shoshi said... You see, as far as I understand, there is no clear case in halacha against pedophila, as long as it is directed against non-related girls. In this case, however, or in the case of incest, it is a very heavy issur. So I can not understand why rabbanim would treat this issur more lightly then shmirat shabbat, etc... shoshi said...You see, you made my point: According to halacha, it is permissible to have sexual intercourse with children as young as 10.Now you say that rape is assur. But what happens if? Does he have to pay compensation? Or will he go to jail? PS: As far as the distinction between molestation and rape is concerned: molestation is any form of sexual abuse, even touching. Rape means there was penetration. So what is the halachic stance on oral rape (forced oral sex), for example??? Or on unwanted touching?
Shoshi's question comes down to - Since there does not seem to be a prohibition under the term molestation doesn't that means it is permitted?
There simple answer is that all forms of sexual molestation are prohibited and the assertion that there is no prohibition against molestation is 100% wrong!
1) If it is homosexual it is prohibited under the prohibition of homosexual behavior 2) heterosexual relationships are only permitted in the context of marriage. 3) Sexual contact - such as hugging and kissing - is also prohibited. 4) It is prohibited to do anything which arouses sexual thoughts outside of marital relations. 6) It is prohibited t to disturb another person with unwanted sexual advances. 7) A person can be killed as a rodef in making sexual advances whose punishment is kares or death by beis din. 8) one is obligated to save a person from molestation or any type of unwanted attention 6) The destruction of person psychologically has been deemed by Rav Eliashiv and Rav Sternbuch as pikuach nefesh. 9) It is prohibited to touch another person for sexual gratification. 10) It is prohibited to look at pornography or to show it to other people. 11) Sexual fantasies are prohibited. 12) Most poskim say that seduction of a minor is considered rape - so even if they agree it is prohibited. 13) Rape of a relative is incest 14) Oral sex is prohibited as zera levatala and by the prohibition against precursors of sexual activity as well as against thoughts and contact of a sexual nature. 15) Encouraging another to have sexual fantasies is forbidden.
Most of the above are Torah prohibitions The others are at least rabbinic prohibited according to all poskim. In addition any behavior which disturbs the safety or well being of the community - it is permitted to call the police. In addition the community has the right to protect itself and administer punishment - including death and disfigurement and any and all other punishment that it deems necessary to protect itself from harm.
There is absolutely no one who says that molestation is permitted. The only valid point you seem to make is that there is no prohibition of child marriages. However I haven't noticed that any of the charges of molestation today involve child marriages within the Jewish community. I would assume that it would be quickly banned by all poskim if it occurred.
R' Dr. Eidensohn,
ReplyDeleteActually the point that marriage to children, or minors, was permitted was my point. And my point was that Shoshi's initial statement was that Pedophilia(which by definition would include adult men married to minors) itself was not prohibited by Torah law.
Then I tried to make the point that molestation is strongly prohibited. My understanding was that halachically all unwanted sexual contact, as well as seduction of minors, was considered rape. I know that this may not be a "legal" definition amongst the world, which is what Soshi seems to insist upon, but that was the understanding I had.
Please correct me if I am wrong, admittedly I have not spent a great deal of time learning the Halachot of sexual deviance. In fact I don't think I have done any in depth study on anything past number 3 on your list.
Which brings me to my final point. It would be immensely helpful if you could post sources, preferably in the Sh"A for all of this. I want to be clear that I agree with every point that you made, I would just like the resources to see it on the inside, and I am not entirely sure where those are found. To be completely honest, I am rather busy and thus am being a bit lazy, as it is easier to look things up and read them when I have a list of sources instead of needing to hunt up the sources. Though I think I know where they are in the Rambam.
So what about the punishments for all those prohibitions
ReplyDelete1) according to halacha
2) in a context of a frum community today.
And what kind of compensation will/should the victim receive?
If money, how much?
(for the two cases above I cited: brother forcing his sister repeatedly over years to have oral sex with him, not near relative molesting and raping a girl (that is nida) repeatedly over years?
may I ask have you been personally affected by abuse ?
DeleteShoshi
ReplyDeleteShulchan Aruch Choshen Mishpat Siman 1(Also same place in the Tur), essentially states that a B"D today has no power to impose fines. If the person needs counseling, and for this one would have to refer to R' Eliashiv, R' Shternbuch, R' Yosef and the other Gedolei HaDor, there is an inyan that we may make a person pay for someone's medical expenses that are a result of an injury. The psychological counseling one would need to recieve may be applicable, but a Shaila would have to be asked.
punishment in terms of money is up to the beis din.
ReplyDeleteAs a practical matter this would come under the issue of Simon beis in Choshen Mishpat
שולחן ערוך חושן משפט ב
סעיף א
כל בית דין, אפילו אינם סמוכים בא"י, אם רואים שהעם פרוצים בעבירות (ושהוא צורך שעה) (טור), היו דנין בין מיתה בין ממון, בין כל דיני עונש, ואפילו אין בדבר עדות גמורה. ואם הוא אלם, חובטים אותו על ידי עובדי כוכבים. ( ויש להם כח להפקיר ממונו ולאבדו כפי מה שרואים לגדור פרצת הדור) (טור בשם הרמב"ם בפרק כ"ד מסנהדרין). וכל מעשיהם יהיו לשם שמים; ודוקא גדול הדור, או טובי העיר שהמחום ב"ד עליהם. הגה: וכן נוהגין בכל מקום שטובי העיר בעירן כב"ד הגדול, מכין ועונשין, והפקרן הפקר כפי המנהג; אעפ"י שיש חולקין וס"ל דאין כח ביד טובי העיר באלה, רק להכריח הצבור במה שהיה מנהג מקדם או שקבלו עליהם מדעת כולם, אבל אינן רשאים לשנות דבר במידי דאיכא רווחא להאי ופסידא להאי, או להפקיע ממון שלא מדעת כולם (מרדכי פ' הגוזל בתרא), מכל מקום הולכין אחר מנהג העיר; וכל שכן אם קבלום עליהם לכל דבר, כן נ"ל (ועיין בי"ד סימן רכ"ח דיני תקנות וחרמי צבור). כתבו האחרונים בתשובותיהם דמי שנתחייב מלקות, יתן ארבעים זהובים במקום מלקות (מהרי"ו סימן קמ"ז ומהר"ם מריזבורק); ולאו דינא קאמר, אלא שהם פסקו כך לפי שעה, אבל ביד הב"ד להלקותו או ליטול ממון כפי ראות עיניהם, לפי הענין, למגדר מלתא (וע"ל ריש סימן תכ"ה בהג"ה).
D"T
ReplyDeleteThat Siman came to mind, but my understanding was that was only in times of great need, when the entire generation is going astray, or we are worried that the individual will lead the entire generation(or city) astray, as it says,
אם רואים שהעם פרוצים בעבירות (ושהוא צורך שעה)
Does one molestor fulfill this requirement? Personally I am not sure, and frankly I am leaning toward the fact that he does not. As I have heard this halacha taught from the lips of R' Yosef it is only to be used in the most dire of communal circumstances when we fear that the behavior of a person will lead a generation astray. Otherwise we open the door for a form of vigilante justice. Every "modesty squad" claims to rely upon this Halacha.
Personally I would need to see a Teshuva from a Gadol before I would apply this in this case. The very aversion our people have to molestation in and of itself make it hard for me to see it satisfying the requirement laid down, that the people are going astray after aveirot.
Thanks for your answers, but you do not answer my questions:
ReplyDelete- Whatwould the punishment be according to halacha?
- How much would he pay as a compensation?
- What could the punishment be in today's frum world?
(Since I asked about the case in theory, we leave the burden of proof aside)
http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2008/11/child-abuse-callling-police-harav.html
ReplyDeleteIn the above teshuva Rav Eliashiv specifically refers to this approach
@mekubal:
ReplyDeletei am quite astonished at your answer. I understood that jewish-orthodox businessmen go to din torah when they have a disagreement. And I understood that they would do what the beis din imposes on them.
So if a victim brought a molestor before a din torah, what would be the outcome?
Or are you saying that a din torah could just not rule in such a case?
shoshi said...
ReplyDeleteThanks for your answers, but you do not answer my questions:
- What would the punishment be according to halacha?
- How much would he pay as a compensation?
- What could the punishment be in today's frum world?
========================
The amount would be up to what the beis din felt was appropriate. There is no fixed amount. we are not talking about an approach of $1000 for a rape and $500 for molesting. Simon aleph says that most of the standard punishment can not be done by contemporary beis din. What is available is baised on tikun olam or preservation of society. The specific punishment and payment would depend on the beis din consulted and their evaluation.
He cites the Rashba who is talking about that approach. However, R' Eliashiv is using it in specific reference to turning a person over to secular authority. It does not seem that he has necessarily given the B"D the power to act as it sees fit, but rather the ability to turn a person over the secular authorities.
ReplyDeleteI see how an inference possibly could be made that the B"D has other powers, but I am unconvinced that this was his intent in that specific Teshuva.
The ground work has been definitely laid, but I would still like to see a more definitive Teshuva on exactly what a B"D could do and how far it could go.
Shoshi,
ReplyDeleteI concur with D"T. Theoretically the B"D could order any number of concievable punishments based on the wording of the halacha and its sources. Amputation/castration like R' Huna in Sanhedrin 58B. Even capital punishment according to the wording of the halacha if the B"D sees the need.
Rabbi Eidensohn,
ReplyDeleteAt least one does not agree with you , Pinchus Scheinberg, the one who wears 50-100 pairs of tzitzit in the same time ruled that if there is no penetration it is OK.
http://nymag.com/news/features/17010/index3.html
Scheinberg is the one who gave Tropper his semicha. also was a leading force behind the MOAG ban.
You gave no answer...
ReplyDelete...so it all just amounts to blabla...
Once again.
ReplyDelete1) What would be theoretical punishment according to halacha
2) What could be actual punishment in a frum community (let's say in the US today).
3) To how much would the compensation amount?
"Perhaps most damaging and outrageous was an allegation, made in New York Magazine, that quoted a Gadol, Rav Pinchas Scheinberg, as having ruled in the past that there must be actual penetration in order for child molestation to be actionable from a Halachic standpoint."
ReplyDeleteRabbi Aryeh Ginsberg has issued a public condemnation in both his own name, as well as Rav Scheinberg's.
In addition to his own condemnation, Rabbi Ginzberg quotes Rav Scheinberg as putting his name behind a different ruling, one which forbids any sexual contact with minors whatsoever as being an act of child molestation. While the letter doesn't go so far as to refute the allegation that Rav Scheinberg tried to dissuade the alleged molester's accusers from pursuing their claims , it does refute the notion that there are technical limitations to the definition of molestation.
http://orthomom.blogspot.com/2006/05/local-rabbi-roundly-condemns-any-form.html
Most experts regard pedophilia as resulting from psychosocial factors rather than biological characteristics.
