Rabbi Eidensohn, [This is in reference to this post ]
Although I have studied at yeshiva, I do not consider myself anything close to a chocham; I do, however, feel that I am a rather good judge of character and a more than good analyst of arguments. I have also had personal experiences with conversions and rabbis who perform them. It is for this reason that I am writing to add my support to those who claim that Rabbi Chaim Zev Bomzer has been libeled and slandered in the controversy over the legitimacy of his geirus.
I have been reluctant to write on the matter of R' Tropper and R’ Eisenstein’s charges against Rabbi Bomzer, because I try my best to avoid spreading lashon hora. I admit that because of my own relative lack of talmudic education, I tend to err on the side of caution whenever I am confronted with a situation where my words may be viewed as inappropriate. But this situation demands that all information which can reveal the truth be provided to as many eyes as possible. Having been referred to the blog and having read the many statements supporting and condemning both factions, I have come to the realization that certain obvious questions are being glossed over in the indignation both sides are claiming as a result of this disagreement.
The first issue that has gone undiscussed is the matter of bringing this argument to a din torah for resolution. It is my understanding that R’ Eisenstein has declined to attend a beis din in the US on the grounds that his mentors tell him he need not leave Israel to resolve this matter. Rabbi Bomzer, on the other hand, feels that only in the US can this matter be properly and fairly adjudicated because of numerous adim and other potential expert witnesses who will not or cannot afford to make the trip to Israel. What would it take to have R' Eisenstein come to the US? Would it simply be a matter of the flight? By this letter, I offer to pay R' Eisenstein’s fare if he will agree to come to the US for the beis din.
The other issue is the legitimacy of the letter ostensibly signed by the respected and revered chochomim condemning Rabbi Bomzer and warning against acceptance of his geirus. I have learned that more than one of the signatories has since retracted his support for the contents of that letter. Some have gone so far as to claim that the letter they signed did not contain the same language as the letter which has been circulated, while others have stated that at the very least they do not remember the letter to have stated such things when they signed it, and that they now state unequivocally that they do not support what the letter claims. I am attaching to this email a copy of a statement signed by two of those signatories which I hope you will see fit to place on your blog.
It is not my intention to become involved in any "back and forth" with your other commentators. I have been a contributor to newsgroups and online debates for more than 25 years, and know too well how easily some people allow themselves to behave online in ways they would not dare were they talking to their opponents face to face. So it is my intention bli neder to make this my only statement on the subject in the hope that, by refraining from participation in any inflammatory dialogue, R' Eisenstein will take me up on my offer to assist his participation in the only forum that can settle this matter once and for all.
All the best,
Ben Israel
"It was never our intention to indicate that geresim performed by this Beis Din which are done according to the standards of halacha that are generally and universally accepted are not valid."
ReplyDeleteThis is NOT a retraction, it is a clarification.
It simply states in more precisely worded language what the first statement said.
I agree, at least mostly with Jersey girl. It seems to be as much double talk as it is clarification.
ReplyDeleteIf their conversions were valid why would one have "evaluate the status of the conversts whose gerus was performed by the Beis Din this Rov is associated with, in as much as they have a lenient approach."
Is a lenient apporach "Universally Accepted?" If so why the need to evaluate them?
This letter essentially seems to be giving a Rav the power to overturn the descision of a B"D. The person's geirus is valid there should be no reason for a Mesader Kiddushin to evaluate anything unless their are kohanic issues. For a single Rav to be able to say that one is not fit to marry another stam Jew, is essentially as far as I can see giving that individual Rav the ability to overturn a B"D. Please someone find for me where that is the halacha? No valid B"D can be upended that way.
I see only a lot of fancy two stepping while essentially saying the same thing.
Finally to simply state that people don't follow the opinion of R' Elyashiv? There are very few Rabbanim that I know of that can easily state that they don't agree with R' Elyashiv. Why not name the specific Gedolim? Why only name R' Elyashiv?
The more I examine the details the more this gets fuzzy.
"It was never our intention to indicate that geresim performed by this Beis Din which are done according to the standards of halacha that are generally and universally accepted are not valid."
ReplyDeleteVS
We therefore understand our responsibilty to notify all rabanim vedeyanim worldwide that his "conversions" are not accepted or recognized...
Either they did not read what their signed originally which makes them look bad or they signed something else and it is Tropper/roni who looks bad (which is not surprising ).
Do they realize that by mentioning the mysterious Brazilian woman they just duped into Jamie-Tropper fight and their 'she said he said' situation. ?
And if rabbi Bomzer did not convert the mysterious Brazilian woman would they still sign the letter ?
Mekubal said: "Why only name R' Elyashiv?"
ReplyDeleteI think in this case, in context of the letter, singling out R' Elyashiv is not so out of place, since he is the "biggest name" supporting the shitta that if a beis din (B"D) frequently does conversions in which the convert does not have sincere kabalas mitzvos, even sincere converts who converted through that B"D is not a Jew, since such a B"D is even worse than a B"D hediyot.
As for not mentioning rabbeim who disagree with this shitta, perhaps they didn't want to get any of their colleagues (or maybe even themselves) in trouble.
But I think it's pretty common knowledge that this shitta of R' Elyashiv is not a universally accepted one.
About 3 years ago, I heard from one of my rabbeim in Jerusalem that R' Zalman Nehemia Goldberg disagrees with this particular point. (Since this was second hand - albeit from a trusted rav - and a few years old now, I'd be interested if anyone can confirm this)
Also, and more famously, this nekuda was the crux of the issue with the controversy involving R' Druckman. What got the Dati Leumi and American MO rabbinic leadership most upset about Rabbi Sherman's ruling was this exact point: the blanket nullification of the Jewish status of all other converts who went through R' Druckman's B"D, regardless of an individual candidate's sincerity. So presumably, most of the Dati Leumi and American MO rabbinic leadership disagrees with R' Elyashiv's psak, even though they may not have come out and said, "I, R' ___, hereby declare that I disagree with R' Elyashiv".
The RCA's new geirus policy seems to (implicity, at least) disagree with R' Elyashiv's psak, since it states that the new guidelines are not meant to automatically disqualify conversions that were done in the past, even though there were clearly pervious conversions that did not meet the new standards. Less implicit was the RCA's official and vigorous protest over R' Sherman's nullification of R' Druckman's converions. http://www.rabbis.org/news/article.cfm?id=105297
R' Elyashiv is the posek for the Lithuanian wing of the haredim, the chassidic wing does not hold by him, Sephardim do not hold by him, the eida haredis does not hold by him, Modern Orthodox do not hold by him, Chabbad and Satmar do not hold by him, Conservative Jews do not hold by him , Reform Jews do not hold by him.
ReplyDeleteSo here you have it...
A number of remarks:
ReplyDelete1) The opinion mentioned in the letter attirubted to Rav ELyashiv seems to be the opinion of Rav Moshe where in a teshuva he feels that a Beis Din that peforms gerussimm without kabbalat maybe considered garua mehdyotot! (if not for a special limid zchus),
and for that mater it is the opinion of many gedoyley and posskey yisroel. In fact, can someone post the source for another godol beyisroel that rules otherwise (besides Rav uziel)?
2) Rav Sternbuch (a Possek followed by this blog and it's owner) rules that a dayan that charges exorbitant amount of money has his geruss null and void. (ONe has to be meayen if that is only for those dinim or for any other dinim. Bepashtus it would appear that he becomes automatically disqualified in a general term).
3) This letter is an eye opener to all the critics of R Tropper! Even if he sits on the fence on this issue (of a beis din who does gerut on sincere converts where the same veis din does gerus for insincere conversions) he does accept a principle goal of EJF: the need to recognize universal standards of gerut to avoid confusion over who is accepted as jewish, so that it is important to demand that there be no conversions that leaves the convert in a state of confusion and leaves klal yisroel in a state of confusion not to have goyim in it's midst.
All the above in addition to the main points already written extensively: that real fight is needed not to mix goyim into klal yisroel and those who covnert these candidates ar not doibng any favor to klal yisroel; they are only ruining them bewcause those candidates are certainly goyim! RAv soloveitchik did not even "Retrract" here to state that Jamie is jewish! She is a goya gmura if she declared (as she did) that she would not keep shabbos and she would be mechalel shabbat befarhessya! Those who bring this goyim into klal yisroel are berigning goyim into klal yisrol! This should be the foremost fight to stop these gerim completely. They are not (as erroneously and false state here) "lenient" conversions; they are GOYIM GMURIM! Instead of fighting smaller issues, fight the mixture of goyim into klal yisroel. This becomes evfen more severe when this is done for the exchangue of a 50,000$$$ essnan zonah gift and essnan zonah Building! a preversion of torah and judaism!
This letter essentially seems to be giving a Rav the power to overturn the descision of a B"D. The person's geirus is valid there should be no reason for a Mesader Kiddushin to evaluate anything unless their are kohanic issues. For a single Rav to be able to say that one is not fit to marry another stam Jew, is essentially as far as I can see giving that individual Rav the ability to overturn a B"D. Please someone find for me where that is the halacha? No valid B"D can be upended that way.
ReplyDeleteI'd love to know that too. Both of the recent controversial revocations of conversion occurred during divorce (get) proceedings. The rabbis just decided to investigate the Jewish status of the marriage partners and invalidate the B"Ds conversion. What's the difference?
In addition to the previous remarks, for the sake of clarity:
ReplyDeleteThe position of Rav Moshe Soloveitchik is: a) a messader kiddushin should NOT perform kiddushin to those converts of rabbis like rabbi bomzer, if the "status" of those converts are not in accordance to shulchan oruch! ie. if they did not commit torah and mitzvot, then THOSE fellows are not kosher gerim to allow someone to be messader kiddushin for them!
b) he claims that with regards to those who did commit to keep trorah and mtizvot, there are differences of opinions. He doe not state the names of those accept them as gerim. He list rav Elyaashiv as one who does not accept, *even* those who torah and mitzvot (performed by rabbis who convert those who do not keep torah and mitzvot).
c) He ENDORSES the idea of recognizing universal standards in a general manner to avoid confusion over who is accepted as jewish!. Ie: He endorses part of the idea of the EJF! (ie: there are those here who scoff at Tropper for claiming "my way or the highway". Upon reading this "retraction' letter Daat Torah received an endorsement that one should look for those who seek universal standards of gerus. This contradicts and overrides part of the criticism levelled at Rabbi Tropper on trhis site).
And more and more analysis is required for this letter, butr for starters these fundamentals suffices!
Rabbi Moshe Soloveitchik of Chicago and Rabbi Naphtoli Borenstien of Cleveland DENY that they support EJF's attacks against Rabbi Bomzer & RABBI BOMZER TAKES RABBI EISENSTEIN TO A DIN TORAH! EJF will not survive this internal split following on the heels of the Guma Aguiar debacle.
ReplyDeleteIt is important to understand what is really being said in the letter from "Ben Israel" and the significance of the letter of retraction signed by two rabbis. There may be more to follow but they may be afraid of reprisals from the vindictive and terroristic Tropper.
It is very clear that Rabbi Eidensohn/da'as torah has performed a great public service and that poster Roni/Tropper is now PROVEN to be an outright liar and manipulator who is now being denounced and renounced by at least two rabbonim of the rabbonim who supposedly signed on -- but now deny that they did -- to his "P. O. Box" headed anti-Bomzer diatribe, and they are not just simple rabbonim, but two who head their own Batei Din in Chicago and Cleveland.
This is a significant counter-punch by Rabbi Bomzer that he has finally had enough of Tropper's shenanigans and crass insults.
Rabbi Bomzer is also calling the bluff of Rabbi Nochum Eisenstein simply because America is not Israel so that Rabbi Eisenstein does not have the kind of automatic authority and effectiveness in America as he has in Israel.
This is part of the old still-standing dichotomy between Bavel (America) and Eretz Yisroel. Chachmei Bavel are different to Chachmei Eretz Yisroel. What works in Eretz Yisroel does not always work in Bavel.
In Israel Jews treat each other roughly. Israeli politics is rough. And rabbis bash each other around politically and hashkoficaly mercilessly in Israel, just look at the blunt way Rav Sherman knocked out Rav Drukman over conversions, but in America you can't do those kind of things and play that kind of rough game.
Poster Roni/Tropper made fun of my comments when I said that in America there is freedom of religion and freedom of speech that is far greater than in Israel, and here we see its ramifications, that Rabbi Bomzer can stand his ground while he is in America since America is still the home of half the world's Jews and it has tremendous power to assert itself in all sorts of ways.
America essentialy is the base of Modern Orthodoxy, Modern Orthodox rabbis can assert themselves in ways in America that they could never dream of doing in Israel. Thus Rabbi Bomzer can legitimately ask that Rabbi Eisenstein come to an American Bais Din because after all Rabbi Bomzer is working on home turf and Rabbi Eisenstein is inserting himself in America as the voice of Rav Eliashiv relying on someone as controversial as Rabbi Tropper to do his bidding which is a huge mistake that Rabbi Eisenstein is now going to pay for as this matter of Rabbi Bomzer taking him him to a Din Torah gets known and no doubt that Rav Eisenstein would not like to see himself get into a situation of being mesarev ledin and become a lo tzayis dino when he is himslef the head of his own Bais Din Legiur where he would expect someone summoned to his Bais Din to show up.
The "retraction" by Rabbis Soloveitchik and Borenstein tells us many things.
One is that something very dishonest happened as they claim that they never signed the kind of letter that poster Roni/Tropper sent Rabbi Eidensohn. So either they are liars or poster Roni/Tropper with Rabbi Eisenstein are liars. And not just liars but deceitful manipulators who have no morals and will forge letters and even signatures just to continue a vendetta against Rabbi Bomzer worthy of the worst mafiosos. This is also what happened in the first kol koreh that was supposedly signed by Gedolim against the Lipa Shmeltzer concert in America last year that was later proven to be fraud as many of the rabbis' signatures were forged and put on withouth their explicit assent.
What Rabbis Soloveitchik and Borenstein are saying is that they are all for raising standards in conversion, but the way to go about that is not by metaphorically bludgeoning to death a noted Talmid Chochem like Rabbi Bomzer, who is a Rosh Yeshiva at Yeshiva University, like Rabbi Sherman "killed off" Rabbi Drukman. No! Rabbi Bomzer is saying, via poster "Ben Israel" and the rabbis who are expressing their "retraction" that there are more derech eretzdikke ways of going about your rabbinical business.
When Tropper is dealing with a Modern Orthodox rov he hates, like Bomzer, he cannot do character assassination on him in full public view on the Internet, abuse him, curse him, treat him like mud, and strangle him with his bare hands as if he were in a back-alley in the Bronx, this is not the way things work in the American Jewish Orthodox world and this is not the way of Yiddishkeit, period. Any moron can see that, and only someone who is so emotionally illiterate and sociopathic like Tropper would have the chutzpa to keep on being a krummer hit man and think you are doing the Lord's work, Hashem yerachem.
YOU CANNOT ACT LIKE A THUG AND AN ASSASSIN "leshem shomayim" and back it up with krumme logic from gemoras that you hand-pick and twist to say they support you that it's (a) ok to "mekarev" millions of gentiles hitched to Jews and (b) kill off rabbis who have alenient view of Halacha and won't do it "your-way-or-the-highway-way". You must rather ALWAYS seek the ways of peace and try to work things out bedarkei sholom. This is the lesson from Aron Hakohen who even tho he was faced with the worst event in Jewish history, the building of the egel hazahav, yet Aron Hakohen still tried to calm them down and seek peace even partaking in the forbidden work himself to forestall even worse results, chas vesholom.
Rabbi Nochum Eisenstien has thus commited a few blunders so far:
One is that he got involved with Tropper in the first place.
He blundered by not taking note and joining with the BADATS's call against EJF and Tropper right away to stay away from EJF and Tropper at all costs.
The next is that he used Tropper's EJF for his own agenda in attacking the Modern Orthodox and YU rabbis at the EJF conventions and they dumped EJF and Tropper from then on. He threw down the gauntlet and now they will fight back. Modern Orthodoxy is far from dead in America.
The next blunder is that he did not cut off all ties with Tropper since he saw it was not going to work out to get America to see it only in the Israeli Haredi way.
The next blunder was that Rabbi Eisenstein was still sticking with Tropper and EJF while he did not come out publicly against the now revealed deception of Guma Aguiar and he co-shares the blame with Tropper of the failure to persuade Jamie Aguiar to convert EJF-style and not to let the rabbis at EJF concerts know that the EJF leadership, the triumvirate of Tropper/Kaplan/Aguiar was infected with dangerous double dealing and delusional hypocrites and everyone should bail out and stay away. Rabbi Eisenstein thinking he was too pure and untouchable played into the hands of the Tropper/Kaplan/Aguiar team of tricksters and now he stuck with that association unless he can publicly renounce his association with all of them and with EJF in toto.
The next blunder is that Rabbi Eisenstein joined Tropper in zeroing in on Rabbi Bomzer as a convenient excuse and kappora for all their blunders till now and getting 10 out-of-town rabbis to sign on to a letter against Bomzer that the world is now told by tow of those supposed signatories is a fraud and a lie.
That is why Rabbi Bomzer now has the moral high ground, even though he still will have a tough time convincing the Israeli Chief Rabbinate to accept his conversions, but at least he will now redeem his honor, and all the disgusting language used against him on this blog and anywhere else by poster Roni/Tropper only makes Bomzer look good because he tolerated such abuse when he was dealing with outright liars and manipulators.
Again, Rabbis Soloveitchik and Borenstein affirm here that they are not against higher standards in conversions, on the contrary, noone is, but they are against character assassination and the misuse of their names and signatures in fabricated letters that uses literal dirty tricks is not the way to go about rectifying wrongs and improving the state of Halacha.
There is more to note....
RaP:
ReplyDeleteThe "retraction" by Rabbis Soloveitchik and Borenstein tells us many things.
One is that something very dishonest happened as they claim that they never signed the kind of letter that poster Roni/Tropper sent Rabbi Eidensohn.
Specifically where do you see in their letter a retraction? Where do they say that they never signed the letter? Where do they say that the letter circulated is a fraud?
Specifically they state, Our impression when we signed that statement was that it was warning Rabbonin who are mesader Kiddushin, to evaluate the status of converts who gerus was performed by the Beis Din this Rov is associated with.
This statement signifies two things.
1) They did sign the letter. No one lied. No one forged anything. They signed the letter.
2) They do recognize a problem with the conversions or their would be no need to warn anyone of anything.
Ben Israel can make whatever statements he likes, but the letter does not say what he claims. It is a fancy two step around the issues, trying to uphold what they signed while simultaneously distancing themselves from it. Even the letter maintains that is a statement of clarification.
Roni/Tropper with Rabbi Eisenstein are liars. This statement is rather extreme. First show me where they retract or say they didn't sign that specific letter? Ben Israel makes that assertion in his preamble however I do not see it in the letter he provided signed by them.
Second, say what you will about R' Tropper, I do not care, I have no connection with the man. However, where is your proof that R' Eisenstein is a liar?
Do you know him? Have you learned Torah from him? Have you seen the way he conducts his B"D and the way he deals with all sorts of people that come to him sincerely wanting conversion, or those who sincerely thought they had converted?
I have. The Rav I know as Nochum Eisenstein is not a liar. He is an upstanding Talmid Chacham.
RAP:" Rabbi Moshe Soloveitchik of Chicago and Rabbi Naphtoli Borenstien of Cleveland DENY that they support EJF's attacks against Rabbi Bomzer &"
ReplyDeleteNot true at all! REad the letter, they partially agree with some of the atatacks and therefore a Rav that is mesader kiddiushin should check on the status of that gerus, for if he is insincefre he CANNOT PERFORM THAT KIDDUSHIN!
RAP:" RABBI BOMZER TAKES RABBI EISENSTEIN TO A DIN TORAH! EJF will not survive this internal split following on the heels of the Guma Aguiar debacle".
IT is too late for Bomzer! He did not follow the rules of torah; he is gerut is not accepted in rabbanut harashit and by frum ehrliche people whether from Rca or Haredi! And EJF will survive whether or not RAbbi Eisenstein goes to a Din Torah or he takes Bomzer nad his anablers to a din torah! Your dooms prophecies have not come to fruition in the past and they will not come in the present!
RAP:"is important to understand what is really being said in the letter from "Ben Israel"",
Roni: a letter by someone anonymous that could have been written by bomzer or by RAp or anyone who is afraid to disclose his identity!
RAP:" and the significance of the letter of retraction signed by two rabbis. There may be more to follow but they may be afraid of reprisals from the vindictive and terroristic Tropper".
The "Retraction" does not make bomzer too good anyway, ibn addition that the retraction itself questions the logic of the retraction!
"It is very clear that Rabbi Eidensohn/da'as torah has performed a great public service and that poster Roni/Tropper is now PROVEN to be an outright liar and manipulator"
ROni: The only LIAR is you rap!
who has krume twisted logic and holds the opposides of a knife! who is empassioned with an irrational hatred for tropper and at the end of the dahy it vindicates that bomzer performs covnersion to people whgo are insincere about mitszvot! (not what you and tyour cohorts and enablers claim that he makes conversions for those who are do not dress with the tropper';s sense of tzinut) ! and in fact their 'REtraction" vindicates again Tropper and and indicts bomzer!
RAP:" who is now being denounced and renounced by at least two rabbonim of the rabbonim who supposedly signed on -- but now deny that they did -- to his "
THey did not: a) renounce completely the affirmation that bomzer converts insiincere gerim; they affirm it, 2) they syupport in this letter the idea of tropper and it's organization "univerrsal standards for gerut", 3)they statd that one rav should not be messader kiddushin for an insincere convert of bomzer!
PAnd the rest of chashuve rabbonim left heir clear condemnation as before!
RAP:"abbi Bomzer is also calling the bluff of Rabbi Nochum Eisenstein simply because America is not Israel so that Rabbi Eisenstein does not have the kind of automatic authority and effectiveness in America as he has in Israel".
ROni: The torah and shulchan oruch is not secluded to Israel! Gwerus without kabbalat hamitzvot does not work in amrica as it does not work in eretz yisroel! Andother hand, by your logic: Rav Sternbuch has no right to tell tropper what to do in america for his authority in israel does not extend to america.
RAP:"This is part of the old still-standing dichotomy between Bavel (America) and Eretz Yisroel. Chachmei Bavel are different to Chachmei Eretz Yisroel. What works in Eretz Yisroel does not always work in Bavel".
Roni: Not in clear cut halacha!
Rap:"In Israel Jews treat each other roughly. Israeli politics is rough. And rabbis bash each other around politically and hashkoficaly mercilessly in Israel, "
IN halachik charges one has to respond in halachik language! The charges of ehrliche rabbonim (including the rabbis who "Retrracted") are *halachik charges that exist in israel and america!
rap:"just look at the blunt way Rav Sherman knocked out Rav Drukman over conversions, but in America you can't do those kind of things and play that kind of rough game."
roni: NOt true at all! This is exactly what rabbis in from america joined hands with rav eisenstein and consdmened the fake gerus by bomzer!
RAP:"Poster Roni/Tropper made fun of my comments when I said that in America there is freedom of religion and freedom of speech that is far greater than in Israel, and here we see its ramifications,"
ROni: and i still make fun that you talk like arefomer! when you defend bomzer and you attempt to wear a shtrieml when you attack tropper!
RAP:" that Rabbi Bomzer can stand his ground while he is in America since America is still the home of half the world's Jews and it has tremendous power to assert itself in all sorts of ways".
Not at all! becuase the torah exists all over, and halacha cuts boundaries! and rabbis from america who signed and haven't retracted prove it! and so does the "retraction" by these twor abbis!
RAP:"
The "retraction" by Rabbis Soloveitchik and Borenstein tells us many things.
RAP:"One is that something very dishonest happened as they claim that they never signed the kind of letter that poster Roni/Tropper sent Rabbi Eidensohn."
ROni: THIS IS THE DISHONEST CLAIM OF THE SLEAZY AND DISHONEST RAP! They all signed and they knew what they signed on. "ben israel" or "Rap" can claim what they want but they signed on this letter!
The biggestliar and minipulator is bomzer/rap who uses the Jamie aguiar story where he raked $$$nan zonah money for himself and building and uses this story to attack tropper!
He is the biggwest dishonest liar and manipulator!
RAP:"What Rabbis Soloveitchik and Borenstein are saying is that they are all for raising standards in conversion,":
Roni:And therefore one should not be messader kiddushin for an insincere covnert made by bomzer!
and therefore one should support ejf who does universal standards of gerut!
RAP:" like Rabbi Sherman "killed off" Rabbi Drukman.
ROni: Mechutzaf rap is badmouthing a Dayan who rules according to halacha and not accorrding to his reformed $$$ shulchan aruch!
raP:"No! Rabbi Bomzer is saying, via poster "Ben Israel"":
roni:VIa himself! and RAP!
raP:"and the rabbis who are expressing their "retraction" that there are more derech eretzdikke ways of going about your rabbinical business."
Roni: actually that one cannot be messader kiddushin for an insincere gerus made by bomzer!
rap:"When Tropper is dealing with a Modern Orthodox rov he hates, like Bomzer, he cannot do character assassination on him in full public view on the Internet, abuse him, curse him, treat him like mud, "
ROni: probably RAP meant that Rap cannot curse, strngle tropper on the internet as this tropper bhater makes in full view etc.
At the end of the day: RAP, your krumme ferdreyte svoros to atack tropper and at the same time defend bozmzer, that it is ok to accept HUUNDREDS OR THOUSANDS OF GOYIM GEMURIM INTO KLAL YISROEL AND CREATE MORE ASSIMILATION BY FAKE BOMZER, AND AT THE SAME ATTACK AN APPORACH THAT WILL ULTIMATELY ONLY CONERT THOSE WHO ARE SIONCERE (LIKE BOMZER COVNERTED JAMIE AND TROPPER DID NOT)
aND Rabbi Nochum Eisenstien has thus FAR ACTED WITH THE GREEST COURAGE TO TAKE DOWN A MAN WHO BROUGHT HUNDREDS AND THOUSANDS OF GOYIM INTO KLAL YISROEL AND WAS MEKAYEM LOH TAGURU MIPNEY ISH TO DENOUNCE THE PERSON WHO IS REPONSIBLWE FOR THE PROLIFERATION OF GOYIM INTO KLAL YISROEL EVEN IF THERE ARE LIARS ANDMANIPULATORS WHO ATTEMPT TO CHANGE THE REAL PICTURE.
It is hard to believe what r’ Tropper (Roni) is saying about Jamie Guma. That she bluntly refused to keep mitzvos. Nobody does it (say it) and even if they do not plan to keep all the mitzvos they just would lie. She has no benefit to say that she would not keep mitzvos.
ReplyDeleteIt is like answering the policeman which stopped you and asked “are you going to speed again ?” “yes, I am going to speed again”. Even if the person plans to speed again he would not say so.
I think there is more to it to why Jamie left r’ Tropper, maybe r’ Tropper is too controlling, maybe she is afraid that if one day in the future she will forget to wear her shaitel or decided to get advance degree r’ Tropper will get upset at her and will revoke her converion as he likes to do to people who try to break free from him. Or maybe they just realized that he is unstable.
We just do not know the complete story and should not take r’ tropper (Roni) words as the absolute truth.
One more thing, I am not sure why r’ Tropper needs to go on this blog and to use nibbul pe and repeating . “Esnan zona” like a mantra.
Even when he says that he does not mean 'zona' and money changed for sexual services literally it just not appropriate for a rabbi to talk that way.
""It is hard to believe what r’ Tropper (Roni) is saying about Jamie Guma. That she bluntly refused to keep mitzvos. Nobody does it (say it) and even if they do not plan to keep all the mitzvos they just would lie. She has no benefit to say that she would not keep mitzvos
ReplyDeleteIn fact, by kosher dayanim it is hard to lie! Because a kosher dayan [...] would know that the candidate has driven a car on the Sabbath for the past months and weeks prior to conversion, so how can she be stating the truth that "she would keep the shabbat"' so she is compelled to tell the truth that she was not keeping the shabbat and she will not keep the shabbat! How can she in a staright face say that she would keep the shabbat if she did not train for that transformational change for the past time to get her acquanited and used to alifestryle that is restricting so that at the time when she becomes a real jew, she would do what she is supposed to do....
