step further and establish a totally Charedi (EJF) controlled system of batei din for conversions"
The facts don't seem to support that. Tropper was wrapping Reform in a Charedi package.
The conversions they supervised were almost universally a joke. He has no religious standards at all. Now we know that his "Charedi" conversions standards have more to do with satisfying his sexual appetites than satisfying halachic requirements. I'm sure those who have worked with him share his values. They are all disgusting.
His only interests have been thirst for power and public respect.
When Shaul Lieberman and Abraham Joshua Heschel and others took jobs at JTS, they lost their standing, even though no one questioned their personal religious practice or their lomdus. This has even happened to people who went to Yeshiva University.
ReplyDeleteWhy is the commentariat on this page not asking why R. Reuven Feinstein would leave his name with the organization after making those statments. Surely he appreciates the significance of lending his name, if for no other reason than maras haayin. The combination of his name on the organizations letterhead and his attendance at the conferences implied an endorsement.
A Satmar blog is reporting that Rav Sternbuch shlita has made a public statement seemingly intended to catch the attention of R' Reuven Feinstein that no one should associate themselves with EJF even if Tropper is no longer there. Is there a new Badatz letter to this effect?
ReplyDeleteWhen is the Eidah coming out with a clear psak. Voz iz neiz reported the Badaz ruling on Friday, many of the comments where suprise to the badaz ruling claiming they did not know about it. Additionally many of the comentors were very suportive vis the badaz position. Now is the time slay your enemay while he is struggling to breath.
ReplyDeleteRebbitzen Leiba Tropper's sister is the famous publicist Susan Blonde. She always says that she loves Michael Jackson and calls him the greatest entertainment figure of all times which is why she led the cover up of pedophile scandal.
ReplyDeleteThere are rumors that she will use all of her Madison Ave resources to cover up for Leib & Leiba.
She was once a movie actress and played the role of a mother upset that her crying infant was preventing her from talking on the phone, so she threw the baby out of the window on a high floor. What kind of a sick person would agree to take this role that she did in a movie even if it is only acting?
Maybe this is where Leib Tropper got the idea to falsely accuse Guma of threatening to throw him out the 9th storey window. Kol haposel bemumo posul.
Dina said... RaP said
ReplyDelete"What Tropper tried to do with his his EJF idea was to take it a step further and establish a totally Charedi (EJF) controlled system of batei din for conversions
The facts don't seem to support that. Tropper was wrapping Reform in a Charedi package."
That's what happens when a person takes a snippet and turns it into something. You need to catch up with what I wrote over the last two years about Tropper and EJF and you will see that there is no way I would say or imply what you think I am saying with your out of context snippet of a quote.
And I do agree with your statement that ULTIMATELY: "His only interests have been thirst for power and public respect."
But in any case, Tropper was not selling "Reform" at all. What he was doing was that OUTWARDLY he was genuinely selling an ultra-charedi EJF-style conversion, that way he could get control over as many naive and willing idealistic humans as possible, who let their minds and bodies be controlled like zombies, and then Tropper used that as he saw fit to fulfil his INWARD desires, that seem more like something from the Sabbateans and the Frankists than from Reform who do not basically even bother with conversions because statistic show that a majority of Jewish Reform members are married to gentiles and the gentiles are not required or pressed to convert while they freely attend servives at Reform temples and get public honors there.
Tropper makes Reform look like simple math compared to his mind-bending gravity-defying twisting of Jewish law and life and manipulation of vast amounts of rabbis stunts.
"What Tropper tried to do ... was to...establish a totally Charedi (EJF) controlled system of batei din for conversions, by humiliating and crushing the Rabbanut in Israel (Rav Eisenstein's job) and in the RCA in the USA (Rabbi Tropper's agenda).
ReplyDeleteSo the Rabbanut and RCA seeing the common threat, have both dusted themselves off and raised their standards and have created a united front to ward off the EJF/Rav Eisenstein/Rabbi Tropper threats to their very existence and legitimacy... "
This is a good summary of the big picture. I think this is also why, aside from the money, Tropper got so much support from the Chareidi rabbis in Israel and the Yeshivish establishment in the US. The Lakewood crowd wouldn't hold of the RCA at all, if they thought they could get away with it. After all, the RCA is basically a RIETS alumni association. The opportunity to drive the RCA off their perch was definitely one of the (many)motivations behind their support of EJF.