MISHPACHA Jewish Family
Weekly 2 Tammuz 5769
Pages 38 – 45"
RaP: Mishpacha magazine for hire continues in its path of publishing stories that promote proselytization, such as in the path with highlighting reaching out to the doubtful Subbotniks and the questionable Jews of Poland by Shavei Israel, and many such articles that seem to always land up mentioning the Anusim/Marranos in a good light, when their status is highly doubtful after 500 years of being lost.
Puerto Rico to Pupa: Rabbi Avraham Goldstein’s Journey from Delivery Boy to Ger Tzedek
By Barbara Bensoussan
With his Monsey residence; Chassidic ensemble of shtreimel, beard, and peyos; and juicy Yiddish, it’s hard to believe that Rabbi Avraham Goldstein’s roots lie in Puerto Rico. But that’s precisely where his unusual journey to Judaism began. Goldstein proceeded through a Williamsburg delivery route to an Orthodox conversion, to yeshivos in Baltimore and Brooklyn and the Pupa Chassidus. Now a violin dealer who’s made it his mission to advocate for South American geirim, he approaches all his diverse roles with an unbounded sense of joy in Judaism.
RaP: If this is all there was to his story it would be fine, but he has taken on more roles for himself than merely being a regular Jew.
"…fourteen-year-old Eduardo Torres…wanted nothing more in December of 1981 than to leave Puerto Rico and go to cold, inhospitable New York…some twenty-eight years have passed since then, but today Torres, better known in the community as Rabbi Avraham Goldstein, lives with his wife and children in Monsey, runs his own business and is ceaselessly busy helping geirim, baalei teshuvah, and anyone else who might benefit from his support."
RaP: Nowhere in this article is it made very clear who exactly gave him semicha to be ordained to undertake the rabbinical counseling and pastoral work, even though he spent time in a few yeshivas and some Chasidishe kehilas.
"Goldstein’s efforts to aid converted Jews and baalei teshuvah in South America ultimately culminated in the creation of an organization entitled Toiras Jesed [Chesed], which has the help and haskamah of Rav Chaim Eliezer Brown and Rav Yitzhak Mandel of Monroe"
RaP: What kind of "haskamah" is this? It should at least be in writing and should have been published with the article that is after all promoting this evidently proselytizing missionary cause, to give it proper Halachic legitimacy.
"Toiras Jesed even mounted a brand-new community designed specifically for geirim in the countryside of Puerto Rico
RaP: Throughout this article, the word "geirim" is used VERY loosely and ambiguously and it's very obvious that it often means people who WISH TO BECOME geirim, but who are not yet at the point where they can be Halachically and officially referred to as "geirim". In any case, why would people who have converted 100% need a separate community in far-off Puerto Rico? when almost all dayanim performing legitimate conversions insist that a gentile who has become a ger tzedek must live in a Torah community or be very near to one where geirim can lots of guidance, and not be detached from the world in a far-off Potemkin village of people who are being kept in seclusion it seems until they can become true gerim, but then, why the need to provide such a service at all isn't it according to Halacha to DISCOURAGE geirim and not to help them by building sponsored villages for them? [To continue click on this link]
FINALLY This is a very important call and message:
ReplyDeleteWho are the ones who run to make MASS CONVERSIONS in PUERTO RICO? IN POLAND? IN HUNGARY? UKRAINE? HOW MUCH MONEY IS INVOLVED TO BRING MOHALIM AND THREE DAYANIM FOR THESE MASS GERUSSEN? IS THE MTIZVAH OF SUPPORTING THE SONS IN LAW OR THEMSLVES DOCHEH INFILTRATING KLAL YISROEL WITH GOYIM?
Roni,
ReplyDeleteIf you read the whole article you would have realized that it was R' Tropper who set up the conversion factory.
I feel like Goldstein is importing some Hispanic-Christian missionary attitudes into Judaism. This is problematic. As my Rabbi always would say “Jews and non-Jews are like oil and water: we don’t mix well”.
ReplyDeleteYou can’t just go around advertising Judaism to genuine, bonafide goyim who have no need to change and convert.
Can you direct me to that part of the article? It appears to me that you have this Rabbi Goldstein who is heavily involved in it poiting at Rabbi RAbnowits and Tropper.
ReplyDeleteI know a little bit about these activities and never heard that Tropper is involved in some of this.
NEver even did Tropper ever say that he is involved with. RAbinowits could have been involved in it not as part of EJF activites! Rabinowits is no longer in EJf for a long while.
What I could also tell you is that BOMZER is sometimes summoned for these MASS COVNERSIONS in some of Latin AMErica areas. And I could also tell that Yudel Stein may also be involved in the Puerto Rico gerussin.
The article says,
ReplyDelete"In Mexico City, he claims Rabbi Jabra’s shul is the only one that allows geirim to belong. “Rav Pinchas Rabinowitz and Rav Tropper, who do conversions in Monsey, are really trying to stir things up in Mexico to make life easier for geirim,” Goldstein says…"
Click on the link to read the full article its about 2/3s of the way down.
And I could also tell that Bentziyon Wosner from Monsey is HEAVILY involved with lots of these mass gerut in LAtin America and Poland! And there are "Choshuve" mohalim who go a lot to make "parnassah" for a long time! Rabbis like Pessach Krohn and others are known mohalim to these "mass conversions".
ReplyDeleteMekubal,
ReplyDeletea few points to *verify*:
1) GOldstein did not say that tey are trying to make a "Coversion factory"; he rather said that they are trying to make life easier for ferim; i'm surprised that you infer from this that they make "gerut factories". You know that in this place gerim (even gerey emess) are not accepted in some communities.
2) Mexico Cty is a big city where porbably has tens of thousands of jews and it has observant community,
3) But the real question is: WHO MAKES AND IS HEAVILY INVOLVED IN a)***MASS GERUT*** (WHERE THEY MAKE DOZENS AT A TIME, B) in an area where there is no jewish community! at all or very little for a ger to live jewishly (like IN PUERTO RICO OR OTHER ISLANS AND PLACES IN THAT AREA) Who are the "Batey dinim" heavily involved? Who funds them? Who are the mohalim? and so on and so forth! Time to make an *accurate** homework! AS I said, I know about the names that I mentioned earlier (and I never ehard the tropper was involved in any of those areas; ON THE CONTRARY) are quite involved and some are heavily invoolved!
Mekubal,
ReplyDeletea few points to *verify*:
1) GOldstein did not say that tey are trying to make a "Coversion factory"; he rather said that they are trying to make life easier for ferim; i'm surprised that you infer from this that they make "gerut factories". You know that in this place gerim (even gerey emess) are not accepted in some communities.
2) Mexico Cty is a big city where porbably has tens of thousands of jews and it has observant community,
3) But the real question is: WHO MAKES AND IS HEAVILY INVOLVED IN a)***MASS GERUT*** (WHERE THEY MAKE DOZENS AT A TIME, B) in an area where there is no jewish community! at all or very little for a ger to live jewishly (like IN PUERTO RICO OR OTHER ISLANS AND PLACES IN THAT AREA) Who are the "Batey dinim" heavily involved? Who funds them? Who are the mohalim? and so on and so forth! Time to make an *accurate** homework! AS I said, I know about the names that I mentioned earlier (and I never ehard the tropper was involved in any of those areas; ON THE CONTRARY) are quite involved and some are heavily invoolved!
One of the main concerns is WHY the English-language Mishpacha Magazine for hire has been constantly running stories about people who are doubtfully or minimally or even not at all truly connected to properly defined Halachic Jews.
ReplyDeleteThe previous problems with Mishpacha magazine for hire that have beeen discussed on this blog were at Conversion - Subbotniks are not Jewish (February 10, 2009) about the The English language MISHPACHA magazine of 1.7.09 (11 Teves 5769) (Pages 12-13) with an article that mentions the work of Michael Freund's Shavei Israel (in fact Michael Freund himself wrote back to this blog to complain about the criticism, see Michael Freund of Shavei Israel responds to criticism (March 23, 2009)).
And then the post about RaP's criticism of proselytizing in Poland (Thursday, March 19, 2009) in Mishpacha Jewish Family Weekly Issue 248 1 Adar 5769 – 2.25.09 Pages: 32-35.
There are quite a few other stories in Mishpacha magazine for hire that somehow always manage to twist and swing stories back to geirus, the Anusim/Marranos (mostly hidden ones) and all sorts of stories like this.
The big question is: WHY?
Why is Mishpacha magazine for hire doing this?
Is it because it makes for good copy and people love these kinds of nisht-tzum-zach stories that a far from regular frum life that addds spice to an otherwise boring life of people in Flatbuch and Monsey etc?
Or is it a pure profit motive cynically taking advantage of controversial topics that the "regular" Haredi sources, like HAMODIAH and YATED would never touch? and in advertisers and self-promoters pay good money to have these stories published and they in turn generate increased readership in a niche market of sophisticated and mostly affluent English-speaking Haredi readers who have lots of discretionary income to waste (I often think I am wasting my monuey on buying the Haredi and Orthodox weeklies, but my family enjoys reading it on Shabbos) and that means that advertisers will be happy with increased attention and responses to their ads?
Or fearfully, is there an even deeper motive that the editors are not sharing with the readership, that they have an ideological agenda of sorts all their own to promote and make the regular frum oilem feel "comfortable" with proselytization in the manner that EJF's online ads try to do, while faking it that they have holier-than-thou Haredi credentials?
Time will tell, and judging by the stories they frequently publish it is ALREADY not too hard to see a fixed pattern to promote proselytization outright.
Roni, please, stop sending the same post in duplicate, you keep on doing it, it's destructive and dumb and it's known as spamming.
ReplyDeleteWe can all read you the first time around and it's a wonder that the owner of this blog keeps on letting you do it in spite of complaints to stop it.