You are concerned about her ability not to wear sheitel...how demaning it is for a datyan to request from a convert to cover her hair...That is how it works with fake rabbanim and dayanim; with good dayanim it works in a way that they train and teach the candidate the urgency and beauty of modesty and thee laws of torah and if by chance the candidate has fooled and lied to the rabbi about her plans the rabbi is entitled to deny her conversion because she was not sincere from day one....
About e$$$nan zonah: we will call a spade a spade (you guys keep on defaming tropper with the sheitels and other disgracefull demaning things on the person whre there is no toeless to make a point; whereas i'll make the point becuase it is the utmost of chillul hashem:) to seell judaism for money and to build yiddishkeyt and beys elokim basewd on money which brings a goy into a jewish home and marriage. Shame on all involved to bring a goya to a jewish family and even more chameful when they do it for money and nd even more shameful when the money goes to the rabbi and to sell out judaism for the rabbis building! it is a treyfe building!
Your query and statement only makes sense by a fake dayan [...] who has so many converts that he converts knowing that the candidate is not *shayach* (not in the radar) for keeping the shabbat and yet he inteucts her and trains her to say "i'll keep the shabbat".
RaP:
ReplyDeleteThe "retraction" by Rabbis Soloveitchik and Borenstein tells us many things.
One is that something very dishonest happened as they claim that they never signed the kind of letter that poster Roni/Tropper sent Rabbi Eidensohn.
Mekubal:"Specifically where do you see in their letter a retraction? Where do they say that they never signed the letter? Where do they say that the letter circulated is a fraud?
Specifically they state, Our impression when we signed that statement was that it was warning Rabbonin who are mesader Kiddushin, to evaluate the status of converts who gerus was performed by the Beis Din this Rov is associated with.
This statement signifies two things.
1) They did sign the letter. No one lied. No one forged anything. They signed the letter.
2) They do recognize a problem with the conversions or their would be no need to warn anyone of anything".
Roni: Your last point needs to be emphasized over and over but runs much deeper:
THey agreed that they signed the letter to warn rabis NOT to be mesader kiddushin to Bonzer's gerim who are not sincere and did not have a sincere kabbbalat hamitzvot! Itis an affirmatrion on theirpart that Bomzer makes many conversions that do not contain sincere kabbalat hamtizvot and therefore a Rav may NOT be messader their kiddushin! (and likewise probably, when a Rav encounters a situation of a brit milah of such a child, he must attempt to make it clear that he is not giving a stamp of apporval that this child is jewish when according to halacha this child may NOT be jewish!). They actually clarified what was on their mind, and even if they disagree to the extent of the letter (that carries what in their opinion is an issue that is subject to discussion- but that for later) nevertheless they agree that there is a huge problem and need to warn rabbis not to be messader kiddushin for gerim that did not have a sincere kabbalat hamitzvot! including from R. Bozmer which aAFFIRMS what Rav Eisenstein and the othger signatories wrote that R. Bozmer makes many conversions without sincere kabbalat hamitzvot and therefore those covnersions are NULL AND VOID!
Mekubal:"Ben Israel can make whatever statements he likes, but the letter does not say what he claims. It is a fancy two step around the issues, trying to uphold what they signed while simultaneously distancing themselves from it. Even the letter maintains that is a statement of clarification.
Roni/Tropper with Rabbi Eisenstein are liars. This statement is rather extreme. First show me where they retract or say they didn't sign that specific letter? Ben Israel makes that assertion in his preamble however I do not see it in the letter he provided signed by them.
Second, say what you will about R' Tropper, I do not care, I have no connection with the man. However, where is your proof that R' Eisenstein is a liar?
Do you know him? Have you learned Torah from him? Have you seen the way he conducts his B"D and the way he deals with all sorts of people that come to him sincerely wanting conversion, or those who sincerely thought they had converted?
I have. The Rav I know as Nochum Eisenstein is not a liar. He is an upstanding Talmid Chacham".
Roni: UES INDEED! He is an upstanding Talmid Chacham and cares to uphold the laws of torah to follow shulchan aruch and devotes his life so that hilchos gerut and yuchassin and kedushat yisrael should be upheld to highest level and that crooks and sleazies should not take a ride and sell klal yisroel down the river.
With regards to Ben Israel call to pay him to come to a Din Torah: Are you (ben ISrael) serious? Are you aware that Rav Eisenstein called Bomzer FIRST TO A DIN TORAH BY RABBI RALBAG AND BOMZER DID NOT SHOW UP??? Now that Bomzer saw that he means business he calls him to a Din Torah? Too late! Now, holchin Achar Hanitva", bomzer did not want the din toragh in the past and did bnot show up; now Rav Eisenstein is entitled to have bomzer show up in the Nitva's place! That is the Halacha! You can offer Bomzer a ticket to go Eretz Yisrael instead!
With regards to the general discussion and the letter by Rav Soloveitchik and the positions of the comentators of this blog:
ReplyDeleteThe bone of contention in this new letter (which as explained by many is NOT a retraction but an explanation) is: that according to Rav SOloveitchik and Rav Burstein there is a disagreement between poskim if a Beis Din who usually makes many non kosher conversions (like they convert people who are insincere in their kabbalat hamitzvot) can have the other candidates who underwent a kosher kbbalat hamitzvot render as a kosher conversion: These Rabbis claim that although Rav Elyashiv claims that the gerut is passul (because that dayan cannot serve as a beis din) and there are "those who don't accept this opinion".
Let me respectfully ask the Rabbis: Who are those who disagree with Rav ELyashiv? IS their ruling recorded in Sefer Shaalot Utshuvot?
In fact: I'll present two great other posskim who hold otherwise:
Rav Moshe שו"ת אגרות משה יורה דעה חלק א סימן קס
. וגם צריך שתהיה קבלת המצות בפני ג' ומעכב אפילו בדיעבד כדאיתא בש"ך /יו"ד/ סי' רס"ח סק"ט. ולכן בעצם יש לפקפק על הגרות שיש רבנים שמקבלין הא אנן סהדי ברובן שאין מקבלות המצות כדהוכיח סופן וגם שלא תהא עדיפא מבעלה היהודי שנתגיירה בשבילו שהיא רואה שגם הוא מחלל שבת ומופקר להרבה איסורין. אך עכ"ז יש מקום לומר שהוא גרות בדיעבד מאחר שאמרה לפני הבית דין שמקבלת מצות התורה ואירע גם כזו שמקבלת באמת לכן אולי דנין אף באלו שאין שומרת אח"כ דיני התורה שברור לנו שאף בעת הגרות לא קבלה בלבה, רק כדברים שבלב. אף שלדידי לא מסתבר שבשביל איזו יחידות לסלק האנן סהדי ולהחשיב לדברים שבלב אבל אולי זהו טעמייהו ויש עכ"פ מקום לזה.
ועוד יש מקום לומר טעם גדול דמה שבעלה שנתגיירה בשבילו הוא מחלל שבת ומופקר בכמה איסורין עושה שהיא סבורה שאין חיוב כ"כ לשמור המצות וא"כ הוא כגר שנתגייר בין העכו"ם שמפורש בשבת דף ס"ח שהוי גר אף שעדין עובד ע"ז עיי"ש והטעם משום שקבל עליו להיות ככל היהודים שנחשבה קבלה אף שלא ידע כלום מהמצות דידיעת המצות אינה מעכבת הגרות ורק בידע ולא רצה לקבל הוא עכוב בגרות דהא א"צ ללמד כל התורה כולה קודם שנתגייר דרק מקצת מודיעין. ולכן אף שהב"ד אמרו לה שצריך לשמור שבת חושבת שהוא רק הדור בעלמא אבל גם מי שאינו שומר השבת וכדומה טועה לומר שהוא יהודי כשר נמצא שלטעותה קבלה כל המצות שיהודי מחוייב שהוא גרות אף שמחמת זה לא תקיים עכ"פ המצות וזהו טעם שיש בה ממש להחשיבה לגיורת והוא למוד זכות קצת על הרבנים המקבלים שלא יחשבו עוד גריעי מהדיוטות. "
Rav Moshe is concerned that the rabbis who accept insincere converts (on the level of "ana sahadi") are "grua mehedyotot" are not on the level required for one to be eligible to serve as a beis din. (Although he offers a "limud zchus" to some; the limud zchus may not be relevant to all cases and if a rabbi would really instruct her that she look up to the other kosher converts and to other observant jews then the may not this limud zchut for accepting her as a covnert!).
Another Coshuver Rov, one that is so often cited on this blog! HaRav Sternbuch. I had a chance to take a glimpse at chlek 4 t. 230 (I do not own it but I saw it today with my eyes), where he states like RAv ELyashiv! that a covnert, covnerted by dayanim who often make non kosher conversions (iwthout kabbalatr hamitzvot) are in his opinion not jewish "meikar hadin"! and he rules that they should reconvert! And while in very extenuating circumnstances he finds a few kulos (he is talking about a chattan who cannot find 3 dayanim for the same day!) he still contends that in general meikar hadin the gerut is NOTR CHAL! and needs to reconvert meikar hadin!
SO, who are those whose ruling are different and it is recorded in "torah shebiktav"?
Let me also respectfully ask the two Rabbis: Being that the begin the letter that the Rabbi is a "distinguished Rov in Brooklyn, Zt"l' as well as HaGaon RAv Moshe Feinstein ZT"L": If this is so, I cannot but sit and wonder, how can a distinguished Rov, a Talmid of two illustrious Rabbonim, conduct himself in a view that is opposite to his actions? How can he perform gerussen that are ruled out by Rav Moshe Feinstein? IF he would be a talmid of someone who had ruled otherwise (and you would prove that he ruled otherwise) I would not have the same taanot; but being that he is talmid of Rav Moshe who held in his personal opinion (As mentuioned in this ruling) that when there is clear and unabigous assumptuion that the candidate will not keep torah and mtizvot and is not sincere then this "Convert" will not be a "convert", how canhis Talmid act against the opinion of his Rebbe? Likewise with the Rov: The Rov always was extremely stringent regarding conversions, even for ketanim (where Rav Moshe was more lenient). He almost never pewrformed agerut for this very reason (As related NUMEROUS TIMES BY RAV HERSHEL SHECHTER!). How come a talmid of the rov conduicts himself to the opposite of his Rebbe's opinion?
when you state in the begining of the letter about the RB's teachers, makes the question and idignation on him even stronger?!?
LEt me also sterngthen the indignation: Rabbi Bomzer himself, has at least in the past, (when I assume that in those times he tried to perform only kosher gerus, to be melamed zchut on him), WARNED A CONVERT THAT SHE SHOULD KEEP TORAH AND MITZVOT. We have in our possession, how RAv BOmzer in at least in year 5756 wrote to a convert :".However, our experience has made it imperative, epscially when the covnert lives far from New York, that Torah observance should be evident in the local home community. WE, therefore, urge you' to live your life and be a source ofpride to your community and to the jewish people. We should IY"H contact the Torah authorities in your home to ascertain your religous lifestyle during thecoming year. Please be advised that in accordance with Rabbi Moshe FEinstein Zt"L a convert who did not accept the commandments is not considered a convert at all, even POST FACO (bedi-avad) (YOreh Deah 1:157; 3.106; Even haezer 1:27' 4:16). The burden of proof is upon yuo to demnstrate loyalty to Torah and Halachah to avoid possible annulment of your conversion":
This is the exact language RAv Bomzer would write at the year 5756 and at that time the candidate would be shaken and take it seriously. It means that acted in a manner similar to Rav Tropper's actions TODAY!; that he acknowledged Rav Moshe's position. So, the previous question get's bigger and your initial words are not an exonaration for the Rabbi but an indictment! Being that he acknowleges that his Rabbi would not permit such conversions; would ANNULL THEM BEDI-AVAD!; would warn the candidates sternly; would place the burden on their shoulder, what justification does he have that after that period, he chose abandon the rulings of his Rebbe and to bring goyim into klal yisroel (when his Rebbe's held that they are goyim)??
REspecfully yours,
hanchakeh yitamu chataim veloh chotim!
Roni
We need also reaffirm another point made by the Rabis (Soloveitchik and Burstein), that even if there differences of opinion (something the I respectfully contend on this detail); that nevertheless the proper approach for the recruitment of gerim into klal yisroel be one that makes "confusion over who is accepted as jewish limited", to the extent that they signed on that letter which may have led to misunderstanding. In this letter they affirm that even if one holds that Bomzer's Gerut is good bediavad (something that they affirm is a bone of contention between their opinion and Rav Elyashiv -we wrote another piece on this to respecfully question who are those who argue with Rav Elyashiv); nevertheless recently there has been an attempt to adopt standards that had unversal acceptance. thhey affirm that this trend exists in Erets Yisrael as well as in the United States. In both these areas there is a push to adopt these changes.
ReplyDeleteThier letter runs 180 degree counter the criticism leveld at this forum that R. Troper attempts to push his way or the highway...They actaully affirm and ask that the trend should continue and gerussen "Should only" be performed if they meet the genralized universal acceptable standards in order not to have confusion regarding the status of the ger or gioress or their children! This means that they affirm in the letter (in addition to acknowledgment that RB may perform conversions that does not meet the standards, as discussed at length earlier) that the time has come to adopt the approach taken by the EJF where they convert accordingf to universally accepted standards!
LEt us hope that from now on all involved adopt these calls by these two Rabbis and work together to make gerus be a noble and holy enterprise that brings Gerey Tzedek into Am haKodesh and does not mix the wall of "Ben Yisrael Laamim"!
Roni
Making a ger/geyoret is no different than rearing a child. Train a child up according to his way and he will not depart from it.
ReplyDeleteIt is impossible for our Ravs/Dayyanom or communities to make the number of gerim that our Ravs/Dayyanim and communities have been attempting to bring into the Jewish people merely to increase the numbers of Jews and reverse the trends of intermarriage.
The result is that our communities are suffering.
Our children are off the derech, our Baal Habatim are perverse and infected with the blights of the non Jewish world, our tzedakas are bankrupt, our yeshivas can't educate our children and our entire Jewish world is crumbling and in a shambles.
A closer look at "A statement of clarification" from Rabbi Moshe Soloveitchik of Chicago and Rasbbi Naphtoli Aryeh Burstein of Cleveland.
ReplyDeleteWhile poster Roni/Tropper goes into overdrive and shows signs of panic as he works feverishly to do damage control and act as the supreme spinmeister to explain away the humiliation of having, for a start, TWO rabbis who signed the original anti-Bomzer "P. O. Box" letter "clarify" themselves in such a way that it appears that they DID NOT sign the type of letter that poster Roni/Tropper fraudulently manipulated and sent to Rabbi Eidensohn/da'as torah to post on this blog.
If one compares the original "Hoda'ah Ve'azhara P. O. Box letter with the recent "A statement of clarification" it is clear that Rabbis Moshe Soloveitchik and Naphtoli Aryeh Burstein signed and had something ENTIRELY DIFFERENT in mind, and added to the allegations by "Ben Israel" that others of the 10 rabbis deny even signing at all, then the only conclusion must be that until each and every rabbi can be contacted and give a verifiable WRITTEN clarification, as did Rabbis Soloveitchik and Burstein, that except for Rabbis Tropper and Eisenstein, none of the remaining six signatorees can be trusted to say as they appear to sign on the letter.
Before going any further with debates back and forth, it would be best to take a look at each and every line and sentence of the "A statement of clarfication" by Rabbis Soloveitchik and Burstein, and not just selective lines as poster Roni/Tropper is doing to twist everything his way and make the world into one monochrome us vs them black-and-white Tropper-type my-way-or-the-highway decree.
This analysis requires first and foremost the ability to read English and a solid grounding in Judaism. You don't have to be a posek to read and understand this letter as poster Roni/Tropper in his intimidating way tries to impose it on everyone. If you want to see a posek go see one and hear what he has to say, this is a blog where matters are disscussed in a more open and freer way, based on freedom of speech and Roni/Tropper can threaten "din torahs" as much as he wants, it's a joke and he's bullying as usual, since on a blog each person is invited to participate and contribute their views in a mentsclichdikke way and not be screamed at and insulted by poster Roni/Tropper.
My comments start with "RaP":
"A stateement of clarification"
RaP: The mere fact that poster "Ben Israel" was the one to provide this document, and that poster Roni/Tropper never mentioned it and kept it hidden, proves the bona fides of poster "Ben Israel" and the mere fact that Rabbis Soloveitchik and Burstein went to the great lengths of writing up a letter that would "clarify" an earlier seemingly absolute "Hod'ah Ve'azhara" means that something went horribly wrong.
Normal rabbis (not Tropper) are by nature polite and considerate people. They refrain from crude bluntness and degradingly humiliating people. The fact that honorable rabbis such as these are forced to go to the lengths of a "clarification" means that they were somehow or other (they are too polite to tell us) used and manipulated by Tropper and that they may have been tricked to sign a piece of paper that is now proven to be full of gaping faults to the point that they wish that (a) they never signed it in the first place for all the furor it would cause, or (b) they never signed such a letter in the first place but now that their names are on it they do not wish to embarrass the ones who concocted it, such as Rabbis Tropper and Eisenstein. It makes it very hard to trust anything that comes out of the house of Tropper's dirty tricks.
"A statement was recently issued"
RaP: How "recent" is "recently"? The anti-Bomzer P. O. Box letter is dated 21 Elul 5768, that's the 21st of September 2008. So the question how long was it and what happened in the five months between then and February 18, 2009 when Ben Israel sent this letter over via Email to Rabbi Eidensohn and it got posted on this blog?
Why didn't poster Roni/Tropper also send it to Rabbi Eidensohn if he knew that it existed?
Why did he cover it up if he knew about its existence?
Sure, now that it's posted he squirms and flails like a trapped shark trying to spin it his way, but that is not what is going on because Rabbis Soloveitchik and Burstein are coming up with ANOTHER VERSION of what they signed and meant altogether. They are also coming across as more subtle and nuanced and fair, all things that Rabbis Tropper and Eisenstein are inherently incapable of.
"regarding the Gerus performed by a distinguished rov in Brooklyn, who was a talmid of the Rov ZT"L, as well as HaGaon Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT"L."
RaP: Note right off the bat how respectful they are and how their tone in this brief letter is different to the brutal and accustory language used in the anti-Bomzer P. O. Box letter.
True talmidei chachomim treat each other with kavod and derech eretz and do not yell at each other when they disagree as if the other party was the scum of the Earth. Only Tropper's mind and personality work that way and Rabbi Eisenstein seems to find that congenial company. Pity.
Note also how Rabbis Soloveitchik and Burstein right away speak of "the Gerus performed by a distinguished rov" meaning that it is Gerus, and not as the P. O. Box letter talks dirtily not using the word Gerus, but reffering to it by using parenthesis and italics to "conversions" a few times showing that Tropper and Rabbi Eisenstein in their letter arrived on the scene with all guns blazing but instead here, Rabbis Soloveitchik and Burstein are recognizing that there is a distinguished rov (and not the rogue that the P. O. Box paints) who has done actual Gerus. They take note too that he is a long-time talmid of Rav J.B. Soloveitchik and also of Rav Moshe Feinstein and that he is not a nobody.
Poster Roni/Tropper tries to twist this now, but at no time does the anti-Bomzer letter nor poster Roni/Tropper indicate that Rabbi Bomzer should be treated with the dignity and respect befitting a Torah scholar and not treated like a convicted "criminal" a term that poster Roni/Tropper had used quite a lot.
"Our impression when we signed that statement was, that it was warning Rabbonim who are mesader kiddushin, to evaluate the status of the converts whose gerus was performed by the Bais Din that this rov is associated with, in as much as they have a lenient approach."
RaP: They are saying that they had no intent on signing on to a letter that was just a tool to do character assassination on Rabbi Bomzer. As far as they are concerned the letter they had signed on had ONLY ONE PURPOSE to warn rabbis to be careful when being mesader kiddshin to check each converted person from Bomzer's Bais Din and make sure that they were indeed kosher converts. But if you look at the original anti-Bomzer letter, the subject of kiddushin is included in three last lines but the bulk of the letter recounts and focuses on how terrible Rabbi Bomzer is and clearly makes the sweeping arbitrarily definitive statement that "His 'conversions' are not accepted by any reputable bais din worldwide, including the Raqbbanaut Harashit LeYisrael" while Rabbis Soloveitchik and Burstein DO NOT make this sweeping
allegation against Rabbi Bomzer noting objectively and non-judgmentally that "they [Bomzer and his Bais Din] have a lenient approach" and that there is in Halacha a lenient approach that while some may not like it, it is to be found as even poster Roni/Tropper admits from time to time in the name of "Rav Uziel" but as even this letter from Rabbi Soloveitchik and Burstein goes on to admit was widely practiced until relatively recently in the very lands and presence of great poskim in America and Isral.
The only reason the fight has come to a head now is because of the consequences 30 years later of Reform's acceptance of patrilineal descent and the arrival of hundreds of thousands of the Russian non-Halachik Jews in Israel over the past 30 years.
So Rabbis Soloveitchik and Burstein are saying that they never intended to sign on to a letter that would read like a "cherem" or destruction machine of a distinguished rov the way that Tropper and Rav Eisenstein have primed and aimed it.
"It was never our intention to indicate that gerusin preformed [sic] by this Bais Din which are done according to the standards of Halachas that are generally & universally accepted are not valid."
RaP: This is important because it clarifies the worry that many people had that what about all of Rabbi Bomzer's conversions over the years where many of the people have lived upstanding Torah lives and are known as righteous converts. Also meaning that the sweeping statement in the anti-Bomzer letter is false and a lie when it states that "His 'conversions' are not accepted by any reputable bais din worldwide, including the Raqbbanaut Harashit LeYisrael" because the Batei Din of both Rabbi Soloveitchik in Chicago and Rabbi Burstein in Cleveland WOULD accept and validate converts from Rabbi Bomzer's Bais Din provided the converts would meet the so-called universal standards they subcribe to and that Rabbi Bomzer's converts are NOT automatically blacklisted by them the way that the letter from Tropper and Rabbi Eisenstein would make it appear.
"It is our feeling that irregardless of ones own (lenient) opinion one should only perform gerusin that meet the generalized universal acceptable standards in order not to have confusion regarding the status of the ger or the gioras, or their children."
RaP: Rabbis Soloveitchik and Burstein prove yet again that they are capable of looking at all sides of the coin and do not wish to come along and look like force-feeders threatening everyone to do it "my-way-or-the-highway" like Tropper's mania in conversion.
For the second time in this brief "clarification" they explicitly take note of and mention a more LENIENT approach in gerus, and while they do not subscribe to it, they do recognize that it is a derech in Halacha that is and has been followed by other rabbonim and dayonim, and instead of insulting Rabbi Bomzer and make him feel like garbage, they are KIND ENOUGH (Tropper and Rabbi Eisenstein seem to have forgotten that kindness is also a key part of Yiddishkeit -- Tropper is only "kind" to gentiles hitched to Jews who he wants to proselytize to) to indicate to someone like Rabbi Bomzer that even though you may have your "own lenient opinion" as they validate that they also indicate that one should strive for higher standards.
"Until recently there was no attempt to adopt standards that had universal acceptance and as such every rov acted in accordance with his own opinion."
RaP: Indeed, and those were different days when every rov was faced with a different social reality. Mass intermarriage in America and the fall of the Iron Curtain happened relatively recently and until about 30 years ago every Orthodox rov could be basically trusted when it came to conversions. Not so today.
In any case with the growth of Haredi and Hasidic kehilas, the vast growth of the Yeshiva world, the Shas movement of Sefardim in Israel and serious Religious Zionists a de facto assertion of the primacy of Halacha in Jewish life in Israel and partially in America has taken place. But the religious and cultural wars and infighting among religious Jews and the outside world is far from over, especially over the "who is a Jew" question, and Rabbis Soloveitchik and Burstein indicate below that they hope that by adopting higher standards "Machlkokes" will subside. But that is a truly idealistic view for now in a world of varying standards.
While it may be fun like a turkey shoot to take pot shots and clip the wings of Orthodox rabbis like Rav Drukman and Rabbi Bomzer, it does not get to the root of the problem because the vast majority will NEVER accept being forced to accept one standard at this time. MORE PERSUASSION will work, and not threatening people and forcing them into one way like cattle forced into a pen.
"However in recent years the trend in both Eretz Yisroel and in the United States has been to adopt these types of standards."
RaP: True, and it's not a bad thing at all. Too bad that Tropper has taken it on himself to be busy with this job. Given his failures by hiding what had happened with Guma Aguiar and now that it's revealed that he concocts letters to suit himself in his vendettas against rabbis like Bomzer, such a vindictive and one-dimensional person should not be entrusted or allied with by Rabbi Eisnstein to bring about such a noble aim. Added to which, Tropper and Kaplan have not renounced their plans to proselytize to masses of gentiles hitched to Jews that is not approved by Rabbi Eisenstein or anyone in any way.
"The vagueness of the letter"
RaP: It was not vague, it was a letter that attacked and wanted to destroy Rabbi Bomzer once and for all and since Rabbis Soloveitchik and Burstein have already stated in this clarification, that they thought they were only signing on to a letter that was going to warn other rabbis "to evaluate the status of the converts" for marrige purposes and not as a generalized attack and destruction of Rabbi Bomzer himself, so that one can conclude that they signed on to an entirely different letter and the one produced by poster Roni/Tropper is a shameful fake and a fraud.
"thet was signed (and which perhaps led to a misunderstanding)
RaP: There are evidently ten signatures on the anti-Bomzer letter. Two belong two others now, Rabbi Moshe Soloveitchik of Chicago and Rabbi Naphtoli Aryeh Burstein of Cleveland are now issuing "A statement of clarification" and modifying their opinions and clearly apologetically they are saying that they have been misunderstood and misquoted and that the anti-Bomzer letter does not speak for them as it appears over there.
Which leaves the other six whom we await for clarificationm of what they mean and say and if they said it at all because the one who has sent in this letter informs us that they do not even recall signing such a letter so that one can only conclude the anti-Bomzer letter is fraudulent or was devised by dishonest means, recalling the way Lipa Shmelter's concert last year was cancelled but it was proven that people had forged and fraudulently gotten the signatures of important rabbis. No doubt we shall yet hear from the other six rabbis.
"was probably due to the fact the letter was written in a manner to accomodate both those who accept the opinion of Hagaon HaRav Yosef Sholom Elyashiv Shlita, that a Bais Din that does conversions which often does not have real sincere kabalas mitzvos can not serve as a Bais Din for gerus, even where there is sincere acceptance of mitzvos, as well as those who don't accept this opinion"
RaP: This is probably the most significant sentence in this clarification and it actually is breaking new ground and is in no way in sync with what the anti Bomzer letter was about. Firstly, the anti-Bomzer letter is written on the banner heading of only one side only that of Rav Eisenstein's "Va'ad Harabanim HaOlami LeInyanei Giur" and its head is Rav Eisenstein who works under the general guidance of Rav Eliashiv and from the first line till its last the entire thrust of the letter is to destroy Rabbi Bomzer as if he were vermin and a sub-human, surely not the way of normal rabbis, but fitting more into the "us vs them, they are all criminals" mode of Rabbi Tropper. It is a letter that describes ultimatums issued, sins commited and verdicts passed by only ONE "bais din" that of Tropper and Rabbi Eisenstein. While the words from Rabbis Soloveitchik and Burstein quoted above describe two valid and normal possible scenarios: A Bais Din for conversions that is strict with converts to have "real sincere kabalas mitzvos" and a Bais Din that expects of converts "sincere acceptnace of mitzvos" so that there is on the one hand the factor of "real sincere kabalas mitzvos" versus just plain "sincere acceptance of mitzvos" -- and note the difference in the language between the Hebrew words "kabalas mitzvos" (meaning a universally accepted conversion) which they obviously do not equate with the more watered down Eglish words in "accpetance of mitzvos" (meaning a conversion based on leniency) and the latter more lenient conversions are indeed a reality because as they admit there are "those who don't accept this [Rav Eliashiv's] opinion" and at this time, following the ruling of the Israeli Rabbinate's Rav Sherman who follows Rav Eliashiv one cannot say that the Israeli Rabbinate is following the more lenient approach because right now it's not (it may change if the Modern Orthodox and the Religious Zionists finally wake up and assert themselves eventaully) but for now one must say that the more lenient approach is exemplified by those like Rabbi Bomzer and his Bais Din for conversions which as they note here is not obligated to follow Rav Eliashiv's requirement of "real sincere kabalas mitzvos" but rather like the RCA, which Rav Eisenstein has ruled out because they have rabbis from YU who wear colored shirts and some believe the Earth is older than 6000 years, who probably, like Rabbi Bomzer can be assumed to be a Bais Din where "sincere acceptance of mitzvos" is enough for valid conversion.