ReplyDeleteIn the United States, about 50% of men arrested for pedophilia are married.
The rate of recidivism for persons with a pedophilic preference for males is approximately twice that of pedophiles who prefer females.
The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders,fourth edition text revised, the following criteria must be met to establish a diagnosis of pedophilia.
* Over a period of at least six months, the affected person experiences recurrent, intense and sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges or actual behaviors involving sexual activity with a prepubescent child or children aged 13 or younger.
* The fantasies, sexual urges or behaviors cause clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational or other important areas of daily functioning.
* The affected person must be at least age sixteen and be at least five years older than the child or children who are the objects or targets of attention or sexual activity.
The main method for preventing pedophilia is avoiding situations that may promote pedophilic acts.
American Psychiatric Association. Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders.Fourth edition, text revised. Washington DC: American Psychiatric Association, 2000.
Gelder, Michael, Richard Mayou, and Philip Cowen. Shorter Oxford Textbook of Psychiatry.4th ed. New York: Oxford University Press, 2001.
Wilson, Josephine F. Biological Foundations of Human Behavior.New York: Harcourt, 2002.
We were wondering over Shabbat if the proliferation of boy's choirs as an alternative to the prohibition of "kol isha" among Orthodox Jews might have something to do with the epidemic of pedophilia that seems to be exploding in our communities in recent years.
Boys choirs became popular in the 1970s with Yerachmiel Begin and MBC although they were always a part of church services.
The substitution of a prepubescent boy in place of the voice of a woman (which our Sages acknowledge to be arousing) might be a largely contributing factor to the problem of pedophilia among Orthodox Jewish men.
See also: Don't Tell: The Sexual Abuse of Boys
by Michel Dorais, translated by Isabel Denholm Meyer
Monsey,
ReplyDeleteJersey girl posted this:
Dear Community Members:
Over the last few days, a number of people have brought to my attention an article from a secular publication asserting that a world-renowned Rosh Hayeshiva issued a halachic ruling regarding child molestation. This alleged ruling "through this publication“ has resulted in widespread Chilul Hashem and gross misrepresentation of clear and indisputable Halacha.
The purpose of this letter is not to address the context of the quote, the alleged ruling in question or the specifics of the primary accusations made in the article. This letter is about clarifying the position of halacha with regard to child abuse, to the extent that position has been clouded by these recent events. Moreover, this
letter is about urgently disseminating essential halachic facts which -- hopefully -- will serve to mitigate the potential damage and destruction caused by this mischaracterization.
It is incumbent upon all Rabbonim worldwide to unite and unequivocally declare that Orthodox Judaism absolutely forbids child abuse of any kind sexual and non-sexual. And, as with any other allegation of halachic wrongdoing, the appropriate testimony must be given, and the appropriate proceedings must be convened, in order to establish the truth of any accusations.
Allow me to be among the first to make this declaration, and I speak not only for myself but also for the Rosh Hayeshiva named in this publication, with whom I have consulted:
Sexually abusing a child in any form is a flagrant violation of our Torah. Halacha absolutely prohibits any and all such conduct. No "benchmark" exists to qualify a sexually motivated act as child molestation, and there are no "technical defenses" to justify child abuse. To be crystal clear: the touching of a child in a sexual manner is utterly forbidden by our Torah and by our mesorah.
It is my hope and prayer that this letter will serve to clarify any confusion about the Torah view on these very serious issues. Obviously, this is not a scholarly letter or article -- now is not the time for Talmudic sources, lengthy discussions or intellectual debates. It is simply the time to set the record straight solely for the purpose of abruptly ending the Chilul Shaim Shomayim facilitated by the dissemination of the supposed Torah viewpoint reported in the article.
Child abuse is forbidden. An issue this easy does not need further clarification. It is my sincere hope that, in consultation with other Rabbonim in our community, we can collectively and effectively formulate appropriate strategies to ensure that the issue of child abuse is dealt with appropriately, proactively and swiftly in our community and beyond.
Good Shabbos.
Rabbi Aryeh Ginzberg
Chofetz Chaim Torah Center
Cedarhurst, NY
In addition to his own condemnation, Rabbi Ginzberg quotes Rav Scheinberg as putting his name behind a different ruling, one which forbids any sexual contact with minors whatsoever as being an act of child molestation. While the letter doesn't go so far as to refute the allegation that Rav Scheinberg tried to dissuade the alleged molester's accusers from pursuing their claims , it does refute the notion that there are technical limitations to the definition of molestation.
____________________________________
Unless someone can demonstrate for me otherwise I am going to assume that the Newpaper article you quote is motzei shem ra, and that this in fact was written in response to that.
I think that part of Soshi's issue is that she thinks that molestation should be discussed outright in the torah like other forbidden relationships and she does not understand such an ommitance.
ReplyDeleteThe truth is that molestation is a modern blanket term that would include many different issurim. This is unlike other actions such as adultery where you have what is called a maase avera with its specific punishment or sacrificial obligation. Any form of pedofilia is going to involve any number of issurei doraita, d'rabbanan or both. This is not to mention a new dimension that we understand today which is the severe psycological damage and anguish that is inflicted upon the victim. Also like Rav Eidelson says the amount of damages needs to be extrapolated by a competent beit din or posik, maby with the help of expert advisors as well, using choshen mishpat as a framework.
shoshi - sorry you don't understand or perhaps don't want to understand.
ReplyDeleterav, perhaps you can provide some insight into the psak of r'scheinberg which left many people perplexed and appalled to say to the least...
ReplyDeleteJersey Girl posted this on other page from whence this discussion orignated,
ReplyDeleteDear Community Members:
Over the last few days, a number of people have brought to my attention an article from a secular publication asserting that a world-renowned Rosh Hayeshiva issued a halachic ruling regarding child molestation. This alleged ruling "through this publication“ has resulted in widespread Chilul Hashem and gross misrepresentation of clear and indisputable Halacha.
The purpose of this letter is not to address the context of the quote, the alleged ruling in question or the specifics of the primary accusations made in the article. This letter is about clarifying the position of halacha with regard to child abuse, to the extent that position has been clouded by these recent events. Moreover, this
letter is about urgently disseminating essential halachic facts which -- hopefully -- will serve to mitigate the potential damage and destruction caused by this mischaracterization.
It is incumbent upon all Rabbonim worldwide to unite and unequivocally declare that Orthodox Judaism absolutely forbids child abuse of any kind sexual and non-sexual. And, as with any other allegation of halachic wrongdoing, the appropriate testimony must be given, and the appropriate proceedings must be convened, in order to establish the truth of any accusations.
Allow me to be among the first to make this declaration, and I speak not only for myself but also for the Rosh Hayeshiva named in this publication, with whom I have consulted:
Sexually abusing a child in any form is a flagrant violation of our Torah. Halacha absolutely prohibits any and all such conduct. No "benchmark" exists to qualify a sexually motivated act as child molestation, and there are no "technical defenses" to justify child abuse. To be crystal clear: the touching of a child in a sexual manner is utterly forbidden by our Torah and by our mesorah.
It is my hope and prayer that this letter will serve to clarify any confusion about the Torah view on these very serious issues. Obviously, this is not a scholarly letter or article -- now is not the time for Talmudic sources, lengthy discussions or intellectual debates. It is simply the time to set the record straight solely for the purpose of abruptly ending the Chilul Shaim Shomayim facilitated by the dissemination of the supposed Torah viewpoint reported in the article.
Child abuse is forbidden. An issue this easy does not need further clarification. It is my sincere hope that, in consultation with other Rabbonim in our community, we can collectively and effectively formulate appropriate strategies to ensure that the issue of child abuse is dealt with appropriately, proactively and swiftly in our community and beyond.
Good Shabbos.
Rabbi Aryeh Ginzberg
Chofetz Chaim Torah Center
Cedarhurst, NY
In addition to his own condemnation, Rabbi Ginzberg quotes Rav Scheinberg as putting his name behind a different ruling, one which forbids any sexual contact with minors whatsoever as being an act of child molestation.
___________________________________
So until someone can demonstrate for me that this wasn't a direct refutation of the above mentioned news article, I consider the news article to be motzei shem ra, and thus have no real merit.
The allegation about Pinchus Scheinberg is not from that article, it is from a lawsuit where at least 3 parents from different families said in deposition that Scheinberg told them so.
ReplyDeleteOf course you can say that the parents are lying and the children are lying, but you know the problem is not in the existence of evil, the problem is the people who let evil go on and on.
Actually Scheinerg overruled Rabbi Avigdor Miller in that case and his family can testify for that.
Here is the actual paragraph from the article:
ReplyDeleteThe group, along with parents and former campers from Camp Agudah, then tried summoning a beit din to rule on Kolko. They demanded Kolko not be there so the victims would feel comfortable telling their stories. But when the proceeding began, he was there, so they left. Then Margulies is said to have started a second beit din. According to Framowitz’s lawsuit, Pinchus Scheinberg, the powerful rabbi who was close to Margulies, contacted several of Kolko’s alleged victims, listened to their complaints, and told them that what happened to them was not abuse—that there needed to be penetration and that because there was none, their claims were not actionable. Then, the lawsuit says, threats followed. One father allegedly was told by Margulies over the phone that if his boy continued to complain, the safety of the rest of his children could not be assured. Both beit dins were halted, the victims never went to the police, and for years, Margulies told others who inquired about Kolko that the rabbi and the school had been exonerated.
___________________________________
All I see here is R' Sheinberg's name being thrown into the middle of something. The article appears to make him handing out legal advice.
I am not saying that the fmailies are lying, ChV"Sh. However, having had some experience with the press, most specifically in regards to the Berg beheading as I was congregational Rav that had the misfortune of being caught up in that at the time, from that experience I feel that the press rarely gets things even half right.
Some journalist sits in a room with emotional people and scribbles down half a dozen notes, and then tries to piece all the disjointed pieces back together form memory... The result is a mess in which people(in my case the loving parents of the victim) come off looking and sounding nothing like who they actually are or what they said.
So really given R' Ginzberg's rebuttal, until there is something more solid to go on, actual court records, a actual psak from R' Sheinberg ect. I think it behooves Klal Israel to Dan Kaf Zecut to R' Sheinberg.
I have a bit of a kesher with one of R' Miller Z"L's grandchildren, when I see or speak to him again I will ask him.
