R' Tropper recently rejected the views of a prominent Midwestern Rav - who is opposed to EJF - as not being those of a posek but merely a talmid chachom. R' Tropper explcitly states that he views Rav Eliashiv and Rav Dovid Feinstein as poskim - but that he views most talmidei chachom as not being considered poskim - even those who answer halachic questions. Obviously he does not view himself as a posek. But this declaration - printed below - would imply that he does not view the head of his halachic committee - Rav Reuven Feinstein as a posek. That would mean that he is acknowledging the radical halachic changes of his organization are being certified by a prominent talmid chachom - but not someone that R' Tropper considers a posek! He also acknowledges that he has received words of encouragement from the great contemporary poskim - but does not mention a single letter explicitly supporting EJF halachic innovations.
If in fact he did not mean to imply that Rav Reuven Feinstein is not a posek - he should explicity state this and apologize for his unintentional slight to Rav Reuven's kavod.
=========================
Rabbi Tropper's blog
Rabbi Tropper I heard that there is a Rav who is a Posek in the Midwest, who is strongly opposed to the EJF. Are you aware of this opposition?
Answer: Rabbi Tropper says:
No I am not aware. I am sure that who ever this Rav is he must be a Talmid Chochom. However I am not aware of any Posek in the Midwest at all.
I heard from the Great Gaonim Maran Harav Yisroel Gustman, zt’l and Maran Harav Yitzchok Hutner, zt’l on different occasions that not every Rav is a Posek. A Posek is one who knows Bavli, yerushalmi, Michilta, Tur bais Yosef, 4 chelkei Shulchan aruch in great depth. One who could analyze a halachic issue and bring proof from various places in Shas to the issue at hand.
These words are similiar to the Daas Torah I heard from the great Posek, Harav Yosef Eliyahu Henkin, zt’l. Rav Henkin, then went on to tell me a story about the Maharsham, zt’l who would bring 8 proofs from shas to support his Psakim.
One who knows all of Mishne Berura albeit by heart is a Rav not a Posek!
One who memorizes all of the Piskei Chazon Ish or the Psakim of the Tshbiner Rav or the Igros Moshe is NOT a posek.
I am not aware of any POSEK in the midwest. I know of a few respected rabbonim in the Midwest. Even great Talmedei Chachomim, but not Poskim.
In Eretz Yisroel We have 3 or 4 SENIOR Poskim, Maran Harav Yosef Sholom Eliyashuv, shlit”a, Maran Harav Shmuel Wosner, shlit”a (The Chazon Ish said about Maran Harav Wosner, shlit”a that if Moshiach would arrive during his time, he would be a Member of the Sanhedrin). Maran Harav Ovadia Yosef, shlit”a whose knowledge in all aspects of Shas and Poskim is legendary.
In the U.S. many Bnei Torah refer to Hagaon Rav D. Feinstein, shlit”a as a great Posek.
Many of the newcomers to Yiddishkeit ask a Shaila to a Rav.
They Believe that the most simple question answered by a Rav is from a “Posek”. We should educate them properly.
The danger in this confusion is that when Maran Harav Wosner, shlit”a or Maran Harav Eliyashuv, shlit”a issue a Halachic decision and a Rav in the Midwest or in NY argues, it becomes in their mind a “Machlokes haposkim”. That is Dangerous!
A Rav in NY or in LA or in the Midwest who argues with the above mentioned Poskim is not classified as a “Machlokes Haposkim”.
Hence, the Gedoley Haposkim and the Gedoley Horoah, shlit”a who strongly endorse the efforts of EJF to stop fraudelent conversion amongst Klal Yisroel, speak to those who respect Daas Torah.
As much as a Moreh Horoah can say, his words are secondary next to the words of the Poskei Hador.
A hand written letter of support for Netzach Mishpachas Yisroel was written by Maran, the great Gaon Harav Chaim Kanievsky, shlit”a and read at the conference held recently in Yerushalayim. Another letter of elaborate support came from the Zkan Rosh Hayeshivos in Eretz Yisroel.