This is again nuanced and VERY FAIR thinking (Tropper and Rabbi Eisenstein do not know the meaning of the word fair, they prefer playing dirty -- Tropper is only "fair" to gentiles hitched to Jews who he wants to proselytize to) and a willingness on the part of Rabbis Soloveitchik and Burstein to show that they can tolerate the existince one not like them who follows a more lenient approach (their words) even though they do NOT subscribe to it personally and they do not recommend it to others.
"It is hoped that given the changing trend recognizing universal standards of gerus in a general manner,"
RaP: Notice how careful they are being with their words and not acting like bulls in a China shop as Tropper does mowing down everyone. They are saying that while the trend is GENERALLY to recognize higher and better universal standards, but with word "general" they display an awareness and an acceptnave as well as tolerance (Tropper and Rabbi Eisenstein have never heard of the word "tolerance" -- Tropper is only "tolerant" of gentiles hitched to Jews who he wants to proselytize to) that the world is not made up just of black and white us vs them colors but there is and will always be a range within Halacha so that while for some it may be only chumras (strictures) that count, for others they may be willing to accept kullas (leniencies) in all areas of Halacha including those of conversions.
"confusion over who is accepted as Jewish will be limited"
RaP: This is more a prayer and an observation than a realistic expectation at this time, simply because it's the question of Mihu Yehudi? Who is a Jew? that has been plagueing the Jewish State and the Jewish people since the latter half of the 20th century and is far from over and solved.
"and the Machlokes will subside."
RaP: And indeed it is a Machlokes and from their words it's an admission that it has not subsided and will not as long as Tropper and Rabbi Eisenstein and their cohorts will insist on using the most confrontational as well as most deceitful menas to attain the noble goals of the Torah. Hot-heads and fanatics with agendas are the wrong kind of people to have around yet alone lead the wars in this most complex area of conversion to Torah true Judaism
The retraction/clarification is a major development! That two rabbis who previously were under Tropper’s leash/under Tropper control (and on his list of “approved” basei din) to come out and say they do not agree with him. It is remarkable [...] So for those two rabbis to say that they do not agree with Tropper on something, even a minute mean that the wall of fear Kaplan and Tropper built around rabbis is starting to crack and that good thing for klal Yisroel.
ReplyDeleteThe birth of my second daughter two days ago provided reason and excuse for a private visit with R' Eisenstein, and being that it was a private visit I felt that I could ask him some pointed questions about EJF/Tropper without impinging on Kavod Rav, as I felt it would be if I were to do it when he comes around Kollel.
ReplyDeleteMy questions were the following:
1) The extant of his involvement with EJF/Tropper
2) His endorsement/support of EJF/Tropper
3) Conversion as an option for intermarrieds
4) The Bomzer letter.
The following are his answers.
1) R' Eisenstein said that he had only ever been minimally involved with EJF/Tropper. That he attended a few of their events, in large part to express the views of himself and MaRan Eliashiv. Also on account that he believed that Rabbanim should show support for any Orthodox Kiruv organization. He acknowledged that he was a part of their Rabbinic board, but reiterated that it was only for purposes of expressing and advocating the views of R' Eliashiv.
2) He said that he could only offer blanket endorsement to EJF/Tropper's Kiruv activities, as anything organiztion that tries to bring Jews back to Judaism should recieve full support from Rabbanim. He then said that as far as their conversions that it would have to case by case. He said that he could only offer blanket endorsement to those who have Semicha from him, or whose B"D follow unswervingly the views of Maran Eliashiv. When I pressed specifically if that meant EJF/Tropper, he reiterated that in the specific of EJF/Tropper it would have to be case by case.
3) Concerning the non-Jewish spouse of an intermarried couple, he said that it is impossible to say that they should for sure be converted. He said in a situation where the Jewish spouse was unknoweledgable of his/her Judaism at the time of the marriage and thus a tinok hanishba mamash, he said the door should not be shut and that way should be eased as it would undoubtedly help the Jew return to Judaism. However, in a case where the Jewish spouse was, however minimally aware of their Judaism and the problems of intermarriage, that there needed to be overwhelming reason from another direction in order to allow a conversion. He said that it would ultimately have to be case by case, like any other conversion. He also stated that under no circumstances should they be sought out, as that would overturn thousands of years of tradition.
4) Concerning the Bomzer letter there was initially some confusion. When it finally became clear that the version that I saw(and that is posted here) is in English, he denied ever seeing or signing an English letter. He said that the only letter he and the other Rabbanim signed was in Hebrew. He said the R' Tropper insisted that there be an English version, and was supposed to supply a Translation for the Rabbis to review and sign. He said that he had never seen the letter and thus never signed it. He said specifically, "I am from Chicago, I know how to write my name in English. If I were to sign an English letter, I would sign it in English." When I pointed out the an English letter does exist with his signature on it, he said "Welcome to the age of Photo-Shop, I have seen people with Semicha from the GR"A."
I did ask who he thought could be behind it, and he would only comment, "it is something that needs investigation.
As one of the few people on this blog who posts under their real name, I tend to be silent more often than not.
ReplyDeleteThat said, it seems to me that the 'correction letter' says that not all conversions performed by Rabbi Bomzer are valid. Rather, each must be evaluated on a case by case basis to determine if the convert was sincere. This may be possible today, but what about 20, 40, and more years from now, when the children and grandchildren of those converted by Rabbi Bomzer are ready to marry? Is there ever a point at which someone converted by Rabbi Bomzer can feel safe that they and their descendants will not have their Jewishness called into question?
And how about other rabbis? Do people agree that there is chezekat kashrut for certain B"D? Should every marriage involving a ger or their descendants require an examination of the original conversion for sincerity?
One can imagine a situation where marrying a convert or their descendant is comparable to purchasing real estate. Just as every single time land is bought a title search is done, researching the history of the land back to the days it was stolen from the Indians, so too will the descendant of a (female) convert have to have the validity of his ancestress' conversion re-evaluated. If this happens I imagine converts will become even less desirable as shidduch partners than they are already.
If we are entering a time when some B"D have conversion automatically accepted and others do not, I think the community owes it to potential converts to be a clear as possible as to which B"D fall into the 'accepted without investigation' category.
first off all: Mazal Tov for your daughter and you should see lots of jewish nachas from her!
ReplyDeleteAnd thanks for clarifying the different questions: Which sums up that he gives a level of endorsement (even though not a full endorsement for everything RAbbi Tropper does ) to Rabbi Tropper and he views those things that he participates at the organization as valid and legitimate. Although not fully endorsing them "as a blanket endorsement"; nevertheless what involvement there is, it means that Rabbi Trooper is not doing something horrible that would retrict RE 's involvement at the organization . This in turn does not mean that he approves all things done as the opinion of MaRan Rav Elyashiv but certainly they are as bad (like doing something that has no backing from any opinion) that would restrict any participation there.
It also means that some of the activites involved at EJF to convert some of those cases are within the guideliness and ideal of "kiruv" (according to RE) for his involvement and endorsement revolve those areas!
And it means: that Ejf has many cases of conversions where the jewish spouse is a tinok shenishba
so that his involvement in the organization probably relates to these cases (which i suspect is *MOST* of the cases that come to thier door). And certainly, his participation at the organization certainly means that even in areas of halachik disagreement it does not rise to the level him viewing the BD under him as BD less than hedyotot (for under Rav ELyashiv's position -as stated in the letter of RAbbis Soloveitchik and Burstein- such a BD would be passul bediavad) and their covnersions are accepted in cases which follows his guideliness.
With regards to the last querry. It remains tricky. It appears (and I understand him perfectly and respect him for that ) that he (RE) does notwant to be dragged in the blog world. There is pointed question that you haven't asked what he actually views of R. Bomzer's conversions even those that are "sincere"? What is his opinion regarding being able to be messaderkiddushin to all converts of RB? What was written in the Hebrew version? All these questions, I understand that RE does not want to be dragged to the internet and i res[pect that and respect him; but there should be no inference from his conversations with you that he disagrees one bit less with the contents of the letter! as Rabbis Soloveetchik and Burstein assert in their letter that Rav Elyashiv's position is that a BD who converts insincere conversions have ALL of their conversions not accepted!
To tell the truth, I would refrain from attacking personally Rb as I did on this venue, because perhaps this is not the best venue and not the proper venue, (and perhaps since the man did some good in the past in the gerut issue and he was a somewhat learned man he earns respect for that) and perhaps we should refrain from attacking a person in the internet and I actually refrained from posting the letter that I had in my possession for a long time, because I thought this is not the venue to publicly post here against the man; but the fact that RAP and others have for OVER A YEAR railroaded Tropper in a malicious way, in a animal way (As they write) when actually RT came to fix some of the maladies of the system that RB became as of late a problem, left me no room to withhold this information and let the public know of it and let them know the background of how EJF came about.
For instance, I knew of the Guma sorry a year ago ( i even hinted about it in the past); but I did not feel it was right to share this publicly about all the people involved. But when RAP could not withhold his temptations to malign wrongly RT for the Guma articles publicized in the internet media, it left me no room to withhold the information to show how people make from the tzadik on the case (rabbi tropper who resisted the $$$ of Guma and did not wrongly covnert Jaymie) to a rosho, I could not not anymore hold into myself how this story has the problems (RB and Lypcyc) that conversions factory has evolved for years becoming heroes on the heels of a honesty done by RT and, RAP and cohorts will turn this nice story about Tropper into one of his chases and crude attacks at RT. At that point I had to tell the story as it was and to show who was the tzadik in this case and who was not...
I would not mind if objections were made in a low tone (against rt) for I myself have many resevations; but it went compltely out of proportion and I felt that there was a need to expose the reason for Rt's organization to evolve, as Rabbis Soloveitchik and Burstein explain in their letter the need for "universal halachik standards" for there is a proliferation of cases where many hold that conversions made by many (even the "sincere" ones) are not JEwish! there are many who convert "insincere" converts. I could not see how RT was turned into an animal by these dishonest and sleazy inidviduals who came to protect their turf and present their irrational hatred to the man because he wanted to sway people away from those who make conversions by people who convert many insincere converts (and that in turn takes away the $$$ adbn power and kavod their receive).
IF we can turn the whole discussion away from the people involved and discuss all the issues involved, without mentioning ANY NAMES! I would be the happiest man. If however, people persist to discuss the issues around the people around, it leaves no room for withholding the names and stories of the people in the other side of the coin!
Again Shabbat Shalom and lots of nachas and you zocheh to see her at her chupah and much much more!!
Just to focus again on some points:
ReplyDeleterap:" As far as they are concerned the letter they had signed on had ONLY ONE PURPOSE to warn rabbis to be careful when being mesader kiddshin to check each converted person from Bomzer's Bais Din and make sure that they were indeed kosher converts'.
Roni: Focus, this ONLY PURPOSE in their mind means that if the candidate is not a "sincere convert" (which means that it lacks the sincerity required by "standards of halacha that are generally & universally accepted") the rav should NOT be messader kiddushin.
How can they refrain from making kiddushin to a certain Jew and violate "veohavtem ess hager"??
The answer is: because it lacks in their certain status as Jews and even in the eyes of Rabbis SOloveitchik and Burstein only those performed in this BD that are done according to general adn universal halachik standards are valid to be messader kiddushin.
While RAP makes much of their statement that there is a "lenient" approach" and with a whole sociological reasoning why it was done until now, does not change the important warning by these rabbis (who acknowledge that the camp of Rav ELyashiv = ie. the haredi camp! as we have shown how Rav MOshe, Sternbuch hold like that mamash and so holds, Minchat Yichak, and so Rav Kook, and so Rav hertzog and on and on and on)) that if a convert by RB did not keep torah and mitzvot a rav is not to be messader hias kiddushin. Which means that they clearly declare that even according to their opinion there is a question to the jewishness of those convedrts.
Thisis exttrmely important in the whole discussion. For (in addition trhat tghose who follow Rav ELyashiv's camp the whole responsum of haredii rabbis in the past 100 years do not accept at all the "lenient apporach" and one can wonder if a pupil of Rav moshe can adopt an approach contrary to Rav MOshe etc.) the bottom line is that one must araise awareness that such converts will not be accepted as jews in the vast majority of the haredi yeshivish world and therefore one should use all his influence to dissuade the rabbis to continue to perform what in their eyes are fake and phony conversions
Another thing to focus:
rap: "It was never our intention to indicate that gerusin preformed [sic] by this Bais Din which are done according to the standards of Halachas that are generally & universally accepted are not valid."
RaP: This is important because it clarifies the worry that many people had that what about all of Rabbi Bomzer's conversions over the years where many of the people have lived upstanding Torah lives and are known as righteous converts".
Not at all! they are not taking any position on that matter. After all, they acknowledge that there are two camps on this very issue. They would not attack those who claim that the person is jewish. They would not warn a messader kiddushin not to be messader kiddushin for such a person. But they acknowledge that there are those would take issue (those whoaccept Rav ELyashiv's opinion (ie. the whole haredi camp on this issue and many in the MO camp) and would NOT consider this person jewsish./ In fact, they urge *all* to perform onyl universal standards of conversion to avoid confusion over who is accepted as jewish! While Rap tries to score points, he is being dishonest about this point. This is exactly onwe of the main points of contention thaty haredi and many in MO would not accept a dayan who performs possul conersions to be a kosher dayon even for sincere converts!
Another FOcus: The letter of these two Rabbis does not necessarily reflect the position of Rabbanut Harashit LEyisrael! for even if these rabbis would accept his conversions: 1) it was only regarding the kosher ones (the incinsere does not state that they consider it to be valid, even if the rabbi follows a "lenient approdach" it only means that the Rabbi (in their eyes) not be villified, but since the warn not to be messader kidushin, it means that they do not accept his lenient gerus, 2) And Rabbanut Harashit may have a more stringent standarfds regarding converts from abroad!
Another strong point (that was alread ymade but need reuinforcement to avoid the confusion of the dishonest): They while accwepting the two sides of the coin did NOT condemn the opinion of the harsh ones, being that they acknowledge that if one subscrubes to a more stringent approach he cannot in his honesty state something that is contrary tohis beleifs. Since in these matters, the camp of Rav ELyashiv (ie. the whole haredi camp of posskim and many in the MO camp) subscrube that the lenient approach is NON EXISTENT! IN POSSKIM and is completely null and void they must state their honest to goodness opinion that there is no other opinion and that the approach of this rabbi is phony and fraudlent and a danger to the klal yisroel.
While there is a lot and lots to discuss over these issues:
ReplyDeleteLet us focus one one thing now: Can one claim he is honest by focusing his attacks on a change of halacha by "proselytizing" to gentiles to convert (when RAP attacks with all his crudity at Troper), and does not seem to find room where Tropper has a "lenient approach" on this issue, when he is able to find it that Bomzer has a "leneinent approach" regarding accepting gentiles as Jews when covnerting without kabbalat hamitzvot?
After all converting without kabbalat hamtizvot renders the convert a goy as he was before, and yet he finds it legitimate not to criticize bomzer for it because he follows a "lenient approach" (which was discused before and we will continue to explain it in the future). and "prosetyzing" is not even a "issur sheeyno barur". it is not even mentioned in the Shluchan Aruch!? Even the most fierce machmir, like Rav Eisenstein has stated to Mekubal that it is a tradition of thousands of years (an d did not say that we have a issur or a din in shulchan oruch or plosskim of lechatchila).
While I have my reaservations about a change like this, and have hinted about it numerous times, nevertheless it does not amount to a issur. Rav Moshe writes that "gerut leshem ishut' is an "issur sheynoh barur", how much more "proseltying".
SO, if RAP finds it legitimate to railroad Tropper for something that is not an issur sheynoh barur and makes beleive he is a tzadik with shmoneh begadim over this and could not find the menshlechkeyt to treat him with respect and speak politely, how does he expct others to follow suit when talknig about the mixture of goyim into klal ysireol??? When even people like Rav Soloveitchik (that is not a haredi mamash) respects the opinion of RAv ELyashiv and understands that in Halacha if there is a Yesh omrim that it is assur bedieved it is so and respects that that fellows views cannot allow to be "lenient" and underrstands that there is no room for leniency in the perspective of the world of Rav Elyashiv, so ghow can he demand that the other be "frespectful' in matters of such magnitude when HE (RAP AND OTHERS) do not follow and lead an example. (More on the etzem "leninecy" in another post).
And if he deamnds mentcghlechkeyt from other even in issues that affect the core of our identity, how come he does not follow suti in matters that is only (as important as they are and they ARE IMPORTANT) of 'Tradition" over something that is not even an issur sheynoh barur. why can't he see that Tropper has a "lenient approach" in that matter, to mekarwev and bring back the jewish spouse when he or she is a tinok shenishba??
The truth though is: That his constant attacks for such a long period of time over the "proseltying" issue was only a RED HERRING to to use this as pretext to maliciously attack tropper with utter disrespect and animalistic ruthlessness.
for if he wore those shmoneh bgodim and they are part of him in those matters (where it is only a minhag and whdere there and is much more room for true leniency in MANY MANY MANY POSSKIM) how much more so regarding issues of identity that mostposskim that were accepted by klal yisrooel have ruled that the person is not jewish?? how can he defend here a "lenient approach" (which as said will be discussed on a separate thred but we want to focus on the motives of the person).
and the bogus: that here we have an "mo" and here we have a haredi does not hold any water! Because why should he (rap) attack the man for not being "Haeredi" if in his heart he finds so much room for "a leneint approach" on matters that are essential to our identity??? Is he an apotropos for the haredim or he is looking for the issues that affect us? If he can defend issues that affect us deeply because there is a need or room for a "lenient approach" how much more so on an issue that is not even an "issur sheynoh barur"?
The answer to this: his main interest was and is to attack tropper not because of the "Shmoneh bgadim" but because he raised the awareness of "universal standards of gerut" . that undercut the acceptance of BOmzer's conversions as seen by Rabbi SOloveitchik and Burstein.
Being that he and Co. are enbablers for Bomzder he had to attack Tropper by hook or by crook. Therefore whaever is on the way goes, whether or not they are contradictory positions: IF tropper is too stringent he at fault; if he is too lenienet he is at fault! And therfore he tried all that he could, used and abused Rav Sternbuch's letters, for something that is not really in his heart; he could not care less for: because he is apartner with Bomzer that brings actual goyim into klal yisroel how can his concern about tropper's proseltyizng be genuine?!?
IT is tropper's minimizing of Bomzer's influence on gerut that bothers RAP and CO. The money losses and power that is undercut!
More on the other issues later...
Please forgive me if I make an ignorant statement or observation, but I haven't understood a lot of the back and forth on this thread.
ReplyDeleteWhen I was first exposed to Orthodox Judaism, I was told that if I could not accept the Kashrus of someone who didn't observe Shabbos because if they didn't understand the seriousness of keeping Shabbos, then we couldn't rely on their testimony about what food is or is not Kosher because they either didn't know or didn't care.
The logic made sense to me.
So, if the Rabbi or Beis Din has been known to do conversions wrong, this either means they don't know or they don't care what is right, and are not to be believed when they say they did one right.
Through their self disqualification, there is not longer any basis for accepting their testimony.
I have an Ethopian neighbor who would like to become a U.S. citizen. She's really sincere. If I give her the oath of Citizenship, she's still not a citizen, because I'm not competent to decide who becomes a citizen. (meaning there is more to it than mere sincerity).
If the Beis Din or Rabbi has demonstrated they are no good, it really doesn't matter how sincere the potential convert was.
Larry,
ReplyDeleteShavua Tov!
While you tend to be more silent than not, you seem to be very sincere and it is clear that the idea bothers you. And I fully understand that. One may not be insenstive to the implications of these rulings. One must find way to try to alleviate the ramification of such rulings. However, Torah is Shalom together with Emess (truth) and one may not corrupt the truth in order to reach noble goals even "Shalom" (peace). You see the respected RAbbis (Solovitchik and Burstein) who call to machlokess to subside, that they understand that the way to do that is not by corrupting what is the truth. They understood that Rav Elyashiv's perspective cannot be bent. There is Halachik tenets that impede any compromise over this matter. IF a conversion is done when a person is insincere to commit himself to keep basic Biblical shabbat, Kashrut and Taharat Hamishpach there can be NO ROOM for compromise on these matters.
You rightfully catch the core of what Rabbis Soloveitchik and Burstein has in mind when signing the letter: you write "That said, it seems to me that the 'correction letter' says that not all conversions performed by Rabbi Bomzer are valid. Rather, each must be evaluated on a case by case basis to determine if the convert was sincere".
They urge and warn every messader kiddushin to be careful to avoid this kind of problem where confusion over whether that person can be accepted as a Jew and therefore warn that they not messader kiddushin over those converts who were not sincere.
You ask:" This may be possible today, but what about 20, 40, and more years from now, when the children and grandchildren of those converted by Rabbi Bomzer are ready to marry? Is there ever a point at which someone converted by Rabbi Bomzer can feel safe that they and their descendants will not have their Jewishness called into question?".
I think it is a fair question and it should be addressed by the rabbis how to pass over the necessary information to avoid an unfortunate confusion later down the road. But what the Rabbis did now, was to minimize the pain and confusion by warning all messadrey kiddushin that from now on they check converts done by said rabbi and maybe many of the future cases might be averted by following their guidelines right now!
You ask: "And how about other rabbis? Do people agree that there is chezekat kashrut for certain B"D?".
I believe that today with the converts traveling to Israel in the past decades, that the many batey dinim or Rabbis that perform giyur have had their converts been checked by the rabbinate and other rabbinical bodies and many of the B"D have their cheskat kashrut vindicated that their conversions were valid and that they were scrupulous in converting their candidates and many unfortunately have had their converts verify that the B"d were either unscrupulous or worse negligent or worse willfully disregarded the need to ensure the sincerity of the convert!
you ask:" Should every marriage involving a ger or their descendants require an examination of the original conversion for sincerity?"
It is a Halachik question to be decided by rabbis. But it makes sense that since, unfortunately many many rabbis perform gerut where it does not involve sincerity of the convert, that the rabbis are forced not to look theother way and they must ensure that the gerut of groom or their parents is actaully legitimate.
You conclude:"If we are entering a time when some B"D have conversion automatically accepted and others do not, I think the community owes it to potential converts to be a clear as possible as to which B"D fall into the 'accepted without investigation' category'.
Roni: Exactly! And this is exactly one of the major ideas behind the EJF to ensure that the converts are covered under the "universal standards of gerut" where it would be accepted by all rabbinical bodies. They want to inform and give the minimal standards that all rabbis would ultimately accept. While a difficult task indeed, nevertheless this is their desired goal. So that the convert is converted if he is sincere and if his life is such that he can cope with the difficulties of living a Jewish/Halachik life; keeping shabbat, kashrut and taharat hamishpacha. They would like to facilatate the road for those already intermarried and who are also interested in living a jewish life to be able to convert and get back to track to live a jewish life and be kosher gerim and jews. Therefore, Rabbis like Rav Soloveitchik and Burstein, while not ultra haredi (and maybe do not agree with with everything Rav Elyashiv and other from the haredi camp say) in many matters and aspects; nevertheless felt and feel that there needs to be information given and that a messader kiddushin NOT mekadesh a non sincere convertr. This is also, why they go a step further than that: While they claim that the converts who are sincere are going to be valid even when done by a BD that converts insincere converts according to some opinions, they acknowledge that this is not so according to those that subscribe to Rav ELyashiv's opninion (which in this matter will happen to almost all haredi rabbis and probably many other non haredi Rabbis like RAv Hershel Shechter) and therefore they urge that we should adopt the recent trend in which everyone accepts "universal standards for gerut" which in practice would mean that conversion be done only by those who make only sincere conversions.Even if some feel that this is fanciful fantisy, nevertheless the talk about it will help to minimize the pain and suffering that may arise later down the road and actually the sincere converts will ONLY go to the sincere B"D,
Shavua TOv,
Roni
AS of now, I would like to comment on the issue of the right/obligation to to say the TRUTH and not to corrupt it in the guise of be more "tolerant" when TRUTH does not allow to such a comfort.
ReplyDeleteA writer takes under himself to be the judge and arbiter of others who have the decency to say the truth and they attack these others with their intolerance that they claim their target is guilty off!
LEt it be said: IF BEit Hillel felt that the Halacha is that a certain Sukkah is passul and there is no room for compromise in that situation they would beIN THEIR RIGHT AND OBLIGATION TO ARGUE FORCEFULLY against Beit Shamay or another opponent and they would not be entitled to refrain from opining just because it hurt Beit Shammay sensibilities.
Of course, initially Beit Hillel must attempt to express their opnion in the most "Darkey shalom" way as possible. But if, there is no other to prevent the people from sitting in a passul Sukkah, then they would be obliged to make their point a bit more forcefully to get their point accross and prevent the people from sitting in a passul sukkah.
The same would be true if they would have to rule over a certain food product that peiople would be consuming. In fact, here they would be entitled and obligated to act swifter and with more intensity being that the issue involves consumption of non kosher which has a more detrimental efect upon the spiritual well being of the person as explained in many halachik sources.
How much more, when dealing with the preservation of the kedusha of Am Yisrael and of the separation between the jewish nation and other nations. It is of utmost necessity to state the opinion forcefully and with the strong intensity . This is especially so, when there are opposing forces attempting corrupt the halacha and the core ingredient of what consituttes conversion, it is even of greater necessity to clearify to all the misinformation about these matters.
ON the issue under discussion we have some claiming that there are "leninent" interpretations to the concept of "kabbalat hamtizvot", the MAIN INGREDIENT TO WHAT CREATES THE INSITUTION OF GERUT AND CONVERSION. They claim that there is a "stringent" one and a "lenient" one! Nogthing is further than the truth in these matters and in this issue.
The opinion that holds of the "stringent" version, holds that the Halacha does NOT allow for two menus! and there is a minimal requirement for the klabbalah to take fact. IF the covnert is INCINSERE IN THE COMMITMENT TO LIVE A JEWISH LIFE THERE IS NOTHING DOING! THERE IS NO CONVERSION AND NO "LENIENT" FORMULA! Rav Chayim Ozer Grodzenski has clarified this point already over many many decades ago and ruled that a person who is interested to commit himself to keep shabbat kashrut and tahrat hamishpcha, has his conversion NULL AND VOID from the start.
How can the proponent of this opinion be honest with themselves and not to state their honest opinion and share with other the unadulterated truth that there is NO LENIENT PATh AS others claim?
Now, if there would not be opposition to the dissemination of their opinion, and it would be rosy and there would be no corrupt batey dinim and fake dayanim they would be able to get their point accross, then of course one would of been able to demand that they get their point accross bedarkey noam; but when they have to get theri point accross to people who claim that these rabbis are fanatics and are not keen to the subleties of the realities of the states and places of "freedom of speech" and religion and say "america IS DIFFERENT" (subtly) and the is the "Rav Sherman way is bullish" (when Halacha dictates him to say the truth) it leaves no room for diplomacy and warrants the clear usage of words that leave no room for mistakes and doubts and compromises on the very core of the issues.