Jersey Girl,
ReplyDeleteSpeaking a person who was a liscensed psychologist, there already have to be predatory dispositions in place, a boy's or children's choir, typically won't do it, unless the individual is already extremely disturbed.
It could act as a trigger for the pre-disposed, but it would not generate those feelings.
Historically speaking boys choirs have been around(though not necessarily Jewish one's) since early antiquity(before the Gemmarra) considering the range of Psychological insight that Chazal had, I believe they would also have addressed the issue specifically(such as with Kol Isha) if it were a true worry.
I am asking in order to learn only, I am not trying to judge or join the "chumra of the month club".
ReplyDeleteMekubal,
When you say regarding boys choirs:
"It could act as a trigger for the pre-disposed, but it would not generate those feelings."
Isn't that the same reason why our Sages forbade listening to the voice of a woman?
So if it is known (and the incidences of pedophilia in the Church seem to support this) that the singing of pre-pubsecent boys will titilate those predisposed to pedophilia, then why isn't it forbidden by our Rabbis in the same way as Kol Isha??
I am just curious. I am a fan of Sfatayim and Emil Zrihan and keep multiple copies of the CDs on hand because I wear them out. (And theoretically it is not possible to wear out a CD).
My understanding would be that the Rabbanim do not make Gezeirah for a yachid.
ReplyDeleteNow let me explain that. First evven in regards to Kol Isha, the halachot are a little fuzzy. There are some that will rule that men hearing any women singing is ossur. Others hold that live is ossur but recorded is fine. Still others hold that live is fine, is the woman is single, but if she is married it is ossur, and thus by extension so would be recordings, as the woman can get married(I know of at least two cases where R' Avigdor Nevantzal heterim for unmarried women to hold concerts where men would be in audience). Here the issue is that it is known that men are attracted to a woman's voice, the question becomes under what circumstances does that attraction beging to violate the issur. However, by and large all men have some sort of arousal.
Now when begin to discuss pre-pubescent children, we are no longer in the all category. The incidence of pre-disposition is already very low. Various studies have determined that of adult men only 21% have any sort of sexual attraction to pre-pubescent children. To put that into some sort of perspective 15% of Americans have drinking problems, not just pre-disposed, but actually have full out disorders.
Going further of that have some sort of attraction only 10% have any sort of actual fantasy, 5% acted auto-erotically on those fantasies, 7% admit that, forgoing possible punishment they may act on those feelings(though I iwll deal with this more in a minute), here is the important part 2% are attracted to children of the same gender. That equates to .2% of the actual population that is attracted to young boys.
Now as far as those that would actually act on their feelings, while 7% of those who have attraction to children say they are likely to do so if they have no fear of punishment, the Kinsey study(and I will leave the morality of his methods aside) found that only 2% actually did when given the chance(yes he gave them the chance... don't ask.)
I am not statitian but essentially of the .2% of the male population that is attracted to pre-pubescent boys, only 2% would act upon those urges under ideal circumstances.
When it comes to the Church and their problems it may well be that the power, and immunity actually attracts predators, thus a slightly higher instance of abuse occurs.
Also these statistics do not include teens, as that is no longer considered pedophilia in the strictest sense. While it may still be molestation, harassment or rape, it is not pedophilia, and the DSMIV does not recognize attraction to teens as a sexual disorder.
All of that information going into why I believe Chazal never made a psak against boys choirs. Essentially their is a higher incidence of alcholism, and even sever debilitating alcoholism(5% of the popultion) then there is of pedophilic pre-dispostion aimed at boys .2%, thus just as they have not banned alcohol they have not banned boys choirs. The problem lies within a minority, not the majority as in the case of Kol Isha.
Mekubal:
ReplyDeleteThe main victims of sexual abuse on minors are not boys, but girls.
http://www.prevent-abuse-now.com/stats.htm#Substantiated
says that the risk for a girl to be abused is 1,7/1000
for a boy 0,4/1000
i.e. risk for a girl is more than 4 times higher.
So just 20% of child sexual abuse cases involve boys. Of those, there are two possibilities: woman/boy and man/boy.
While it might be that the woman/boy cases are a bit underrepresented in the statistics, we conclude from it that the male/male child sexual abuse cases account for perhaps 15% of the total.
Second, it is not sure that the number of male/male abuse cases went up since boys choirs were created. It could be that the rate of discovery increased, while the number of actual cases remained the same.
So give me a break. Don't forbid boy's choirs, as long as choir directors do not resort to castration in order to keep their "voice material" intact (c.f. catholic church in the 16/17. century).
Did I understand your source right that it says that in cases of sexual abuse, the victim should go straight to the police?
ReplyDeleteAnd what if the abuse happened within the family and that prevents the victim from going to the police? Or if some well-meaning Rabbi told the victim it was "moser" or if the victim thought it was "moser", without being told so?
I really would like to know to how much a compensation could amount.
It cannot be that difficult.
We know that, according to torah law, a victim is entitled to
- replacement for damage
- replacement of healing costs
- replacement of salary/revenues not earned during the healing period, replacement of salary/revenues not earned if the work force was never recovered
- damages for shame
- damages for hurt (I suppose not only during the act itself, but also for the time till the victim is fully recovered).
So it should not be so difficult to come up with a sum, and the sum will be at least over 100'000$ (this will not even be enough for the healing costs).
If Diney Torah consequently forced perpetrators to pay adequate damages, this would help the victims a great lot.
I ask the question, because I am in contact with victims who never received any compensation, who decided or were talked into not involving civil authorities. If at least we could give them a reference figure of what sum they would be entitled to according to torah law, it could help them. If they had the sum at their disposal, it could help them even more.
I am very disappointed that no-one was able to answer my question, not the "Rav Hamekubal" and not the "psycholgist and Rabbi" or to give at least an estimation as to how much it could be.
And of course, we are not speaking about 1000$ a rape. This is by far not enough.
PS: Daas torah, you did not answer my question whether forced oral sex on sister is considered forced incest.
ReplyDeleteIf you do not know, just say "I don't konw". Don't start insulting me.
Shoshi,
ReplyDeleteTry reading before you comment. It really will make you sound smarter. As essentially you mirrored what I said.
Here is my solution to the question I asked: Don't calculate a lump sum, just bill the damages when they come up.
ReplyDeleteSend the bill to the perpetrator.
Torah law says, that if someone did a damage, he has to pay for
- the damage itself
- the healing costs
- the pain inflicted
- the shame inflicted
- the revenues lost because of work loss.
So here is my solution, it is quite simple:
I would agree to work through a night for 20$ per hour. So each time you cannot sleep for one night, take the hours, multiply it by 20 (or any figure you think appropriate) and send the bill to the perpetrator (and the Rabbi, and tell the rabbi he should look to it that the perpetrator pays).
Any day you cannot go to work: calculate how much you could have earned on this day, send the bill to the perpetrator.
If you have to take a cab to go to work (with a woman driver), because you feel uncomfortable in public transport: Go ahead, take the cab, send the bill to the perpetrator.
If you need a form a therapy: Go ahead, take 5 therapies a day, send the bill to the perpetrator.
If you cannot stay at your parent's house because you feel unsecure: rent a place of your own, send the bill to the perpetrator.
If you cannot stay alone in the new place: pay someone to be with you, send the bill to the perpetrator.
If you cannot follow in school because body memories disturb you: take a private tutor, send the bill to the perpetrator.
In other words: lots of things could be a lot better for us, if only the torah law of "nezikin" was applied in a consequent way.
What keeps the rabbis from doing it?
@mekubal: you just spoke about compensation for the therapy costs, and did not say anything about the 4 other categories of compensation.
ReplyDeleteTry to give answers that are to the point, it would make you look a lot smarter.
You say in your blog that they call you "harav hamekubal". After reading your answers, I have not great opinion of a "rav hamekubal" any more.
But it could be that you just abuse the title, and that a real "rav mekubal" is not like you.
Shoshi,
ReplyDeleteYou really are an arrogant person, and you don't read very well.
Shulchan Aruch Hoshen Mishpat 1:1,
In our times, Dayanim are authorized to hear cases involving loans, inheritances and gifts, admission of debt, women’s claims to their Ketubah and claims of damage to personal property. These types of disputes arise very often and involve purported monetary loss to the claimant. These are
the two necessary criteria. Lacking one of them, the case is not heard. Thus, today’s Dayanim are not authorized to hear cases about types of disputes that do not arise so often, even cases which involve certain monetary loss to the claimant, such as when someone’s animal maliciously wounds someone else’s animal. Similarly, even if something
happens almost every day, if it not a matter of compensating monetary loss, the case cannot be heard. For example, if someone charges that his neighbor
secretly stole from him, the Dayanim can rule on the theft itself, but they are not authorized to rule that the thief pay the Torah’s fine for theft – kefel (paying double the principle). No cases regarding fines instituted by our Sages can be heard either, such as where somebody shouts into his neighbor’s ear and frightens him, for here, too, the claimant did not suffer monetary loss. So, too, if someone takes his hand and uses it to slap someone on the cheek, thereby causing his victim embarrassment, although Sages instituted that the aggressor must
pay a fine, the case is not heard today. The same applies to any case where, according to the law, the guilty party must pay more than the loss, or he need not compensate the loss completely (e.g. cases of half-damage payments). In all of the above, the only Dayanim who can hear and decide such cases are Mumchim (experts) and Semuchim (ordained judges), when their Semicha (ordination) was in the Land of Israel (today, however, there is no Semicha). The one exception
is half damage payments in cases of Tzrororos (“pebbles” cases.). The reason is that regarding tzrororos, the payment of half the damages is not regarded as a fine, but as partial compensation for monetary loss. If someone injures his fellow, judges who were not given Semicha in the Land of Israel cannot collect from him (nezek – damage payments), (tzar – payment for the victim’s pain), (pagam – payment for “blemish” to the victim), (boshess – payment for embarrassment) or (kofer – “redemption” if the victim died). On the other hand, such judges are able to collect from him (shayvess – compensation for lost work time) and (Ripui – compensation for medical expenses resulting from the injury).
So in answer to that specific question, a Beit Din may award for medical expenses, and for work time lost(if there is any). Aside from that, nothing. The Beit Din today has no ability to impose fines. Nothing for shame. Nothing for pain. Nothing for the actual "injury" as it was not monetary. Is that clear enough for you?
Daas Torah quoated Siman 2:1 of Hoshen Mishpat in an attempt to say that a B"D could impose some sort of discretionary fine or punishment. I disagreed with him, and still do. He brought R' Eliashiv's psak, in which he quote's the Rashba quoting that source. My argument was(and is) that while R' Eliashiv may have laid some framwework for the possibility, he only extended the power to the contacting of civil authorities and turning the perpatrator over to them.