DT/M wrote: 'But this declaration - printed below - would imply that he does not view the head of his halachic committee - Rav Reuven Feinstein as a posek'.
ReplyDeleteIf in fact he did not mean to imply that Rav Reuven Feinstein is not a posek - he should explicity state this and apologize for his unintentional slight to Rav Reuven's kavod."
==
A good start of DT of the three weeks to make machlokess and divisiveness!
Where did you see him imply something about RAv REuven; after all he did write "heard from the Great Gaonim Maran Harav Yisroel Gustman, zt’l and Maran Harav Yitzchok Hutner, zt’l on different occasions that not every Rav is a Posek. A Posek is one who knows Bavli, yerushalmi, Michilta, Tur bais Yosef, 4 chelkei Shulchan aruch in great depth. One who could analyze a halachic issue and bring proof from various places in Shas to the issue at hand":
Where do you go of here that he said that Rav Reuven does know all of the abovve? that he cannot analyze halachik issues by bringing proof from various places in Shas?
IT is actually you (with the whole crew (and the 7 shemos shenikreu and all other stooges) who constantly mock and make disparaging remarks (some remarks that you allowed (at best - for some have been made by you) at Rav Reuven! with a total zilzul and bizayon!
In any event this post of your passes for the jumps and leaps that are made by you and your chollent editorials who are usualy written by someone who did not pass messifta level.
Roni - as usual you fire away with your ad hominem attacks - and utterly miss the point.
ReplyDeleteLet me simplify my argument for your sake.
Tropper wrote a long post in which he claims that the Rav in the Midwest is not a posek - despite the fact that he is a well known and well regarded posek.
However since Tropper claims this person is not a posek and in addition he falsely asserts he wasn't a close talmid of Rav Moshe - he therefore dismisses the person's views as not worthy of concern.
He then names people who he views as poskim - including Rav Dovid Feinstein. If he had not mentioned any names then I would not have commented. But it was a slight to the kavod of Rav Reuven not to mention him amongst those he considers poskim.
Dt/M wrote:
ReplyDelete"Roni - as usual you fire away with your ad hominem attacks -",
Roni: MOst of this Blog is filled with AD HOMINeM ATTACKS! Actually the content of this post is an ad hominem attack! Even assuming R' Tropper should have mentinoed Rav REuven in this post, does it qualify for your fiery post and it's "heading" "DOes R/ Tropper view Rav reuven Feinstein as a Possek?"' Let's assume he made a mistake on this, does it warrant your rampage at him and with this heading? Your blog wis 10 to 0 over Rt's blog with regards to ad hominem attacks! I can't believe how you continue to justify your attacks now! on this post you twist what he writes (which either shouws on your motivation or on your level of messifta learning).
Btw, *YOu* are NOT one qualified to bichlal to take on Rav REuven's respect; you leave on your blog such FILTHY SHMUTZ directed at him! you are the last person to take on his kovod for an *ommission* on part of R' Tropper which could have some explnanation why picked two examples and not "אטו כי רוכלא ליזיל וליחשב"?
I haven't missed any point at this ridiculous post (on the beginning of the 3 weeks):
DT/M writes: "Tropper wrote a long post in which he claims that the Rav in the Midwest is not a posek - despite the fact that he is a well known and well regarded posek.
However since Tropper claims this person is not a posek and in addition he falsely asserts he wasn't a close talmid of Rav Moshe - he therefore dismisses the person's views as not worthy of concern".
roni: NOW NOW, you have comeback with *another* issue that you haven't written on your post and on the heading. Now you are Vaguely (becuase as usual you write and lump different points and make a chollent out of them (as some other chollent makers at this blog) and do not focus on what exactly is your problem):
critcizing 1) RT's assessment of who is a Possek and who is not a Possek. WEll whether or not you agree or disagree with his assessment he cites his cources that not every Rav is a Possek.