This is even, if Beit Hillel knows that Beis shmay says differently and they know that Beit Shmay is in error.
how much more so, when Beit Hillel knows that there was no serious school of opposition of Beit Shmay that opposed them in their previous generation! and that the serious accepted and reknown posskim mostly agreed with their position, they are even more so obligated to make it clear that there is NO Lenient POSITION (not only in practical halacha but)not even in theory!
This is why Rav Elyashiv's camp, on this matter is very forceful, because the other side has hijacked the playing field with false information, making beleive that there is a plethora of rabbis who held/hold of the the "lenient" approach.
Let it be stated clear: that THERE IS ALMOST NO POSSEK IN THE STATUE OF RAV ELYASHIV, RAV MOSHE FEINSTEIN, RAV KOOK, RAV HERTZOG, RAV CHAYIM OYZER GRODZENSKY, CHACHAM OVADAYAH, MINCHAT YITCHAK, TZITZ ELIEZER, RAV SOLOVEITCHIK WHO HOLD THAT KABBALATR HAMTIAVOT IS SOMETHING OTHER THAN COMMITITNG ONESELF TO LIVE THE JEWISH WAY OF LFIE ACCORDING TO SHULCHAN ARUCH!
These RAbbis reject out rightly the notion of a possbile "lenient approach"; for there is no such notion!
How can someone have a complaint that they do not subscribe or theat they do not "tolerate" the "leninet approach"? They are after all obligated to offer their goodness to honest opinion that there is no such "lenient approach"!
Let us also use this opportunity to assert: That the credit for the new trend (that the Rabbis mention in thier clarfication letter) is MAIBNLY a result of those "fanatic" rabbis who for the past decades have worked tirellessly and forcefully to call a spade a spade to state that there is no room for compromises in these issues. They are the nachshons on these issues. Had they not spoken forcefull, had Rav sherman not ruled according to his counciouss, had Rav Amar not been forceful with the RCA that there needs to be better standards; had Rav Eisenstein not cause an uproar in many of his pronouncements and warnings, then we would have had for the past decade more and more goyim into klal yisroel and have not paved the road to attempt to make it better for the future to find a way to do teshuva and to ameliorate what we have been missing in the past decades.
And of course the EJf and others who work to disseminate the info that there is a way for better universal standards are also partially to be commended for their work.
But certainly there is no more room to cover things under the carpet and send converts to people who consistently convert people without kabbalat hamitzvot. And certainly there is no room to say that that rabbi has a more "leneinet approach" and let us send him this or that inidividual; let's send him people who were rejected by other rabbis who convert only sincere converts. This is something that the TREND now is to reject it by those who are serious about helping create a change and YES WE CAN!!!
Having gotten the above cited clarifications from R' Eisenstein, now I want to talk a little about Maaseh Rav.
ReplyDeleteTo note I have never seen R' Eisenstein possul someone's conversion just on the basis of who performed it. See my initial comment here http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2009/02/conversion-subbotniks-are-not-jewish.html about one such case.
When he says that it is case by case that means he is going to evaluate each individual based on a number of factors.
1)are they currently frum
2)what was their process/education before conversion like
3)did they have sincere kabbalat mitzvot, to simply name a few.
It should be noted that according to the Sh"A even a B"D of Hediyot, if the city OR the individuals involved accepted them upon themselves, are a valid B"D b'dieved, but its rulings can be challenged much easier.
That being said this does not make R' Bomzer's converts not converts... they need to be examined case by case, as it appears was the original intent of the letter written, as the "clarification" points out.
However it is also of note to me that R' Eisenstein said that he would only accept R' Tropper's converts "case by case". In effect that statement puts R' Tropper and R' Bomzer on the same level in the eyes of R' Eisenstein.
Poster Mekubal reports verbatim from Rav Nochum Eisenstein who denies ever seeing or signing the English anti-Bomzer letter and promises an investigation. Rav Eisenstein denounces ANY AND ALL efforts at proselytization and denies that he has a close connection to Tropper/EJF. MORE BAD NEWS FOR EJF AND TROPPER AS THEY ISOLATED and ARE NOW PROVEN FORGERS, FRAUDS AND LIARS.
ReplyDeletePoster Roni/Tropper has lost almost his last shred of credibility following on the heels of:
a) The revelations of the Guma Aguiar scandal, that Guma was funding and co-head of EJF while living with a gentile woman who refused to convert via EJF.
b) That the letter condemning Rabbi Bomzer was recanted by Rabbis Moshe Soloveitchik & Naphtoli Burstein.
c) That now, as reported here first hand by poster Mekubal, the SHOCKING news from Rav Eisenstein that he DENIES ever seeing ANY English letter against Rabbi Bomzer, added to his downsizing of his relationship with Rabbi Tropper and EJF, amounts to a third and deadly strike against the Tropper/Kaplan/EJF our-way-or-the-highway conversions regime.
As poster Roni/Tropper continues to twist and and turn and side-step the seriousness of hishumiliating yerida that's taking place in full public view, in crocodile tear-like fake kinder tones as if he were "apologetic"(he's not, it's obvious) for his constant use of vile and abusive language, calling people "criminals", or of taking "essnan zona", or of being a "krummer", and other such plum perjoratives, he now wishes to crawl out the very deep hole he has dug for himself, forgetting that this matter started when he was contacted by Rabbi Eidensohn/da'as torah the owner of this blog to minimally come up with written haskomas for EJF reaching out to goyim which to this day he has not produced, and was then sent letters from Rav Shternbuch and from the BADATS to stop his proselytizion all over the world, and that waqs also circulated to many rabbinic Recipients and it created Publicity on this blog and in rabbinic circles yet he ignored them as long as he had the Richy Rich wunderkind Guma Aguiar who was controlling the Lillian Jean Kaplan Foundation pumping in millions of dollars to Tropper Horizon/Kol Yaakov yeshiva and for the cockamamie EJF hare-brained scheme of reaching out to the world gentiles not just hitched to Jews but also to billions who might have an ounce of Jewish ancestry going back thousands of years.
Now comes the shocking revelations by poster Mekubal who claims to have PERSONALLY spoken with Rav Nochum Eisenstein in Yerushalyim a few days ago and has now reported back, and the verdict is bad for Topper and EJF. It's worth a closer look and analysis, my comments start with "RaP":
"mekubal said...
The birth of my second daughter two days ago provided reason and excuse for a private visit with R' Eisenstein,"
RaP: Mazel Tov! You are truly privileged to have such access while Tropper is losing/lost his!
"and being that it was a private visit"
RaP: But the contents of the visit have now been posted here by you so that we can assume that they are no longer private but very public for this is a public matter of the tzorchei tzibbur, or else you would not violate Rav Eisenstein's trust in you keeping this private, and indeed one must conclude that Rav Eisenstein has actually given you the explicit green light, and maybe even encouraged you, to publish his words and views almost verbatim, and FINALLY we are getting the answer that Rabbi Dr. Eidensohn asked when he put up the post Rav Nachum Eisenstein where are you? (November 1, 2008).
Indeed now we know, he was mulling things over and was clearly distancing himself from Rabbi Tropper and the EJF project as we accurately concluded MANY times on this blog in numerous posts (to poster Roni's/Troppper's chagrin and constant denial) proving yet again that poster Roni/Tropper cannot be believed in his words that never give an inch unless and until one can disprove him right here and it's now happened a few times over so that we can safely conclude that poster Roni/Tropper is a sociopathic liar who will lie through his teeth as he is staring you in face to protect his own hide and that the last thing he has in mind is presenting the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
"I felt that I could ask him some pointed questions about EJF/Tropper"
RaP: You sure did! Thank you! You are a very brave man and you have performed a great public service to Klal Yisroel in many ways. You have saved the honor of Rav Eisenstein that was clearly going to be dragged down to the level of the mud Tropper lives in. One thing you can say for Rav Eisenstein he does not play games. Tocho kebaro. He says what he believes and there is no hidden agenda. You can know where he stands, unlike Tropper who is mercurial and thrives in an environment of guerilla warfare against his enemies.
Poster Mekubal has served well to help the hundreds of rabbonim who have been led astray and fooled by Tom Kaplan's and Guma Aguiar's lures of fools gold, and these revelations will stop the slide down the slippery slope of everyone landing up in Tropper's web of manipulations to advance his own glory at all costs.
"without impinging on Kavod Rav, as I felt it would be if I were to do it when he comes around Kollel."
RaP: All wise moves. Thank you for your efforts on behalf of all those who have toiled on this thankless task of coming to grips and grasping the whos, whats, whens, hows, and whys of EJF since it hit the scene a few years ago with expectations that every Orthodox rov fall in line with it "or else", and now it's being revealed as a hypocritical, conniving, manipulative and self-aggrandizing scheme designed to lure in limitless amounts of gentiles into Judaism and crown Tropper as the king of the Jews in megalomaniacal fashion.
"My questions were the following:
1) The extant of his involvement with EJF/Tropper
2) His endorsement/support of EJF/Tropper
3) Conversion as an option for intermarrieds
4) The Bomzer letter."
RaP: Excellent questions all. the next time you see him, asking him why, based on the scandals involving EJF, such as with Guma Aguiar being allowed to be at the EJF controls for so long as co-chairman, the misuse of a Hebrew letter (yet to be made public) that he never knew was going to be translated into English and denies seeing it, added to the rejection of the same letter by Rabbis Soloveitchik and Burstein why simply does he not wash his hands once and for all of Tropper, denounce him for the trouble-maker that he is, and call on everyone to stay away from him and EJF as Rav Shternbuch and the BADATS figured out and called for over the past year and a half, see:
a) Rav Moshe Sternbuch - Kiruv for non-Jews (August 10, 2007) (original document) and Rav Moshe Sternbuch - Authorized Translation (August 10, 2007);
b) Bedatz letter regarding conversion (November 18, 2007) (original document) and Bedatz letter regarding conversion [approved translation] (November 18, 2007);
c) Bedatz Letter regarding EJF signed by Gaavad (February 14, 2008) (original document).
"The following are his answers."
RaP: Indeed. And they must be viewed and understood as about as close to an official response from Rav Eisenstein can be, short of him issuing a truly genuine letter tha can be PROVEN to come from him.
"1) R' Eisenstein said that he had only ever been minimally involved with EJF/Tropper."
RaP: This is truly amazing because from poster Roni/Tropper it was claimed that Rav Eisenstein was involved with Tropper every step of the way when EJF set up a network of so-called affiliated "approved" batei din.
So if this is Rav Eisenstein's word against what poster Roni/Tropper has stated adamantly that Rav Eisenstein was still very tight with them as he had always been. Therefore, yet again, poster Roni/Tropper is revealed to be a liar (not as a curse word but as an accurate description of his words not jiving with Rav Eisenstein's.)
"That he attended a few of their events, in large part to express the views of himself and MaRan Eliashiv."
RaP: Indeed he did, as when he told the Modern Orthodox rabbis that those dayanim who wore colored shirts and jackets and/or held views that world was older than 6000 literal years could not sit as dayanim for conversions. This causesd and uproar and Tropper tried to calm the anger of Rav Hershel Shachter and the RCA rabbis who withdrew and regrettted any involvement with EJF since. At least they saw the light and even though they are obviously still Modern Orthodox rabbis, they do not have to deal with and keep on explaining away all of Tropper's traps and troubles that he threw their way.
It was the first public indication that Rav Eisenstein was going to go in a different direction to Tropper who was still palling around with Guma Aguiar and Guma's goyishe shiksa wife while Rav Eisenstein was roaming the world's intermarriage trouble spots confronting any batch of hypocritical conversions rabbis he came across, except Tropper of course, which took time, but is now coming into full public view as the result of the recent scandals with the Guma betrayal and the fake English anti-Bomzer letter that was forged by Tropper without any of the rabbis on it knowing about it.
"Also on account that he believed that Rabbanim should show support for any Orthodox Kiruv organization."
RaP: These are just words of consolation and really not to the point. By sinking into the Tom Kaplan-Guma Aguiar honey-money trap and taking millions of dollars from their Lillian Jean Kaplan Foundation for his own private Horizons/Kol Yaakov yeshiva outfit and then launching the truly wild EJF escapade, Tropper propelled himself way far and beyond primal raw kiruv that's done mainly with Jews only and entered into an all new twilight zone, in some ways pioneering into a terrible unknown of dealing with the reality of Kiruv in situations of what to do with the gentiles hitched to the Jews in kiruv programs. In this regard see Kiruv I - The end of kiruv as we know it! (July 18, 2008) and Kiruv II - Paradigm change for outreach workers (July 18, 2008)
Instead of rejecting the bulk of the gentiles and Jews hitched to gentiles the new Tropper/Kaplan/Guma strategy was to launch a drive to welcome in those gentiles with the rabbis being blind-sided into enabling this global cockamamie scheme that the flew in the face of thousands of years of Jewish law and Halachic tradition as Rav Eisenstein notes below.
"He acknowledged that he was a part of their Rabbinic board, but reiterated that it was only for purposes of expressing and advocating the views of R' Eliashiv."
RaP: Ok, so one can assume that he also expressed objections from Rav Eliashiv to Tropper about Tropper's submission to the Kaplan/Guma Evangelical Christian-originated desire to proselytize to millions of gentiles hitched to Jews that noone had ever done and that poster Roni/Tropper claimed was an ever so simple "formula" of better to do a minor sin to save the intermarried Jews of a grievous sin, such as was rejected as an opening strategy by HaRav Eliashiv, shilta - Kiruv of intermarried couples (July 18, 2008) (original document) where Rav Efrati clearly states conveying Rav Eliashiv's view that: "Rav Eliashiv, shlita has repeatedly said that those living as intermarried couples cut themselves off from the Jewish people. Furthermore he holds that we are obligated to distance ourselves from them and their society and to cut off all connection with them" as well!
"2) He said that he could only offer blanket endorsement to EJF/Tropper's Kiruv activities, as anything organiztion that tries to bring Jews back to Judaism should recieve full support from Rabbanim."
RaP: Sure, anybody could do that, that's the easy part and most people agree that Tropper should head back to Monsey and stick to his old job in his Kol Yaakov yeshiva, but that's not the issue under discussion. The main point here is EJF and Tropper's controversial performances running around visiting conversions batei din, and whether Rav Eisenstein can give his full endorsement to it and all he can say is that "I like Tropper as a kiruv rabbi with Jews presumably (hopefully), but as for anything else, like trying to mekarev goyim hitched to Jews and making programs for that, count me out, it ain't happening."
"He then said that as far as their conversions that it would have to case by case."
RaP: Good morning America. Tropper's false attitude of the holier than thou EJF conversion is revealed to be the hollow and shallow sham that it always was as it's finally revealed that Tropper is no different to Bomzer or any other Orthodox rabbi doing conversions, they can only be judged on a case by case basis. Now if Rabbi Eisenstein could have only told that to Rav Sherman who brutally ruled against Rav Drukman's conversions and did not state the accepted and correct Halachic thing that it must be done on a case by case basis Rav Eisenstein will have closed the circle. But Rav Eisenstein has been Rav Eliashiv's point man to America, while Rav Sherman ruled on Israeli based conversions by Rav Drukman with some connections to Europe as well.
"He said that he could only offer blanket endorsement to those who have Semicha from him, or whose B"D follow unswervingly the views of Maran Eliashiv."
RaP: The implication being that Tropper, for all his blowing of the "Rav Eliashiv trumpet" in his own favor is now proven to be a liar again because Rav Eisenstein is clearly saying that Tropper cannot be taken as someone who speaks for or abides by or acts on behalf of Rav Eliashiv's ways in any ways and that Tropper's claims about this are therefore false and that basically he has no right even to invoke the name of Rav Eliashiv since Rav Eliashiv's people would never back him up!
"When I pressed specifically if that meant EJF/Tropper, he reiterated that in the specific of EJF/Tropper it would have to be case by case."
RaP: Seems like poster Mekubel cannot believe what he is hearing, but whichever way you slice it, this is all really, really BAD news for Tropper.
Tropper is being PUBLICLY disowned by Rav Eisenstein and CUT LOOSE from Rav Eliashiv's world, right here on this very blog, and it serves him right too!
Many people can start breating a lot easier, but it will take more time to completely put to rest the EJF/Tropper nightmare of draculian proportions.
"3) Concerning the non-Jewish spouse of an intermarried couple, he said that it is impossible to say that they should for sure be converted."
RaP: This goes against every single thing that poster Roni/Tropper has been blasting at everyone on this blog who come within an inch of his space.
This is the REAL MEAT that Rav Eisenstein is now producing and it's AGAINST all of the arguments that poster Roni/Tropper has belabored us with time and time again. Shame on poster Roni/Troppert for wasting our time with such vehemance with your outright lies! Rav Eisenstein's view is CLEARLY like the one cited above from Rav Eliashiv, that one does not start out with a strategy of open arms to welcome every last gentile with a Jewish connection back to Judaism.
That is something that only the true Moshiach could do, as Judaism teaches and the RAMBAM at the end of Hilchos Melachim says will be a job for the true Moshiach and Eliyahu HaNavi but certainly not for the EJF that was set and run by the false tripple messiahs of Tropper/Kaplan/Guma.
"He said in a situation where the Jewish spouse was unknoweledgable of his/her Judaism at the time of the marriage and thus a tinok hanishba mamash, he said the door should not be shut and that way should be eased as it would undoubtedly help the Jew return to Judaism. However, in a case where the Jewish spouse was, however minimally aware of their Judaism and the problems of intermarriage, that there needed to be overwhelming reason from another direction in order to allow a conversion. He said that it would ultimately have to be case by case, like any other conversion."
RaP: Here Rav Eisenstein breaks new ground by saying that only Jews who are a "tinok shenishba" gets to have their gentile partner considerd for conversion but if they know a little alef bais and eat some knaidlach on Pesach they are out. This is a tough way to set up the situation. Who decides on how little one needs to know before accepting them into conversion programs? And what about the known klal by the Chazon Ish that EVERYONE in modern times, including even the frum, are regarded as "tinokos shenishbu" and not just only those who know nothing about Yiddishkeit. At any rate, why not just reject all of them, period? Maybe someone wth just a little Jewish knowledge will turn out to be a better Jewish partner to the convert he's hitched to in the end? This is a complex discussion for all rabbis who do conversions to deal with and there is no one formula that will hold and work for all, but at least Rav Eisenstein is expressing some sort of idea for us to chew on.
"He also stated that under no circumstances should they be sought out, as that would overturn thousands of years of tradition.
RaP: ARE YOU LISTENING poster Roni/Tropper, this means NO PROSELYTIZING and certainly take back your silly krummer sevoras you plastered all over this blog to say the opposite thing that Rav Eisenstein states loud and clear, and in case you don't get it, he is saying: Under no circumstances should ANY potential converts be sought out, as that would overturn thousands of years of tradition.
And that's tradition with a capital T, as in self-understood Mesora, and not like you kept on asking where does it say it's not allowed (the worst kind of krumkeit!) and here is your answer, your own former associate and THE link to Rav Eliashiv states flat out that under no circumstances should ANY potential converts be sought out, as that would overturn thousands of years of tradition !!!
"4) Concerning the Bomzer letter there was initially some confusion."
RaP: You are saying that Rav Eisenstein was confused by what you told him, right ?, and NOT that when "a" letter was written, if it was ever written in whatever form, that there was "confusion" at that time. The confusion you are describing here is the sheer bewilderment that came across Rav Eisenstein when you told him that some fraud had submitted an English letter that as far as Rav Eisenstein was concerned was lo haya velo nivra and sheer hocus pocus. Proving that the English anti-Bomzer letter is a total sham and fraud from start to finish because now the supposed chief signatoree himself and the one whose organization, the "Vaad HaOlami LeInyanei Giur" did NOT even issue such a letter! Poster Roni/Tropper is now conclusively proven to be the ultimate chutzpenyak and absolute liar, fraud and perhaps even frighteningly a gangster based on the other horrid language he used throughout the time he came here to defend his and Tropper's views. Shame on him. He owes everyone a huge apology, starting with Rav Eisenstein and it should be in writing and then posted on this blog and then this matter can MAYBE brought to at least some small measure of closure.
THUS, Roni's red herring defense of EJF (January 6, 2009) by introducing "attacks-against-Bomzer-as-some-sort-of-decoy-retro-active-defense-of-EJF & Tropper" is proven beyond any doubt by none other than Rav Eisenstein himself based on this report by poster Mekubal and as was started with the "clarification" from Rabbi Soloveitchik and Burstein in this post.
"When it finally became clear that the version that I saw(and that is posted here) is in English, he denied ever seeing or signing an English letter."
RaP: So therefore, the letter manipulatively and maliciously sent in by poster Roni/Tropper to Rabbi Eidensohn/da'as torah on this blog against Bomzer is an absolute 100% FRAUD and poster Roni/Tropper is a proven 100% liar and FORGER worthy of any criminal (and the word "criminal" is the one poster Roni/Tropper threw many times at Bomzer and others he hated.)
"He said that the only letter he and the other Rabbanim signed was in Hebrew."
RaP: Ok, so could you please ask him to forward that to Rabbi Eidensohn and get permission to post it since many have been fooled to believe that the English letter was "definitive" when it's just a fraudulent forgery worthy of crooks.
"He said the R' Tropper insisted that there be an English version, and was supposed to supply a Translation for the Rabbis to review and sign. He said that he had never seen the letter and thus never signed it."
RaP: So this is yet again PROOF POSITIVE that the English letter came from Tropper's house of tricks. This is how he does business. it's the way of a sociopath. How can you do such things and put to shame nine of your colleagues so brutally and to have the chutzpa to forward it here and think he can get away with it?
The whole anti-Bomzer letter is now DECLARED fully and openly to be a ziyuf an outright forgery and Tropper has misused the signatures of NINE key rabbis who are DAYANIM forcing some to write humiliating (for them) letters of "clarification" and now for the head rabbi of the Vaad HaOlami LeInyanei Giurwhose letter-head was misused to deny point blank that he ever saw it or signed it, and in fact would not sign it unless he knew of it and read it which he denies ever doing!
"He said specifically, "I am from Chicago, I know how to write my name in English. If I were to sign an English letter, I would sign it in English."
RaP: As did Rabbis Soloveitchik and Burstein and as do all the Rosh Yeshivas when they sign letters typed in English. Yet when poster Roni/Tropper was repeatedly asked to state who the rabbis were that signed on in Hebrew and who they represenetd all poster Roni/Tropper could retort with were the typical Tropper-like insults of "get a tutor" and "go learn how to read without dots" or some such malarkey. That's how Tropper uses his kishron to come up with forgeries and then to deflect questions by trying to make people in front of him feel stupid, as if since he knows how to learn (he doesn't, he is a talmid chochem shoiteh and a shakran, based on all this gargantuan krummkeit and dishonesty he reveals here with this forgery) that he is somehow better endowed with mental acuity than others who are just not stupid enough to buy into his 175 IQ rotten intellectual manure.
"When I pointed out the an English letter does exist with his signature on it, he said "Welcome to the age of Photo-Shop, I have seen people with Semicha from the GR"A."
RaP: This may sound "funny" but it's deadly serious involving hundreds of rabbis who went to EJF concerts, tens of millions of dollars of funny-money coming from Guma Aguiar who was a well-versed Christian Evangelical funding and co-chairing EJF and Tropper's Horizons/Kol Yaakov yeshiva and now to learn that Tropper has sunk so low as to FORGE and LIE and pass it of as real and get it posted online on this blog that he hates making fools of everyone as he thinks he gets the last laugh, in order to score points against Bomzer, only really as a distraction for the serious terminal ills that EJF was undergoing with the Guma Aguiar/Jamie's non-conversion meltdown, the onging harping in Internet ads to do mass proselytizations to gentiles staring with those hitched to Jews and then on to another third of humanity, about 2 billion people to convert to Judaism (Tropper's and Guma's grandiosity at work are horrid combos) and having to deal with the unforgotten and unforgetable letters of waring and rebuke from Rav Shternbuch and the BADATS all added up to great headaches for Tropper and EJF so that by resorting to forging a letter against Bomzer and getting posted on this blog of all places AND TRICKING RABBI EIDENSOHN TO POST IT AND FOOL MANY PEOPLE and causing first Rabbis Soloveitchik and Burstein to scratch their heads and "clarify" and hence RETRACT and now the final blow that Rav Eisenstien is saying the letter was manufactured by photo-shop (good grief, this is so pathetic if you think about it) that now poster Roni/Tropper instead of just admitting he lied and forged and manipulted and say sorry forgive me, he has the audacity to carry on and build on the letter from Rabbis Soloveitchik and Burstein and now the words of Rav Eisenstein and spin and twist them as if they were actually "defenses" for Tropper when in fact they are the strongest condemnations humanly imaginable, that Tropper is plain and simple a devious and dangeours liar who will use other rabbis ruthlessly and count on their humanity to go along with him when they should simply disown, dump and defrock him!!!!
"I did ask who he thought could be behind it, and he would only comment, "it is something that needs investigation."
RaP: Sure, AND A HARSH PUNISHMENT!!!!
Here Tropper/Roni caught again lying (or at least not telling the truth).
ReplyDeleteFirst, he is telling us that the rabbis show their support to him and to his methods by showing us in his conferences. Here R’ Eisenstein says he comes only to advocate his views (and it is free ticket anyway), he says the same for being on EJF rabbinical board.
Second, he is telling us the rabbonim agree to his prosetelzing of Latinas, Asian and WASP girls who are hitched to Jews and here we hear it straight from the horse’s mouth that this is not the case.
Third, he is telling us (and to gullible conversion candidates ) that his conversions are universally accepted. They are obviously not accepted by the rabbanut and now we hear that even r' Eisenstein will decide case by case. Maybe he should stop ask the people in the EJF commercials to repeat like parrots ‘Universally Accepted Conversion’ and say instead ‘Universally Unaccepted conversions’.
Fourth, R’ Eisenstein says he did not sign the letter Tropper/ Roni circulated, and for r’ Eisenstein assertion that it needs investigation of who circulated faked letter with his signature, I will go out on a limb and suggest that it was Tropper.
It looks that the rats are leaving a sinking ship.
MT,
ReplyDelete1- You can turn and drey how much you want butr RAv Eisenstein is A PARTICIPANT IN THE ORGANIZATION. "from the horses mouth". even if he disagrees with some of what goes on, it does NOT passel the organization for him to be be an ACTIVE PARTIPICANT IN IT! This means that the railroad that R. Tropper gets by you and RAP does not warrant his non participation in his organization (even with a free ticket).
2- While Rav Eisensetein might not agree with him on some of his doings (and I mmyself have some reservations on it) he still has the backing of other rabbis, for otherwise Rabbi Eisenstein would not be an active participant on such an organization that does not have baking of it's position by some rabbis. BY now, you should know that Rav Feinstein is an active backer to this organization.
And I'll reitetrate: for *YOU* to complain about his recruiting the latinas is a complegte hypochrisy, for as explained so many times: *YOU* complain that he is very strict by the conversions; all of sudden you become the tzadik with the shmonah bgodim objecting him to mekarev a tinok shenishbah who has intermarried.
3- 3- While his conversions may not get 100% of universal acceptance he strives to get it; he strives to get a standard that msot rabbis would accept. Rav Eisenstein is very machmir. He might argue with some of the covnersions. But the STANDARDS AND THE EFFORT IS THERE. I KNOW THAT HE DOES NOT HOLD OF ANY CONVERSIONS BY RABBI BOMZER AS THE LETTERS BY RABBIS BURSTEIN AND SOLOVEITCHIK ATTEST THAT RAV ELYASHIV PASSEL ALL CONVERSION DONE BY BD THAT OFTEN CONVERTS INSINCERE CONVERTS.