In addition, you know when to accuse others of talking like a "broken record" but you do it all the time yourself.
In addition, it is hilarious to watch you do your loop de loop knee-jerk attacks upon Bomzer (like in the days of McCarthyism when they saw a "communist" under every rock and in every nook and cranny) the way you tie him inwith every last evil concerning conversions.
Oh, now you are also going after Yeedel Stein as well, and he also doesn't care about you and Tropper. But again, that is not the subject, because the article EXPLICITLY states (from the mouth of the ger who is the subject of the story and HE should know) that it is SPECIFICALLY Rabinowitz and Tropper helping proselytization and NOT "Bomzer & Stein" as you allege, and you even have NO shame to besmirch the name even of the highly respcted Rabbi Pesach Krohn, which just shows how desperate (and sick) you must be to sink so low, so you come here to twist the story and the facts in a fit if self-appoined (?) "damage control" and spinsmeistering when you are caught with your mentor Tropper is with his pants down in the act of being an accomplice to proselytizing as attested to in this article!
There is much in this Goldstein article that I left out and if you can get a hold of it you can see that many Litvishe Yeshivas and Chasidishe Rebbes were involved in the paths of this ger and that they are all busy with all sorts of geirim -- no wonder that Tropper is into this, it's a pure growth market and anyone in it big time can make a big splash and even cash big time from people willing to pay for and support geirus-related activities.
It's also funny to watch your knee-jerk "defenses" of Tropper even when his name is EXPLICITLY mentioned in this article as a chief macher in helping people like Goldtsien with his clear-cut proselytization efforts help with the end-production of geirim that fits like a hand into a glove into all of Tropper's and EJF's other openly advertised proselytization work that Tropper and EJF enthusiasticaly promote and undertake themselves as proven in a hundred-and-one ads on the Internet and elsewhere that EJF has clearly paid for and advertised on the Internet suing all the reources of high pwered PR agencies worthy of a goyishe presidential campaign.
RaP,
ReplyDeleteI don't think there's any reason to assign nefarious motives to Mishpacha Magazine. Their desire to sell copy is enough motivation.
The fact is, people like reading stories about individuals accomplishing massive spiritual growth against all odds. There's nothing like BT stories to provide that drama. Who doesn't like hearing about a young man who was destroying his life with sex, drugs, and rock'n roll, who discovers the beauty of Yiddishkeit and becomes a top yeshiva bachur, then an up-and-coming kollel-man. Geirus stories are just like BT stories, with an extra kick.
Even frum Jews who are generally very cautious of loose conversion standards and "diluting the stock" are very impressed by and curious about converts who are "success stories".
RAP,
ReplyDelete1)It is not a surprise that you are not looking for the truth; all you look is whether tropper is mentioned or not.
2) There is no knee jerk reastion by saying that the story did NOT say that Tropper made "Gerut factories" in Mexico city.
3) And it's about for you to stop hiding in your agenda. IF you want the truth let the truth speak. I know that there are OTHERS (not tropper) who is involved in MASS gerut in Latin America!
4) Why is Krohn more immune to criticism than Tropper? Becuase he makes brissim of goyim? If he went to latin America to pariticipate in some mass covnersion let the truth be known!
5) And should Bomzer be left out when discussing people who do mass conversions. I know people who are inside and they know that he DID partake as A Dayan in one of these MASS COVNERSIONS!
6) THe same with Yeedle Stein and anyone involved in the bus$$iness of making money trghough making mass conversions be it in Latin America or Europe.
You are the one who is looking for one target only whether it is true or false! you don't seem to care for anything else! you were and ramin an utruthful seeker.
In respone to Roni: You are not being reasonable nor are you being accurate.
ReplyDeleteIn this post I had no intention of focusing on Rabbi Tropper. On the contrary I was returning to deal with another situation, the obvious pattern in Mishpacha magazine for hire of devoting stories about proselytization that has nothing to do with Tropper of EJF. Like the two stories in the past in Mishpacha magazine for hire that I had reported about in "media monitor" fashion about the work of Michael Freund's Shavei Israel proselytizaion organization (BTW, he's Tropper's true rival and his Modern Orthodox inspired Shavei Israel = Haredi EJF) that was reported in the stories about the Subbotniks and the people in Poland, and as with this story about the Puerto Rican ger and Latin America nothing to do with Tropper and the EJF.
But it just so happened to be that in the course of dealing with this latest story about the Puerto Rican and Latin American geirim, the name of Tropper came up (I was not even the one to put that in bold type in the post, that was the blog owner's doing) but it was not the main intent of my post or the over-all critique I offered which you can read for yourself in its entirety.
Tropper was a very minor part of this story, but it is now fascinating to see how right away you sprang into action and all of a sudden you drag in Yeedel Stein and your are now shouting against ALL mohalim starting with the famous Rabbi Pesach Krohn as well, and no doubt you could point a fingure at any and all mohalim because whwich of them today are not doing brisim on converts or even on secular Jews whose families never gave them a bris as babies, and there could very well be situations of genuine safek?
Be that as it may, you also love to point the gun of the profit motive, now it's pointed at any and all mohalim, and yoiu expect the world to tremble, as if it's a "high crime and misdemeaner" and as if Tropper is not involved with thoughts of high finance and how to attain, use and enjoy mega-bucks from money-backers and how to control it to his exclusive advantage. Is he paying you for example to spend all this time defending him? Sure looks like it from your TOTAL lack of perspective and objectivity and pure partisanship for him.
Yeah, Tropper can afford to act like an "above it all" macher because he has uncle Tom Kaplan behind him, and he used to have the nephew too, but that's another (ongoing) story for now and he does not have to face the struggles for parnosah that other less fortunate klei kodesh do. How can you come here and accuse someone like Pesach Krohn who has such a good reputation? Isn't that loshen hora and rechilus starting up with yet another innocent until proven guilty party? Tropper is a known controversial commodity who fights the world, but why now drag every last mohel into his pro-EJF jihad starting with the notable and respected Pesach Krohn?
But don't flatter yourself or Tropper, as far as I am concerned, this post is about problems with MISHPACHA magazine for hire's pro-proselytization agenda, and it just so happened that Tropper landed up in this particular story too so that two birds were hit by one stone, but it was you who chose to come to this post and start a new line of arguments trying to make Tropper into the tzadik hador as usual with your over-reaction by first (deliberately?) not seeing it and then it being pointed out to you that Tropper was mentioned in this story of him cooking up a storm in Mexico, but to accuse me or anyone of making up things is totally wrong, silly, and a typical red-herring distraction coming from you!
Dear Tzurah: Thank you for your comments, however it is very clear from your own words that you miss both what Mishpacha magazine for hire is doing by show-casing stories of prosleytization and not just stories of BTs or plain geirim.
ReplyDeleteIt is quite clear that what Mishpacha magazine for hire is doing goes way beyond interesting stories about BTs and special geirim who may wish to share their stories to inspire other Jews about the beauty of Torah Judaism.
The late Jewish Observer magazine (it went defunct this year at the last Agudath Israel of America dinner when its editor was honored and the magazine was finally put to rest) over the years also published many inspiring stories about BTs and even the lengthy speeches and words of geirim at its various conventions, but it never crossed the line to promote and in effect encourage non-Halachic behavior of proselytizing and missioning to gentiles!
Many ArtScroll publications have also dealt with BT and Geirim stories but they never cross the line to push proselytization. The English Haredi weeklies like the HAMODIAH and YATED publish frequent stories about BTs, kiruv and geirim, but they never cross the red line of promoting by allowing and admiringly pushing efforts of proselytization and mass missionary efforts.
Yet, it is quite obvious that Mishpacha magazine for hire, while keeping up a front as magazine catering to the Haredi public while bilking them of a hefty fee, is pushing stories that deal with proselytization and missionizing efforts that go far way beyond anything similar Haredi publications do.
This is not about criticising the valid writings relating to inspiring stories about BTs and sincere geirim, there is definitely something more at work than mere profits here as well, because surely there must be lots of people lined up to pay to get their stories published in Mishpacha magazine for hire, yet Mishpacha magazine for hire chooses bedavka stories that portray proselytizing and missionizing as something positive.
It always manages to inject lines and comments into many of its articles sympathetic to the poor old Anusim/Marranos of 500 years ago and anyone today who may imagine that comes from them, when it has nothing to do with the story, and this all fits into a DELIBERATE EDITORIAL PATTERN reflecting a decison that someone influential heading the magazine has made to push and promote proselytization positively when they should be either ignoring such stories or writing about the DANGERS and not the implied "benefits" and "greatness" of such questionable activities.
Dear Tzurah continued: These are clear-cut, obvious, blatant and highly CONTROVERSIAL efforts by Mishpacha magazine for hire to promote mass conversionary efforts by organizations like Shavei Israel and now those of this Puerto Rican ger who as the article states:
ReplyDelete"...he formed an organization entitled 'Toiras Chesed' (or 'Toiras Jesed' in Spanish spelling) to help other geirim, particularly those from Spanish-speaking countries. 'It’s very hard for geirim in South America'...'It’s hard to find anyone to convert you'...'but in South America the options are more limited.'...'I went to Colombia for Shabbos Chanukah, invited by 150 people who want to become geirim'...'In Venezuela, there’s a group of about fifteen families living in the middle of nowhere, who learned about Torah on the Internet and all want to become Jewish. You should see them! They’re all dressed like Jews, and they look like a bunch of Sephardim'..."
which shows that he not merely just helps actual geirim but that he has crossed the line into missionizing = proseltyizing to people who perhaps wish to become geirim, when instead the correct path Halachicaly is to DISCOURAGE them or to teach them to become Bnai Noach (known as Noahides in English) who can learn lots about
the Shiva Mitzvos Bnai Noach (the Seven Noahide Laws) quite easily from the Internet. Many of these wannabe people are looking to escape their grinding poverty and miserable lives and hope to be able to be taken to Israel where they can have a higher standard of living. Perhaps there are a handful of idealists but to claim and imply as this article does that there are significant numbers of gentiles who wish to convert to Judaism out of the blue, and even worse, to create organizations and efforts to proselytize and recruit them, and even help them convert, goes against the way normative Yiddishkeit has been practiced for thousands of years.