Therefore when Dt further states that Rt said that (as usual vague and not clear) "therefore dismisses the person's views as not worthy of concern" is a statement that is not accurate and is FALSE , for the question wasn't whether any "views" of a Rov is "not worthy of concern"; he didn't state so and didn't hint so. Rt actually wrote q what he means (and I am more surprised as ever how you twist and misread to attack). This is what he actually wrote:
” A Rav in NY or in LA or in the Midwest who argues with the above mentioned Poskim is not classified as a “Machlokes Haposkim”.
Hence, the Gedoley Haposkim and the Gedoley Horoah, shlit”a who strongly endorse the efforts of EJF to stop fraudelent conversion amongst Klal Yisroel, speak to those who respect Daas Torah.
As much as a Moreh Horoah can say, his words are secondary next to the words of the Poskei Hador.
A hand written letter of support for Netzach Mishpachas Yisroel was written by Maran, the great Gaon Harav Chaim Kanievsky, shlit”a and read at the conference held recently in Yerushalayim. Another letter of elaborate support came from the Zkan Rosh Hayeshivos in Eretz Yisroel. What he is was saying that for him to be an "opposition" to the Posskim who DO support EJf is “
Here you have shochor al gabey lovon that what RT is saying is (not that a Rov's views are not worthy of concern; he is saying that his cocerns are not on the level to be classified as machlokess haposskim against great Posskim! (whether you agree or not with this stateement is another matter, but how can you twist what he said in such a blatant way?)
to be continued...
conitnued....
ReplyDeleteThen Dt/M crticizes RT for "He then names people who he views as poskim - including Rav Dovid Feinstein. If he had not mentioned any names then I would not have commented. But it was a slight to the kavod of Rav Reuven not to mention him amongst those he considers poskim"
Roni: what is the nature of this criticism? that he mentioned Rav Kanievsky and did not mention Rav Reuven? Hew is now taking the kovod of Rav reuven! for this slight omission? and making a whole mountrain out of thin air?
I'll help you: איבעית אימא "כי רוכלא ליזיל וליחשיב", ואיבעית אימא:
That he wanted to make the point clear that Rabbi in Midwest is not of the capacity to be an "opposition" on the level of "machlokess haposskim" agsint his supporters. So if he would have mentioned Rav REuven, then you and your commenters) would say with a chutzpah as THEY ACTUALLY DID IN THE PAST! UNDER YOUR EYES!.... .that he is only a "rosh yeshiva" in a small yeshiva and does not answer shaylos to klal yisroel on the same level as....So, in ordetr to avoid the chutzpah that you and your bloggers have exhumed in the past, he went straight to people like Rav Kanievsky and Zkan rosh Hayeshivot wich stregthen the point that Rabbi in the midwest is not on the level to an "opposition " to the support htat Rav Tropper carries!
Simple as that... and now let's wait for the next course of chollent....
Dt/M wrote:
ReplyDelete"Roni - as usual you fire away with your ad hominem attacks -",
Roni: MOst of this Blog is filled with AD HOMINeM ATTACKS! Actually the content of this post is an ad hominem attack! Even assuming R' Tropper should have mentinoed Rav REuven in this post, does it qualify for your fiery post and it's "heading" "DOes R/ Tropper view Rav reuven Feinstein as a Possek?"' Let's assume he made a mistake on this, does it warrant your rampage at him and with this heading?...
Btw, *YOu* are NOT one qualified to bichlal to take on Rav REuven's respect; ...
DT I seem to have hit a sensitive issue regarding Tropper's relationship with Rav Reuven. It seems that Tropper does not go to Rav Reuven with all that he does and ask whether it is appropriate. For example a reliable source told me that Rav Reuven was not consulted nor did he approve of the conventions in Arizona and California which initiate my criticism of EJF. The letter that you provided from Rav Reuven clearly indicates he was not even asked about proselytizing married couples but simple whether there were grounds for leniency if they came on their own. In other words Rav Reuven is not directing the show Tropper is. I am not the one degrading Rav Reuven's kavod.