4) Whatever Rav Eisenstein tells the internet population is immaterial to the letter that adfter so much pressure for people who actaully signed it to back out, gave us Baruch Hashem another letter by two great rabbis CLARIFYING THE DANGERS OF FRABBONIM MESSADER KIDDUSHIN TO COVNERTS MADE BY BOMZER AND THANK G-D IT ACCONMPLISHED A LOT! NOw go terrorize the other signatories to come back with other clarifications....
Mekubal,
ReplyDeleteI though we are going to have a clarification to what RavEisenstein said regarding Rabbi Bomzer. While your maasseh rav may be your observations of maasseh rav; it does not reflect upon the opinions of R. eisenstein about R. Bomzer.
MEkubal:"To note I have never seen R' Eisenstein possul someone's conversion just on the basis of who performed it".
Roni: I have heard many times from him that he passels a gerus based on the performer of the gerus.
Mekubal:"1)are they currently frum
2)what was their process/education before conversion like
3)did they have sincere kabbalat mitzvot, to simply name a few"
These are not *all* factors. tbhere is one more factor that is mentioned in the letter of clarification and is in many places in sheelot utshuvot by posskim, and that is the fact that Rabbi performs often gerut with insincere converts. This itself may disqulify the rabbi as kosher B"D.
While Shulchabn Aruch states that hedyotos's conversions are valid bediavad it not mean that there are some people "Garua mehedyotot"! Even "hedyotot" may require some qualification. IF a rabbi often performs gerut to not sincere converts he may be garua mehedyotot!. Rav Moshe FEinstein himself IM YD 160 raises this concern:
וגם צריך שתהיה קבלת המצות בפני ג' ומעכב אפילו בדיעבד כדאיתא בש"ך /יו"ד/ סי' רס"ח סק"ט. ולכן בעצם יש לפקפק על הגרות שיש רבנים שמקבלין הא אנן סהדי ברובן שאין מקבלות המצות כדהוכיח סופן וגם שלא תהא עדיפא מבעלה היהודי שנתגיירה בשבילו שהיא רואה שגם הוא מחלל שבת ומופקר להרבה איסורין. ...הרבנים המקבלים שלא יחשבו עוד גריעי מהדיוטות."
This is also what Rav Sternbuch rules in Teshuvot Vehanhagot 4/230 that B"d that often makes insincere converts disqualifies their status as B"d meikar hadin! and he requires a re-conversion meikar hadin!
This is also what the RAbbis Soloveitchik and Burstein write in their letter: "...the opinion of HaGaon HaRav Yosef Shalom Elyashiv Shlita, that a Beis Din that does conversions which often DOES NOT HAVE REAL SINCERE KABBALAT MITZVOR can not serve for Beis Din for gerut, even where there is sincere acceptane of mitzvot...": THIS IS RAV ELYASHIV'S OPINION and I highly doubt it that Rav Eisenstein (whose main issue as you yourself corroborate is to give over Rav ELyashiv's position) would hold differnt than Rav ELyashiv.
All of the above is just parperaot, but I know for a fact that Rav Eisenstein in some cases passels gerut based on the rav who did the geerut! It is pashut that much of the discussion and heat here is because there is an element where a person becomes LESS THAN A HEDYOT (in the words of Rav MOshe FEinstein!).
Thaat being said: In the eyes of Rav ELyashiv it makes much of R. Bomzer's converts not converts (those who were done after he began doing "often" insincere converts)! and this is what Rav S. and B. write that they convey the opinions of RAv ELyashiv that according to Rav ELyashiv his converts are not accepted since he often makes insincere converts!
MT,
ReplyDeleteIn addition to the above: RAv Eisenstein also says, that EJF has a lot of "kiruv" going on which is not labeled as "proselyting"; for if *all* they would do is "proseltyize" he would not offer any participation and endorsement!
and now to the head spinmaster and manipulator the kasherer of BOmzer and Jamie Aguiar's conversion!
ReplyDelete"Poster Mekubal reports verbatim from Rav Nochum Eisenstein who denies ever seeing or signing the English anti-Bomzer letter and promises an investigation".
Whatever a person states to a laymen, to be said chutz lebeys din is irrelevant. Whatever a person says to people wanting to terrorize him (in the internet and then back to him) is irrelevant, veloy osseh dibur sheloy to RAP (via "mekubal") maasseh.
Now, let's to go the machinations and what really matters as to the CONTENT OF THE LETTER THAT DISQUALIFY BOMZER AS A DAYAN FOR GERUT:
rap:"Rav Eisenstein denounces ANY AND ALL efforts at proselytization and denies that he has a close connection to Tropper/EJF. MORE BAD NEWS FOR EJF AND TROPPER AS THEY ISOLATED and ARE NOW PROVEN FORGERS, FRAUDS AND LIARS".
roNI: lies and lies! He denies giving approval for prosetyzation; but he clearly stated that he is A PARCTICIPANT IN THE KIRUV ACTIVITIES OF THE ORGANIZATION! which means that a) the ORganization is that bad, that it would warrant his non participation at the organization, b) that the organization does some "kiruv" by THE *CONVERSIONS* THAT IT MAKES, FOR ejf IS PRIMARILY A CONVERSION ORGANIZATRION, WHICH MEANS THAT frAV eISENSTEIN HOLDS THAT MANY OF THE ejF'S DOINGS FALL UNDER KOSHER KIRUV AND NOT LIKE YOU AND OTHER MANIPULATORS HAVE CONTENDED!
rap:"Poster Roni/Tropper has lost almost his last shred of credibility following on the heels of:
a) The revelations of the Guma Aguiar scandal, that Guma was funding and co-head of EJF while living with a gentile woman who refused to convert via EJF".
rONI: yOU BRING THIS UP AGAIN AND i WILL BRING UP AGAIN, THAT your/bomzer credibility HJAVE BEENS HREDED TO PIECES BY THIS CONVERSION! TROPPER'S CREDIBILITY WAS RAISED BY HIS REFUSAL TO COVNERT FOR $$$NAN ZONAH MONEY!
RAP:"b) That the letter condemning Rabbi Bomzer was recanted by Rabbis Moshe Soloveitchik & Naphtoli Burstein".
ROni: it was NOT recantred; it was CLARIFIED AND BARUCH HASHEM the clarifcation makes it quite clear that Bomzer' covnerts should not be "messadered kiddushin" by any rov! for his conversion are questionable in and of itself by the person who makes those covnersions as explaiined at legnth in their letter and in my observations here.
RAP:"c) That now, as reported here first hand by poster Mekubal, the SHOCKING news from Rav Eisenstein that he DENIES ever seeing ANY English letter against Rabbi Bomzer,"
Roni: which does not minimize the shocking letter of clarification by R. Solovetichik and Burstein and other Rabbis who signed the letter and certainly anyone who knows Rabbi Eisenstein knows what he holds of Rabbi Bomzer and what status of "latzur al pi tzoolichito" the certficates of Bomzer have in his eyes!
RAP:" added to his downsizing of his relationship with Rabbi Tropper and EJF, amounts to a third and deadly strike against the Tropper/Kaplan/EJF our-way-or-the-highway conversions regime".
ROni: Actaully we have ADDED a voice that states tyhat he is an ACTIVE PARTICIPATANT IN SOME OF EJF'S ACTIVITIES! AND HE CALLS THE "KIRUV"!
rap:" for his constant use of vile and abusive language, calling people "criminals", or of taking "essnan zona", or of being a "krummer", and other such plum perjoratives, he now wishes to crawl out the very deep hole he has dug for himself, forgetting that this matter started when he was contacted by Rabbi Eidensohn/da'as torah the owner of this blog to minimally come up with written haskomas for EJF reaching out to goyim which to this day he has not produced,",
rONI: a lie1 it comes as rap the crude attacker of tropper had the incessant PERSONAL ANIMALISTIC ATTACKS UPON R TROPPER, HAVING CONSTANT INSULTS AT MANY RABBIS, LIKE RAV WOSNER, RAV REUVEN FEINSTEIN AND ON He could not produce the most comon mentschlichkeyt towards the person R. Tropper and his often veiled apologetics about the kiruv by rav tropper were followed and and anticuipated with vicous, malicious, animalistic ifrrational shmootz at Rabb i Tropper.
RAP:" and was then sent letters from Rav Shternbuch and from the BADATS to stop his proselytizion all over the world, and that waqs also circulated to many rabbinic Recipients and it created Publicity on this blog and in rabbinic circles":
Roni: but they were done with utmost disrespect and malicious hatred and combined with many LIES! AS HE DOES RIGHT NOW IN THIS POST!
rap:" yet he ignored them as long as he had the Richy Rich wunderkind Guma Aguiar who was controlling the Lillian Jean Kaplan Foundation pumping in millions of dollars to Tropper Horizon/Kol Yaakov yeshiva and for the cockamamie EJF hare-brained scheme of reaching out to the world gentiles not just hitched to Jews but also to billions who might have an ounce of Jewish ancestry going back thousands of years".
rONI: hERE WE GO AGAIN. YOUR LANGUAGE IS HOLY MOLLY! WHEN RA EISENTEIN SAYS THAT THE EJF DOES KIRUV ACITVITES! (WHILE HE DISAGRESS WITH THEIR PROSELTYZATION TECHNIQUES HE STILL IS A PARTICIPANT OF SOME OF THEIR "KIRUV" ACITVITIES. It's hardly only a "ockmamie hare-brained scheme" to reach out to gentiles; otherwise Rav Eisentein would have NOTHING OF KIRUV TO DO IN THAT ORGANIZATION! in any event, why is your animalistic style anymore legitiamte than your E$$$NAN ZONAH ANIMAL ACITIVITES THAT YOU ARE PARTNER TO AND SUPPORT?
rap:"Now comes the shocking revelations by poster Mekubal who claims to have PERSONALLY spoken with Rav Nochum Eisenstein in Yerushalyim a few days ago and has now reported back, and the verdict is bad for Topper and EJF. It's worth a closer look and analysis, my comments start with "RaP":
"mekubal said...
"and being that it was a private visit"
RaP: But the contents of the visit have now been posted here by you so that we can assume that they are no longer private but very public for this is a public matter of the tzorchei tzibbur, or else you would not violate Rav Eisenstein's trust in you keeping this private, and indeed one must conclude that Rav Eisenstein has actually given you the explicit green light,",
Roni: I will stop here and ask a question: to Mekubal: did *you* tell Rav Eisenstein that your conversations would be posted IN PUBLIC? SO THAT RAP CAN SAY THAT "HE HAS GIVEN YOU A GREEN LIGHT?"
YOU RAP A LIAR AND A MANIPULATOR AND A SLEAZY PESON IMBBEBED WITH E$$$NAN ZONAH MONEY!!!
RAP:" and maybe even encouraged you, to publish his words and views almost verbatim, and FINALLY we are getting the answer that Rabbi Dr. Eidensohn asked when he put up the post Rav Nachum Eisenstein where are you? (November 1, 2008)."
Roni: One thing though Rav Eisenstein has given in favor of R. Tropper: He staetd to him that he actually participated and endorsed some of the activites of Ejfand that is the activites that realtre TO KIRUV. He actually endorsed EJf for doing Kiruv!
RAP:"Poster Mekubal has served well to help the hundreds of rabbonim who have been led astray and fooled by Tom Kaplan's and Guma Aguiar's lures of fools gold, and these revelations will stop the slide down the slippery slope of everyone landing up in Tropper's web of manipulations to advance his own glory at all costs".
ROni: Here again the animalistic, hatred statements by someone whose motivations is not the concerns that Tropper will convert a shikssah; he is concerned that Rabbis wouls support a more "universal standard of gerut" that Rabbis SOloveitchik and Burstein have clarified to us and that Bomzer would be put out of business and that his false gerim that he had supported would not have their kids be messader kidushin unless they reconvert; hence the irratrional hatred despite Rav Eisenstein ENDORSMENT OF THE KIRUV ACITVIITES BY THE EJF!
"without impinging on Kavod Rav, as I felt it would be if I were to do it when he comes around Kollel."
RaP: "... EJF since it hit the scene a few years ago with expectations that every Orthodox rov fall in line with it "or else","
rONI: this is rap's main concern THAT TROPER'S IDEA OF "UNIVERSAL STANDARDS OF GEUT" BE ADOPTED AND HIS PAST CONVERSIONS WITH BOMZER BE DISQULAFIED! TOO LATE! MANY RABBIS INCLUDING RAV SOLOVEITCHIK AND BURSTEIN HAVE UNDERSTOOD THE CONCERN AND SO HAVE ALL THE HUNDREDS WHO ATTEND AND PARTICIPATE WITH EJF! YOU SHOULD HAVE REFRAINED YEARS AGOFROM SENDING $$$ZONAH MONEY TO BOMZER AND SHARE THAT WITH HIM; YOU WOULD HAVE HAD HIM PART OF THE ORGANIZATION; BUT YOU COULD NOT WITHOLHD THE TEMPTATION NOW RABBI S. AND B. HAVE TO DO THE DIRTY JOB OF REQURESTING THAT RABBONIM SHOULD NOT BE MESSADER KIDDUSHIN TO BOMZER'S CONVERTS!
RAP:"and now it's being revealed as a hypocritical, conniving, manipulative and self-aggrandizing scheme designed to lure in limitless amounts of gentiles into Judaism and crown Tropper as the king of the Jews in megalomaniacal fashion'.
Roni: ANIMALISITC AND CRUDE AND IRRTIONAL WORDS OF HATE FEROM A PASSIONATE HATER OF TROPPER AND LACK OF ANY DERECH ERTS AND MENTCHLICHKEYT!
"My questions were the following:
1) The extant of his involvement with EJF/Tropper
2) His endorsement/support of EJF/Tropper
3) Conversion as an option for intermarrieds
4) The Bomzer letter."
RaP: Excellent questions all. the next time you see him, asking him why, based on the scandals involving EJF, such as with Guma Aguiar being allowed to be at the EJF controls for so long as co-chairman, the misuse of a Hebrew letter (yet to be made public) that he never knew was going to be translated into English and denies seeing it, added to the rejection of the same letter by Rabbis Soloveitchik and Burstein why simply does he not wash his hands once and for all of Tropper, denounce him for the trouble-maker that he is,"
rONI: i'll give you the answer!
Because (despite the disagreemnents with him) he does not see Tropper the evil man as he sees bomzer! While he may distance himself from him, he will not completely remove his association with him, from something he endorsed in the past and even now ENDORSED HIS KIRUV ACITVITIES! and he will not see his activities worse than BOmzer whom he PASSELS HIS GERUSSEN BASED ON THE PERSON WHO IS MEGAYER!
And obviously, all theletters of Rav Strnbuch apply much stronger to Bomzer, as Rav Sternbuch himself rules in his TEshuvot that a BD that often covnerts insincere converts are ipso facto passul even when convert a sincere covnert as he rules so in Chelek 4 teshuva 230! He does not accept the "lenient approach". His letters to Tropper are there becauseof the concern he has that they may deenerate into BOmzer's style conversions! Anyone invoking Badatz here and holding unto Bomzer a sa "lenient apporach" is an hypochrite from the higest degree and showes and demonstrate that he is fighting an animalisitc personal fight against tropper and not fighting for the truth!
"The following are his answers."
RaP: Indeed. And they must be viewed and understood as about as close to an official response from Rav Eisenstein can be, short of him issuing a truly genuine letter tha can be PROVEN to come from him.
"1) R' Eisenstein said that he had only ever been minimally involved with EJF/Tropper."
RaP: This is truly amazing because from poster Roni/Tropper it was claimed that Rav Eisenstein was involved with Tropper every step of the way when EJF set up a network of so-called affiliated "approved" batei din.
So if this is Rav Eisenstein's word against what poster Roni/Tropper has stated adamantly that Rav Eisenstein was still very tight with them as he had always been. Therefore, yet again, poster Roni/Tropper is revealed to be a liar (not as a curse word but as an accurate description of his words not jiving with Rav Eisenstein's.)
Roni: Does NOT change the content of the issue! A "minimal" involvement with an organization that is beetzem paassul is a stira mineh ubeh (a contradiction in terms)! Obviously Rav Eisenetin ENDORSED TO mEKLUBAL THAT HE WAS NOT (ENDORSED IIT MINIMALLY;() BUT THAT HE IS AN ACTIVE PARTIPANT IN SOME OF THEIR KIRUV ACITVITIES!
"That he attended a few of their events, in large part to express the views of himself and MaRan Eliashiv."
RaP: Indeed he did, as when he told the Modern Orthodox rabbis that those dayanim who wore colored shirts and jackets and/or held views that world was older than 6000 literal years could not sit as dayanim for conversions. This causesd and uproar and Tropper tried to calm the anger of Rav Hershel Shachter and the RCA rabbis who withdrew and regrettted any involvement with EJF since. At least they saw the light and even though they are obviously still Modern Orthodox rabbis, they do not have to deal with and keep on explaining away all of Tropper's traps and troubles that he threw their way'.
roNI: aND OBCVIOUSLY rap ATTEMPTS TO DELIGITIMIZE RAV EISENSTREIN OTHE PARTICIPATIONS IN THE ORGANIZATION NA THAT IS: A) HIS ENDORSING THE KIRUV ACITIVITES B) THE ACCEPTANCE OF "UNIVERSAL STANDARDS OF GERUT" WHEREBY THE HUNDREDS OF PARTICIPANTS AGREDED UPON (AS STATED AND CLARFIIED BY R. S. AND B.) THAT RAV ELYASHIV DISQUALIFIES RABBIS LIKE BOMZER FROM BEING KOSHER DAYANIM!
wHETHER OR NOT "It was the first public indication that Rav Eisenstein was going to go in a different direction to Tropper"' DOES NOT TAKE AWAY FROM THE FACT THAT THE ORGANIZATION'S GOAL WAS TO AND IS TO PERSUADE THE RABBIS OF THE NEED TO "AVOID CONFUSION OVER IS ACCEPTED AS AJEW" THAT PEIOPLE LIKE RAP/BOMZER BRING INTO KLAL YISROEL!
RAP:" who was still palling around with Guma Aguiar and Guma's goyishe shiksa wife while Rav Eisenstein was roaming the world's intermarriage trouble spots confronting any batch of hypocritical conversions rabbis he came across,",
Roni: which PRIMARILY INCLUDES RABBIS LIKE BOMZER! AND MUCH WORSE! (as the many of these rabbis who signed on the letter against bomzer are participantsof the EJF),
RAP:": except Tropper of course, which took time, but is now coming into full public view as the result of the recent scandals with the Guma betrayal and the fake English anti-Bomzer letter that was forged by Tropper without any of the rabbis on it knowing about it".
RONI: On the contrary, now it comes to light the need for "universal standards of gerut" to accepted and to WARN ALL that messadrey kiddushin not messader kiddushin for a covnert by bomzer and the like to avoid confusio over who is accepted a a Jew. Something RAP and his colleagues were and are toiling so hard that it should not happen has not come to frution! and even Rabbis like S. and B. had to courageously fight off the terro thatpeople like RAp bvestow upon thme and they WARNED that all should bnot be messader kiddushin to those whose conversion is as such that will cause "confusion" if he accepted as Jewish! R. Tropper should and will be commended forthis.
And actually, as pointed out numerous times, in the wake of the Guma affair, Tropper comes out high and honest! He comes off as someone who does not succumb to money and $$$zonah; whereas Bomzer comes of as someone who seeks the shikssahs for a $$zonah gifts!
"Also on account that he believed that Rabbanim should show support for any Orthodox Kiruv organization."
RaP: These are just words of consolation and really not to the point".
Roni: The manipulator as his best! When R E. speaks of the kiruv acitivties of T and his participation with it they are called words of "consolation". YOU ARE LIAR AND MANIPULATOR!
aL YOUR ANIMALISITC WORDS OF TERROR AGAINST T ON THIS MATTER WITH gUMA, SHY AWAY BY THE ACCEPTANCEOF bOMZER OF THE $$$ZONAH TO COVNERT HIS FAKE CONVERT THAT IS not acceped intoklal yisroel! only bvecuase you needed another building!! you poinsoned klal yisroel with another shikssahin it's midst???
RAP"...those gentiles with the rabbis being blind-sided into enabling this global cockamamie scheme that the flew in the face of thousands of years of Jewish law and Halachic tradition as Rav Eisenstein notes below".
Roni: actually Rav Eisentein is personally involved in some of the cases there, as he testified to Mekubal where he seess those as "Kiruv acitvities"; whereas your endorsmwent of BOmzer where HE SEEKS ALL THOSE GENTILE SHIKSSAHS FOR THE $$4ZONAHMONEY and he shares it with you and your buddies that you DEFEND? you are hypochrite and aliar!
"He acknowledged that he was a part of their Rabbinic board, but reiterated that it was only for purposes of expressing and advocating the views of R' Eliashiv."
RaP: Ok, so one can assume that he also expressed objections from Rav Eliashiv to Tropper about Tropper's submission to the Kaplan/Guma Evangelical Christian-originated desire to proselytize to millions of gentiles hitched to Jews that noone had ever done and that poster Roni/Tropper claimed was an ever so simple "formula" of better to do a minor sin to save the intermarried Jews of a grievous sin, such as was rejected as an opening strategy by HaRav Eliashiv, shilta - Kiruv of intermarried couples (July 18, 2008) (original document) where ",
Roni: perhaps but that did NOT STOP HIM FROM PARTICIPATING IN THAT ORGANIZATION WHERE HE FOUND CASESOF KIRUV, WHICH IN ESSENCE MEANS THAT MANY OF THE COVNERSIONS ARE VIEWED BY RAC EISENSTEIN AS KIRUV ACTIVITIES!
rAp:"Rav Efrati clearly states conveying Rav Eliashiv's view that: "Rav Eliashiv, shlita has repeatedly said that those living as intermarried couples cut themselves off from the Jewish people. Furthermore he holds that we are obligated to distance ourselves from them and their society and to cut off all connection with them" as well!"
rONI: lie! this letter does not talk directly to cases of TINOK SHENISHBAH! IN fact Rav Eisenstein endorses and participated in single casesof Ejf where he certainly allows the door not be shut as thisletteer of Rav Efrati suggests! because the letter by Rav Efrati does NOT deal directly with cases of tinok shenishbah. While RE objects to proseltyzation he endorses kiruv to them (if they come to the organization) and the letter by Re shunning these opening of the door cannot and do not talk about tinok shenishbah.
But it is obvious tht RAP is an hypochritre and liar for he and Bomzer actively seek to covnert those shikassah FOR MARRIAGE WHERE THEY WOULD NTO LIVE A LIFE BY SHULCHAN ARUCH HOW CAN HE REPUDIATE TROPPER FOR CONVERTING THEM WHEN THEY WILL KEEP TORAH AND MITZVOT?!?
"2) He said that he could only offer blanket endorsement to EJF/Tropper's Kiruv activities, as anything organiztion that tries to bring Jews back to Judaism should recieve full support from Rabbanim."
RaP: Sure, anybody could do that, that's the easy part and most people agree that Tropper should head back to Monsey and stick to his old job in his Kol Yaakov yeshiva, but that's not the issue under discussion. The main point here is EJF and Tropper's controversial performances running around visiting conversions batei din, and whether Rav Eisenstein can give his full endorsement to it and all he can say is that "I like Tropper as a kiruv rabbi with Jews presumably (hopefully), but as for anything else, like trying to mekarev goyim hitched to Jews and making programs for that, count me out, it ain't happening."
ROni: Rap is liar and manipulator! RE's was asked by mekubal about RE's acitvities in the EJF NOT IN THE KOL YEHUDAH YESHIVA! It is about that RE answered that his involvement were about his kiruv acigtvites, which means that RE sees some of his acitvities at EJF as PERMISSIBLE MITZVAH KIRUV ACTIVITIES!
"He then said that as far as their conversions that it would have to case by case."
RaP: Good morning America. Tropper's false attitude of the holier than thou EJF conversion is revealed to be the hollow and shallow sham that it always was as it's finally revealed that Tropper is no different to Bomzer or any other Orthodox rabbi doing conversions",
rONI: lies and lies and lies! i know for a fact that re passels r bomzer's gerut and many other rabbonim's gerut by being "bomzer" gerut! Just because he may question the gerut of the higest rabbi, does mean that he legitimizes the gerut of someone who converted many insincerepeople very often. Actaullu Rap is being a liar andmanipulator here, for RABBIS S AND B HAVE CLEARLY STATED IN THEIR LETTER THAT RAV ELYASHIV does not accept even SINCERE GERIM WHENN THEY WER PFORM BY A BD THAT OFTEN MAKES INSINCERE GERIM! IT IS BLACK AND WHITE IN THE LETTER! RAV ESISENSTEIN WOUILD NOT HOLD OTHERSIE! (AND THIS IS IN ADDITION TO WHAT I KNOW FOR A FACT THE POISITIONS OF RE).
rap:"Now if Rabbi Eisenstein could have only told that to Rav Sherman who brutally ruled against Rav Drukman's conversions and did not state the accepted and correct Halachic thing that it must be done on a case by case basis Rav Eisenstein will have closed the circle."
rap: you are a liar! RAV eISENSTEIN CLEARLY SUPPORTED rav sherman! you are a brutal dishonest man! you would make every lie to score points! RAv Eisenstein is the person who railed against those who attacked Rav Sherman! He supports Rav sherman ALL THE WAY!
"He said that he could only offer blanket endorsement to those who have Semicha from him, or whose B"D follow unswervingly the views of Maran Eliashiv."
RaP: The implication being that Tropper, for all his blowing of the "Rav Eliashiv trumpet" in his own favor is now proven to be a liar again because Rav Eisenstein is clearly saying that Tropper cannot be taken as someone who speaks for or abides by or acts on behalf of Rav Eliashiv's ways in any ways and that Tropper's claims about this are therefore false and that basically he has no right even to invoke the name of Rav Eliashiv since Rav Eliashiv's people would never back him up!
roNI: aLL THE FARDREY KOPS OF THE KRUMMER WOULD NOT EASE THE FACT THAT WHILE HE DOES NOT GIVE "BLABNKET ENDORSMENT" DO THOSE WHO DID NOT RECEIVE HIS SMICHA he nevertheless edorses AND pafrticipates ATHT EKIRUV ACTIVITIES OF THE ejf!
"3) Concerning the non-Jewish spouse of an intermarried couple, he said that it is impossible to say that they should for sure be converted."
RaP: This goes against every single thing that poster Roni/Tropper has been blasting at everyone on this blog who come within an inch of his space.
rONI: tyou are a liar and manipulator. I never claimed that every single spouse should for sure be converted! you shoteh and liar, i said that in idea in principlethere should be room to accept every single tinok shenishbah spouse of a convertQ! (and not those who do not follow torah andm mitzvotas you and bomzer perform!).
RAP:"Rav Eisenstein's view is CLEARLY like the one cited above from Rav Eliashiv, that one does not start out with a strategy of open arms to welcome every last gentile with a Jewish connection back to Judaism".
ROni: andi t is even MORE CLEAR THAT A BD THAT OFTEN CONVERTS INSINCERE CONVERTS HAVE THEIR STAUS AS BD AUTOMATICALLY PASSUL AS STATED BY RAV SOLOVEITCHIK AND BURSTEIN AS THE OPINION OF RAV ELYASHIV AND THIS IS WHAT RAV EISENSTEIN HAS SAID ALL ALNOG FOR THE LAST DECADE!
That is somethin
aND CERTAINLY raP AND boMZER SHOULD STOP THEIR CONVERTING ALL THOUSANDS OF SHIKSSAHS THAT THEY HAVE CONVERTED AND LEAVE IP UP TO MOSHIACH GTO FIX THE PROBLEMS!
"He said in a situation where the Jewish spouse was unknoweledgable of his/her Judaism at the time of the marriage and thus a tinok hanishba mamash, he said the door should not be shut and that way should be eased as it would undoubtedly help the Jew return to Judaism. However, in a case where the Jewish spouse was, however minimally aware of their Judaism and the problems of intermarriage, that there needed to be overwhelming reason from another direction in order to allow a conversion. He said that it would ultimately have to be case by case, like any other conversion."