"In this post I had no intention of focusing on Rabbi Tropper."
ReplyDeleteSo why do you care if I point out the truth that this article does NOT put Troper as the culprit in this mass conversion crime? WHy do you fly off the handle when I state that there is NOTHING about Tropper making "gerut factories" in MExico (which was the point made by someone else which I came to defend? (and you still insist after reading this article that soemhow Tropper is here associated with some kind of mass gerut or prosetyzation in MExico?!)
But be that as it may: when you write now, "...and all of a sudden you drag in Yeedel Stein and your are now shouting against ALL mohalim starting with the famous Rabbi Pesach Krohn as well, and no doubt you could point a fingure at any and all mohalim because whwich of them today are not doing brisim on converts...",
Roni: Why "All of a sudden"? Why do you think that you can criticize certain individuals and I cannot? And why do you think that you will place blame on proseltyzing of some people and I will not be able to point out how some individuals are involved in brini ng GOYIM INTO KLAL YISROEL ON A MASS SCALE?
And, even if Tropper would not be your culprit now, why do you think that Troper is entitled to be a target and a punching bag for years and other individuals WHO ACTUALLY BRING GOYIM AND ARE INVOLVED IN MASS COVNERSIONS ARE SCOTT FREE? Why should you deal with "hire articles" as the biggest crime and not allow to deal WITH THE REAL CULPRITS? Why are those people who profit from the REAL trefe FACTORY (and not from the fact that they are lucky to get involved with a wealthy person) immune from cirticism?
All of a sudden KLey kodesh" who live off from bringing goyim into klal yisroel? Why do tyou think that Pessach Krohn is immune from criticism just because he has a good reputation, does that mean that because of his good reputation he is entitled to make brissim on goyim (children of goyishe mothers converted by reform or BEyt SImchah) letting them think they are JEwish being circumcised by a an Orthodox Speaker Rabbi (and does it mean that since Tropper had agood reputation, that you were not allowed to speak loshon horah of him because "innocent until proven guilty"? by a couyrt of law that tried him in Beit DIn) . But more to the point of this discussion? Why do you think that you are entitled to interpret this story through your myopic glasses and not allow others to see them clerly as they are? RaBBi Krohn participated in some of this MASS CONVERSION GERUS IN pUERTO Rico? Why is that worthy of discussion as others are? And don't give your "red herrings"; because the discussion *here* is about the story of RAbbi GOldstein and the prosletyzing in Puerto Rico and in :LAtin AMerica. Why is Yudel's Stein activiites to make these fake mass gerut happen by sending BEit Dinim and mohalim not worthy of the discussion but a magazine who does not perform these activities and just are misguided by their perceptions of what is really happening is worthy of your ire?
NO, you concentrate all your energy on side issues, whether it is getting up in arms about someone who has connections with a wealthy inidvidual (and maybe some resentment that some others do not have this ...) and about those who write these article which is not clear whether or not they have "prosetyzing agenda" It could very well be (and it probably mostly is) that they are interesteed and think that this is some BT story). The real concern is that some individuals make MASS CONVERSIONS of goyim who do not keep torah and mitzvot and later these people might mingle with another member ofklal yisroel and intermarry! Why is the focus on the REAL concern "red herring"? As far as I"m concerned the overzealous energy overr the magazine's agenda is a red herring for the REAL concern: all the people (RAbbis, Dayanim. MOhalim ) who make BUSSINESS OF FAKE GERUT OF MASS CONVERSIONS OF BRINING GOYIM INTO KLAL YISROEL!
One of to Roni of July 3, 2009 6:02 AM:
ReplyDeleteRoni, you surely misunderstand a lot of things, and in fact I mostly agree with what you have to say in your last post of July 3, 2009 6:02 AM.
But one thing is for sure I have always followed the lead of the owner of this to base posts upon articles and posts of others to be found on the Internet. In this regard Rabbi Tropper is the victim of his own PR campaigns, and it is precisely because EJF and Rabbi Tropper have published and put out on the Internet so many articles, infomercials and held very prominent concerts, that it has brought closer scrutiny to be focused on them and on their websites and statements all over the web and in the media as they come up.
The same is true with Michael Freund and his Shavei Israel organization that has an extensive website and places many infomercials in Jewish papers to proudly advertise its activities, much like Tropper and EJF do, and which in turn causes people to notice them and it is to be expected that not all attention will be positive and uncritical.
If you want less attention tell Tropper and EJF to act more humbly and quietly it can still do its work like the CIA and the MOSSAD but you and Tropper and EJF will have to learn to work silently and NOT adevertise nor claim credit for every last act you intend to do or have done, nor should you hold public meetings and invite as many rabbis who are willing to take the free ride there.
EJF and Tropper function in the opposite direction of sod ("secret") but when they get noticed or criticised for their very open and public words they cry like some "private" bubble has been burst when it has not, alot of what they do is out in the open and a lot of people have trouble with it, not just this lone blogger.
Similalarly with Mishpacha magazine for hire, they publish articles read by the high-end Haredi public and they must expect to take both praise and criticism for articles especially when they touch on hot button controversial ones like blatant proselytization.
In the case of Rabbi Tropper and EJF the matter goes even further, because it is VERY significant that a noted posek like Rav Moshe Shternbuch, who has a wide following through all his seforim in the yeshivishe and chasidishe worlds and is a noted halachic authority, saw fit to take on and criticise Rabbi Tropper's and EJF's missions and he did so with the FULL support of a major Halachic body venerated in the entire Orthodox world, even though one might not agree with them on every last ideoligical issue, but when the BADATS issues not one but two open, public, printed and published letters denouncing EJF and calling all rabbonim to cease and desist from attending their events it is a very serious matter and that is why it has held such a central place on this blog.
The blog owner, Rabbi Dr. Eidensohn is both close with Rav Shternbuch and was permitted to act as the official translator of Rav Shternbuch's and the BADATS's original letters opposing Tropper and the EJF, which is matter that should concern every Jew, not just me...
Two of to Roni of July 3, 2009 6:02 AM:
ReplyDeleteRav Shternbuch and the BADATS have not chosen to go after Rabbi Bomzer, or Michael Freund of Shavei Israel, or anyone in the field of proselytization so obviously it is their da'as Torah that deems Tropper and EJF to be the biggest threat of all in the greater scheme of things so please take up your complaints with the people who started it all with your silly attempts to create new red herring distractions by talking about Yeedel Stein, Rabbi Pesach Krohn, mohalim, and whoever else you like (now you are wasting your time discussing me, enjoy but it is not to the point).
Again, you say important stuff, but you are too hot-headed and partisan. Your words often read as garbled and desperate. You did a poor job of coming up with what turned up to be a forged English letter from Rav Eisenstein and the nine other rabbis against Bomzer, you have still not produced the original Hebrew version, so you have lost a lot of credibility especially now when all of a sudden when Tropper gets mentioned in an article you go overboard and fire at the names of Pesach Krohn, and Yeedel Stein, and of course Bomzer all over again as, what else, your notorious red herring distractions when they are not even mentioned in this article.
If you have some reliable sources or web links or articles that mentions their names in relation to this stuff, then please cite them. That is the way the blog owner and I try to do things based on the other's person's own words and arrive at conclusions using one's brain, somewhat like solving a big puzzle.
Unlike you/Tropper/EJF, people like Bomzer/Yeedel Sten and now Pesach Krohn do not advertise every last move they make in arrogant fashion, and they cleverly do not have websites and do not issue infomercials to tell the world how great they are.
Maybe you/Tropper/EJF can learn something from them after all?!
RAP,
ReplyDeleteAfter your long treatises, as usual, it does not begin to explain:
1) Are you a talmid muvhak of Ra Sterrnbuch to paken like him against all other Gedoyley Yisroel who do not harbor the negative outlook that you have about Tropper to justify the loshono horoh campaign that you undertook on yourself against him? The fact tha he put's himself in the open (tropper) does not justify AL PI EMESS AND TORAh THE staunch loshon horah camapign unless you are convinced that AL PI TORAH you have to do so? Of this to be al pi torah, you must be either convinced on your OWN THAT THE TRUTH is like your idea or you are a staunch talmidof said possek. I t does not seem taht yuo are talmid muvhak of RAv Sternbuch in all areas of Halacha (and as shown for insntace converts ijtermarried peole who do not observe, have ALL their conversions rechecked before ANY OF THEIR CONVERTS GET MARRIED!, so that your comments regarding the gerut of Bomzer in the past run against that ruling, which shows that uyou are far far from a talmid muvhak of Rav Sternbuch), so it must be that you are convinced (and you trhink you are entitled to that) that the truth allows you to fight against him even trough engaging in a tremendous loshon horoh war, (the fact that he publicizes his campaigns does not justify loshono horoh against him if you are not convinced that the truth is adamantly on yuor side),
SO, why is the TRUTH not your guide in other areas, by REAL CONCERNS? And even if you think that they do not attention by publicizing about it, why is the not the intrinsic danger of what they do subject to call the public attention of their dangerous activities? Is that only because they donot publicize it" that the danger does not exist? AL pi TOrah one may speak loshono horah leafrushey meissuroh and to call people attention that this goes on to let the person who does that stop his ways,
So why do you think that when I know about these activities that I am not entitled guided by the Torah and Halacha to speak about it? Where is it say in *Halacha* (not in AMeerican Jurisprudence) that if someone is doing a dangerous activity that I cannot speak against him to attention of the people if he does not publicize about it?