However, my guess is that you don't read Hebrew so well, so here is my translation of that piece from Hoshen Mishpat,
Any Beis Din, even one whose judges lack semicha attained in the Land of Israel, if it sees the nation wantonly sinning (and emergency measures are necessary) (Tur), it can punish with death, monetary measures or other means of punishment, even in the absence of solid evidence. If the accused is strong and violent, the court can call in non-Jews to beat him. (The courts also have the power to divest people of their property, or destroy belongings, as the judges see fit as essential temporary measures to control the
generation) (Tur in the name of the Rambam, Laws of Sanhedrin Chap. 24). All of their actions must be for the sake of Heaven. Such powers, however, rest only
with the Gadol HaDor of the generation or with the city’s finest citizens when the community appoints them over them as a court.
What this means is that there is a possibility(for sure according to Daas Torah) that if the Gadol HaDor would rule this to be enough of an immediate emergency that was causing the nation to go astray, then the judges could provide discretionary punishments. However, there is no basis for what those would be. They are discretionary, i.e. whatever they deem necessary to be an adequate deterant. So theoretically a B"D could execute someone, or castrate them, or... whatever they deem fit. However, I am fairly certain that this at best would be a machloket(argument) amongst the great Rabbis of the day, and as far as I know, they only ruling given the Gadol HaDor is to go to the secular authorities... As this power(as stated above) ultimately rests with him, until he speaks further, that is it. One is permitted under this halacha, according to the Gadol Hador, to prosecute a fellow Jew(normally prohibitted) in a non-Jewish court and to seek civil damages(i.e. sue) a fellow Jew(normally prohibited) in a civil court of non-Jews.
When I said initially to read the comments before you commnet, I was refering to when you said,
"Mekubal:
The main victims of sexual abuse on minors are not boys, but girls... So give me a break. Don't forbid boy's choirs, as long as choir directors do not resort to castration in order to keep their "voice material" intact (c.f. catholic church in the 16/17. century). "
As I had just written a long post stating why, we do not ban boys choirs, based on the infrequency of occurence of homosexual pedophilia. In other words(for those whom big words are a problem) it does not happen that often.
For the record my own blog says about myself,
I am a good Jewish boy from New Jersey, a cousin to the Baba Sali and a descedent of the Ari Z"L amongst others, that after obtaining semicha made the daring leap of seeking to learn Kabbalah. So I came to Jewtopia(Israel), called myself Hareidi and found my way into one of the most prestigious Kabbalistic Yeshivot in the world. What follows are my observations on the world around me...
You couldn't even get that part right in your attempt to insult me. So please read things thoroughly first, and then ask your questions if don't understand(which is clear is a problem for you) and comment according to what others actually write, instead of hallucinatory assumptions about what they say.
mekubal said...
ReplyDeleteHe cites the Rashba who is talking about that approach. However, R' Eliashiv is using it in specific reference to turning a person over to secular authority. It does not seem that he has necessarily given the B"D the power to act as it sees fit, but rather the ability to turn a person over the secular authorities.
I see how an inference possibly could be made that the B"D has other powers, but I am unconvinced that this was his intent in that specific Teshuva.
The ground work has been definitely laid, but I would still like to see a more definitive Teshuva on exactly what a B"D could do and how far it could go.
==========
See Aruch HaShulchan who does not place any restriction on what can be done as long as it is for the needs of the community
ערוך השולחן חושן משפט סימן ב
סעיף א
אע"פ שאין דנין בחו"ל דיני נפשות ומלקות וקנסות מ"מ אם רואים ב"ד שהשעה צריכה לכך שהעם פרוצים בעבירות דנים הכל כפי צורך השעה ואפילו כשרואים ליחיד שהוא פרוץ בעבירות יכולים לקנסו כפי ראות עיניהם ובלבד שתהיה כוונתם לשמים ואפילו אין בדבר עדות גמורה אלא שיש רגלים לדבר וקלא דלא פסיק וליכא אויבים דמפקי לקלא אם נראה שזהו צורך שעה לדונו בכך וכך צריכים לעשות כן אם יש יכולת בידם שאם נעמיד הכל על הדין ונצריך עדים והתראה נמצא העולם חרב ולא חרבה ירושלים אלא מפני שהעמידו דבריהם על דין תורה [רשב"א בתשובות חלק ג' סי' שצ"ג] ויש להם רשות לייסרו בגופו וממונו כפי שרואים לגדור הפרצה ואם הוא אלם עושים ע"י ערכאות המלוכה והם יצוו עליו עשה מה שדת ישראל אומר לך וכל מי שיש כח בידו לעשות סייג לתורה ואינו עושה אין לו סייג בעוה"ז ובעוה"ב ולא נין ונכד ועצור ועזוב [ב"י בשם מדרש הנעלם] וכן מחוייבים להשגיח שלא ימצא חלילה בין ישראל איזה מחשבת מרד אף בלב נגד אדונינו הקיר"ה ושריו וכבר אמרו חז"ל שהקב"ה השביע את ישראל שלא ימרודו במלכיות [כתובות קי"א א] וכתיב [משלי כד, כא] ירא את ד' בני ומלך ומלכותא דארעא כעין מלכותא דרקיע:
סעיף ב
וכח זה הוא רק לגדול בתורה או לטובי העיר שטובי העיר בעירם כחם כב"ד הגדול ובזמנינו מוטל על הרב וטובי העיר לגדור פרצות ישראל בכל יכולתם וכל אשר יעשו איזה מכס מוכרחים הצבור לקיים אף דאיכא רווחא להאי ופסידא להאי כיון שדבר זה נוגע לתקוני הצבור או למיגדר מילתא ומי שמעכב בזה או מקלקל הוא חבירו של ירבעם בן נבט ואל תשגיח אם יש גם מהלומדים שמחזקים המהרסים דמסתמא אין בהם יראת שמים דוק ותשכח:
@mekubal:
ReplyDelete1) read your own blog where you say that your rabbi or so called you "haRav hamekubal"
2) My opinion about mekubalim is even worse after this last post you wrote.
Daat Torah,
ReplyDeleteI understand that the B"D has no limitations once the need is there. My concern and uncertainty is over whether the current problems faced with sexual molestation fit the factor of
אם רואים ב"ד שהשעה צריכה לכך שהעם
פרוצים בעבירות
Have we reached a point that the people are going astray after aveirot.
I see two possibilities:
1) To link molestation with all other sexual aveirot, and then say that it is obviously a problem in this generation, and to deal with it accordingly as the B"D and Gedolei HaTorah see fit.
2) To consider the infrequency of occurence of this specific problem and thus not to see it as a going astray of the entire generation or the people in general.
Those are my initial reactions. After reviewing the Siman with the Meforshim, I find better backing for your position in the Sm"a S"K 3.
So I am going to say Tiuvta on this issue. It would appear according to the words of the Sm"a that even with a yachid a B"D can do as they see fit.
Honestly that position worries me some as it would also seem to give support to the so called "modesty" squads. Your thoughts on that and appropriate boundaries and limits would be interesting.
Shoshi,
ReplyDeletePlease bring a direct quote from by blog where it says that. Give a reference. If there is one. Anyone can sling mud, but you have yet to back any of yours up.
Secondly I don't see why you are so upset. I answered your questions, that was what you wanted. I gave you halachic sources from the Shulchan Aruch, in english so that they would be easily understood. As well as easily referenced.
You make demands for information and you use derogatory comments when you don't think your demands are met, but then you make further derogatory comments when they are.
At first I thought that you simply only scimmed the discussion, and did not thoroughly read people's posts before commenting. Now I am beginning to think that you simply wish to attempt to stir up trouble. What are your motives exactly? If you have genuine questions why can you not be respectful of others?
As far as what you think of mekubalim or me, I frankly don't care. If giving you honest answers(even those you may not like) from Torah sources lowers your estimation... Well then I don't know what you were expecting, but it obviously wasn't any true mekubalim.
Shoshi,
ReplyDeletePlease bring a specific quote where I say that on my blog, as well as http reference.
I have a hard time understanding your angst and anger. People give you honest answers with Torah sources to your questions and react with anger and disrespect. Or do you consider,
You gave no answer...
...so it all just amounts to blabla...
to be a respectful form of discourse.
At first I thought that you just didn't read the ongoing discussion thorougly. You must realize that you came into an already underway discussion with a series of questions. Then you became quite petulant when everyone did not immediately give you the answers that you wanted. Though they did try to answer your questions.
I even answered your questions again and specifically brought you the sources form the Shulchan Aruch in English. Yet this some how upsets you? I have to ask you what are your motives here? You don't seem to be here for the sake of contributing to the discussion.
Frankly, by the way, I really don't care what you think of me, or mekubalim. If giving you answers from Torah sources, "lowers your estimation" then I don't think you really have a good view of who true mekubalim are.
"Various studies have determined that of adult men only 21% have any sort of sexual attraction to pre-pubescent children."
ReplyDeleteMy cousin told me to make sure that my son goes accompanied to Bar Mitzvah lessons. I still don't understand why he can't just learn from Troupe Tutor like my other cousin's son did. Anyway, one of his older siblings or his father have been taking him.
Bar Mitzvah lessons have become a "yichud" issue.
Jersey Girl,
ReplyDeleteI don't know that halachicaly they have become a yichud issue. I would have to see a psak from a major Rav for that. However, I do think that a great number of parents out of fear, and out of concern have taken on added precautions. Ultimately everyone needs decide for themselves what is necessary.
Rationally with all the studies I would say that it is over the top and somewhat irrational. However, being a parent myself I fully understand. I have enough worries about Ganim, and things like that. Fortunately I will be able to tutor my own childrn to lein.
As a parent I look at it this way. People play the lottery with a lot less chance of something happening. I am not willing to gamble with my children. In the current enviroment where we find that Rabbis have gone decades without punishment, all the more so.
I know that it is not a real yichud issue. But everyone is being very cautious, as you say.
ReplyDeleteMy father did not let us sleep outside of our house except for our grandparents. My father said, 35 years ago, "I don't know anyone outside of the family well".
I wanted to go to NCSY in High School and my father said "No, he does not know the Rabbi well". Do you know who it was?? Baruch Lanner!!
The gemara in Avoda Zara says that bnei yisroel are not choshud on mishkav zochor and therefore there is no issur of Yichud with men in general.
ReplyDeleteOf course, if there is an individual for which there is some evidence of wrongful behavior, even if it is not yet substantiated, caution would be necessary.
I don't believe that it can be said that this generation of shomrei Torah umitzvos have fallen below the standard set by the gemara in Avoda Zara.