RaP: Here Rav Eisenstein breaks new ground by saying that only Jews who are a "tinok shenishba" gets to have their gentile partner considerd for conversion but if they know a little alef bais and eat some knaidlach on Pesach they are out. This is a tough way to set up the situation. Who decides on how little one needs to know before accepting them into conversion programs? And what about the known klal by the Chazon Ish that EVERYONE in modern times, including even the frum, are regarded as "tinokos shenishbu" and not just only those who know nothing about Yiddishkeit. At any rate, why not just reject all of them, period? Maybe someone wth just a little Jewish knowledge will turn out to be a better Jewish partner to the convert he's hitched to in the end? This is a complex discussion for all rabbis who do conversions to deal with and there is no one formula that will hold and work for all, but at least Rav Eisenstein is expressing some sort of idea for us to chew on"
RONI: COHCHOM FUN DER MAH NISHTANOH1 THISI S THE EJF'S POSITION ALL ALLNOG, THEY DECIDE TO COVNERT PRIMARILY ALL THOSE WHO ARE SPOUSESOF TINOK SHENISHBAH AND FOR THIS WE RABBONIM WHICH SHULCHANORUCH STTES THAT "LEFI REOS EYNEY HADAYON" THEY CAN BE LENIENT IN CERTAIN SITUATIONS AND THISIS THE EJF'S GOAL. BUIT BOMZER AND RAPS GOALIS TO CONVERT ALL SHIKSSAHS THROUGH INNSINCERE CONVERSION IF $$$NEEEDED!
"He also stated that under no circumstances should they be sought out, as that would overturn thousands of years of tradition.
RaP: ARE YOU LISTENING poster Roni/Tropper, this means NO PROSELYTIZING and certainly take back your silly krummer sevoras you plastered all over this blog to say the opposite thing that Rav Eisenstein states loud and clear, and in case you don't get it, he is saying: Under no circumstances should ANY potential converts be sought out, as that would overturn thousands of years of tradition".
rONI: aER you rap listening? when you send a shikssah to Bomzer to convert and are a partner to him, you are NOT ALLOWED TO DO IT! you are not allowed to encourage someone to covndert in that fashion!@ HOw muich more so, in the caseof Jamie Aguiar where RAv Eisnstein rails against Bomzer's evil machinations! You rap and your firends did a tremndous chilul hashem by sending Jamie to bomzer to convert where she does not keep shabbos and is mechalle shabbos befarhessya!
But, leaving this aside: let us say that RE's position is not in sync with Tropper on this issue. It does not mwean that Rav Reuven Feinstein agrees witrh RE! And as long as he did not clarify that he disagrees with Tropper on this and he is a participant with Tropper in his organiation we can rest on the chazakah that is somewhat in agreement with Tropper's idea!
and the worse kumkeit by mr krrom is: that he attacks like an animal the averaof prosetyizing even by a tinok shenishbah but ENDORSES A FAKE CONVERSION STATING THAT THIS IS A "LENIENT APPROACH"! THIS GET'S AN a+++ FOR KRUMKEYT!
wITH REGARDS TO THE LETTER: BARUCH HASHEM WE HAVE THE LETTER WRITEN BY LOTS OF RABBONIM AND EVEN AFTER THE TERRO THAT RAP AND HIS ENABLERS AND COLLEAGUES HAVE PERFORMED FOR THE PAST MONTGH THEY COULD NOT COME WITH A COMPLETE RETRACTION BY ANY OF THE SIGNATORIES! THE CLARIFICATION LETTER OF R. SOLOVETICHIK AND BURSTEN WERE THE GREATEST SERVICE DONE BY RAP WHERE EVERYONE SEES THAT RABBI BOMZER'S COVNERSIOBNS SHOULD NOT BE MESSADER KIDDUSHIN UNLESS THEY RECOVNERT AND FOR THIS "DAYENU"!!!
Their statment of addmission tht Rav ELyashiv's camp rejects the conversionsperformed by Bd often perform insincere conversions even when they are sincere is a great accomplishment that all toil was wothwhilwe for this accomplishment!
The "REd herring" of RAP to atttck Tropper is clearly come to full light that he is motivated to attack him for raising universal halachik standards as Rabbi S and B clarifiy! And clearly puts us all in gears that we all work in the future towards not sending candidates to BD who often make insincere conversions.
No ammount of terror will erase the veracity of the letter and it's content! For aqny retraction by Rav Eisenstein to have any validity we muist have a written sttatement by him for the public! And I conclude again by askibng MEkubal: Have you told him that you were giving this report back to the public? In any event, the letter is here, most of them did not succumb gto even "clarify" in writing what they wrote, some "clarified" and made the point loud and clear! and Rabbi Eisnstein, did not offer any public writing to the public to know wha the really feels it belongs to the "real" world when he states things out of Bd (as mevuar in SO that things statd out of BD dod not carry the weight as things said in BD and things said in private do not carry the weight of things writtn). and certainly the maachinagtionso of the manipulator andliar FRAP would not distort the known truth that RAv ELyashiv and ?Eisenstein and gthe Haredi Camp and half the MO do not accept a dayayan who very often performs passule convesions. The Rabbi becomes possul for ALL covnersuions! and thereofre instead of him trying to attack animalistically and with terror Tropper let him desist from thisd and work hard to persuade R. Bozmer not do anymore Gerut (in the aspt he used to saome good but now that the enbalbers have givn him the past decade oftren $$$ and insincere covnerts they have ruined his life); let them desits from all thse activitea and help Rabbis S and B and others to build a "universal standard of gerut" that will remove all fake geerim and goyim from klal yisroel!!!!
While it is almost pointless to enter into any sort of rational cultured dialogue with poster Roni/Tropper because he proves himself to be the arch-stonewaller and will never relent in admitting to the truth even if it hits him in the face and knocks him out, there are still a few points he makes worth noting, in between droning on and on with the old bubba meises and screaming hysterics fit for a maniac. See my comments starting with "RaP":
ReplyDelete"and now to the head spinmaster"
RaP: Only someone as adept as poster Roni/Tropper could come up with such a backhanded compliment since he is the master spinmeister himself as is evident by reading his comments above as he spins comments into things that were never meant, such as twisting Rav Eisenstein's praise of kiruv with Jews and obviously NOT related to anything to do with EJF affairs into a seeming "endorsement" and "allowence" for Tropper and EJF to do the forbidden kiruv to gentiles that has been the bone of contention all along between Rabbi Tropper and Rabbi Eidensohn, with Tropper alleging he has Rav Reuven Feinstein's support (even tho Rav Reuven Feinstein REFUSES to give even a one line written haskoma) and in the other corner is Rabbi Eidensohn who began this debate with requests from Rabbi Tropper to provide written (NOT FORGED, please !!!!) haskomas and in turn Rav Eidensohn was able to back up his position with (REAL AND PROVEN)official letters from Rav Shternbuch and not one but two official letters from the BADATS, including the signature of the Ga'avad, in Yerushalayim, admonishing Rabbi Tropper (and not addressed to Rabbi Bomzer as poster Roni/Tropper keeps on twisting it as he twists everything) with warnings to rabbis to stay away from Rabbi Tropper and EJF.
That is clear and obvious from the letters themselves that DO NOT HAVE FORGED SIGNATURES unlike poster Roni/Tropper who has resorted to the despicable act of forging the signatures on the English language anti-Bomzer letter that will now lead to Tropper's final downfall and humiliation and it has nothing to do with anyone's "terror" but Tropper's own dishonesty as poster Mekubal has reported that Rav Eisenstein did NOT sign that letter, and neither did Rabbis Soloveitchik and Burstein, and none did, just Tropper the crooked forger and manipulator went on a forging spree in his irrational hate of another rabbi that stood in his way.
Is this the way Yiddishkeit now works in the 21st century that supposed rabbis like Tropper will resort to forgery and deceit even abusing nine of his rabbinic friends and forge a letter on a letter-head of the Va'ad HaOlami that he does not head, just to send it in to this blog and try to trick the readership? That is about the lowest of the low that anyone could do, but to Tropper it's all in a day's work of destroying his enemeies by any means. Welcome to the age of Machiavelli that Tropper epitomises.
"and manipulator"
RaP: Good joke! Just take a look at how you forged a letter that even Rav Eisenstein doesn't know about that uses his letter-head and stationary without his knowledge. Shame on you, little hypocrite!
"the kasherer of BOmzer"
RaP: Nope. I never met the guy. And he and Tropper deserve each other for getting into the mud of the conversions business!
"and Jamie Aguiar's conversion!"
RaP: An even better joke, and this coming from a guy who took tens of millions of dollars from Jamie Aguiar's husband for his Kol Yaakov yeshiva/Horizons and buddied around with them for years not telling anyone that Guma's gal Jamie was not even interested in EJF conversions while Tropper took tens of millions of dollars from the Lillian Jean Kaplan Foundation that Guma still controls, and now when Guma and Jmaie have dumped Tropper he points fingers at Bomzer and blames anonymous posters who never saw a penny unlike Tropper who got tens of millions out of Guma and Jamie for years. Yes again the little hypcrite at work in full public view!
"Poster Mekubal reports verbatim from Rav Nochum Eisenstein who denies ever seeing or signing the English anti-Bomzer letter and promises an investigation".
Whatever a person states to a laymen, to be said chutz lebeys din is irrelevant."
RaP: More Purim-Toireh from the house of Tropper's traps. So now even Rav Eisenstein can be dumped when it's clear he is denouncing Tropper's shenanigans. Is every last word of this blog only coming from a "bais din"? What a little hypocrite when the fake letter against Bomzer came from a "P. O. Box" and not from ANY bais din and it was forged yet, and here we have a report from someone who the owner of the blog TRUSTS who states that he spoke with Rav Eisenstein that naturally throws poster Roni/Tropper into a real panic and for good reason, he will be definitively caught out for the liar, fraud and forger that he has proven himself to be!
"Whatever a person says to people wanting to terrorize him (in the internet and then back to him) is irrelevant, veloy osseh dibur sheloy to RAP (via "mekubal") maasseh."
RaP: More good Purim Teireh from a krummer kop and talmid chochem shoiteh who wouldn't know what emes is even if he had gillui Eliyahu! Does anybody REALLY think that Rav Eisenstein (or Rabbis Soloveitchik or Burstein) are being "terrorized" in any way by the goings on on this or any blog, or that Rav Eisenstein got "terrorized" by poster Mekubal who went on a social basis to see Rav Eisenstein because evidently he has that close enough of a relationship with him?
Just look at all the language that poster Roni/Tropper uses and decide who is more likely to be the real "terrorist" around here? It's a no-brainer, as poster Roni/Tropper grasps at any straws to save himself from drowning in the sea of lies, fraud and now PROVEN forgery.
"Now, let's to go the machinations"
RaP: Noch a vits, as the jokes keep coming strong and heavy now, when by now it's as clear as daylight who's the one that does all the machinations and provides forged documents with forged signatures and then wants to be "believed" the little hypocrite himself!
"and what really matters as to the CONTENT OF THE LETTER THAT DISQUALIFY BOMZER AS A DAYAN FOR GERUT"
RaP: Sorry, no matter how bad Bomzer may be, but no court or Basi Din would accept PROVEN forged documents with forged signatures as proof or eidus. But our own forger and krummer talmid chochem full of rare Purim Towrah now wants to sound choshuv, the little hypocrite!
"Rav Eisenstein denounces ANY AND ALL efforts at proselytization and denies that he has a close connection to Tropper/EJF. MORE BAD NEWS FOR EJF AND TROPPER AS THEY ISOLATED and ARE NOW PROVEN FORGERS, FRAUDS AND LIARS".
roNI: lies and lies! He denies giving approval for prosetyzation;"
RaP: Well, at least it's an ADMISSION FOR THE FIRST TIME that poster Roni/Tropper ADMITS in full public view that Rav Eisenstein "denies giving approval for prosetyzation" which until now we were told Tropper and Rav Eisenstein were like two peas in a pod about everything which they are now not and it took a forged letter with forged signatures to get Rav Eisenstein to make it clear that he and Tropper/EJF have parted ways and all that remains is mopping up.
"but he clearly stated that he is A PARCTICIPANT IN THE KIRUV ACTIVITIES OF THE ORGANIZATION!"
RaP: You know, for a guy who screams about krumkeit all the time, right here is a display of not just your krumkeit but of your shakronus. Any idiot who reads Rav Eisenstein's words can see that Rav Eisentsien is being nice. He is saying, sure he supports all kiruv and the conventional kiruv that Tropper used to do. But Tropper has by now mixed up kiruv to genuine Jews with "kiruv" to gentiles (proselytization) and with all the money that Guma and uncle Tom Kaplan pumped into his bloodstrem that Tropper is begeder "sh'eino yodeah lish'ol" and now does not know the difference between "arur Homon and boruch Mordechai" and he thinks that if someone says nice things about kiruv it is "automatically" a krumme "heter" for EJF's agenda to "reach out" to all the gentiles hitched to Jews that it can lay its hands on. The little hypocrite is also a little drunk with Guma/Kaplan $$$$power and is a little delusionald and a big megalomaniac. Oh and let's not forget he is a big forger and fraud.
"b) that the organization does some "kiruv" by THE *CONVERSIONS* THAT IT MAKES,"
RaP: More ultra-krumkeit from the ultra-krummer and Talmid Chochem shoiteh himself as he now calls and equates the holy field of kiruv rechokim with "conversions" of goyim to Judaism because in his despeartion he wants to twist what Rav Eisenstein NEVER said NOR meant, by taking a very GENERAL praise of straight kiruv rechokim and twisting it into a pretzel that he sees proselytizations to gentiles as the same as doing regular kiruv rechokim to Halachic Jews. This is what people do when they are in a panic and trapped in a corner they have painted themseelves into, they will lie, but the right thing would be to admit to the truth, something the little liar and forger could never do!
"FOR ejf IS PRIMARILY A CONVERSION ORGANIZATRION, WHICH MEANS THAT frAV eISENSTEIN HOLDS THAT MANY OF THE ejF'S DOINGS FALL UNDER KOSHER KIRUV AND NOT LIKE YOU AND OTHER MANIPULATORS HAVE CONTENDED!"
RaP: It must be that Choidesh Adar is in the air that all this Peerim Toiyrah is now being excreted. What kind of hallucination is this to say that Rav Eisenstein views EJF's controversial work as "kosher kiruv" when he has said NOTHING of ths sort? But for one who can forge documents with ease and pass them along to be posted online what are a few words that can easily be scrambled as if they were mere scrabble-game letters to be reconstructed in any way to score krumme points for your ever-shrinking team of one, make it two, Tropper$$&$$Kaplan. The little liar and fraudster is kind enough to show us how he does it. Thank you for this display of twisting words and interpreting them in ways they were never said or meant!
"Poster Roni/Tropper has lost almost his last shred of credibility following on the heels of:
a) The revelations of the Guma Aguiar scandal, that Guma was funding and co-head of EJF while living with a gentile woman who refused to convert via EJF".
rONI: yOU BRING THIS UP AGAIN AND i WILL BRING UP AGAIN, THAT your/bomzer credibility HJAVE BEENS HREDED TO PIECES BY THIS CONVERSION! TROPPER'S CREDIBILITY WAS RAISED BY HIS REFUSAL TO COVNERT FOR $$$NAN ZONAH MONEY!"
RaP: Goodness gracious, while Tropper was filling his belly with $$$$Guma's tens of millions it was kosher veyosher but when Guma says bye-bye Tropper and hello world Tropper gets a fit of jealousy.
Well the little hypocrite now proves that he is also the big $$$$greedy$$$$ one and sheds real crocodile tears that he lost Guma's$$$$ money and now blames Bomzer for sticking his hand into the same till. The little hyocrite is also in need of mucho dolares senor, can you spare a million or ten $,$$$,$$$ and I will be your friend and rename my Kol Yaakov yeshiva for your dead Brazilian grandmother too, no matter of she was an apostate, he says.
"b) That the letter condemning Rabbi Bomzer was recanted by Rabbis Moshe Soloveitchik & Naphtoli Burstein".
ROni: it was NOT recantred; it was CLARIFIED AND BARUCH HASHEM the clarifcation makes it quite clear that Bomzer' covnerts should not be "messadered kiddushin" by any rov!"
RaP: The great shakran and krummer lamdan is a bad lawyer and cannot read English. The mere fact that rabbis were forced to write a second letter to "clarify" a first one that they NEVER even signed in the first place is pretty sick and pathetic. How about you come up with the original Hebrew one and we can all see what that says and compare it with the one you forged in English and let everyone decide what they said.
Rabbis Soloveitchik and Burstein at least showed some mercy for Tropper but it's very clear from their words in the "clarification" that they did not sign the forged English letter and that you are just proving yourself to be a high-class manipulator of them as you speak for them when they never asked you to.
"c) That now, as reported here first hand by poster Mekubal, the SHOCKING news from Rav Eisenstein that he DENIES ever seeing ANY English letter against Rabbi Bomzer,"
Roni: which does not minimize the shocking letter of clarification by R. Solovetichik and Burstein and other Rabbis who signed the letter and certainly anyone who knows Rabbi Eisenstein knows what he holds of Rabbi Bomzer and what status of "latzur al pi tzoolichito" the certficates of Bomzer have in his eyes!"
RaP: The thing that's really shocking here is that you are a proven liar and forger and you have the audacity to still be mefalpel based on your shekarim. The little liar is also suffering from fixation on a perceived enemy. As I have stated in the past, Bomzer may be bad, but Tropper is worse! How do you have the chutzpa to darshen away about Rav Eisenstein's words when you have been proven to be a forger and a liar of his words? This is a sociopath at work.
No doubt we have not heard the last from Rabbis Soloveitchik and and Burstein when the truly shocking awareneess sets in that they, with all the other signatories, have ALL been taken for the ride of their lives by the forger and fraud Tropper who set up a forged document online on this blog to trip up an enemy of his whom they personally would never pursue in such a manner. But they are in the normal category while unfortunately they are dealing with an arch-liar and crook as one of their co-horts. It will not be pleasant when all this is sorted out and the little hypocrite, liar and forger is finally put in his place (maybe in jail for ilegally forging signatures that's a punishable offense in most countries.)
"added to his downsizing of his relationship with Rabbi Tropper and EJF, amounts to a third and deadly strike against the Tropper/Kaplan/EJF our-way-or-the-highway conversions regime".
ROni: Actaully we have ADDED a voice that states tyhat he is an ACTIVE PARTICIPATANT IN SOME OF EJF'S ACTIVITIES! AND HE CALLS THE "KIRUV"!"
RaP: Poor poster Roni/Tropper, kedarko shelo bakodesh, comes up with a boich sevora that because someone said a nice word about Tropper personally in the course of tearing him to shreds that forget about the main thrust of what that person said but just extract the grain of praise and turn it into some sort of grandiose "haskoma" when it was just a nice little word and not meant as an endorsement or clarification of anything EJF does. The little hypocrite is also a little desperate and will twist any little fraction of personal praise into a "haskoma" no wonder he thinks that when rabbis shows up at a EJF concert it's also a "haskoma" simply because in poster Roni/Tropper's twisted mind things are all jumbled up to be used as self-serving "haskomas" when they are clearly not.
"rONI: a lie1 it comes as rap the crude attacker of tropper had the incessant PERSONAL ANIMALISTIC ATTACKS UPON R TROPPER, HAVING CONSTANT INSULTS AT MANY RABBIS, LIKE RAV WOSNER, RAV REUVEN FEINSTEIN AND ON He could not produce the most comon mentschlichkeyt towards the person R. Tropper and his often veiled apologetics about the kiruv by rav tropper were followed and and anticuipated with vicous, malicious, animalistic ifrrational shmootz at Rabb i Tropper."
RaP: This is so pathetic. The pot calling the kettle black. The poor little hypocrite and forger is also a little thin-skinned as he throws in everything including the kitchen sink in his defense. The subject here is Rav Eisenstein's words and not Rav Wosner or anyone else. By the way, did Tropper run to Rav Wosner because he knew full well that he had fallen out of grace with Rav Eisenstein and that he (Tropper) was no longer welcome at Rav Eliashiv's place so he runs hither and thither and goes to Bnai Brak to get views about true kiruv from Rav Wosner?
As for Rav Reuven Feinstein he is Tropper's last line of defense, and once Tom Kaplan stops giving money that line of defense will disappear as well and once and for all Tropper will stand naked in the dock and have to answer to all the destruction, forgery and terror he has caused.
"and was then sent letters from Rav Shternbuch and from the BADATS to stop his proselytizion all over the world, and that waqs also circulated to many rabbinic Recipients and it created Publicity on this blog and in rabbinic circles":
Roni: but they were done with utmost disrespect and malicious hatred and combined with many LIES! AS HE DOES RIGHT NOW IN THIS POST!"
RaP: Can't you halt kop you krummer shoiteh? It was Rav Eidensohn, Rav Shternbuch alone and the SEVEN dayonim on the BADATS that did this, they sent out the letters and did the publicity. The little hypocrite is also very selective and tries to blame others for things they did not do that he dislikes, and since poster/Roni very much dislikes Rabbi Eidensohn and Rabbi Shternbuch and the BADATS but he cannot use the same language against them that he uses against his other enemies, he then tries to slide down a few notches and see who else he can aim his assaults on who may be connected to them in his imagination, but he only reveals how desperate he is by that.
"yet he ignored them as long as he had the Richy Rich wunderkind Guma Aguiar who was controlling the Lillian Jean Kaplan Foundation pumping in millions of dollars to Tropper Horizon/Kol Yaakov yeshiva and for the cockamamie EJF hare-brained scheme of reaching out to the world gentiles not just hitched to Jews but also to billions who might have an ounce of Jewish ancestry going back thousands of years".
rONI: hERE WE GO AGAIN. YOUR LANGUAGE IS HOLY MOLLY! WHEN RA EISENTEIN SAYS THAT THE EJF DOES KIRUV ACITVITES!"
RaP: "The EJF does kiruv activities"??????? Yohohohohohohoho! Purim is coming!!!!!!
"(WHILE HE DISAGRESS WITH THEIR PROSELTYZATION TECHNIQUES"
RaP: You betcha he disagrees!! And at least you admit to it now!! Thank you for being honest for the first now in this post!!
"HE STILL IS A PARTICIPANT OF SOME OF THEIR "KIRUV" ACITVITIES."
RaP: "HE STILL IS" -- is he really still and it is all over forever!!! "A PARTICIPANT OF SOME OF" -- like what??? Like he's angry at you as per the above post from Mekubal after Mekubal visited him and told him how you forged his signature on his letterhead, are these the "activities" you mean? "THEIR "KIRUV" ACTIVITIES" -- yohohohohohohohohoho, Purim has come early to poster Roni as he lies and twists and thinks noone can notice that he's already holding by "ad delo yada" nebech!
"It's hardly only a "ockmamie hare-brained scheme" to reach out to gentiles;"
RaP: Say what? Are you a Christian Evangelical or something? You are beginning to sound clearly like one mister whoever you are!
"otherwise Rav Eisentein would have NOTHING OF KIRUV TO DO IN THAT ORGANIZATION!"
RaP: And now, mostly because of that point as well as others, he is divorced from it. You may as well drop his name from the EJF website of rabbis. It will be a relief to a lot of Bnai Torah you can be assured.
"in any event, why is your animalistic style anymore legitiamte than your E$$$NAN ZONAH ANIMAL ACITIVITES THAT YOU ARE PARTNER TO AND SUPPORT?"
RaP: The little hypocrite who took tens of millions from Guma$$$$Aguira calls someone else greedy. Wow! For the record, I have no association with Bomzer, but he is entitled to a fair trial in a din Torah if you must but not to summary execution with forged documents by a liar and fraud like you/Tropper.
Roni: I will stop here and ask a question: to Mekubal: did *you* tell Rav Eisenstein that your conversations would be posted IN PUBLIC?
RaP: What do you think shoiteh? Do you think anyone like Mekubal seems to be would go against Rav Eisenstein? Such tipshus on your part to ask such a klotz kashye is amazing!
"SO THAT RAP CAN SAY THAT "HE HAS GIVEN YOU A GREEN LIGHT?"
RaP: What is it if not the greenest of green lights, you beheima gasa that forges documents and lies and puts rabbis to shame forcing them to clarify their words and look like idiots just so that you can have fun pursuing your favorite prey Bomzer? Get therapy!
"YOU RAP A LIAR AND A MANIPULATOR AND A SLEAZY PESON IMBBEBED WITH E$$$NAN ZONAH MONEY!!!"
RaP: Sure, and you are "only" a forger, a fraud and talmid chochem shoiteh who is so ibberklug that he forgets that the rest of the world also has brains and can see your hypocritical and childish attacks. Such a rachmonus on you, it's pathetic.
"Roni: One thing though Rav Eisenstein has given in favor of R. Tropper: He staetd to him that he actually participated and endorsed some of the activites of Ejfand that is the activites that realtre TO KIRUV."
"..despite Rav Eisenstein ENDORSMENT OF THE KIRUV ACITVIITES BY THE EJF!"
RaP: You repeat this on and on like a rachmonus case justifying himself and easing his conscience, and you can't let go of even one teeny-tiny compliment that he payed Tropper that he respects all kiruv organizations and it is you that fardreys the words to become a hocus pocus "haskoma" that EJF is now a newly renamed "kiruv" organization when it's far from it. But we know, all of uncle$$$$Tom's kesef ye'aver es hakol!
"He actually endorsed EJf for doing Kiruv!"
RaP: Pure lies from the big liar! And a funny one at that you tzudreiter. Yohohohohohoho, git em a trink un varft em arois!
"... EJF since it hit the scene a few years ago with expectations that every Orthodox rov fall in line with it "or else","
rONI: this is rap's main concern THAT TROPER'S IDEA OF "UNIVERSAL STANDARDS OF GEUT" BE ADOPTED"
RaP: Ideas that are promoted through forgeries and lies will never take hold with all of Klal Yisroel. For that you don't have to be a genius.
"AND HIS PAST CONVERSIONS WITH BOMZER BE DISQULAFIED! TOO LATE!"
RaP: Having had nothing to do with conversions poster Roni's/Tropper's rants and raves against me are wasted and only shows how he shoots first and asks questions later.
"MANY RABBIS INCLUDING RAV SOLOVEITCHIK AND BURSTEIN HAVE UNDERSTOOD THE CONCERN"
RaP: Tropper did not invent this concern. It was a cause that really got going ten years ago with Rav Kreiswerth who then recruited Rav Eisenstein and hooked it up with Rav Eliashiv. Tropper came along much later and latched on to it when he got big$$$$bucks from Kuplan and Guma and they all saw an opportunity for themsleves to get famous on the backs of other rabbis who had started dealing with it. So please stop being a liar yet again and give credit to where it's due and it aint to the $$$Tropper$$$/$$$Kaplan$$$/$$$Guma$$$ unholy delusional false messianic triumvirate that has now come undone and is falling apart at every second in breakneck speed. So that EJF can truly stand for Eternal Jewish FRAUD. It's not needed. There is Rav Elaishiv's Vaad HaOlami, there is the RCA and there is Agudas Yisroel.
"AND SO HAVE ALL THE HUNDREDS WHO ATTEND AND PARTICIPATE WITH EJF!"
RaP: That was then. This is now.
"YOU SHOULD HAVE REFRAINED YEARS AGOFROM SENDING $$$ZONAH MONEY TO BOMZER AND SHARE THAT WITH HIM; YOU WOULD HAVE HAD HIM PART OF THE ORGANIZATION; BUT YOU COULD NOT WITHOLHD THE TEMPTATION"
RaP: Sorry please stop expressing fantasies that never happened.
"NOW RABBI S. AND B. HAVE TO DO THE DIRTY JOB OF REQURESTING THAT RABBONIM SHOULD NOT BE MESSADER KIDDUSHIN TO BOMZER'S CONVERTS!"
RaP: This has to surely be one of the most chutzpadikke lines from poster Roni/Tropper. He fraudulently forges a letter and forges the signatures on it without permissions and then says that someone else has given some rabbis who are explaining themselves a "dirty job"?