And what is more astonishing that to go on a Magazine for it's misjudgement on how they word their articles (which I happen to agree with you that they crossed the line) and go on with such a vehemence about subtly endorsing mass conversions, and yet THOSE WHO ACTUALLY ARE THE PARTNERS OF THE MAASS CONVERSIONS ARE NOT ALLOWED TO BE CALLED UPON THEIR CRIMINAL ACTIVITIY? (just because they did not put it in the paper)?
Btw, I will ntot allow you to repeat the usual LIE that the BOmzer wasd"FORGED". It was not forged; it was signed by all those people who signed and furthermore even those who clarifiied the meaning of the signature AFFIRMED AND EXPLAINED THEIR SIGNING!
In any event:Anyone who is involved in actions that esdpecially TOUCH UPON KLAL YISROEL and BRING GOYIM INTO IT'S MIDST are open to criticism if they conntravene Shulchan Oruch in a way that put's in danger klal yisroel's kedushah andintegrity.
So, just because one is known speaker does not minmize the danger; on the contrary it intensifies it. When discussing those who do MAS CONVERSIONS, it is enough to copy and paste some article and conctrate on the magazine's agenda; itis important to DO THE HOMEWORK and find out who are the people actually involved in commiting this FRAUD. EWhether it 's kley kedesh who need paranaassha does NOT MINIMIZE THE FRAUD; ON THE CONTRARY IT INTENSIFIES IT!
In short AL pi Torah: I"m obliged to speak what I know to be truth when it endangers klal yisroel whether the danger is publicized or not; and al pit torah one IS NOT ALLOWED to rail and speak loshon horah on others unless he is convinced that the other is doing wrong which can be in one of two ways: either he knows for a certainty to be so or he follows a Rabbi in all of his ruling to be able to follow him also on this.
In addition to the questions and points made earlier about the *real *halachik* rulings about Loshon horah (when it is ossur and when it is mutar and when it is necessary) and to what are *real concerns* and to what are secondary concerns (things that you lack trmendously on both counts), I will also point out, that your jumping at Tropper to attack my defense on him (on something that you should ahve retracted for the article does not not say that he was anyway involved in the mass covnersions described in the story, in MExico City), why do you think that what Mishpacha writes about something in the name of someone else (not Troppper - but Rabbi GOldstein) gives you the right to attacak Rabbi Tropper according to your own (misguided) principles? After all, he hasn't written or paid for that article in the MIshpacha. So for you to attack him , as you continued to defend (that it came into your lap)your knee jerk reaction at my defense of him, on something someone else wrote about him goes AGAINST your now new rule that you only deal with issues someone writes and try to unsolve the puzzle based on that, for that would not allow you to attack soeoone based on some vague comments made by another on him, especially that you did not bother to verify the nature of what was actually written.
ReplyDeleteAt the end I work and target the TRUTH (not what someone writes or does not write). I don't care so much with a suble misjudgment of a Magazine's article as to the REAL CONCERNS BASED ON THE TRUTH THAT I KNOW IT.
If you are guided by truth and the *issues* bother you, you would look for them and they would come screaming to you: Anyone who knows someone involved in the Gerut in Latin America will tell you that the names BOmzer/Krohn/Yddele Stein/RAv Bentziyon Wosner are people who either area or were involved in some MASS CONVERSION in those areas! If truth is the lightning rod and if one wants to prevent such occurrences in the future one is to alert about them. Writing about the flaws of the mishpacha article will not carry any attention to the people to alert others to stop these averos chamuros.
And btw, unlike your insinuations: RABBI TRPPER IS NOT INOLVED IN MASS GERUT IN PUERTO RICO OR LATIN AMERICA OR ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD! to Claim otherwise or to insinuate otherwise is MOTZI SHEM ROH AND SHEKER!
Roni,
ReplyDeleteFirst and foremost you have very valid concerns. Gerut factories are problematic on a multitude of levels. They damage individuals. They damage Klal Yisrael. They are possibly also a cause of antisemitism. I completely agree with you on that. I also completely agree that those issues need to be discussed.
Concerning Mohalim. I don't see a problem if they cut people by the millions. While the cut is a step in the process it is not Geirut. According to the Sh"A that is why we do it before teveila, as teveila constitutes the actual Geirut. Thus I think the mohalim should be left out of this discussion. They are neither expert on the laws of Geirut nor are they expected to be. Essentially they are highly specialized surgeons that do a job. It should also be noted that mohalim have circumcised the British Royal family for the last three generations. If they need parnassah and a supposed Rav who claims to be expert in those laws.
The problem, and those we should be discussing in my opinion are the Rabbanim and Dayyanim that for whatever reason feel the need to try to proselytize. People like Asher Meza.
However one thing you said which is not true.And btw, unlike your insinuations: RABBI TRPPER IS NOT INOLVED IN MASS GERUT IN PUERTO RICO OR LATIN AMERICA OR ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD! to Claim otherwise or to insinuate otherwise is MOTZI SHEM ROH AND SHEKER! To be honest and fair R' Tropper is involved in Geirut around the world, and especially in the US and Europe. To say that he is not anywhere in the World is simply not true.
It looks like again previous post (which was a little longer -or another reason?) didn't get through):
ReplyDeleteTHe idea is: Everything that one does must be guided by *halacha*! and Truth of Torat EMESS. So too, by speaking loshon horah and attacking others, one is guided by the issues, are the issues serious CONCERNS that must be alerted or attacked according to Torah or not.
It is understood that the truth is recahed either: a) When one folows halachik ruling by one's RAV MUVHAK, ie one's Rabbi that he follows him in all matters then Torat EMET orders him to follow him in all matters. It becomes the TRUTH about the issue.
If however, the fellow is NOT the Rav Muvhak then it follows that the person must reach the truth after he is convinced that he studied the area of concern according to Torah She BAALpeh and he assessed and learned the facts with all it's details then he can and should attck and alert others about the concern that he is raising.
SO, after all your treatise and explanation about the rationale why you feel that you are enetitled to attack Tropper in the manner that reaches past Loshon Horoh and receives a "metzuyan" for that, must be for eith of the reasons above.
I fail to see the justification for that: Being that although Rav Sternbcuh and BaDAtz are Rabbonim that attacked Tropper, nevertheless they do not seem to be your rabbonim muvhakim. And therefore they cannot be those whom you can rely to go ona rampgage of losohon horah against him, as you have MOST RABBONIM AND GEDOYLEY HAPOSSKIM who, not only do NOT condmen him, but they speak favorably of him and they partake with him in his events. So they do NOT share the concerns that BaDAtz has and therefore being that most dfisagree with BaDAtz over the concerns and being that you are not a talmid muvhak of Rav Sternbch (s evidenced by the fact that you defend Rabbis HB for doing "lenient" covnersion when HARAv Sternbuch writes that people who performs conversions as his, should have their covnersion chcekd on every single person that comes forward to rabbonim to marty them for those gerut are meaningles and a danger to klal yisroel).
So the only ustification for your loshon horah would be if you would study the issue al pi torah and see how that al pi halacha that deserves the method of loshon horah about the peron. I fail to see how you reached that level after all the treatises that you have written about it.
and most importantly now: You think that just because Tropper or soemone writes an articlepublicly that gives you the right to lash out at him as you see fit. IT appears that Halacha and whether or not there are other opinions and whether or not this is a grave concern inherently or intirinsically is not as important as the fact that the guy wrote publically and was "arrogant" thatis enough for you to lash at him whether or not TRUTH CLAIMS THAT YOUR DISPROPORTIONAE RESPONSE (eVEN ACCORDING YOUR FLAWED OPINION) is valid.
to be continued
However one thing you said which is not true.And btw, unlike your insinuations: RABBI TRPPER IS NOT INOLVED IN MASS GERUT IN PUERTO RICO OR LATIN AMERICA OR ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD! to Claim otherwise or to insinuate otherwise is MOTZI SHEM ROH AND SHEKER! To be honest and fair R' Tropper is involved in Geirut around the world, and especially in the US and Europe. To say that he is not anywhere in the World is simply not true.'
ReplyDeleteRev Mekubal the key word here was "MASS GERUT"!
Ie when someone goes to a place to make 33 converts at once. and then he will repat the same or more 4 months later. RAv Tropper does NOT do that!
Rav tropper does not make MASS GERUT ANYWHERE! There is no palce in the Us (FLorida or Jeersey or what have you) that he makes MASS GERUT AND HAS A COLLECTIVE COVNERSION OF EVEN TEN PEOPLE AT ONCE ANYWHERE IN THEE WORLD (SOMETHING WHICH SAID RABBIS: PK, RBW, YS< HB make).
Furthermore for accuracy: Rav Tropper does not even have a Beis Din in MExico (as of now).
Furthermore:
About Mohalim:
ReplyDeleteWhile mohalim are mohalim, I peronally have no problem whatsover when they cut non jews for making a surgery! The problem is when they do a "Brit milah" a JEwish ceremony to accept the baby as Jewish amongs tthe Khal Yisrael. The assembled at the ceremony clearly see this as an endorsmenet that the baby is JEwish! So when a mohel circumcizes a child of a non jewish mother, and a jewish father, when the mother is certainly not jewish (like reform or conservative gerut) then he is not only "cutting" but also clearly stating to the assembled tha tthe kid is JEwish and giving aJEwish name The MOhel is responsible for this!