By the way, Mekubal, why do you say that you would take being called Chareidi an insult?
tzoorba said...
ReplyDeleteThe gemara in Avoda Zara says that bnei yisroel are not choshud on mishkav zochor and therefore there is no issur of Yichud with men in general.
=========================
We don't posken directly from gemora
Shulchan Aruch says:
שולחן ערוך אבן העזר כד
סעיף א
לא נחשדו ישראל על משכב זכר ועל הבהמה, לפיכך אין איסור להתייחד עמהן, ואם נתרחק אפילו מיחוד זכר ובהמה, הרי זה משובח. וגדולי החכמים היו מרחיקין הבהמה, כדי שלא יתייחדו עמה. ובדורות הללו שרבו הפריצים, יש להתרחק מלהתייחד עם הזכר.
Aruch HaShulchan writes:
ערוך השולחן אבן העזר סימן כד
סעיף ו
אע"פ שבכל העריות נאסר יחוד מ"מ בזכור ובהמה אין איסור להתייחד עמהם דלא נחשדו ישראל על כך על משכב זכור ועל הבהמה אמנם אם נתרחק אפילו מיחוד זכר ובהמה ה"ז משובח וגדולי החכמים היו מרחיקין הבהמה כדי שלא יתייחדו עמה ובמקומות שרבו הפרוצים בזה יש ליזהר ולהתרחק מיחוד עמהם ובמדינתינו אין זה רק ממדת חסידות [ב"ח] ומ"מ יש למנוע בכל מקום שלא ישנו יחד שני רווקים ואין נוהגין כן וח"ו מעולם לא שמענו לחוש לזה והנזהר תבוא עליו ברכה:
Tzoorba,
ReplyDeleteMy blog no longer says that, and it hasn't for some time. When it did there were various reasons. One had several friends who were dealing with the Kolko issue, and other such things. Also one of my wife's dear friends had been severely beaten, and otherwise horribly disgraced(I don't want to go into details) for sitting in the wrong place on the #1 bus, by a so called "modesty" squad.
That along with several other issues, lead me to feel... not very good... toward that particular community.
For the record, I have since reconciled myself to the fact that not everyone who calls themselves Chareidi and "puts on the uniform" is truly Chareidi, even some Rabbanim.
Thus if you check my blog now you will find that it says that I am no longer sure. Yes in the US I would be classified as Chareidi, however, as a Sephardi living here in Israel, with all that entails, as well as choosing to live a somewhat modern life(i.e. have internet in the home)... I am not sure that I fit the Israeli mold of what is considered Chareidi, nor am I sure that I want to.
It is noted that shoshi is using a common Christian missionary tactic of trying to discredit a person with whom she disagrees.
ReplyDelete"It is noted that shoshi is using a common Christian missionary tactic of trying to discredit a person with whom she disagrees."
ReplyDeleteHuh?? Where did that come from?
I've just been lurking on this fascinating thread. I may be missing something here, but Shmuely's comment just seemed totally out of left field.
Yes, shmuely, finally you uncovered me: I am a christian missionary (and Mekubal is too, because he uses exactely the same tactics).
ReplyDeleteNo, my question was honest. I really hoped to obtain an answer:
1) How would a brother who forced oral sex on his sister be punished according to halacha.
2) How would he be punished in a frum community today?
3) What compensation would a victim receive?
If you need more details to answer the question, we can determine them. But this does not seem to be the problem.
PS: I do not really mind that you cannot give the answer.
ReplyDeleteAs it says in pirkey avot: When he does not know the answer, he says I do not know.
Mekubal said,
ReplyDelete"We don't posken directly from gemora"
That's true but your conclusion didn't come out different than mine. The ama diber is, as the Aruch Hashulchan states, not to refrain from having 2 keshairim share a room.
Do the modesty squads belong to any particular group? I can't imagine Litvaks belonging to such a group nor any Roshei Yeshiva approving of their methods.
"It is noted that shoshi is using a common Christian missionary tactic of trying to discredit a person with whom she disagrees. "
ReplyDeleteI thought it was Roni/Tropper tactic
The questin beomes why doesn't Shoshi just state her disagreements? This blog has had some fairly open discussions. Why not argue the points instead of falling back to Ad-hominem?
ReplyDeleteThat's my curiousty anyway. It feels odd to have someone initially make the claim that there is no issur, and then start arguing about psak Din against such a grave offense(which they initially claimed didn't exist).
Odd.
Tzoorba,
ReplyDeletePlease go back and read that comment again about not Poskening directly from the Gemarra because it came from Daas Torah, not me.
Personally I would have said that you are right, and here are Rishonim and Achronim that back you up... That was the way I learned halacha and the way my Rabbanim taught me to Psak.
As far as "modesty" squads, there are several. All claim to be backed by some Gadol, though I have yet to actually see that in living color(i.e. a Haskama or a Gadol signing off on one). There was a Ha-Aretz article, where a certain major Rabbi from a certain Chassidic sect claimed to have authorization from that Rebbe for the activities of his "enforcers". However, and this is why I have left all of that unnamed, I know of that Rebbe, I have met with him privately at times to discuss personal issues, have read some of his and his predecessor's works, and I simply do not believe that he would sign off on anything like that. I do not know if the individual Rabbis is being untruthful or if the paper made a mistake.
However, in like circumstances, I have seen paskilim from differing modesty squads claiming authority from any number of Gedolim both Litvak and Ashkenaz. At one point I believed them... however after an intervention of sorts with a Rav who I really trusted, who actually took me to speak with a number of these Gedolim about this issue... I don't believe that they are true.
To give you an example of a recent absurdity there was a newer group that calls themselves the "Sicarii" that claim authoriztion from a Litvak Gadol. Let's be honest... any Gadol will know what the Gemarra says about those that call themselves the "Sicarii" and would at the very least advise them to change their name.
@Mekubal:
ReplyDeleteAs I pointed out, I am disappointed that no-one on this blog could anwer my questions.
Here are my questions:
1) What would be the punishement, according to halacha, for a brother forcing oral sex (repeatedly) on his sister.
2) What could be his punishement in a frum community of today.
3) What would be the compensation the victim would be entitled to from the perpetrator, according to halacha.
Furthermore, I did not like Mekubal's "ad-hominem-Attacks", to take up his terminology.
If you gave the answers and I missed them please repeat.
"It could be anything from death penalty, castration, etc" was a bit too vague for me.
If you need further details to answer the questions, either ask back or assume a hypothesis and make it clear in your answer.
PS:
ReplyDeleteAccording to what you say, Batey Din cannot "hear" any cases of corporal damage, murder, etc. Did I understand that right?
So how are these cases dealt with?
I heard that it is not allowed for a Jew to go to a non-jewish court.
Does this only apply for the cases that the beis din can "hear"? Or does it even apply for murder, bodily harm, etc?
If this is the case, there is a huge hole in the system as a whole. How is this dealt with?
shoshi said...
ReplyDeleteAs I pointed out, I am disappointed that no-one on this blog could anwer my questions.
----------------------
Shoshi you seem to have a reading comprehension problem. Your questions have been answered a number of times but you don't seem to be aware of it. In addition your abusive - in your face approach - is really appropriate on some other blog.
Let me try one more time
1) There are no courts with genuine semchicha today. See Mekubal's answer from Simon 1 in Choshen Mishpat. Thus many crimes can not be dealt with according to Torah law.
2) However Simon 2 says that a community can protect itself and thus can try to do what it sees as necessary.
Thus in certain periods of times - death penalties, beatings or disfigurement - as well as large fines - were given as punishment by Jewish courts (punishment carried out by or with the approval of the non-Jewish government).
Today communities are typically not in the position to force someone to pay a penalty. If they were - a community might see fit to levy a large fine or a beating to someone a particular crime. Since the penalty depends on the subjective view of the judges or community - it would not be standardized.
Jewish courts do not deal with murder cases etc and thus they are dealt with by the secular courts.
The issues of when and how and if one goes to a secular court is not appropriately summarized on a blog. Each case is different - so ask your local rabbi regarding a particular case.
Not everything can be made simple for people with little or no background - which is obviously where you are holding. Your assumption that no one "knows" and that you have somehow found a question that has everyone stumped is simple wrong. Not everything is appropriate for discussion on a public blog with people from diverse backgrounds - who might seriously misunderstand what is being discussed.
Let's sum up where the debate started:
ReplyDeleteA boy was raped, reported it to his rabbi, his rabbi told him not to do anything (i.e. not to go to court)
I was astonished at this reaction, all the more because homosexuality (and i suppose so even more so homosexual rape) is considered very reprehensible by torah law.
Bottom line: the victim had to bear all the burden of this crime alone, the perpetrator was not punished in any form by the orthodox community.
This is a great injustice in my eyes.
And I am very astonished, that a community that is so keen on making "fences" in order to avoid sins, would not take any measures in such a case.
Furthermore, this does not seem to be an isolated case. It looks as if the attitude "shut up and bear it out" was quite widespread, for various reasons.
So I tried to find a way how it could be done that the victim does not have to bear all the burden alone.
- If it is established from the beginning that batey din are not competent to deal with crimes like sexual abuse, a solution might be that victims are automatically referred to the local court system, and that this decision is made known to the general public, so that every victim who might suffer abuse is aware of it. (i.e. publicise: if you are abused, go straight to the police)
- Perhaps Rabbonim could also publicise a ruling that goes as follows: a person who commited a sexual crime is not considered "a g-d fearing Jew" (for obvious reasons), so the victim (who knows for sure that the crime occured, for obvious reasons) can persecute him in a non-jewish court. (The result would be the same: Go to the police if abused.)
- Another approach would be to compensate the victim for the damage suffered.
- A combination of both approaches would also be possible, since the US court system could also calculate compensations.
PS: I agree that I have sometimes a quite provocative approach, saying the contrary of what I want to hear, in order to be proved wrong.
In this case, however, I asked my questions in bona fidae. I also said in bona fidad that the answers you gave did not seem satisfactory to me.
Soshi,
ReplyDeleteThe Gadol HaDor has pubilicized that very psak. Here is where we discussed its strengths and weaknesses on this forum:
http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2008/11/child-abuse-callling-police-harav.html
BTW, this was mentioned in the discussion above, I guess you missed it.
Let's sum up where the debate started:
ReplyDeleteA boy was raped, reported it to his rabbi, his rabbi told him not to do anything (i.e. not to go to court)
I was astonished at this reaction,..
=================
There is no relationship between how serious a crime and the ability to do something about it. Without know the details of the case - it is possible that the ability to prove that the crime took place was not likely, that if the crime took place there would be many who would suffer or it could be that his rabbi was simple was not willing to pay the price to do what was right.