The ONLY one pulling dirty jobs around here is you poster Roni/Tropper as you forged letters and signatures on the Vaad HaOlami letterhead, give yourself haskomas from things that were never meant that way, and accuse others of taking money when you happily took tens of millions of dollars from Guma and never told the world that Guma was living with a shiksa. Now that is real chutzpa don't you think? You little chutzpanyak!
"Roni: ANIMALISITC AND CRUDE AND IRRTIONAL WORDS OF HATE FEROM A PASSIONATE HATER OF TROPPER AND LACK OF ANY DERECH ERTS AND MENTCHLICHKEYT!"
RaP: The pot calling the kettle black yet again. Have you ever noticed the language you use against your enemies you little hypocrite?
"Excellent questions all. the next time you see him, asking him why, based on the scandals involving EJF, such as with Guma Aguiar being allowed to be at the EJF controls for so long as co-chairman, the misuse of a Hebrew letter (yet to be made public) that he never knew was going to be translated into English and denies seeing it, added to the rejection of the same letter by Rabbis Soloveitchik and Burstein why simply does he not wash his hands once and for all of Tropper, denounce him for the trouble-maker that he is,"
rONI: i'll give you the answer!
Because (despite the disagreemnents with him)"
RaP: NOTE this admission that THERE is a disagreement between Tropper and Rav Eisenstein. Thank you for this other drop of honsety, that you had denied for so long!
"he does not see Tropper the evil man as he sees bomzer!"
RaP: Umm, noone should be called "evil" because none of us is perfect. Tropper has had so many incidents in his life yet it would be wrong to call him "evil" something that it is best for Hashem to decide. According to the RAMBAM in Hilchos Teshuva each person must view themselves as a beinoni.
"While he may distance himself from him,"
RaP: THIRD time that the truth is admitted to, and thank you for doing so when you had so vehemently denied this in the past!
"he will not completely remove his association with him,"
RaP: Oh yeah? Looks like it just happened and you are such a choli nefesh that you don't even know that bad news is not good news. And poster Mekubal was the one who finally brought it to you on this very blog!
"from something he endorsed in the past"
RaP: Shoiteh, people get married and they also get divorced. Tropper should know that. He has married and divorced himself and he has arranged for the marriages and divorces of his people. People fall in with each other and then also split. Such is life!
You are stubborn and think that Rav Eisenstein is still "married" to you and EJF when he has just given you a get, it only needs to be delivred to you to end the procedure.
"and even now ENDORSED HIS KIRUV ACITVITIES!"
RaP: Again with the Purim Toireh, chabibi, it's over, he ain't endorsin' ya!
"and he will not see his activities worse than BOmzer"
RaP: Well at least you admit that Tropper has sunk so low in Rav Eisenstein's eyes that he (Rav Eisenstein) will henceforth "not see his activities worse that Bomzer" which is a pretty low level for Tropper and EJF to have sunk don't you think? But at least thank you for this other nugget of admitting that the situation is now very bad for Tropper and EJF that they are just one notch above Bomzer and not much more. Tropper and Bomzer are now in the same boat as far as Rav Eisenstein is concerned and as I have long commented Tropper and Bomzer deserve each other!
"whom he PASSELS HIS GERUSSEN BASED ON THE PERSON WHO IS MEGAYER!"
RaP: Yea, yea, yea, whatever.
"And obviously, all theletters of Rav Strnbuch apply much stronger to Bomzer,"
RaP: No they don't. The letters were written ach verak to Tropper you ditz head. The ultra-krummer at work.
"as Rav Sternbuch himself rules in his TEshuvot that a BD that often covnerts insincere converts are ipso facto passul even when convert a sincere covnert as he rules so in Chelek 4 teshuva 230! He does not accept the "lenient approach"."
RaP: Noone claimed that Rav Shternbuch had a lenient approach! And it was not the issue. But Rav Shternbuch and the BADATS did not issue letters against Rabbi Bomzer or anyone in the RCA because it's poshut that the RCA and the BADATS do not agree on conversions. At any rate it is so dumb of you to fardrey these things again. Rav Shternbuch and the BADATS wrote to Tropper and to the other rabbis about to come to EJF concerts not because they (the BADATS) agreed with Tropper about needing stronger conversions but because they DISAGREED with Tropper and EJF that it's ok to reach out to goyim hitched to Jews in large numbers and enable them to get strict conversions because that goes against the mesorah and it's a new innovation that must be stopped.
"His letters to Tropper are there becauseof the concern he has that they may deenerate into BOmzer's style conversions!"
RaP: Nope, wrong again. His letters to Tropper are because it is dangeours and wrong to reach out to masses of goyim hitched to Jews and offer them strong conversions when this is against the accepted mesorah and has never been done or allowed and it's therefore forbidden and must be stopped.
"Anyone invoking Badatz here and holding unto Bomzer a sa "lenient apporach" is an hypochrite from the higest degree and showes and demonstrate that he is fighting an animalisitc personal fight against tropper and not fighting for the truth!"
RaP: Such idiocy is amazing. It is only poster Roni/Tropper who introduced the factor of Bomzer and then wants everyone to be distsracted by the issues surrounding Bomzer to forget the problems with Tropper, and that is what is called a red herring argument.
Tropper and Bomzer are two different sets of issues. Tropper proposes to reach out to and prosleytize and convert
to high standards limitless amounts of gentiles hitched to Jews and for that he was condemned by Rav Shternbuch and the BADATS. On the other hand it also happens to be that Bomzer does conversions some regard (like Rabbis Soloveitchik and Burstein) according to the most lenient standards. Now Tropper somehow deecided he needs to fight Bomzer on that. Good for him, but it does not mean that Bomzer has no backing in Halacha which he does, it's the more lenient approach rabbis Soloveitchik and Burstein refer to in their letter of clarification, and while it may be rejected by many if not most poskim, but Bomzer cannot be "criminalized" nor stopped from doing his conversions with forged documents, yet Bomzer is not known for any campiagn to reach out to gentiles on the Internet and with massive money to bring the gentiles to resorts and concerts and preach to them to convert like Tropper does.
So the Tropper situation and the Bomzer situation are two separate issues and while they do intersect in venn diagram-like fashion, when the BADATS sent letters to Tropper they were not thinking of Bomzer and could care less what he does, the danger is from Tropper from their point of view because (a) he is reaching out to UNLIMITED numbers of gentiles and (b) he wants to nail them down with ultra strict conversions. Both remedies are against Jewish tradition, are very problematic and must be stopped. That is the view of Rabbi Eidensohn, Rav Shternbuch and the BADATS and I agree with them lefi aniyas da'ati.
"So if this is Rav Eisenstein's word against what poster Roni/Tropper has stated adamantly that Rav Eisenstein was still very tight with them as he had always been. Therefore, yet again, poster Roni/Tropper is revealed to be a liar (not as a curse word but as an accurate description of his words not jiving with Rav Eisenstein's.)
Roni: Does NOT change the content of the issue! A "minimal" involvement with an organization that is beetzem paassul is a stira mineh ubeh (a contradiction in terms)! Obviously Rav Eisenetin ENDORSED TO mEKLUBAL THAT HE WAS NOT (ENDORSED IIT MINIMALLY;() BUT THAT HE IS AN ACTIVE PARTIPANT IN SOME OF THEIR KIRUV ACITVITIES!"
RaP: Here poster Roni/Tropper veers between facing up to reality, that Rav Eisenstein is saying that he has moved away from Tropper and EJF and the little bone that was thrown Tropper's way by Rav Eisenstein that he approves of kiruv in general but not of EJF specifically and its outreach to gentiles that makes poster Roni/Tropper salivate and transform it into "the heter/haskoma that isn't"!
roNI: aND OBCVIOUSLY rap ATTEMPTS TO DELIGITIMIZE RAV EISENSTREIN OTHE PARTICIPATIONS IN THE ORGANIZATION NA THAT IS: A) HIS ENDORSING THE KIRUV ACITIVITES B) THE ACCEPTANCE OF "UNIVERSAL STANDARDS OF GERUT" WHEREBY THE HUNDREDS OF PARTICIPANTS AGREDED UPON (AS STATED AND CLARFIIED BY R. S. AND B.) THAT RAV ELYASHIV DISQUALIFIES RABBIS LIKE BOMZER FROM BEING KOSHER DAYANIM!"
RaP: Get this through your head, never have you or anyone from EJF ever said that its a "kiruv" organization, so cut out that baloney. We know that Rav Eliashiv and Rav Eisenstein do not go along with Bomzer's derech. So what else is new? The subjects and issues around Bomzer are NOT the same subjects and issues around Tropper.
"wHETHER OR NOT "It was the first public indication that Rav Eisenstein was going to go in a different direction to Tropper"' DOES NOT TAKE AWAY FROM THE FACT THAT THE ORGANIZATION'S GOAL WAS TO AND IS TO PERSUADE THE RABBIS OF THE NEED TO "AVOID CONFUSION OVER IS ACCEPTED AS AJEW" THAT PEIOPLE LIKE RAP/BOMZER BRING INTO KLAL YISROEL!"
RaP: Tropper spends tens of millions to recruit gentiles to come to EJF events when it's against Jewish tradition and law and then accuses others of bringing gentiles into Klal Yisroel? This must be the height of chutzpa of the pot calling the kettle black.
"Roni: which PRIMARILY INCLUDES RABBIS LIKE BOMZER! AND MUCH WORSE! (as the many of these rabbis who signed on the letter against bomzer are participantsof the EJF),"
RaP: The letter against Bomzer is now proven to be a fraud and a forgery and you have the chutzpa to still make statements based on that? How weird and abnormal is that!
"and even Rabbis like S. and B. had to courageously fight off the terro thatpeople like RAp bvestow upon thme"
RaP: Come what? "Terror"? What Terror? Sheer chutzpa and craziness from poster Roni/Tropper as he submits a forged letter from these rabbis, forcing them to scratch their heads and come up with UNSOLICITED letters of "clarification" and outright denial as we got from Rav Eisenstein, creating great shame and humiliation for them as they too become part of poster Roni's/Tropper's web of lies and deceit and nebech they have to clarify and explain away that they were tricked and manipulated by Tropper and he then blames all that on nameless and anonymous posters here who have nothing to do with poster Roni's/Tropper's dementia and crooked ways.
"R. Tropper should and will be commended forthis."
RaP: Krummer ganef that you are, Tropper is going to be condemned and punished for the forger and liar that he has proven himself to be in public online right here on this very blog!
"And actually, as pointed out numerous times, in the wake of the Guma affair, Tropper comes out high and honest! He comes off as someone who does not succumb to money and $$$zonah; whereas Bomzer comes of as someone who seeks the shikssahs for a $$zonah gifts!"
RaP: Sure, tell that to the marines, after Tropper took tens of millions of dollars for himself his yeshiva and for EJF from Guma while he had Guma in the palm of his hand. Maybe Jamie spurned Tropper's love and therefore left him, he's sure acting more like a spurned lover than a rational kind-hearted rabbi, it's possible the way this whole real-life soap-opera is turning out, with uncle Tom Kaplan claiming that Guma thinks of himself as the messiah, and Guma's move to Israel, Guma and his mother Ellen revealed to have been (?) major Christian Evangelicals, Rav Eisenstein dumping Tropper and EJF, letters forged and posted online to distract attention away from Troppper and onto Bomzer who's been doing what he always does, rabbis tricked into giving online written "clarifications" and on and on it goes as Tropper weaves his web of lies and tricks to kingdom come.
"Roni: The manipulator as his best! When R E. speaks of the kiruv acitivties of T and his participation with it they are called words of "consolation". YOU ARE LIAR AND MANIPULATOR!"
RaP: Nope, Rav Eisenstein was asked about if he can give Tropper a blanket endorsement and he said NO and that he can only approve of general kiruv work (to Jews) and not of Tropper's and EJF proselytizations scheme. Obviously you have selective cognition and you only note what suits you.
"aL YOUR ANIMALISITC WORDS OF TERROR AGAINST T ON THIS MATTER WITH gUMA,"
RaP: The wolf in sheep's clothing now sheds crocodile tears that he is an innocent babe in the woods in another example of the pot calling the kettle black.
"SHY AWAY BY THE ACCEPTANCEOF bOMZER OF THE $$$ZONAH TO COVNERT HIS FAKE CONVERT THAT IS not acceped intoklal yisroel! only bvecuase you needed another building!!"
RaP: Ahem, it's Tropper who has the need for buidlings in Monsey, only problem is noone wants to go there and be his captives.
"you poinsoned klal yisroel with another shikssahin it's midst???"
RaP: More shallow lies from the little hypocrite who can't stop dreaming about bringing millions of gentiles hitched to Jews into Klal Yisroel and bewails the deeds of others whom he cannot and will never control.
"Roni: actually Rav Eisentein is personally involved in some of the cases there, as he testified to Mekubal where he seess those as "Kiruv acitvities";"
RaP: What cases? It's all over baby. Rav Eisenstein is not involved with EJF anymore! And to repeat for the umpteenth time, conversion, giur and proselytization is NOT "kiruv" in any shape size or form.
"whereas your endorsmwent of BOmzer"
RaP: No endorsements for Bomzer, but no executions online via proven forged and fraudulent letters either.
"where HE SEEKS ALL THOSE GENTILE SHIKSSAHS FOR THE $$4ZONAHMONEY"
RaP: Unfortunately, Tropper's own personal history with allegations of adultery don't make him the one to cast the first stone here.
"and he shares it with you"
RaP: So far not a red cent! I have to pay for my own Internet connection and electric fees to keep posting.
"and your buddies that you DEFEND? you are hypochrite and aliar!"
RaP: And your former buddies are about to launch an inquery against you for how you forged their signatures and sent it in to be published online. Good luck with that, it ain't gonna be a lot of fun.
"Ok, so one can assume that he also expressed objections from Rav Eliashiv to Tropper about Tropper's submission to the Kaplan/Guma Evangelical Christian-originated desire to proselytize to millions of gentiles hitched to Jews that noone had ever done and that poster Roni/Tropper claimed was an ever so simple "formula" of better to do a minor sin to save the intermarried Jews of a grievous sin, such as was rejected as an opening strategy by HaRav Eliashiv, shilta - Kiruv of intermarried couples (July 18, 2008) (original document) where ",
Roni: perhaps but that did NOT STOP HIM FROM PARTICIPATING IN THAT ORGANIZATION WHERE HE FOUND CASESOF KIRUV, WHICH IN ESSENCE MEANS THAT MANY OF THE COVNERSIONS ARE VIEWED BY RAC EISENSTEIN AS KIRUV ACTIVITIES!"
RaP: Thanks for the "perhaps" that is yet another admission that Rav Eisenstein was laying down to Tropper an entirely different line that contributed to the split between them that is now in the open.
"Rav Efrati clearly states conveying Rav Eliashiv's view that: "Rav Eliashiv, shlita has repeatedly said that those living as intermarried couples cut themselves off from the Jewish people. Furthermore he holds that we are obligated to distance ourselves from them and their society and to cut off all connection with them" as well!"
rONI: lie! this letter does not talk directly to cases of TINOK SHENISHBAH! IN fact Rav Eisenstein endorses and participated in single casesof Ejf where he certainly allows the door not be shut as thisletteer of Rav Efrati suggests! because the letter by Rav Efrati does NOT deal directly with cases of tinok shenishbah. While RE objects to proseltyzation he endorses kiruv to them (if they come to the organization) and the letter by Re shunning these opening of the door cannot and do not talk about tinok shenishbah."
RaP: It's amazing how poster Roni/Tropper can rush a quote from the factory line to the retail department and try to sell it when he mixes past acts and statements by Rav Eisenstein with a little new sentence in favor of kiruv in general. Yet another sign of someone on life-support gasping and grasping at straws.
"But it is obvious tht RAP is an hypochritre and liar for he and Bomzer actively seek to covnert those shikassah FOR MARRIAGE WHERE THEY WOULD NTO LIVE A LIFE BY SHULCHAN ARUCH HOW CAN HE REPUDIATE TROPPER FOR CONVERTING THEM WHEN THEY WILL KEEP TORAH AND MITZVOT?!?"
RaP: Tropper and Bomzer are two seperate parshas. They are only confused and combined in Tropper's head. He needs therapy to rid himself of this bugaboo.
"ROni: Rap is liar and manipulator! RE's was asked by mekubal about RE's acitvities in the EJF NOT IN THE KOL YEHUDAH YESHIVA! It is about that RE answered that his involvement were about his kiruv acigtvites, which means that RE sees some of his acitvities at EJF as PERMISSIBLE MITZVAH KIRUV ACTIVITIES!"
Rap: Poster Roni/Tropper has now forgotten that Tropper's yeshiva is called the Kol Yaakov yeshiva, further proof that he is suffering from dementia and memory loss, poor chap!
"He then said that as far as their conversions that it would have to case by case."
Good morning America. Tropper's false attitude of the holier than thou EJF conversion is revealed to be the hollow and shallow sham that it always was as it's finally revealed that Tropper is no different to Bomzer or any other Orthodox rabbi doing conversions",
rONI: lies and lies and lies! i know for a fact that re passels r bomzer's gerut and many other rabbonim's gerut by being "bomzer" gerut!"
RaP: Notice how the statement by poster Mekubal is about Rabbi Tropper's and EJF's conversions and that poster Roni/Tropper switches the subject to Bomzer yet again. Get this mister, Rav Eisenstein is now telling the world, that in spite of all your krummer lomdus defenses, that Tropper's conversions are NO BETTER than Bomzer's because Rav Eisenstien affirms that Tropper's conversions can and will only be judged on a case by case basis, no better than any RCA conversion.
"Just because he may question the gerut of the higest rabbi,"
RaP: So now Tropper is "the highest rabbi" when he is also the biggest forger and liar in rabbinic history too.
"does mean that he legitimizes the gerut of someone who converted many insincerepeople very often."
RaP: Only you would have this illogical problem because noone but you equated Bomzer with Tropper. They are two people with two different histories and to sets of issues. One is not like the other.
"Actaullu Rap is being a liar andmanipulator here,"
RaP: And you are being a total bore because you can't come up with any original accusations so you just recycle some others you've seen. Go read a book and learn something for a change instead of spending your time here defending the forger and fraud Tropper.
"for RABBIS S AND B HAVE CLEARLY STATED IN THEIR LETTER"
RaP: Only because you forged a letter and forged their signatures onto it and they were put in the humiliating spot of trying to clean up a mess they did not create.
"THAT RAV ELYASHIV does not accept even SINCERE GERIM WHENN THEY WER PFORM BY A BD THAT OFTEN MAKES INSINCERE GERIM! IT IS BLACK AND WHITE IN THE LETTER! RAV ESISENSTEIN WOUILD NOT HOLD OTHERSIE! (AND THIS IS IN ADDITION TO WHAT I KNOW FOR A FACT THE POISITIONS OF RE)."
RaP: It's time you stopped being a spokesman for Rav Eliashiv he does not need forgers and frauds to speak for him and surely you realize that Rav Eisenstein has had enough of you saying things that he then has to deny. Go home and try another job!
"Now if Rabbi Eisenstein could have only told that to Rav Sherman who brutally ruled against Rav Drukman's conversions and did not state the accepted and correct Halachic thing that it must be done on a case by case basis Rav Eisenstein will have closed the circle."
you are a liar! RAV eISENSTEIN CLEARLY SUPPORTED rav sherman!"
RaP: Where did I say that Rav Eisenstien did "not" support Rav Sherman, read what I said again. But what I added was that Rav Eisenstein should be CONSISTENT and just like he now holds that ALL of Tropper's converts should be judged on a case by case basis similaraly for the sake of consistency, to be oisgehalten, he should also state that Rav Drukman's converts should also be judged on a case by case basis because it is impossible to say that every one of them was a no good conversion. That's all. There should be one standard of fairness in all cases where conversion by an Orthodox rabbi (and Rav Drukman was also a rosh yeshiva) was performed and subsequently needs to be re-examined and questioned.
"you are a brutal dishonest man!"
RaP: And you are the tooth fairy? Or Tinkerbel perhaps?
"you would make every lie to score points!"
RaP: The pot calling the kettle black. Just shouting the word "lie" does not mean there is a lie you know! And you make false accusations when you can't even remember the name of your own yeshiva. Roni the phoney!
"RAv Eisenstein is the person who railed against those who attacked Rav Sherman! He supports Rav sherman ALL THE WAY!"
RaP: I know. So what are you hacking in kop about? To repeat I said that now that he considers Tropper's conversions no better than Bomzer's and that each case must be studied on a case by case basis all I am saying is that the same standard be applied to the situatin with Rav Drukman's converts and each one be taken on a case by case basis as they have now been forced to do lema'ase since among the many weak converts were a few very good, sincere and strong ones. But that's what happens when you start acting like the Taliban and rule by fiat and decrees, many innocent people and victims get hurt for no reason of their own.
"He said that he could only offer blanket endorsement to those who have Semicha from him, or whose B"D follow unswervingly the views of Maran Eliashiv."
The implication being that Tropper, for all his blowing of the "Rav Eliashiv trumpet" in his own favor is now proven to be a liar again because Rav Eisenstein is clearly saying that Tropper cannot be taken as someone who speaks for or abides by or acts on behalf of Rav Eliashiv's ways in any ways and that Tropper's claims about this are therefore false and that basically he has no right even to invoke the name of Rav Eliashiv since Rav Eliashiv's people would never back him up!
roNI: aLL THE FARDREY KOPS OF THE KRUMMER WOULD NOT EASE THE FACT THAT WHILE HE DOES NOT GIVE "BLABNKET ENDORSMENT" DO THOSE WHO DID NOT RECEIVE HIS SMICHA he nevertheless edorses AND pafrticipates ATHT EKIRUV ACTIVITIES OF THE ejf!"
RaP: Bottom line, it adds up to an entirely new revelation that Rav Eisenstein DOES NOT regard Tropper is one of his mekuravim any more (if he ever was, no doubt Tropper fooled him for a long time) and that he does not and cannot give Tropper and EJF his haskoma or blanket endorsement for anything. World be warned!
"3) Concerning the non-Jewish spouse of an intermarried couple, he said that it is impossible to say that they should for sure be converted."
This goes against every single thing that poster Roni/Tropper has been blasting at everyone on this blog who come within an inch of his space.
rONI: tyou are a liar and manipulator. I never claimed that every single spouse should for sure be converted! you shoteh and liar, i said that in idea in principlethere should be room to accept every single tinok shenishbah spouse of a convertQ! (and not those who do not follow torah andm mitzvotas you and bomzer perform!)."
RaP: Bomzer does not proselytize. He performs conversions for those who come to him willingly. Unlike Tropper who got a crazy idea with $$$Tom Kaplan$$$ and $$$Guma Aguiar$$$ to spend tens of millions of dollars to advertise all over the world and bring gentiles hitched to Jews and give them the fanciest foods and lodgings for free and to try and wine and dine them and convince them to convert. Lately, after Guma's departure and with rising criticism, EJF has toned down a little, but the original goals and problems remain, unfortunately, as we see from your stubborn dfenses even tho EJF is crumbling by every minute!
"Rav Eisenstein's view is CLEARLY like the one cited above from Rav Eliashiv, that one does not start out with a strategy of open arms to welcome every last gentile with a Jewish connection back to Judaism".
ROni: andi t is even MORE CLEAR THAT A BD THAT OFTEN CONVERTS INSINCERE CONVERTS HAVE THEIR STAUS AS BD AUTOMATICALLY PASSUL AS STATED BY RAV SOLOVEITCHIK AND BURSTEIN AS THE OPINION OF RAV ELYASHIV AND THIS IS WHAT RAV EISENSTEIN HAS SAID ALL ALNOG FOR THE LAST DECADE!
That is somethin
aND CERTAINLY raP AND boMZER SHOULD STOP THEIR CONVERTING ALL THOUSANDS OF SHIKSSAHS THAT THEY HAVE CONVERTED AND LEAVE IP UP TO MOSHIACH GTO FIX THE PROBLEMS!"
RaP: Honestly, I do not have the true and full statistics for Bomzer and his converts. No doubt he has kept a list of them and it would be interesting to see how his converts have turned out. I do not know the man and I would certainly give him the benefit of the doubt until concrete statistics from his entire life of conversion work can be proven and brought objectively. Until such time, a man like Tropper surrounded in controversy all his life with so may skeletons in his closet cannot arise to be the one to purseue and taunt people like Bomzer. If EJF wants to go on, they must FIRE TROPPER and get a more humane person to be the director whose opinions and judgments can be trusted by everyone. Tropper is not rational and he is a proven fraud and forger!
"He said in a situation where the Jewish spouse was unknoweledgable of his/her Judaism at the time of the marriage and thus a tinok hanishba mamash, he said the door should not be shut and that way should be eased as it would undoubtedly help the Jew return to Judaism. However, in a case where the Jewish spouse was, however minimally aware of their Judaism and the problems of intermarriage, that there needed to be overwhelming reason from another direction in order to allow a conversion. He said that it would ultimately have to be case by case, like any other conversion."
Here Rav Eisenstein breaks new ground by saying that only Jews who are a "tinok shenishba" gets to have their gentile partner considerd for conversion but if they know a little alef bais and eat some knaidlach on Pesach they are out. This is a tough way to set up the situation. Who decides on how little one needs to know before accepting them into conversion programs? And what about the known klal by the Chazon Ish that EVERYONE in modern times, including even the frum, are regarded as "tinokos shenishbu" and not just only those who know nothing about Yiddishkeit. At any rate, why not just reject all of them, period? Maybe someone wth just a little Jewish knowledge will turn out to be a better Jewish partner to the convert he's hitched to in the end? This is a complex discussion for all rabbis who do conversions to deal with and there is no one formula that will hold and work for all, but at least Rav Eisenstein is expressing some sort of idea for us to chew on"
RONI: COHCHOM FUN DER MAH NISHTANOH1 THISI S THE EJF'S POSITION ALL ALLNOG, THEY DECIDE TO COVNERT PRIMARILY ALL THOSE WHO ARE SPOUSESOF TINOK SHENISHBAH AND FOR THIS WE RABBONIM WHICH SHULCHANORUCH STTES THAT "LEFI REOS EYNEY HADAYON" THEY CAN BE LENIENT IN CERTAIN SITUATIONS AND THISIS THE EJF'S GOAL."
RaP: Unfortunately EJF has many goals and they don't all get displyed simultaneously. The most dangerous and controversial goal of EJF is that it wishes to reach millions of not billions of gentiles with the flimsiest of Jewish connections, based on its own advertising, and that is not something that any Dayan or any bar sechel will accept as some sort of legitimate goal to be pursued.
"BUIT BOMZER AND RAPS GOALIS TO CONVERT ALL SHIKSSAHS THROUGH INNSINCERE CONVERSION IF $$$NEEEDED!"
RaP: How many shiksas did Tropper meet when he lectures on campuses all over America? Let not the pot call the kettle black!
"He also stated that under no circumstances should they be sought out, as that would overturn thousands of years of tradition.
"ARE YOU LISTENING poster Roni/Tropper, this means NO PROSELYTIZING and certainly take back your silly krummer sevoras you plastered all over this blog to say the opposite thing that Rav Eisenstein states loud and clear, and in case you don't get it, he is saying: Under no circumstances should ANY potential converts be sought out, as that would overturn thousands of years of tradition".
rONI: aER you rap listening? when you send a shikssah to Bomzer to convert and are a partner to him, you are NOT ALLOWED TO DO IT!"
RaP: I don't and who's talking about Bomzer accept for you 24/7? Do you dream of Bomzer too, that he is chasing you or the other way around?
"you are not allowed to encourage someone to covndert in that fashion!@ HOw muich more so, in the caseof Jamie Aguiar where RAv Eisnstein rails against Bomzer's evil machinations!"