Rav ELyashiv ruled that if the the child is certainly not Jewish that the mohel cannotperform this Bris. Ask Rav Eisenstein. (If there is a doubt -safek gerut or the like, then Rav ELyashiv holds that the mohel should do the brit)
While
I'm all for the mohel to use his expertise in surgery especially if needs to support his son in law in kolel, nevertheless to use this when he is giving a stamp of approval that the child is Jewish is assur. He is not a mere by stander; he is officiating and making the kid JEWISH in the eyes of the observers an dmay lead to michsholim that others think that the kid is accepted as a Jew even by the "Rabbi".
part two to rap:
ReplyDeleteI don't have the time; i'll try to be brief to the point regarding this ost: when dicussing MASS GERUT it is ridiclous in my eyes and ion the eyes of AANALYZING THE TRUTH to analyze it and discuss it and attack magazine articles and their misjudgments over the issue, for they obviously are the main culprits. And no matter how much you claim that you will use your brain to solve the puzzle you will never scratch the surface of finding the real truth of WHO AND HOW MASS GERUT IS DONE IN LATIN AMERICA AN EUROPE? The real culprits are theindividuals who are oyssek in the etzem thing! Who funds them? What drives them? Who particiaptes? These involves manpower? If you are interested about changing the situation the only thing is to speak about the etzem inyan and if the truth is that such and such an idividual is involved in it, let the outside know that they are involved and perhaps public opinion and speech will stop or minimize their activiity.
to be continued...
Mekubal,
ReplyDeleteAS i was trying to write and post (I don't know why it did not go through):
While R' Tropper works with Batei Dinim in the USa, he does NOT perform MASS CONVERSIONS. MAss conversions is meant when a large number of gerim are performed AT ONCE AS A WHOLESALE! Wheread the issue under the present discussion relates to making WHOLESALE MAS CONVERSIONS where the RRAbbi and MOhalim come as a lage group ( three dayanim and a few mohalim!) to make tens of converts at once. Usually this is also done in places where there is community whatsover or almost no jews in the area (and certainly not more than a few observant jews at most) and they make conversion of people who will reside there and have almost no means whatsover to emulate an observant community how to behave as Jews.
Hi Roni, thank you for sharing. Many of your points are indeed valid. Just a few reactions. Does one have to be a talmid muvhak of the RAMBAM or of any gadol or of the mecahber of a sefer to agree with or have a serious question or kashye about what he says in any of his sefarim? Is this what they teach in any yeshiva?
ReplyDeleteIt is also interesting that you wish to keep on distracting attention from the article's mention of Tropper and Rabinowitz by starting up more red herring dead-end distracting debates about Pesach Krohn and what mohalim should be doing.
Now, you keep on denying a fact that was established in person by one of our most reliable and distinguished posters, mekubal himself when you claim that: "Btw, I will ntot allow you to repeat the usual LIE that the BOmzer wasd"FORGED". It was not forged; it was signed by all those people who signed and furthermore even those who clarifiied the meaning of the signature AFFIRMED AND EXPLAINED THEIR SIGNING!"
So let me remind you of what mekubal himself reported, and these are his exact words, not mine. The post in question where mekubal reported the forgery was at Rabbi Bomzer's ban signatories - retract:
mekubal said (February 20, 2009 4:45 PM)
"The birth of my second daughter two days ago provided reason and excuse for a private visit with R' Eisenstein, and being that it was a private visit I felt that I could ask him some pointed questions about EJF/Tropper without impinging on Kavod Rav, as I felt it would be if I were to do it when he comes around Kollel.
My questions were the following:
1) The extant of his involvement with EJF/Tropper
2) His endorsement/support of EJF/Tropper
3) Conversion as an option for intermarrieds
4) The Bomzer letter.
The following are his answers...
4) Concerning the Bomzer letter there was initially some confusion. When it finally became clear that the version that I saw(and that is posted here) is in English, he denied ever seeing or signing an English letter. He said that the only letter he and the other Rabbanim signed was in Hebrew. He said the R' Tropper insisted that there be an English version, and was supposed to supply a Translation for the Rabbis to review and sign. He said that he had never seen the letter and thus never signed it. He said specifically, "I am from Chicago, I know how to write my name in English. If I were to sign an English letter, I would sign it in English." When I pointed out the an English letter does exist with his signature on it, he said "Welcome to the age of Photo-Shop, I have seen people with Semicha from the GR"A."
I did ask who he thought could be behind it, and he would only comment, "it is something that needs investigation.
February 20, 2009 4:45 PM"
Now Rabbi Eidensohn/da'as torah who is the owner of this blog knows who mekubal is and he obviously trusts and respects him (you too function under an anonymous name, so that is not an issue) and you cannot BOTH be telling the truth, which means that someone is lying, either you or mekubal, certainly not me, I just choose to go with mekubal's version of events.
In response to some points made by RAP:
ReplyDeleteRAP wrote: "Does one have to be a talmid muvhak of the RAMBAM or of any gadol or of the mecahber of a sefer to agree with or have a serious question or kashye about what he says in any of his sefarim? Is this what they teach in any yeshiva?",
Roni: If one is *learning* torah he does not need to be talmid muvhak of said Godol Beyisroel to "agree" ot to have "Serious" question about what said Godl said; but when one decides to make a FIGHT and especially public, against someone for the other's way of conduct he must have full right to his way of conduct, espcialy when he is fighting a war that contains a high level of loshon horoh. that requires a that a person be either Talmid muvhok who is mechuyov o follow his REbbe's directives who directed him to wage this war or he highly convinced and he is able to expalin to others why he is justified. This does not happen in our case.
2) Rap also wrote: "It is also interesting that you wish to keep on distracting attention from the article's mention of Tropper and Rabinowitz by starting up more red herring dead-end distracting debates about Pesach Krohn and what mohalim should be doing".
Raoni: I find your comments "distracting". In my opinion this thread began wit the story of missinoizing and prosetyzing and mass conversions in Puerto Rico that was containedin the mishpacha article.
I found it an important article to call attetnion to thepeople who according to my information (and I have some reliable information) the individuals I mentioned are or werre highly involved in one capacity or another. I feel that THIS is the most important part of the story: THAT ALL THOSE INOLVED IN THIS TERIBLE AVERA SHOULD BE EXPOSED AND SHOULD BE STOPPED BY THEIR COLLEAGUES AND FRIENDS AND BY PUBLIC PRESSURE.
Then someone inserted the Troper connection. I felt that *this* was a *distraction* for he was not and IS NOT involved in MASS CONVERSIONS in puerto IRco (he is mentioned *incidentally* about making gerim feel good in MExico CITy! NOTHING TO DO WITH PRSELTYZING IN LATIN AMERICA).
So poiting the fingers about the proseltyzors: (bomzer, Krohn, WOsner, Stein) is not a "distraction"; THEY ARE THE POINT OF THIS THEAD! the mass covnersions in Latin America (and Europe)!
3)Forgery in BOmzer's letter: Whoever mekubal is etc. *i* KNOW RAV EISENSTEIN: THE LETTER IS *NOT* FORGED! PERIOD!
Best regards!
MEkubal,
ReplyDeleteJust one more remark at the issue of miloh in the GErut:
While the cut is a step in the process it is not Geirut. According to the Sh"A that is why we do it before teveila, as teveila constitutes the actual Geirut".
Roni: According to Sh"a actually the mechaber recordds one opinion in siman 268 YD that even by milah (not only tevilah) a kosher beis din and the time of the day (time kosher to judge) should be meakev for the milat gerut:
ולהרי"ף ולהרמב"ם, אפילו בדיעבד שטבל או מל בפני שנים יז] או בלילה, מעכב, ואסור בישראלית, יא
In addition: Chazal insituted a cracha for the milah of gerim: "lamul es hagerim" which also indicates that this is part of the process of gerut.
therefore the milah in the gerut according to them is an indispenable partof the *gerut* process! (which adds in teh deception of a "mohel" who uses the circumcision of Gerut to deceive people and the world at alrge that the people they are circumcizing are "Gerim" when they are GOYIM GMURIM!
Roni says that "3)Forgery in BOmzer's letter: Whoever mekubal is etc. *i* KNOW RAV EISENSTEIN: THE LETTER IS *NOT* FORGED! PERIOD!"
ReplyDeleteJust because you "know" Rav Eisenstein does not mean that letter in question letter was "not" forged, because there is no connection between "knowing" someone and "denying" that a document was forged.
It is just a word game and you are avoiding dealing with the truth because you were the one that passed on the forged letter to Rabbi Eidensohn while poster mekubal personally went to check on it and found that Rav Eisenstein knew nothing about an ENGLISH letter like this with his photoshopped "signature" on it yet, he only knew of a HEBREW original one that he had signed, while he had NOT signed ANY English letter like the one you trickily passed on to Rabbi Eidensohn.
This makes it very clear that the choice is as I had mentioned it, either poster Roni OR poster mekubal is telling the truth and one is definitely not.
Furthermore, if one goes by mekubal's version of events and as he says Rav Eisenstein told him that the original letter is in Hebrew and NOT English, where is that original letter, and are there any significant differences between the original Hebrew letter and the English version that Roni chose to hoodwink Rabbi Eidensohn with when he sent it to him for posting on this blog?
It may well be that the original Hebrew letter is entirely different or makes different points than what Roni/Tropper chose to concoct and underhandedly pass on to Rabbi Eidensohn and that is why he has kept it hidden and forged an English one instead using photoshop as attested to by Rav Eisenstein according to poster mekubal's personal investigation into the matter.
This is an excellent but sorry example of the loss of credibility that Roni/Tropper suffered on this blog that was even confirmed when two of the alleged signatories Rabbi Moshe Soloveitchik of Chicago and Rabbi Naftoli Burstein of Cleveland retracted their signatures to the forged letter the way it was put out and were put in the awkward situation of having to explain the embarrasment of their names being used in a manner they never intended: Rabbi Bomzer's ban signatories - retract (February 18, 2009).