===========
You solutions - which seem quite reasonable and fair - presuppose a rabbinate which is united around a common value system and is concerned primarily with the individual. That unfortunately is simply not so. The same problem occurs with your suggestion for compensation. The rabbis are part of the society and are very much concerned with the perception of the Jewish community and the perception of the secular system.
Even in the case of child abuse - most cases do not go to trial - and of these about 10% result in some form of penalty - possibly just probation. So to go to great expense and personal embarrassment just for a suspended sentence or acquital - is just not worth it.
Regarding your style of writing - confrontational style sometimes works - but not here. We are all wrestling with these problems - but it is easier if we work together and not against each other.
"There is no relationship between how serious a crime and the ability to do something about it. Without know the details of the case - it is possible that the ability to prove that the crime took place was not likely, that if the crime took place there would be many who would suffer or it could be that his rabbi was simple was not willing to pay the price to do what was right."
ReplyDeleteI agree with you on this point. And I also agree that the persecution of sexual child abuse is not only a problem within the frum jewish community.
As you said, many sexual crimes (in general society) remain unpunished, because the victim does not realise it is a crime, because the victim is intimidated, because the victim decides not to go to court, because of lack of proof, statutes of limitation, etc. or receive a punishment that seems much to mild for me (recent case in Switzerland: 5 years imprisonment for over 1000 incestual rapes, some of them beyond the statute of limitations).
I suppose that religion, and jewish religion in particular can help a victim in healing. However, I have the impression that too many are choked by their silence.
The abuse can cause body memories (living again through the feelings during abuse), sleepless nights, fear of body contact. This in turn can lead to inability to work, inability to get married, self injury, suicidal thoughts and even suicide.
When a girl behaves "strangely" in such a "conformist" society (as the chareidi one) and people do not know why, all the blame is laid on her. If she cannot marry, what perspectives does she have as a "spinster" in a frum society?
In some cases, the facts are undisputed, but the victim agrees not to go to court. Perhaps out of fear of the procedures, perhaps because they were told that they should not "ruin the life of the perpetrator", who might be a relative.
In these cases, the victim should at least get monetary compensation high enough to give them some indepence, to get treatment, to study (even outside the classical paths of the frum community). Just to stay with the parents, be always dependend, be told what to do is not a solution.
This was the reason why I asked this question and would have liked to receive an answer.
Shoshi wrote:
ReplyDeleteThis was the reason why I asked this question and would have liked to receive an answer.
======================
I think we have different understandings of the word "answer."
I answered you.
Even if they could institute such a procedure - where is the money coming from? You are talking about quite a bit of money - which the average molestor or sexual abuser doesn't have.
"Even if they could institute such a procedure - where is the money coming from? You are talking about quite a bit of money - which the average molestor or sexual abuser doesn't have."
ReplyDeleteThat's exactely what it is all about.
The present situation is that the victim gets the pain, the blame, and is marginalised by society.
Treatment is paid either by healt insurance (why should society pay for the crimes of the criminal) or by the victim herself or the victim does not get treatment. In any case, the victim is the one who has to "beg" for the necessary money.
At the same time, the offender lives on with his life, gets married, sets up a family (abuses his own children in some cases), and is a well-respected personality in society.
If the offender has to pay for the damage he has done, even if he cannot pay in fact, it is he who has the debts, and the victim who has the money. And this is the way it should be.
Of course, you cannot solve everything with money. But at least, financial compensation could help to set right some basic wrongs that are done to the victim after the crime itself.
Furthermore, I have the impression that too many people dodge their responsibilities, and the silent victims have to pay for it.
PS: You said:
"that if the crime took place there would be many who would suffer"
Do you really think that this is a legitimate reason not to persecute, i.e. to let the victim alone with the suffering?
(Until now, I understood that you were ready to defend the victim, from the fact that you said you are a psychologist who treated sexual abuse victims and because you said you planned to write a book on sexual abuse and halachic sources. I might have to change my opinion on this.)
Shoshi wrote
ReplyDeletePS: You said:
"that if the crime took place there would be many who would suffer"
Do you really think that this is a legitimate reason not to persecute, i.e. to let the victim alone with the suffering?
======================
The victim also suffers from prosecution. That is why many do not prosecute. His family also suffers. It is not a black and white picture. You are going back into attack mode. It really doesn't help your cause.
"the family also suffers"
ReplyDeleteThis is perhaps a point where we do not agree.
While I agree that a person who suffered abuse should not go to court against her will, I do not agree that she should refrain from going to court because "the family also suffers".
This is the point where religion can have an adverse effect:
I get the impression that "altruism" is a very important aspect in jewish education, especially for girls.
So it might be that a girl suffering sexual abuse understands that it is her religious duty to sacrifice herself, to bear the burden alone, not to bother anyone with her sorrows.
I suppose that this state of mind helps offenders, because it keeps the sufferer of abuse from speaking and ending the abuse. (However, I am aware that persons who suffer sexual abuse can be paralysed for other reasons).
Furthermore, offendres are often masters of manipulation and know to blur moral values.
These moral values have to be set right at some stage. i.e. someone has to say clearly that the offender committed a crime and that the person who suffered abuse is not to blame.
This is a thing you cannot just solve alone.
Therefore, I think that the condemnation of the offender court, financial compensation, or at least a theoretic halachic ruling for the crimes committed can help set the record right.
PS: if you want to know more about the "life after abuse in the frum society", here is a link.
ReplyDeletehttp://sheffele.blogspot.com/
Shoshi,
ReplyDeleteThat is a powerful blog.
If that is the case you are dealing with specifically, based on what is written on her blog, I can tell you what should have happened.
The parent's should have consulted a competent Rav, by this I mean not a pulpit Rav. The reason being that many(if not most) pulpit Rabbanim in the US have Semicha in Issur V'Heter only. Meaning that they can tell you what is Kosher or not. They may also have Semicha in Shabbos. A really high quality Rav(and these are rare) will have passed all five areas of the Rabbinut Exam. Sad I know, but that is the way it is. However, to deal with a case like this, a Rav needs to be expert in the laws found in Choshen Mispat... which most Pulpit Rabbanim have never read.
So consult a competant Rav, preferablly an Av Beit Din, or some other Gadol.
Based on when and how the situation seemed to come to an end, the Rav should have, at least in my opinion, have told the parents to refer the matter to the authorities. The primary reason I say this is that an extreme level of predatory behavior was exhibited, and so there is a very good liklihood that he will repeat when the time is right.
When that process was done there should have been some measure taken to inform the community. He should have been excluded from community events, and the shidduch process until such a time as that he could convince a compentant B"D that there was little liklihood that he was still a danger(essentially placed in niduy).
As far as damages, the B"D may have been able to level a fine and tell the parents that they could sue, but given the fact that it is family I doubt that woudl have happened.
If this is the situation that you are currently involved in, as you mentioned above that you were currently inovled in a situation. I would suggest that you contact a competant Rav, R' Sternbuch, R' Eliashiv, R' Feinstein, or someone of similar caliber. If you are unable to contact them, I would suggest contacting R' Twerski and seeing who he recomends working with as far as Rabbinic supervision to keep everything with the bounds of halacha.
From the blog it seems that none of what I had mentioned happened. Which means, that in all probability, the offender will place himself in position to once again target children. Perhaps his own, perhaps those of others, perhaps both. Because of the premeditation of the many of the acts described as well as the long term duration of the abuse, it is quite impossible to rule this as simple sexual curiousity gone astray. Enough Yeshiva bochurim without stunning morals find a consentual and legal way to vent that. This really is hard core predatory behavior and will in all liklihood be repeated. Truth is that it would not surprise me to find out in the future that this young man has become a teacher at a elmentary or girls school sometime in the future, and having learned from his past mistakes will be more careful and could ChV"Sh go a long time without being caught and yet able to hurt others.
http://www.vosizneias.com/18474/2008/07/24/stamford-hill-london-%E2%80%93-williamsburg-controversial-activist-hackled-flees-to-get-police-protection/
ReplyDeletecomment 82:
"A member of my family was molested and the Molester who admitted was begging that his name should not be made public or that we should call the child abuse services. The rav that was involved also asked that we should be quiet..What do you think happened? not a year went by and a another child victim by the same molester."
Comment 48
"Unfortunatly the rabonim have, and are cotinuing to do absoloutly nothing about the REAL issue of child molestation in our moisdes. I'm speaking of close personel expirience of a family member of mine that was molested, and is currently fighting with the Moised to throw the molester out. To all the people out there making light of this subject matter, You should never know what this does to a child, but do your children a favor and educate yourselves on this horrendous issue, you will be singing a different tune once you do."
This is the situation I was referring to, and it seems quite common to me, either in this set-up or without the intervention of a Rabbi, i.e. the person who suffered abuse just keeps quiet:
ReplyDelete"...Molester who admitted was begging that his name should not be made public or that we should call the child abuse services. The rav that was involved also asked that we should be quiet."
I this case, the person who suffered abuse should receive at least a substantial compensation.
After the exchange on this blog, I came to the conclusion, that it was better not to take a lump sum, but to have the molestor pay the consequences as they come up, because it might be difficult to evalutate them from the beginning. i.e. A person who was sexually abused cannot know how long the treatment will go, how much it will cost, what other functions will be affected (inability to have confidance, inability to work, inability to build relations, inability to marry etc). But the Rabbinic authorities should look to it that the principle of compensation is enforced (either by them or by non-jewish authorities).
http://www.vosizneias.com/18474/2008/07/24/stamford-hill-london-%E2%80%93-williamsburg-controversial-activist-hackled-flees-to-get-police-protection/
ReplyDeleteComment 80
"we have proffesionals Like Rabbi Horowitz and Pelcovitz that deal with these issues with discretion and care for the acussed and acusser."
(Never mind the spelling errors, it adds authenticity).
Rabbi Horowitz has quite a good reputation in dealing with sexual abuse. However, I fear that he also favours "discretion", i.e. silence, and I think that this is not a wise decision.
Because the person who suffered abuse remains in a kind of "double bind". On one hand, the rabbi/family are ready to assist, to help, to support.
But on the other hand, the "burden of silence" still remains on the person who was abused, while the abuser remains unscathed.
Abuser - manipulator
ReplyDeleteYou have to be aware that sexual abusers are often very cunning manipulators, and they take advantage of whatever ideology to can to furhter their cause.
In the "sexual liberation movement" of 68, they just could say "don't be so old-fashioned".
In the context of a "more free sexual education", they could say "I just try to teach her what it is all about".