...
Roni said...
ReplyDeleteconitnued....
Then Dt/M crticizes RT for "He then names people who he views as poskim - including Rav Dovid Feinstein. If he had not mentioned any names then I would not have commented. But it was a slight to the kavod of Rav Reuven not to mention him amongst those he considers poskim"
Roni: what is the nature of this criticism? that he mentioned Rav Kanievsky and did not mention Rav Reuven? Hew is now taking the kovod of Rav reuven! for this slight omission? and making a whole mountrain out of thin air?
=========================
You really have a problem with English and you missed my point.
If Tropper needs someone with chushuv last name on his payroll he should try the former San Francisco mayor and the current senior US senator from California...
ReplyDeleteIf money can buy rabbis for sure it can buy politicians...
as usual I don't why i wasn't able to post about the expected chollent. First, he writes about the slight of kovod that thename is not mentioned amongst poskim, then the twister and chollent maker jumps back and forth about a liethat a rov's word are not worth of concern when it is black on white in ENGLISH that this is notr was said and then he goes back to something else he did not say on this heading: trhat Rav Reuven did not give a teshuva on the arizona convention...zig zag zig zAG:
ReplyDeleteIn simple english: it is upon *you* DT?m to bring aproof that jhe does not support or allow tropper for that covnention, for in simple english to a non krummer kop, who entered Beys medrash after mesivta understnds that the "presidentof Halchik committee" of the organization knows about all isuesof the organization and allows it. It is upon you to provide proof that he wasn't aware. REliable sources" seem shaky at best,
hopefully the chollent will at least teaste good.
"R' Tropper recently rejected the views of a prominent Midwestern Rav - who is opposed to EJF - as not being those of a posek but merely a talmid chachom."
ReplyDeleteThe above point by Rabbi Eidensohn/da'as torah is very important, which can be seen by the level of insult and distractions that poster Roni/Tropper is throwing up as a smokescreen and dustcloud (his usual red herring defenses) rather than deal with the substance of the question of whether Rav Reuven Feinstein can be regarded as a posek using the criteria that Rabbi Tropper himself posts on his own blog (where he spends all his time talking to himself, since he feels the need to spend more time rebutting points on this blog rather than making sense on his own.)
Poster Roni/Tropper has still not answered the SEVEN QUESTIONS FOR RAV REUVEN FEINSTEIN posted here (1-5) and here (6-7). (And before Roni/Tropper gets all heated up yet again, read what Rabbi Eidensohn stated at that point, here.)
At any rate, one key point should be noted, and it is classical Tropper technique that when confronted with the words of a rov he does not like or who stands in his way, he will NOT react in the expected HUMAN manner of first, professional courtesy and mentschlichkeit, and then secondly, IMPARTIALLY analyse the merits of the other rov's words with dignity and respect, and thirdly WISELY perhaps seek to see where the other rov may have a source to back him up, or preferably with HUMILITY ask for more time to find which other rabbonim or poskim not in the midwest may actually support the words of that rov, but NO, Tropper like a schoolyard bully goes for the jugular and seeks to annihilate that other rov he now hates simply because he has had the temerity to speak up and oppose Tropper, so then Tropper goes ballistic and pulls out the oldest trick usued usually against gullible and scared BTs, just summon up the names of other gedolim, dead or alive, in support of Tropper's own position, when nothing is so clear cut. Typical fantasies about "my posek is greater than your posek" arguments that lead nowhere and convince noone who really knows anything about the subject.
At all points and at all discussions Roni/Tropper NEVER clarify which part of the EJF agenda they are upholding, is it fighting weak and false conversions, or is the one they don't toot their horns about so publicly, of their agenda to proselytize and convert millions of gentiles hitched to Jews by EJF-style ultra haredi conversions or even their plans to reach out to billions of gentiles who may have a miniscule shred Jewish descent over the millenia.