I have already dealt with this at length in an earlier post and I do not wish to repeat my words again, see A closer look at "A statement of clarification" from Rabbi Moshe Soloveitchik of Chicago and Rabbi Naphtoli Aryeh Burstein of Cleveland. (February 20, 2009 5:22 AM)
FOr information anonymous 6:21 was and is Roni
ReplyDeleteRAP:
ReplyDeleteI
For brrevity (to answer long treatises) know that Rav Eisenstein states that the letter (in it's ENTIRETY) was NOT forged!
To Mekubal etc.
ReplyDeleteA short reference from Rav Kook tha prohibits circumcising a goy when it is not for (Serious and real ) gerut, since people will think that the baby is JEwish:
אבל למול שלא לשם גירות ובלא שום ברכה, אע"ג די"ל דהעיקר הוא כדעת הש"ך (סי' רס"ג סק"ח), מ"מ ודאי נפיק מיני' חורבא שיחזיקוהו לישראל,
for information 4:09 was and is Roni
ReplyDeletePart 1 of 2: Roni/Anonymous said... "RAP: I For brrevity (to answer long treatises) know that Rav Eisenstein states that the letter (in it's ENTIRETY) was NOT forged!"
ReplyDeleteAgain Roni plays word games and tries to wiggle out of the truth by lawyering as he retorts that all of a sudden he is overcome with a desire for "brevity" which is way odd since Roni/Tropper have of late been flooding this blog with mind-numbing verbiage and clogging it up worse than a backed up sewer with vile language at his opponents and double posts in effect spamming this blog to near-death in the hope of creating a smokescreen for any points that are not in in his/Tropper's favor, as in this case a clear-cut report from one of the most reliable posters on this blog mekubal who personally asked Rav Eisenstein directly about the English letter and Rav Eisenstein said flat out he had never heard of it, even CLEARLY stating how his signatute was FORGED (cutting and pasting is a forgery in this case Roni) on it by someone using photoshop, (and it was not the tooth fairy).
Then Roni/Tropper has the audacity (of which he has plenty, that's why he was chosen to make nuisance of himself on this blog) to come up with this gem: "Rav Eisenstein states that the letter (in it's ENTIRETY) was NOT forged!"
Now what is that supposed to mean, that only "part" of the letter was forged but not its "entirety"? Like if there was a robbery and some goods were left over by the robber then it is "not a robbery in its entirety"? This is called a pervesrion of logic and the truth a technique often used by lawyesr to twist words and to create a kind of "double-speak" ambiguity than can perhaps zing a less than bright jury, but who does Roni take for fools on this blog?
From Rav Eisenstein's own words as reported byposter mekubal, this is not hearsay, it's mipi ha'ish, it is clear that the 10 rabbis' signatures, which are in HEBREW, were in all probability part of the original HEBREW letter (but noone can know for sure because so far it has NOT been shown to the world for verification) while the part that is written in ENGLISH on the ENGLISH anti-Bomzer letter come from another production presumably created by Tropper himself.
So that sure, the HEBREW signatures THEMSELVES are not "entirely forged" because the signatories signed those on a supposed HEBREW letter (that Rav Eisenstein did admit to, to mekubal) HOWEVER those HEBREW signatures were then transposed and pasted (by cutting and pasting) onto, and printed up with, the notorious ENGLISH letter in question which then means that the ENGLISH letter as it stands is a 100% a forgery because it is 100% logical to conclude that:
(a) the signatories only supposedly signed a Hebrew letter;
(b) this is supported by Rav Eisenstein's words who is on record that he only signed an original HEBREW letter, unlike poster Roni/Tropper who transmitted an ENGLISH letter with HEBREW signatures that according to one of the MAIN signatories (Rav Eisenstein) was NOT signed by him in ENGLISH. Rav Eisenstein stresses to poster mekubal in person, that he knows how to sign his name in ENGLISH and that in this case he did NOT do so, just read mekubal's report;...
Part 2 of 2: Roni/Anonymous said... "RAP: I For brrevity (to answer long treatises) know that Rav Eisenstein states that the letter (in it's ENTIRETY) was NOT forged!"
ReplyDelete(c) this is further supported by the fact that in addition, two of the signatories whose HEBREW signatures appear on the the ENGLISH anti-Bomzer letter, Rabbis Moshe Soloveitchik of Chicago and Naftoli Burstein of Cleveland, issue a NEW letter of "clarification" in ENGLISH which they sign in ENGLISH (sending a not so subtle message and IMPLIED rebuke to Tropper) and thereby proving that they too know how to read, write and sign their names in ENGLISH, (just like Rav Eisenstein does) praising Bomzer in ways that the original ENGLISH anti-Bomzer letter presumably concocted by Tropper, could not and did not, with Rabbis Moshe Soloveitchik and Naftoli Burstein OBVIOUSLY trying to steer a more moderate diplomatic path in this specific conversion imroglio (brought about by Tropper's hatred and obsession with Bomzer) while subscribing to higher standards in geirus. Therefore:
(e) the conclusion has to be that the set of signatures at the bottom of the ENGLISH letter come from an as yet still not presented and even proven similar HEBREW letter, and
(f) the ENGLISH letter was composed and was NOT signed by ANY rabbis in real life (THIS IS WHERE THE FORGERY IS WORST), and that is why the signatures on it are in HEBREW because they come (by the use of photoshop) from the HEBREW letter. Therefore, finally:
(g) the ENGLISH anti-Bomzer letter is a TOTAL forgery because at least THREE rabbis (Eisenstein, Soloveitchik, Burstein) saw fit to clarify that they were NOT signatory parties to the ENGLISH letter and whoever put it together created a FORGERY and is therefore an outright forger and liar.
To make the absurd clain that "the letter (in it's ENTIRETY) was NOT forged!" is akin to claiming that someone is only "a little pregnant".
But we can see that poster Roni/Tropper is just trying to figure out how he can obscure even this obvious truth and misdeed with a new round of verbiage, red herring arguments, spamming this page, questioning the credentilas of anonymous posters when he has never posted his own credentials and right to quote and twist reams of words and be megale panim baTorah shelo keHalacha yet again.
After the other long chollent of RAP:
ReplyDeleteRAv Eisenstein signed on the english version that was sent and spread to many rabbonim.
Rav Soloveitchik and Burstein signed that anyone performing marriages of people converted by BOmzer should check: if they do not observe they SHOULD NOT perform the marriage. And they also stat that according to Rav Elyashiv one cannot perform the marriage of *any* of Bomzer's present conveison (As he is a passul dayan).
While Rap is usually concerned with externalities and vulgarity and chollents; he twists the essential message: ALL SIGNED THAT RABBONIM NOT PERFORM WEDDING CEREMONIES TO BOMZER'S CONVERTESS.
Roni wrote:
ReplyDeleteRAv Eisenstein signed on the english version that was sent and spread to many rabbonim.
===================
Roni - the simple way to settle this issue is to send me the original Hebrew version for posting.
What is a "passul dayan" and who gets to decide?
ReplyDeleteAccording to Rav Eisenstein ALL Modern Orthodox dayanim are "possul" if they wear colored suits/shirts and possibly believe that creation may take place in more than literally six days (he alleged to have the support --UNPROVEN -- of Rav Eliashiv for this too), see Rabbi Gil Student's posts at:
"Conversion and the Age of the Universe (November 09, 2007) ... at this week's conference of the Eternal Jewish Family, R. Nachum Eisenstein announced from the podium that R. Yosef Shalom Elyashiv told him that any rabbi who believes that the world is more than approximately 6,000 years old is a heretic and may not perform conversion (link). I have confirmed the essence of the story -- that R. Eisenstein said such a thing to the audience. I have not confirmed whether R. Elyashiv actually told him that... It seems clear to me that the Modern Orthodox rabbinate has, with this statement, been largely shut out from the ongoing talks about conversion standards. Perhaps this is a good thing. But what about the moderate Charedi rabbinate?..." and see More Conversion Developments II (December 06, 2007) and more at Conversion and the Age of the Universe II (November 14, 2007)
So the point is that it is NOT "just" Bomzer that is "passul" according to Tropper and Rav Eisenstein but EVERY last Modern Orthodox and Religious Zionist dayan whom they have chosen to target as a group that they hate.
All in the name of "raising standards" and "Universal standards" mind you which are just codewords for imposing "one" strict interpretaion of Halacha when there ARE in fact other more moderate ways, that while Tropper and Rav Eisenstein may hate it, they do not have the monopoly on the truth and certainly not of Halacha.
It is time for Tropper and Rav Eisenstein to back off (Rav Amar has already started cracking down on Rabbi Sherman who works in tandem with Rav Eisenstein), and stop trying to control the universe; Tropper should stop faking it with his double talk, while at EJF concerts he brings rabbis together for "higher standards", yet in real life and on the Internet he promotes an agenda that goes way beyond what even any Modern Orthodox rabbi would suggest of proselytizing to millions of gentiles hitched to Jews and to billions of gentiles who may have some long lost and long gone "Jewish eancestry". All of this is on record and has been noted and posted in the media, on the Internet, and on this blog multiple times.
Working link for rabbi Gil Student's post about: Conversion and the Age of the Universe (November 09, 2007)
ReplyDeleteTropper,
ReplyDeleteWhile you complain about other people making paranosa from Geirus/Bris, could you tell us your source of income which maintains you highlife lifestyle ? Do get money from the keiruv business or from being head of the EJF ? Do you have Kaplan credit card ? do you first pay and then ask him to reimburse you?, do you still have your house as part of the yeshiva ? good trick to avoid paying property tax
1) MOnsey R, there is no parnossa from FALSE GERIM!
ReplyDelete2)RAP: I thought this threrad is about prosetyzing (the one who speaks of "disttractionS"); all of sudden the guy is attaking EIsenstein.