In the context of the frum community, they say "You are a mosser" "You will have problems with shidduchim if you tell" "I will have problems with shidduchim if you tell" "My family will suffer" "Your family will suffer" "Have merci on me and pardon me, I will not do it any more" "You should not be so cruel with me"
And since the victim was educated to be kind-hearted and forgiving, she will forgive indeed, without knowing really what is at stake, i.e. what damage she suffered in reality.
The abusers are even able to manipulate their therapists, and to go on molesting while they tell the therapists "I really understand I did something bad, etc".
The problem is, that the "subconscious" can play many tricks to the rabbis, therapists, parents, etc involved:
They really do not want that the issue is publicised, for various reasons (reputation of the community, repercussions on family, etc). So they tell themselves: anyway, it is also better for the person who suffered abuse that nothing comes out.
This way, they fool themselves, and often the person who suffered abuse has to pay the price.
Because the frum community does not have much patience with people who deviate from the norm.
Just take these two cases:
1) How would a frum community deal with a young girl who had a (consesual) romantic liaison with someone and is pregnant?
I suppose: scandal, ousted, sent abroad, etc.
2) In the case above the Rabbis agreed that a person who suffered sexual abuse should remain silent, so as not to destroy the "reputation of the abuser".
So where is justice?
Where are the values of this community?
PS: This is also where I see a problem with the sources cited by Daas torah in this post:
ReplyDeleteIf I understand them right, there is no genuine distinction between
- consensual homosexuality and homosexual rape
- Forced oral sex and masturbation
etc.
I do not say that this is what causes sexual abuse, because sexual abuse exists in every society, and abusers will take every excuse they can find.
But when you say "it is a mortal sin to be homosexual" "it is a mortal sin to masturbate", in some sense, it can happen that the young people loose the sense of priorities. "Be a homosexual, rape a boy, it all amounts to the same"...
You see what I mean?
shoshi said...
ReplyDeletePS: This is also where I see a problem with the sources cited by Daas torah in this post:
If I understand them right, there is no genuine distinction between
- consensual homosexuality and homosexual rape
- Forced oral sex and masturbation
etc.
==============
I think are getting confused. Please try again
If on the "value scale"
ReplyDelete- eating bread on pessach
is equal or worse than
- raping a girl who is not nida, not engaged, not married"
I think the whole value system has a problem.
PS: This problem does not just arise within the system of jewish law. It is, in general, the kind of problems that "law philosophy" deals with: The legislator (or judge) defines a punishment for every single transgression, but problems can arise once you start comparing the punishments between them.
one gets coreis one does not.
Deletewho gets the bigger gehenom. depends on the circumstance only hashem knows.
PS: This notwithstanding, it could be that the torah and torah law contains the right tools to deal with the problem.
ReplyDeletee.g. If the torah said: if someone rapes a girl who is not engaged, not married, he should either marry her (with her father's (and I suppose her consent) or pay her to compensate the loss of virginity"
and if you take it to mean today that he should pay her, every year of her remaining life, a bit more than the average salary in the us, adapted to the index (i.e. every year more, because of inflation), let's say $ 50'000 a year, plus healing costs, it could be an acceptable settlement.
So perhaps torah law contains the tools to be at the forefront to fight the problems of our society.
It's just that the rabbis should see it and enforce it.
I think, I have made my points now, so I will leave this blog before Daas torah or Mekubal start insulting me again, since I do not like it.
Shoshi,
ReplyDeleteThis is the situation I was referring to, and it seems quite common to me, either in this set-up or without the intervention of a Rabbi, i.e. the person who suffered abuse just keeps quiet:
"...Molester who admitted was begging that his name should not be made public or that we should call the child abuse services. The rav that was involved also asked that we should be quiet."
Sorry the problem here is mine. I am sure exactly what specific case that you are referring to.
I understand that this is an emotional issue for you, and I think that you have an ability to help many on this board understand how those who perhaps do not spend all of their time learning in depth halachic sources view the things that come out of our community.
However, it may be more conducive to the conversation if you slowed down in your posting some.
For instance you wanted to bring in the Vos iz naious. It probably would have been better, and perhaps would still be beneficial if you emailed the link to D"T and suggested that he make it a Main Post. Personally I think it would make a great main post.
Yes we do need to analyze the way our community deals with abuse. Yes your questions and what you bring to the discussion is relevant and will be helpful. Unfortunately, at least for me, it gets confusing when you post three or four things in rapid fire. It becomes hard to know where you are headed and how to give a cogent response.
If I understand them right, there is no genuine distinction between
ReplyDelete- consensual homosexuality and homosexual rape
- Forced oral sex and masturbation
There are major differences. All are forbidden, but the level to which they are forbidden differs.
To give you an example Homosexual sex carries a death penalty(no longer enforciable) for both parties. Homosexual rape carries a death penalty only for the rapist.
In more modern terms
If one masturbates and repents and wishes to do teshuva and make a tikkun according to the ARI, one needs to fast 84 days.
If one committs a homosexual act and after teshuva wishes to do a tikun he must fast 233 days.
If one raped someone, in addition to the above mentioned fasting, he can only secure a proper tikun when he secures true and complete forgiveness from the victim.
While according to the sources all of these things are Ossur, either from the Torah or from the Rabbis the full extent of their prohibition and consequence varies.
One cannot however compare eating bread on Pesach to these things. And the reasons once understood are profound. Eating bread involves a denial of the Exodus, and possibily a denial of the very existance of God. Spiritually these things are worlds(on a Kabbalistic level they are literally worlds apart) apart, to the point that is impossible to say that one is a graver aveirah than another.
The broader you make this topic the harder it will become to discuss. Please try to focus it down to something such as "ideal response" and "real response" that would at least help me to beneficially discuss this with you.
woah. shoshi, why didn't i get linked to this? or did i get linked and not read the comments...
ReplyDeletemekubal, just for clarity:
rabbanim who are quite knowledgeable in this area were consulted in my case. it was decided, after taking various factors into account, that we should not prosecute. the issue of the possibility of future offenses by "jack" is being dealt with.
shoshi, i think it would be prudent for you to tell the commenters here that neither english nor hebrew is your first language, and that may have contributed to the communication problems.
da'as torah, i'll admit, i'm not reading so well myself at the moment, so please correct me if i'm missing something, but i have a slight problem with this statement: "Even if they could institute such a procedure - where is the money coming from? You are talking about quite a bit of money - which the average molestor or sexual abuser doesn't have."
tell me, where do abuse survivors get this money then? i'm going to use myself as an example here, only because i know that i can answer any questions on my situation properly.
i'm in my twenties. i am unable to hold down a job due to PTSD from my abuse. (shoshi posted a link to my blog) i have no health insurance, and even if i did, mental health coverage is pretty bad.
expenses in the treatment of PTSD-(with insurance. i have not had many expenses since i lost my insurance, only because i had the Siyatta D'Shmaya to receive 14 weeks of free counseling. i will have unknown expenses when this runs out)
therapy, twice weekly: $420
psychiatrist, once monthly: $125
copays on medications, monthly: $15-$60
total: $560-$605
this does not include: transportation to and from therapy, extra medications because of changes, extra therapy/psychiatrist visits during crisis.
where does an unemployed individual get this money? in most cases, the perpertrator has a steady job. he is the one with the income. shouldn't HE be the one paying for the results of HIS actions?
i did not read the whole thread though, so maybe i'm missing some information here?
Hi little Sheep,
ReplyDeletethanks for your support, I can really need it.
You know, I am used to understanding things that are not in my mother tongue and not in my "speciality". That's kind of my profession.
So I learned, that in general, when people start insulting you "You are to ignorant for me to explain you" it really means that the person insulting you does not know the answer and does not want to tell you. It's this "attack is the best defense strategy".
People who are really thoroughly knowledgeable in general know to explain their issues even to the simplest people, and they are not afraid of saying "I do not know the answer" when you hit incidentally on a question they do not know to answer.
"For instance you wanted to bring in the Vos iz naious. It probably would have been better, and perhaps would still be beneficial if you emailed the link to D"T and suggested that he make it a Main Post. Personally I think it would make a great main post."
ReplyDeleteI cited the exact source. (Who exactely has the reading comprehension problem here?) The main text on Vos is neyes is not on sexual abuse, but on the ban against Nuchem Rosenberg.
(You could have found out by following the link).
Among the commentators, there were some (I cited the numbers) who spoke about sexual abuse in their family and how it was dealt with.
I do not know if those commentators would agree for you to make a main post of their comments.
But you could take the problem as it stands: "The conspiracy of silence": how jewish education, rabbonim and their own conscience force persons who suffered sexual abuse into silence, which leaves them without compensation."
Shoshi,
ReplyDeleteI did see the link. I followed the link I read the article. That does not nullify my comment. It may have been better if you had emailed the link directly to Daas Torah with an explanation of why it is relevant to the overall discussion of abuse on his blog. Just for clarity I never said that you had a reading comprehension problem. I did say that you clearly did not read my one post in its entirety as you gave a rather hostile comment,
So give me a break. Don't forbid boy's choirs, as long as choir directors do not resort to castration in order to keep their "voice material" intact (c.f. catholic church in the 16/17. century).
When I had already stated that the low incidence of homosexual child molestation.
As far as conspiracy of silence I personally think that would make an excellent discussion. I have started along that path on a newer main post about the Nefesh conference. Feel free to join it there.
The immediate in your face appraoch that you use can be rather off putting. Here it did come across as hostile. I have tried repeatedly to answer your questions. If you still have others I would be glad to continue to try to answer your questions.
Shoshi,
ReplyDeleteThere is one other element that you seem to be missing. That is that even, assuming we could impose fines today, compensation as you are speaking is not part of Torah.
See the Rosh's comments on Perek Merubah of Bava Kama, he make's clear that the only reason for any fine is to bring the violator to Teshuva, and for that reason we should not make such fines excessive.
Even in your rape case above, the only fine that would be paid, if the couple were not married, is the Ketubah of the girl if she had been a Betulah. The idea of ongoing compensation, as you seem to want, is not found in the Torah.
@dear mekubal,
ReplyDeleteI read the tone you used with the other bloggers, and I came to the conclusion it was not appropriate.
So I stopped worrying about you speaking like this to me.
To how much would a Ketubah of a BEtulah amount in modern terms, i.e. in US$ today?
ReplyDeleteWell: if you say that a beit din in our time is not competent to impose damages in cases where bodily harm is involved, nor to handle criminal cases that involve bodily harm, I suppose that is the end of the parshe: Batey din not competent = Call the police.
ReplyDeleteMy point is: the torah law system should not be abused to withhold compensation from the victim and punishment from the culprit.