3) the issue (back to the subject) is: bomzer brings goyim to klal yisroel by making false gerim. KROhn, and CO. make parnossoh of fake gerim. And so many others. Troper stops these shenanigans.
Roni, the point is that you/Tropper produced a forged English letter with the letterhead of Eisenstein's organization that Eisenstein himself admitted to poster mekubal that he (Eisenstein) did not sign, he spoke of a Hebrew letter but not of the English one against Bomzer that you underhandedly passed along for posting on this blog. So Eisenstein is still very much part of this discussion, especially since in addition to having false letters forged in his name by you/Tropper, he also engages in vicious warfare against the entire Modern Orthodox RCA and Religious Zionist rabbinates and he does not just pick on Bomzer because his goals are more far-reaching than just targeting Bomzer but he aims to wipe the Modern Orthodox and Religious Zionist rabbinates off the face of the Earth.
ReplyDeleteThese are the type of people, waging an all out "holy war" against hundreds of thousands if not millions of Jews who identify with Modern Orthodoxy and Religious Zionism that Eisenstein and Tropper plan to destroy using the issue of "geirus" to prove how "holier than thou" they are when all they are proving is that they are worthy of being professional mafiosos since they care little about crushing their perceived Modern Orthodox/Religious Zionist rabbinic opponents, destroying the lives of countless people if that is what it takes by employing bulldozers like Sherman to shoot down every last conversion they hate (even Rav Amar now thinks Sherman has gone too far and has ordered to stay out of conversion rulings), and in the process they are creating a mass chillul Hashem that will gain them nothing and will just add to the fuel of the Conversion Wars that need to be settled by NEGOTIATIONS and DIALOGUE between all the ORTHODOX/HAREDI rabbis who need to be talking to each other like mentschen and not tearing at each other the way Eisenstein and Tropper are going about it. But unfortunately for the Jews these are notions and methods that are alien to hot-headed incendiery confrontationlists like Tropper and Eisenstein.
Therefore, this is all very much part of one subject and there are no "distractions" -- the distraction now happens when you (Roni) have learned a new monkey see-monkey do trick to shout "distraction, distrations" at others when you find what they have to say is too tough to deal with in an honest and open way. So you call clear logic "chollents" and being rational and factual as "distractions". Shame on you!
"Troper stops these shenanigans."
ReplyDeleteHe doesn't. He just makes a fool of himself.
It brings out the worst in him when he takes on the role of a self-appointed cruel and heartless Charedi "police-man" causing countless people to hate and despise him and to abandon Yiddishkeit because they see him as the prime "example" of the worst sort of Charedism possible.
This is not the way to solve problems in klal yisroel. Why doesn't Tropper try chasing sex offenders in the Haredi world, or men who make their wives suffer by making them into agunas, or kashrus fraud, or the deep undercurrent of sexual immorality that produces mamzerim and halachically compromised or broken marriages in the frum world?
Picking on people looking for conversions is an easy target, they can't fight back.
And using those rabbis in the Modern Orthodox and Religious Zionist world who are involved in conversions as pawns in a geostrategic game of beating Modern Orthodoxy and Religious Zionism into the ground is an even more dastardly and disgraceful ploy befitting machiavellians and not supposed rabbis concerned with "universal standards" for conversions which in any case is just a code word for impose the highest and most difficult standards as if they were the only ones when there are other more moderate Halachic ways.
But of course, Tropper and Eisenstein could never stomach such an approach of my-way-or-the-highway.
1) I know that Eisenstein knows that he signed on the English letter as well.
ReplyDelete2) I know that Rav Eisenstein and many other Rabbis fights corrupted GErus by fake megayrim who bring Goyim into klal yisroel. Whether or not he ahas another agenda does not interest me; as it does interest me in this juncture now, wehether or not DT or RAP (as it is clear to any objective observer) has an agenda and personal motiv to fight Tropper as vengeeancae for some thing in the past. what is of interest is that he unvovers and alerrts people that dayanim like bomzer (and there are many) do convert many people without any shred and semblanceof KAbblaat Hamtizvot. Yasher Koach to him on this and shame on all those who fight him on this war with herring distractions (About war on MO and the like).
3) there is no "dialogue" about accepting non jews as JEws. Truth and sheker cannot find compromise on that.
4) Introducing now cultural interpretations to distract from the call on the goyim and fake gerim is what is : ARED HERRING in the issue under discussion.
5) In short: ALL FAKE MEGAYRIM SHOULD STOP THEIR FAKE PRACTICES,
2) ALL NON JEWS CANNOT MINGLE WITH KLAL YISROEL AND ANYONE THAT HELPS IN THAT REGARD HELPS TO INCREASE INTERMARRIAGE.
3)THE SAME WITH ALL THE ACTIVIES OF FORBIDDEN PROSETYZING: LIKE MAKING MASS CONVERSIONS IN LATIN AMERICA OR EUROPE SHOULD BE SHUNNED AND CODMENED AND STOPPED.
1 of 2: To Roni of July 8, 2009 3:02 PM:
ReplyDelete"Roni said...1) I know that Eisenstein knows that he signed on the English letter as well."
RaP: Your words go against the direct testimony of poster mekubal who has written that Rav Eisenstein had NO knowldge of the English letter when he (mekubal) spoke with him (Eisenstein) about it. One of you is a liar.
"2) I know that Rav Eisenstein and many other Rabbis fights corrupted GErus by fake megayrim who bring Goyim into klal yisroel."
The road to hell is paved with good intentions. He is not accomplishing anything except creating mass hatred of him and against all Charedi Jews who will have to pay for Eisenstein's intentions that only create hell on Earth for everyone while not solving any problems at all!
"Whether or not he ahas another agenda does not interest me;"
RaP: It should, because Eisenstein does not just pick on Bomzer, he hates all Modern Orthodox rabbis of the RCA (as proven when he rebuked them at the now notorious EJF concert when he told them off about CReation and colored jackets), and he hates all Religious Zionist rabbis as he set up Rav Sherman to renounce the rulings of Rav Drukman. So it is war that Eisenstein seeks and it is war that he will get. Only thing is, when you start a war you have to be aware that you could lose, and Eisenstein does not seem to realize this as he charges on creating havoc where-ever he can, with Tropper as his partner and side-kick.
"as it does interest me in this juncture now, wehether or not DT or RAP (as it is clear to any objective observer) has an agenda and personal motiv to fight Tropper as vengeeancae for some thing in the past."
RaP: Tropper has created enough advertising for himself and EJF to prove that he/it have an outright proselytizing agenda that any ben Torah with open eyes could see is VERY dangerous for Klal Yisroel. That is why Rav Shternbuch and the BADATS have admonished Tropper and warned all rabbonim to stay away from EJF concerts.
"what is of interest is that he unvovers and alerrts people that dayanim like bomzer (and there are many)"
RaP: At least you admit it is not just Bomzer that is Tropper's/Eisenstein's targets, they plan to attack in every locale and destroy Orthodox rabbis as they see fit based on their narrow agenda and take on things when there are other more moderate genuine Halachic choices. This is not going to be a pretty picture at this rate and it will rip communities apart, as it is already doing to Israeli society.
"do convert many people without any shred and semblanceof KAbblaat Hamtizvot."
RaP: Who gets to decide this and what the standards should be?
"Yasher Koach to him on this and shame on all those who fight him on this war with herring distractions (About war on MO and the like)."
RaP: War is never a good thing because innocent people get killed and it has many unintended consequences. Tropper and Eisenstein should consider well this aggressive path they have chosen and the boomerang effects it will have on them and the entire Charedi world as the inevitable lash-back increases. ...
2 of 2: To Roni of July 8, 2009 3:02 PM:
ReplyDelete"3) there is no "dialogue" about accepting non jews as JEws. Truth and sheker cannot find compromise on that."
RaP: Orthodox rabbis should be able to talk to each other lechatchila. Sure, Ayatolas cannot talk to intellectual rabbis, they prefer toady psychophants, but real chachomim should be able to find a common shprach with each other. Your comments reveal immaturity and childishness.
"4) Introducing now cultural interpretations to distract from the call on the goyim and fake gerim is what is : ARED HERRING in the issue under discussion."
RaP: The ONLY one making the "new cultural interpretations" is you/Tropper/EJF that now feel they have a complete green light based on the flimsiest of krumme kop sevoras to proselytize and seek out millions of gentiles hitched to Jews to convert them into ultra-EJFharedim and to seek out out Billions of gentiles who "may" be of Jewish descent -- all this is based on YOUR/Tropper's/EJF's own words and ads on the Internet that this blog has noted many times.
"5) In short: ALL FAKE MEGAYRIM SHOULD STOP THEIR FAKE PRACTICES,"
RaP: Fine good, we can finally agree on something. While you are at it try yelling into the cyberspace yonders that married people should stop cheating on their spouses and that all Jews should keep Shabbos kehalacha etc. See how far you get! Yelling and screaming at people changes nothing, it only makes them run the other way.
"2) ALL NON JEWS CANNOT MINGLE WITH KLAL YISROEL AND ANYONE THAT HELPS IN THAT REGARD HELPS TO INCREASE INTERMARRIAGE."
RaP: Agreed. And therefore Tropper should heed the words of the BADATS that EJF's derech will do this too and they must stop their blatant proselytizing.
"3)THE SAME WITH ALL THE ACTIVIES OF FORBIDDEN PROSETYZING: LIKE MAKING MASS CONVERSIONS IN LATIN AMERICA OR EUROPE SHOULD BE SHUNNED AND CODMENED AND STOPPED."
RaP: Agreed. But why did the Mishpacha magazine for hire make it very clear in the name of Goldstein that Tropper and Rabinowitz are very active in Mexico with conversions? And why does Tropper and EJF think it's ok to try to proselytize and be megayer EJF style every last gentile hitched to a Jew? That is as big a problem as anything else is.
ALl repetetive and nothing new in the chollent maker.
ReplyDeleteBut i'll repeat again one of your new lies: Mishpacha did not write that Tropper is "Very active in MEzxico with covnersionS"; they said that Rabbi Goldstein said that they are trying to make life easier for converts! You lie all the time until...
In any event: you have covered for BOmzer whom you and uyour freeind enabled him to make fake gerut and infiltrated klal yisroel with so many goyim and now you think you are entitled to talk about conversions wars here and and israel! YOU are part of the problem! you brought hundredns ands thousands of goyim and there is no way to defend from their infiltration in klal yisroel without sayin thetruth.
Yasher koach for all those who say the truth and do not shove it under the rug by making another fake intermarrigage...
Roni, you live in fantasy land. I have never helped anyone convert while Tropper and EJF run around the world looking to convert any and all people.
ReplyDeleteAnd yes, it's much easier to call people names and croak about "chollent makers" instead of debating and discussing their points. You seem to think that everyone is obligated to approach a discussion and situation with your/Tropper's assumptions and attitudes that treat people like Bomzer as if he were an "untermentsch" classified as such by anti-semites rather than trying to create an atmosphere of mutual respect to make the improvements you claim you/Tropper seek.
And again, for the umpteenth time, as far as Tropper and Rav Eisenstein are concerned, it's more than abvious given their own words and actions, that they wish to destroy not just Bomzer as an individual but every last Modern Orthdox and Religious Zionist rabbi, or anyone who gets in their way, as proven by all their actions during the ongoing Conversion Wars in Israel and America.
The situation will only get worse and no improvements will ever happen as Tropper and Rav Eisenstein poison the atmosphere and poison the well with their hateful talk that will gain them only the hate of the very people they seek to help and engage. It is all rather sad. The way you talk proves the point.
All these comments are very distressful and, unfortunately, typical of FFB's. The truth is that nobody is advocating "mass conversions" and Rabbi Goldstein is NOT advocating this. In fact there have been no "mass converstions" as you claim in all your comments. Very few people that have come to Rabbi Goldstein have actually converted. As someone personally involved, I also know that many of them will not convert. Rabbi Goldstein is someone to go to with questions, not someone who is looking to convert or proletyze to anyone. People find him and come to him and he tries to help them out and put Judaism to them in very real terms. That is the reason most of them haven't converted and will not. They understand it is hard for them to reconcile their present lives with that of what is demanded of them in Judaism.
ReplyDeleteAs far as Racheli's comment, I will remind her that Avraham Avinu was born of an idol worshiper and was raised thus until he saw through the fantasy of it all and found Hashem. Therefore, be very careful with your attitudes and I hope that if you run into a bonafide convert who is living his life as a righteous Jew and worked hard to give up is bonafide gentile life, you won't dare insult him/her.
As a convert, I am ashamed of what has been posted here and of how a rabbi speaks of helping people and of converts and all the sudden he's accused of converting most of Latin America which is contrary to what is happening.
As a "Hispanic" "ger", I am insulted by the insinuations in your comments that Rabbi Goldstein is proletyzing throughout Latin America. That is most incorrect and you also have taken many items in the article completely out of context. The fact is that these people literally in the middle of nowhere have tapped into some spiritual stirring deep within their souls and have searched for meaning. They have contacted Rabbi Goldstein since they feel he can help them and understand them on a level very few others can. From personal experience, I know that he details for them how hard it is to be a Jew and how difficult it is to stay on the derech all the moreso with their diverse backgrounds. Furthermore he does encourage them to live in a frum community which is why the many converts that Rabbi Goldstein has helped live in Monsey or in other established communities.
ReplyDeleteYour misinterpretation of the article and of Rabbi Goldstein's work is what we converts have experienced throughout our lives from other Ashkenazi Jews - an attempt to disconnect us and questions our devotion to Torah.
As for your comments that many born Jews are disconnected from Torah and totally off the derech, that really has nothing to do with Rabbi Goldstein's line of focus, but should be the focus of other Rebbeim if they so choose to help bring in those lost souls as well. In my opinion the neshomas that are lost today in the form of Jews that have lost their way or neshomas that are wondering amongst the goyishe nations are both needing to be brought back to its source - whether by Rabbi Goldstein or other Rebbeim. When we all open our eyes and unite as one Jewish nation and not the fragmented nation we have become, perhaps then we can bring the geula closer.
Also, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know Christianity is a made up false religion. The movement away from fairy tales and towards truth has started and with this will come cynics from within our midst. We all remember there were Jews that wanted to remain in Mitzraim and doubted Moshe all the way to the desert..
Please do not post annonymous comments. Those that are important I manually repost with a name.
ReplyDeleteIt is a major waste of time.
anonymous your last post was rejected simply because you won't bother putting a name on it.
ReplyDeleteBSD
ReplyDeleteI read and re-read all the comments here. I could not helped but noticed that there are two types of posters those alarmist that dont know Rabbi Goldstein and those that from their own experiance have told us what really is going on. I see the danger of judging without knowing the facts. Here is what I know of Rabbi Goldstein.
1) He never looked or seeked anyone to become jewish.
2) He does not believe in mass conversions and has never advocated for such a thing.
3)He has never participated in a conversion or even helped with either BY Rabbi Tropper or Rabbi Rabbinowitz.
4)He does not deal exclusively with gerim in fact I was brought back to judaism by his charisma and commun sence.
5)He is connected with Torah sages and always acts according to their rulings.
6)Out of the hundreads that have come to him wishing to convert only a small fraction has actually become jewish.
7) I personally Know most of those converts and they put me to shame in the observance of judaism.
You should ask around about who he is!!! an inspiring person that always leave you with a taste of joy in judaism ...a rare one in
our days.
This article was intended to inspire not to be torn appart to demonize a person of such integrity. I´m a FFB that went away from judaism because of people like you!!!! It took a ger Tsedek to bring me back because I simply could not see joy in judaism. It got stuck in the machanical and took away the compasion ,undertanding and above all the love. you all seem to be the "protectors of judaism" but have you ask yorself why Moshaich in not here yet? You are the cause of the golus..well intended "protectors" that have no idea what judaism is all about.....
BSD
ReplyDeleteI think an injustice has been commited in judging before knowing the facts.
I have seen the cynical who chose to invalidate without knowing and the personaly involved like me.
I was a defector to judaism an FFB that was push into judaism with the mind set of a "mechanical jew" I hated all of judaism because I was never shown its compasion its inner meaning its heart. It took a ger Tzedek (Rabbi Goldstein)to open my eyes. If a person from Puerto Rico can see joy in judaism why I cant seem to find it? His reply was..."come with me I will show you a different angle of it!" I must admit I was transformed!!!
"Rabbi Akiva was laughing" says the Talmud..maybe that is the lesson that we are unable to grasp, guerim are there to bring us back in track, remind us who we are and should be.
again, with Rabbi Goldstein you will hit a brick wall. I was a yemenite jew that lost its interest in judaism even though my father was a Rabbi and shochet...I shall never forget Rabbi Goldstein and his fresh air.
you all should apologize for mostei shem ra!
BSD
ReplyDeleteRabbi,you have commited and act of difamation wich is asur by jewish law as well as by the law of the land, you should delete this distortion of the facts. As for the rest of you`posters, this should be a lesson because an act of chilul Hashem was done to an innocent Ger Tzedek that served well the jewish people all because did not bother to find out the facts. The endless list of violations of Torah law should bring fear to those that proclaim to believe in it!
Should a women in Colombia travel to Miami every month just because she is a convert? Should a Kosher Ger Tzadek be prohibited from entering a shul or jewish burial or giving jewish education to his children just because of his background? Should I rejoice if I rejected a serious person that has been looking for judaism for 30 years from serving Hashem? (off course your blind eyes did not see that in the article)where is that In Halacha? I dont know what Torah you practice but the one we recieved from Hashem at Mount Sinai has a heart and it also has brains. shame in all of you....a real shame!
This unwarranted vituperation and slander is only part of the story. It was motivated by an old controversy about the issue of conversions. Rabbi Goldstein`s article only became important to him because Rabbi Tropper was mention in the article. At that moment he "found" what he believe was a bomb shell to mock his doings and make him seem anti-halachic. The truth is the Rabbi Goldstein got involved in helping the issue of gerim because he seriously believe in judaism and it laws. He went far a wide to prevent mass conversions and identify problematic botei dinim.
ReplyDeleteAs he once told me "the very reputation of myself and other guerim is at stake, I will not allow fake conversions"
The Talmudic citation "kashe guerim l`Israel k`sapachat" should be understood with the wisdom of judaism and not with the norrow stupitity you have chosen to interpreted it. When Moshe rabenu called us "Am naval v lo chacham" (oh foolish nation and unwise)or "Dor okesh upsalto"(His children's is the blemish; a generation crooked and perverse) should we use it in the same maner as you do for the guerim? well I believe Moshe Rabenu was not an antisemite so we look for deeper meaning in the words of the sages.
Since The Torah prohibited us from taunting a ger it will be imposible to assume that they said those words to insult guerim and prevent them from ever becoming jewish ,much the same that it will be stupid tu assume that Moshe just wanted to insult us and teach us that we are all foolish and crooked. Treat the ger as a jew like the Torah commanded and help bring the geula by helping those that are there still to come. Bet din That are Kosher and Gerim that are genuine goes without saying. Our rabbis told us that at the ends of times this will happen and you all seem unwilling or not ready for the ocasion! We better get ready for what is coming because Hashem and His word is more powerfull than some petty cynical Rabbi. Kosher Burritos and lechayim with tequila is the way of the future,,,,,,