My point is: the chareidi community has tools to make people comply, why do they not use them on sexual predators?
I remember reading a "Cherem announcement" in my own community, for a case that seemed completely unjustified to me according to the details I learned. Why is not at least a Cherem pronounced in such cases????
By the way: The Amish seem to face similar problems. They have "punishment system" that goes from grounding to temporary exclusion to definitive excommunication. They too prefer to settle their problems within their system rather than going to police. In cases of sexual abuse, this system revealed itself insufficient (in one case, the punishment pronounced for making tatoos (on oneself) seems to have been much harsher then the punishment of rape or even incestual rape).
If you want to learn more about it, I recommend "My autobiography" by David E. Yoder, available on http://www.amishdeception.com/Home.htm
PS: Mekubal: I do not take what you say for face value any more. Even if you claim to have a smicha and to be a "mekubal", I suppose that you are not competent enough in the relevent areas of halacha in order to speak about them with authority.
ReplyDeleteSo I hear what you say, but I will not base my conclusions about
torah law on what you say.
I think this would be too unfair.
Price of a Ketubah. Depends on which halachic authority you follow and what the current price of silver is. As of 2002, it ran between $180 and $55,000. See
ReplyDeletehttp://www.jlaw.com/Articles/KETUBAH.pdf
I have never claimed to be a Dayyan and thus expert on any of those laws. I have said repeatedly that I am currently learning Dayyanut which means i have a background in those laws.
It is sad you feel the need to insult even when one is trying to help you.
So I learned, that in general, when people start insulting you "You are to ignorant for me to explain you" it really means that the person insulting you does not know the answer and does not want to tell you.
ReplyDeleteI wonder what you would have said to R' Kaduri Z"L, who would say to people who asked too many questions, "You are not worthy to learn Kabblah, leave." Thus removing them from his Yeshiva. I have heard from students of his when he still taught at Beit E-l that he would do the same there, effectively kicking people out of someone else's Yeshiva. That can be independantly verified from R' Tzadok of Kosher Torah.com.
Or what you would have said to my first Magid Shiur at BMG who started the Zman by saying, "I will gladly answer any question you may have once you know enough to ask a proper question."
The truth is that if one is given too much information before a proper foundation is laid it can lead to confusion and even kefira. I have no intention of insulting you when I say that your level of learning is not on a par where it can easily enter this type of discussion. This is all in the realms of Dayyanim, which is far more learning than most Rabbis will ever do. Most Rabbis never spend any serious amount of time learning these laws, let alone trying to become expert in them. One can only become a Dayyan after become a Rav(a process that takes a number of years) then one has to have the ability(financial) and willingness to devote 10-15 more years to study of these sorts of laws before one can become fluent in them. Most other Semichut the Rabbinute gives a single exam, for Dayyanut there are five consecutive exams that one takes over a course of years when one has prepared appropriately for each. Personally I have taken and passed the first two, that has taken 4 years. So please excuse me or D"T if we tell you that you are swimming in deep waters, and possibly waters that are out of your depth.
I have endeavored to answer each of your questions, asking only that you actually thoroughly read the answers before making assumptions. You seem to want full and complete answers not just sources. The truth is because of the nature of the topic and the amount of information involved a full treatment cannot be done on a blog. Not only would an exhaustive treatment take ample space, it would, because of the public nature of the blog violate the prohibitions of teaching Torah to non-Jews.
I truly don't think that you fully grasp the complexity of your question, if for no other reason than you don't seem to understand the unfounded assumptions that you are basing it on. There are two parts to your question, one is halakhic and the other is haskafic. However, the hashkafa has to be settled before we move on to the halacha.
For instance you want a guilty party to have to make some kind of reparations for mental health care. You are assuming that mental health care is a valid form of healing and that it is in line with Torah values. Take for instance this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QS2G4_CeMCY
I post that because I know the Rosh Yeshiva he learned that from.
Then there is the perspective of others such as R' Mordechai Goldstein Shlit"a, who claims that psychology/psychiatry can diagnose accurate problems but is useless to resolve or heal them. He claims that is the shitta of the Yeshiva where he learned(Chafetz Haim), and has passed that on to each of his students at his own Yeshiva. Furthermore each of his former students that have started their own Yeshivas(at least each of the one's I have spent any time at) hold the same opinion. They have passed this on to their students, some of whom are Dayyanim that will hear cases.
On the other side of the spectrum you have R' Twerski(whom I personally agree with) and Nefesh. Each side believes that it is upholding Torah with its view points. Who is right who is wrong, who can decide? Both sides have Gedolim backing them.
Those view points will radically dertermine different paths and different solutions to the problems that you give. For instance if one does not believe in mental illness, but rather that "problems" are simply a lack of emunah, middot development and Torah Study, then for instance their is no such thing as a serial abuser who has a mental problem. Rather it is simply someone who has sinned, or who has not yet mastered the teivot. Thus why should they be imprisoned or punished? They need rather to be taught and helped. They need proper musar, and chizuk. Maybe they need to make a tikun for an aveira in a past life. You don't have to take my word for it, see the move "Trembling Before God." Granted it deals with homosexuality(though one of the individuals claims to have "improper feelings" for his school children) which is not classified as a mental illness, but nevertheless is a deviance according to Torah. You will see the variety of approaches portrayed there.
There are like streams of reasoning dealing with the victims, but because they disgust me I will not share them here. It is enough to say that there are Torah opinions that, because of their view on psychology and other things, essentially blame the victims for their ongoing problems.
Once those issues are sorted one can move on to halachic issues. As if the halacha was not already complex enough, you have to factor in the above into any decision of a B"D. Their Hashkafa will determine their interpretation of halacha. Simply look at the various posts on this blog about conversion to see how that plays out in a different realm of halacha. In general the less quantifiable a problem, the more complex will be the resulting halachic dispute.
Today because of our many sins we are lacking a true Sanhedrin, and true Semicha, thus making these things all the more complex.
Siman 1 of Choshen Mispat(the laws of Dayyanim, and consequently the first thing someone learns if they are on the path to being a Dayyan) states,
In our times, Dayanim are authorized to hear cases involving loans, inheritances and gifts, admission of debt, women’s claims to their Ketubah and claims of damage to personal property. These types of disputes arise very often and involve purported monetary loss to the claimant. These are
the two necessary criteria. Lacking one of them, the case is not heard. Thus, today’s Dayanim are not authorized to hear cases about types of disputes that do not arise so often, even cases which involve certain monetary loss to the claimant, such as when someone’s animal maliciously wounds someone else’s animal. Similarly, even if something
happens almost every day, if it not a matter of compensating monetary loss, the case cannot be heard. For example, if someone charges that his neighbor
secretly stole from him, the Dayanim can rule on the theft itself, but they are not authorized to rule that the thief pay the Torah’s fine for theft – kefel (paying double the principle). No cases regarding fines instituted by our Sages can be heard either, such as where somebody shouts into his neighbor’s ear and frightens him, for here, too, the claimant did not suffer monetary loss. So, too, if someone takes his hand and uses it to slap someone on the cheek, thereby causing his victim embarrassment, although Sages instituted that the aggressor must
pay a fine, the case is not heard today. The same applies to any case where, according to the law, the guilty party must pay more than the loss, or he need not compensate the loss completely (e.g. cases of half-damage payments). In all of the above, the only Dayanim who can hear and decide such cases are Mumchim (experts) and Semuchim (ordained judges), when their Semicha (ordination) was in the Land of Israel (today, however, there is no Semicha). The one exception
is half damage payments in cases of Tzrororos (“pebbles” cases.). The reason is that regarding tzrororos, the payment of half the damages is not regarded as a fine, but as partial compensation for monetary loss. If someone injures his fellow, judges who were not given Semicha in the Land of Israel cannot collect from him (nezek – damage payments), (tzar – payment for the victim’s pain), (pagam – payment for “blemish” to the victim), (boshess – payment for embarrassment) or (kofer – “redemption” if the victim died). On the other hand, such judges are able to collect from him (shayvess – compensation for lost work time) and (Ripui – compensation for medical expenses resulting from the injury).
Which effectively takes these cases, as standard fare, out of the hands of Dayyanim. As most of these cases involve Torah law and today's dayyanim cannot judge those things. If you have adequate ability to read Hebrew I would suggest that you go to your local Orthodox Rabbi and ask to borrow from him Choshen Mishpat in the Tur and the Shulchan Aruch. That will the first two Simanim(chapters) in each of those with their various commentaries will give you a good background and foundation for understanding all of this indepth.
Now just because these things are more or less, by standard course, out of the hands of Dayyanim does not mean that one can immediately go to the secular authorities. That is a determination that has to be made by a B"D, as is covered in Siman 2
Any Beis Din, even one whose judges lack semicha attained in the Land of Israel, if it sees the nation wantonly sinning (and emergency measures are necessary) (Tur), it can punish with death, monetary measures or other means of punishment, even in the absence of solid evidence. If the accused is strong and violent, the court can call in non-Jews to beat him. (The courts also have the power to divest people of their property, or destroy belongings, as the judges see fit as essential temporary measures to control the
generation) (Tur in the name of the Rambam, Laws of Sanhedrin Chap. 24). All of their actions must be for the sake of Heaven. Such powers, however, rest only
with the Gadol HaDor of the generation or with the city’s finest citizens when the community appoints them over them as a court.
The issues that arise here are manifold. First a B"D has to decide if this even applies to any particular case, and if molestaion merits the intervention based on the qualifier in the Shulchan Aruch. Second the decision of the B"D cannot become standard. These are after all emergency powers in time of need. Third any given solution is open to the discretion of the individual B"D, adn thus their hashkafic leanings, as discussed above. Fourth because each case has to be judged independantly, both from the point of halacha, but also on account of utilizing such emergency powers, standarized penalties and damages could never be assesed. Finally upon what criteria does a B"D judge damage and liability? Again this becomes as much a haskafic issue as a halachic one. If a particular B"D does not believe in mental illness, then they are not going to see any grave damage done. And even if they do see that damage has been done, how do they assess a non-Torah fine that is in keeping with such precepts of the Torah as not to overly burden an individual with a fine for the sake of bringing them to teshuva(see Rosh on Perek Merubah).
Those are just a sampling of the complexities that need be dealt with that you seem to be demanding a pat answer to. While declaring others ingnorant for not being able to rattle them off for you. Yet when people try to give you answers and explain the complexities you resort to insults and degradations while only half reading the answers that they give.
Thus this is the last answer you will recieve from me on this issue. I have better things to do with my time then to respond to someone who has no desire to listen.
From this point on, where this conversation is concerned, you are on ignore.