RaP: Let Rav Eisenstein speak about Jamie Aguiar for himself, but why did he not speak up sooner when he knew that Jamie's husband was co-head of EJF and Rav Eisenstein enjoyed all those free trips to America and to the free hotels and concerts and warn the world and the rabbis there that right at the head of EJF there was hypocrisy and a problem that EJF's own co-chairman was living with a Brazilian shiksa who refused to get a EJF conversion? Rav Eisenstein still needs to explain that too before he will be trusted with other critcisms of Jamie and Guma Aguiar.
"You rap and your firends did a tremndous chilul hashem by sending Jamie to bomzer to convert where she does not keep shabbos and is mechalle shabbos befarhessya!"
RaP: Yeah right, I never heard of the name Aguiar till I came to this blog about a year ago and read about EJF and asked questions who Guma Aguiar was and now you attribute this great influence to me? WHY NOT JUST TELL THE WORLD WHAT HAPPENED AND WHO IT WAS that grabbed Jamie and Guma from Tropper. Was it just the Chabad rabbi in Florida or were there others? Or was it that she was spurning Tropper's advances and finally had enough of him? Noone will know the truth if all you can do is spread lies via forged documents.
"But, leaving this aside: let us say that RE's position is not in sync with Tropper on this issue."
RaP: Well at least there can be no doubt about this now. Thank you again for this honest open admission of reality.
"It does not mwean that Rav Reuven Feinstein agrees witrh RE!"
RaP: Ahh, back to that last line of defense with all the Lower East Siders sticking together. You know at some point Rav Reuven Feinstein is going to conclude that Tropper and his EJF are just a huge pain in the neck and that he gets more agmas nefesh from it than it's worth and he will one day wake up and just decide that it's time to dump Tropper and all his EJF shenanigans. It's more likely to happen in the present environment where many of their (Tropper's and Rav Feinstein's) financial backers have gone in drerd. So this is the absloute weakest defense for Troper and EJF and just shows how desperate the situation really is for them right now and the future looks bleak.
"And as long as he did not clarify that he disagrees with Tropper on this and he is a participant with Tropper in his organiation we can rest on the chazakah that is somewhat in agreement with Tropper's idea!"
RaP: Don't hold your breath! It looks like Rav Eisenstein has finally said goodbye to Tropper and EJF thanks in part to the forging of the anti-Bomzer letter by Tropper on Rav Eisenstein's own organization's letterhead, the Vaad HaOlami LeInyanei Giur. Heads will roll and Tropper's is clearly gonna be one of 'em.
"and the worse kumkeit by mr krrom is:"
RaP: The pot calling the kettle black for the umpteenth time by the talmid chochem shoiteh himself!
"that he attacks like an animal"
RaP: Moo!
"the averaof prosetyizing"
RaP: Thanks for finally admitting it's an avera. Now if you could have admitted that earlier you could have saved me so many hours and I could have helped Klal Yisroel with other projects instead of having to answer your lomdishe klotz kashyes all the time.
"even by a tinok shenishbah"
RaP: Please stop with all the fake rachmones for the "tinok shenishba" -- there are few of those today, every day there is a huge amount of news about Israel and antisemitism and the Holocaust and Jewish programming online and on TV and noone can claim today that they are pure tinokos shenishbu. Even Obama in the White House has people around him who are Jews that know stuff about Judaism including himself, when Michelle Obama's cousin is a black rabbi, there is no excuse anymore of tinok shenishba in America with TV, movies, Internet and books and colleges all hacking about Israel, antisemitism, the Holocaust, and Jews in the Obama cabinet and more.
"but ENDORSES A FAKE CONVERSION STATING THAT THIS IS A "LENIENT APPROACH"!"
RaP: Nope, just read the letter of "clarification" from Rabbis Soloveitchik and Burstein again and you will see that it is they that use the term "lenient" applying it to Bomzer and obviously to any RCA-type conversions quite clearly and to nothing else. I am endorsing nothing, just that there are different viewpoints unlike Tropper who only lives in a my-way-or-the-highway world to the detriment of all around him!
"THIS GET'S AN a+++ FOR KRUMKEYT!"
RaP: Sure and your twisting and turning like trapped shark gets an a------- in truth and honesty.
"wITH REGARDS TO THE LETTER: BARUCH HASHEM WE HAVE THE LETTER WRITEN BY LOTS OF RABBONIM"
RaP: You miserable so and so how can you have the gall to thank God when it's all based on a totally forged letter with forged signatures manipulatively shoved in by you that has been denounced in effect by Rav Eisenstein. You are both amoral and immoral.
"AND EVEN AFTER THE TERRO THAT RAP AND HIS ENABLERS AND COLLEAGUES HAVE PERFORMED FOR THE PAST MONTGH"
RaP: "Terror"? What "terror" it was some person on the outside, not conne
cted to this blog a "Ben Israel" who submitted the humiliating letter of "clarification" from Rabbis Soloveitchik and Burstein and now we are told by poster Mekubal that Rav Eisenstein denies even writing or signing or seeing the letter and you're getting on a false high from this? Sicko! Do you think that people are entirely devoid of brains? You must because you keep on trying to fool them.
"THEY COULD NOT COME WITH A COMPLETE RETRACTION BY ANY OF THE SIGNATORIES!"
RaP: Three have already retracted and the other six will soon follow no doubt as they get to hear about what happened and how their signatures were fruadently forged and to add insult to injury you sent it in to be posted here as the ultimate red herring move and now you exult like a beast of prey that has swallowed a victim, but you have only bitten off more than you can chew and you will get indigestion from your foraging on a foul forgery.
"THE CLARIFICATION LETTER OF R. SOLOVETICHIK AND BURSTEN WERE THE GREATEST SERVICE DONE BY RAP"
RaP: How so? You forge a letter and you humiliate rabbis into explaining themselves and you think that you will get away with that by somehow pinning the blame on others who have nothing to do with either Bomzer or Tropper? What kind of insanity is that?
"WHERE EVERYONE SEES THAT RABBI BOMZER'S COVNERSIOBNS SHOULD NOT BE MESSADER KIDDUSHIN UNLESS THEY RECOVNERT AND FOR THIS "DAYENU"!!!"
RaP: No, that is not what Rabbis Soloveitchik and Burstein say, they in effect say the same thing that Rav Eisenstein says about Tropper's EJF conversions that there are no blanket acceptances and that each case must be judged on a case by case basis which is a victory for Rabbi Bomzer whom they describe as him and his bais din holding from a lenient view that is also a view even though they do not agree with it personally. So what are you gloating about? You sound like a shikker on Purim already.
"Their statment of addmission tht Rav ELyashiv's camp rejects the conversionsperformed by Bd often perform insincere conversions even when they are sincere is a great accomplishment that all toil was wothwhilwe for this accomplishment!"
RaP: Whatever, you are talking to yourself now. So they agree with Rav Eliashiv today on this letter of clarification, that's good, it obviously makes you happy, were they not on board with you till now? So that means you were lying about their relationship with Tropper and EJF until now and it took this letter borne of illegitimate shtik to get them on your side as you imagine? That too is very sick!
"The "REd herring" of RAP to atttck Tropper"
RaP: Learn something original will you. It was Rabbi Eidensohn, Rav Shternbuch and the BADATS that put Tropper and EJF on notice that they must stop their proselytization activities. That reality has not changed. That you did the dastardly deed of perhaps fooling Rabbi Eidensohn by submitting an unauthorized FORGED letter in the name of the Vaad HaOlami Linyanei Giur and FORGED the signatures of NINE rabbis from another yet unreleased to the public letter in Hebrew is a great shande and reveals you to be a dishonest and fraudulent forger and crook. Nothing to gloat about and be proud of that's for sure.
"is clearly come to full light that he is motivated to attack him for raising universal halachik standards as Rabbi S and B clarifiy!"
RaP: Sheer poppy-cock! By all means raise standards, but Tropper is NOT the one to be the standard bearer of this because he is dishonest, vindictive, a fraud and now a proven forger. He has not answered the letters he was summoned to do so from Rav Shternbuch and the BADATS and he has no letters of haskoma from anyone but pathetically must wait till he forges a letter gets it posted under false pretenses as part of another discussion to distract attention from himself, and puts the rabbis who have to applogize into the humiliating posture of having to answer for his sins of forger and deceiver, and if that is something to be "proud" of it baffles all human reason and poshutte yashrus.
"And clearly puts us all in gears that we all work in the future towards not sending candidates to BD who often make insincere conversions."
RaP: Who needs this pep talk? and it's actually a not so veiled warning from Tropper and EJF to the world that look at the lengths they will go to to wage a war against a Modern Orthodox rabbi they hate. RCA and American Jewry be warned, the Charedi mafia in the person of Tropper is coming after you! A pretty sick message to the world and nothing to be "proud" of!
"No ammount of terror"
RaP: Look whose talking about "terror" the arch terrorist himself!
"will erase the veracity of the letter and it's content!"
RaP: Tropper loves a fight and he's gonna get one, that's for sure. Rabbis don't like to be made fools of via forged letters and have their signatures forged and posted online as if in pillory fashion.
"For aqny retraction by Rav Eisenstein to have any validity we muist have a written sttatement by him for the public!"
RaP: Look whose asking for written statements when he couldn't come up with a single one for EJF from not a single rabbi, and from the one who at the same time had no remorse about FORGING an English letter and pasting the signatures of nine rabbis on it from another letter they signed in Hebrew and not telling them he had done so. But why be suprised by the chutzpah that comes from the house of Tropper's dirty tricks worthy of the cosa nostra itself.
"And I conclude again by askibng MEkubal: Have you told him that you were giving this report back to the public?"
RaP: Why do you even have the question?
"In any event, the letter is here,"
RaP: By forgery!
"most of them did not succumb gto even "clarify" in writing what they wrote,"
RaP: They will, when they find out that you forged their signatures and forced them into this humiliating situation!
"some "clarified" and made the point loud and clear!"
RaP: If you read their clarification you will see that it is quite obvious they did not sign the English anti-Bomzer letter you produced, but were too polite to say so explicitly it's still self-understood that that is what happened and you take pride in that yet!
"and Rabbi Eisnstein, did not offer any public writing to the public to know wha the really feels it belongs to the "real" world when he states things out of Bd (as mevuar in SO that things statd out of BD dod not carry the weight as things said in BD and things said in private do not carry the weight of things writtn)."
RaP: Now you become lomdish when it suits you so that people must still think that Rav Eidensohn joined you in forging the anti-Bomzer letter and that then means that either Rabbis Soloveitchik and Burstein are lying or Rabbis Tropper and Eisenstein are lying because both sides are referring to different letters.
"and certainly the maachinagtionso of the manipulator andliar FRAP would not distort the known truth that RAv ELyashiv and ?Eisenstein and gthe Haredi Camp and half the MO do not accept a dayayan who very often performs passule convesions."
RaP: That is just you putting words in my mouth when all I ask for is a fair hearing and not summary executions online via forged letters for anyone, even if it was for Tropper.
"The Rabbi becomes possul for ALL covnersuions! and thereofre instead of him trying to attack animalistically and with terror Tropper let him desist from thisd and work hard to persuade R. Bozmer not do anymore Gerut"
RaP: This is Tropper's fantasy, to stop Bomzer but last anyone heard
heard Bomzer lives in America where there is freedom of religion and as long as you practice it peacefully it is legal. Noone can stop Bomzer and noone can stop Tropper, people must use their brains and utilize the bechira that Hashem gave them and not be bullied by people like Tropper into a my-way-or-the-highway Talibanization of Judaism.
"(in the aspt he used to saome good"
RaP: Ok, so now you admit that Bomzer did some good, yet you contradictorally said a few lines up that all his conversions are no good, so who is going to be the one to check through the mess you are creating for all the good gerim that Bomzer converted? You are trying to act like Rav Sherman when you should follow Rav Eisenstein's advice and just like Tropper's conversions can only be judged on a case by case basis so must ALL of Bomzer's conversions also be dealt with like that.
"but now that the enbalbers have givn him the past decade oftren $$$ and insincere covnerts they have ruined his life);
RaP: And Tropper has ruined how many lives..? Tropper thrives on ruining people's lives, I have never heard of anyone who talks in these terms. No normal rabbis do, but then Tropper is not a normal rabbi.
"let them desits from all thse activitea"
RaP: Heil Tropper, the new Fuhrer of the Jews!
"and help Rabbis S and B and others to build a "universal standard of gerut" that will remove all fake geerim and goyim from klal yisroel!!!!"
RaP: And let Tropper and EJF submit to the requests of Rabbi Eidensohn Rav Shternbuch and the BADATS and STOP all proselytization and public appeals and programs to attract gentiles hitched to Jews in order to convert them. As long as they do this they have no right to preach to any other Orthodox rabbi or group about anything.
RAP,
ReplyDeleteafter so much shtussin and nonsense and krumkeyt and hatred of one man I thank you for responding in my behalf! YOU ARE MY BEST DEFENSE!
(For new post):
ReplyDeleteUnderstanding the Modern Orthodox perspective and reactions to the attacks upon them.
Rabbi Nochum (Norman) Eisenstein faces criticism from a new direction as a former friend from Skokie attacks his association with EJF and work with conversions
A Modern Orthodox perspective on the attacks against it by Rabbis Eisenstein, Tropper and EJF
A notable and respected Jewish blog owner, Modern Orthodox Rabbi Harry Maryles of Chicago, Illinois, who is an old friend and acquaintance of Rabbi Nochum Eisenstein of Vaad HaOlami Leninyanei Giur, the fickle ally of Rabbi Tropper of EJF.
Maryles's popular blog "Emes Ve-Emunah: A Forum for Orthodox Jewish thought on Halacha, Hashkafa, and sociological issues of our time" is at haemtza.blogspot.com and resembles this blog of Rabbi Dr. Eidensohn/da'as torah just that Rabbi Maryles's blog speaks from a Skokie-style Modern Orthodox perspective, with its hashkofa based on: Rabbi Aaron Soloveichik, Rabbi Dr. Joseph B. Soloveitchik, Dr. Norman Lamm and Torah U’Mada, Dr. Eliezer Berkovits, the Hebrew Theological College, Rabbi Yaakov Perlow and Rabbi Mordechai Rogov.
What is of relevance to this blog is that Rabbi Maryles claims to have the personal insight to speak about Rabbi Nochum Eichenstein, whose English first name was Norman and was known as "Normy" to his childhood friends.
In a recent post at With Friends like This… (April 03, 2009) when a poster of accused him attacking Rabbi Eisenstein by calling him "Normy" he states that:
"I have not done any of the vile things my old schoolmate Normy has done. He and his 'freinds have caused countless numbers of sincere and dedictaed Jews to question their faith in God and belief in Judaism - by labeling their beliefs in an ancient universe - heresy! He has also refuse to allow a Dayan on his conversion Beis Din who does.
If Normy Eisenstein considers me - and others who believe in an ancient universe heretics, then my calling him by his nickname... Normy (which is what I called him when he was a student in Skokie) is mild by comparisson. And that isn't even all the damgage he's done! If he wants to discuss it with me, he can call me. I'm in the phone-book.
Harry Maryles | Homepage | 04.03.09 - 2:28 pm | #"
These are angry words and quite serious allegations and with closer scrutiny, it seems that over the last two years, Rabbi Maryles has been a relentless critic of Rabbi Eisentein, his work and of Tropper and EJF as well for as long as this blog by Rabbi Eidensohn has been!
In that vein it behooves all serious followers of this blog to take a closer look at Rabbi Maryles's 5 main posts so far that deal exclusively with Rabbis Eisenstin and Tropper & EJF and his perspective of what they have been up to. The following does not touch on the many comments that the posts elicited:
1) "Eisenstein’s War against the Jews (November 11, 2007)
... We have a war on our hands declared by the most radical fundamentalists in the Torah world. It is not a war L’Shem Shamayim. But it is a war against the Jews. Not all Jews. Just certain types of Jews.
The latest salvo in this war was fired last week from a podium by one of its top generals, Rabbi Nachum Eisenstein who declared thousands of Orthodox Jews to be heretics, many of them Jews of great religious stature.
Jews who dare to seek sensible answers to sincere questions are the enemy. Questions they had about some of the most fundamental elements of nature which point to an ancient universe. Evidence that seems to contradict the religious fundamentalist belief that the universe is less than 6000 years old. Anyone who dares attempt to reconcile those contradictory with the Torah by explaining that the days of creation were not literal 24 hour days... even if using legitimate rabbinic sources in doing so... is now deemed a heretic... an anemy that must be ‘cleansed out’ of the Torah world.
So Rabbi Nachum Eisenstein would have us believe. I don’t know how accurately this reflects the views of his 97 year old mentor, Rav Yosef Shalom Elyashiv in whose name this declaration was made. While I do believe that Rav Elyashiv himself believes that the universe is less than 6000 years old... I truly question whether he actually now declared those who believe it to be older... are considered heretics. I truly believe that Rabbi Eisenstein misrepresents his elderly mentor’s views on this...
For if Rav Elyashiv actually declared these beliefs heresy, where was he until now? Beliefs about an ancient universe didn’t happen yesterday. They didn't just fall out of the sky and implant thmeselves into the brains of thousands of Ehrliche Jews. They have been around for a long time. Rabbinic sources for them go back centuries... way back to the Rishonim, the medieval commentators. Why did he wait until he was 97 years old to declare these beliefs heretical? Did he not know about Rabbi Carmel? Or Rabbi Kaplan? Or the Tifferes Yisroel? I’m sure he did. Yet he never felt the need to declare there beliefs heretical until now... at age 97.
Yet this is what Rabbi Eisenstein has told us. And in doing so he has dismissed the opinions of many other Gedolim who have publicly declared these beliefs be perfectly fine. I believe that this is Rabbi Eisenstein’s’ personal war. Not Rav Elyashiv’s.
The problem is that we have no way of knowing for sure. Rabbi Eisenstein has usurped the authority of Rav Elyashiv. Precious few people have an opportunity to see Rav Elyashiv without going through Rabbi Eisenstein or others like him first. The elderly Rav Elyashiv is fiercely protected from the masses.
Rabbi Eisenstein would have us believe that he is in effect ‘Rav Elyashiv’ now. And many people see him this way. When he speaks they hear Rav Elyashiv. It’s not that he is lying about what Rav Elyashiv says. But he is definitely hearing Rav Elyashiv through his own zealous mind ...a mind which is determined to push his own agenda. He was a zealot when I knew him as a young student at HTC. And he is a zealot now.
In my view this is a criminal act of epic proportions. In my view, Rabbi Eisenstein is defining Torah Jewry in his own image while claiming the mantle of Rav Elyashiv. And in the process he is driving deeper and deeper a wedge that may end up cutting off masses of Orthodox Jewry as illegitimate.
...This is a war and we have to fight back. The Torah world needs to rid itself of people who seek to destroy the lives of so many people... and restore sanity to the Torah world before it’s too late." (As of 6 Apr 09, this post had 142 comments).
2) "Are You a Convert To Judaism? Think Again! (May 09, 2008)
How many more lives will this man ruin? Rabbi Norman Eisenstein, a man who I recall was a known Kanoi when he was still an adolescent student in Skokie Yeshiva has inserted himself into the recent controversy over Rabbi Druckman’s conversions. In fact he may very well be behind it. He is supposedly Rav Elyashiv’s right hand man. And the Dayanim who voided those conversions were Rav Elyashiv’s appointees.
Rabbi Eisenstein has come out and supported the decision taken by them - invalidating the conversions of hundreds if not thousands of Jews converted by Rabbi Chaim Druckman. The claim is that since it was discovered that some (many?) of his converts never accepted the requirement to observe Mitzvos it casts doubt on all of his converts and they must all re-convert.
The repercussions of this are awful. This isn’t just about Rabbi Druckman. It is about any Rav who ever converted any Ger if it is discovered that a significant number of his Gerim never intended to observe the Mitzvos. According to Rabbi Eisenstein et al, all of his Gerim are suspect too...
...There were many such Rabbis in Orthodoxy. They have converted both sincere and insincere converts. Rabbi Eisenstein has just voided all of them, and the Jewishness of their children in the case of female converts.
Were his intentions good? Did he mean to strengthen Klal Yisroel by eliminating false coverts in our midst? I’m sure that’s what he thinks. And I cannot judge him. But there is a True Judge. And Rabbi Eisenstein will not be judged by his intentions. He will be judged by his actions. And his actions in this and in many other situations have cast misery into the lives of countless numbers of people." (As of 6 Apr 09, this post has 129 comments)
3) "Burning the Living Torah (November 09, 2007)
Back in 1981, Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan wrote a new translation of the Chamishei Chumshei Torah… the five books of Moses …called The Living Torah. He felt that previous translations were not that clear or readable. He also wanted to keep the translation as close to its basic meaning as possible and to make certain that it remained faithful to the tenets of Torah Judaism.
It was an immediate success. And it remains highly popular. It can be found in all manner of Orthodox homes and synagogues from the most Charedi to the most modern Orthodox.
But according to reliable sources, Rabbi Elyashiv has now deemed this book to the product of a heretic. Worthy of burning. Not useable. That is because his closest confidant and representative, Rabbi Nachum Eisenstein, has declared in Rav Elyashiv's name that anyone who believes that the universe is more than 5768 years old is a Koffer B’Ikkar. An Apikores… a heretic. So this widely accepted Chumash can be thrown in the trash… indeed must be thrown in the trash! That is because Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan is on record in a widely publicized paper that he wrote that he believes the universe is 15 billion years old.
This declaration was made by him from a podium at the Eternal Jewish Family (EJF) conference in Washington, DC... an organization formed to standardize all Orthodox conversions. The conference was attended by many of the top names in the Torah world. Many recognized as Gedolim.
This is a shocking development.
As most people who are interested in these things know by now, this controversy began several years ago when Rabbi Natan Silfkin’s books which espoused these views were deemed heretical. But since then the controversy has remained in a state of uncertainty.
There have been Poskim who have quietly said that Rabbi Slifkin’s books are not heretical. Others have said that Rabbi Slifkin’s specific explanations were problematic and that was Rav Elyashiv’s problem with them. But not the general thesis of an ancient universe. At worst this was not the preferred belief, but acceptable nonetheless. Certainly not heretical.
Rabbis Slifkin and Kaplan are of course not alone. The Tifferes Yisroel, and many many others join them. Furthermore many current Gedolei Torah, like Rav Shmuel Kaminetsky are on record as accepting that such beliefs are not heresy...
In one brief moment according to Rabbi Nachum Eisenstein, Rav Elyashiv has deemed us all Kofrim B’Ikkar. And has ordered that anyone who believes the world is ancient, may not serve on a Beis Din and may not perform conversions. And any conversions done by them… past, present, or future… are illegitimate!
Can anyone even begin to imagine how many people there have been over time who have been converted by a Rav who believed that the universe is ancient? They have gotten married, had children… and even grandchildren by now. All interspersed into the general Orthodox population!
This is a nightmare. I can’t even begin to fathom the repercussions of this. Rav Elyashiv is the most respected of Gedolei Torah in the world. Most of the Charedi world considers him the Gadol HaDor, especially in Israel. The equivalent of Shmuel B’Doro… the prophet Samuel in his time …or Moshe Rabbenu in his!
The time has come to stop this…or it could end up destroying Judaism. Telling intelligent, educated, and sincere Jews that they must deny their sincere beliefs can push many, many of them over the edge. Talk about ‘adults at risk’. This is the grand-daddy of them all...
At this point, it is time for all those Gedolim who disagree to stand up and say so publicly! American or Israeli, they must declare that Rav Elyashiv though a great Gadol, is not the final authority on this matter.
I call upon them to do so. No more beating around the bush. They have to stand up for Klal Yisroel and have the courage to say that Jews who believe in an ancient universe are not Kofrim B’Ikkar. They are not heretics! And that they will not allow the Living Torah to be burned!" (As of 6 Apr, 09, there were 130 comments to this post).
4) "Raising the Bar on Conversions (May 19, 2008)
...After an initial clash between Israeli courts and the American rabbinate via the Rabbinical Council of America (RCA) - a compromise was reached that would assure that all future conversations would be legitimate. That is a good thing. To continue questionable conversions would have put the entire Jewish people in danger... I only wish the story could have ended there.
But it doesn’t. An organization called the Eternal Jewish Family (EJF) was created. And that’s when everything seemed to go south. I am not prepared to condemn the entire enterprise yet. But with each passing day I am beginning to question it more and more.
Based on recent events I have to question some of the things being done.One of the more nefarious things happened at a convention where Rabbi Norman Eisenstein - supposedly in the name of Rav Elyashiv - said that anyone who believes in an ancient universe (older than 5768 years) is disqualified from being a Dayan, a judge in a conversion court...
But it isn’t just EJF. It is their spiritual kin too …as in the recent outrageous Psak by Israeli Dayanim invalidating masses of conversions which were done by a Dati Leumi (Israeli - modern Orthodox) Rav. Even those who were sincere, promised to be observant, and kept their promise. That Psak was widely condemned by rabbinic leaders like Rav Aharon Lichtenstein. And it was strongly condemned by the RCA. And it that decision was was over-turned by the Israeli chief rabbinic court judge, Rabbi Shlomo Amar. But that didn’t stop Rabbi Eisenstein and EJF from publicly supporting the Psak even after it was over-turned.
Here is how Hirhurim’s Rabbi Student put it:
Let me point out that EJF has publicly supported the ruling (link). No surprise, since EJF is run by one of the leading antagonists of R. Natan Slifkin (not the antagonist recently arrested but a different one). My impression is that the organization simply rejects Jews who don't follow their "Da'as Torah".
The most recent event reported in the media – if true - is quite shocking. It should put to bed any doubt about whether there is a war against modern Orthodoxy by certain Rabbanim in the Charedi world. Rabbi Leib Tropper, founder and head of EJF nullified one of his own conversions. The reason? According the article:
Tropper did not revoke Sarah’s conversion because she bowed down to idols, accepted Jesus as her Lord and Savior, or identified with the atheist philosophies of Christopher Hitchens. She didn’t renounce any universally accepted tenet of Judaism. Sarah’s conversion was ruled invalid because she did what many Modern Orthodox women do every day: get dressed and go out of the house. Sarah’s conversion was reversed because Tropper heard that she had worn pants, and occasionally—only when shopping outside the Jewish neighborhood—she had left her hair uncovered.
So there you have it. If this story is true, a convert was stripped of her Judaism even though she was observant of Shabbos, Kashrus, and Taharas HaMishpacha. And so too were her post conversion children stripped of their Judasim.
That is how her husband reported it. According to one of the authors who contacted me - attempts to reach Rabbi Tropper for comment were unsuccessful. He apparently refuses to deny or confirm any part of the report. And as if that weren’t enough there is another horror story about EJF and Rabbi Tropper reported there as well. Read it and weep!
I hope this story isn’t true. I hope that if a conversion was revoked that it was for some more serious violation which is missing from the story. Or that this report is some sort of hoax perpetrated by people out to ‘get’ EJF. But I fear it is true. A fear based on EJF’s attitude and behavior till now. Where will all this end?" (As of 6 Apr 09, this post had 115 comments)
And finally, a final post here in full that connects itself directly to Rabbi Dr. Eidensohn's blog and its issues and concerns, but please note it was posted about one and a half years ago (November 19, 2007) and some of the relevant facts and personalities have changed although the main line is correct:
5) "The Eternal Jewish Family (November 19, 2007)
There has been a proclamation issued by the Edah Hacharedis which its authors wish to disseminate and which has been made available to the public by Rabbi Daniel Eidensohn. It basically condemns a new organization that deals with Halachic conversions called The Eternal Jewish Family (EJF). The proclamation has already appeared on many blogs including Hirhurim (scroll down to Saturday night’s post to see it).
Most Orthodox Jews know by now that ‘Halachic conversions’ is one of the hottest topics being debated in the Torah world. That is because it is fraught with so many problems.
The concern most strongly driving the controversy is the massive number of Jews from the former Soviet Union who have immigrated to Israel. Many of them are intermarried. If the non Jewish spouse is a woman, their children are not considered in any way halachicly Jewish. That has resulted in tons of non Jews who think they are Jews living in Israel.
To a smaller extent this is true in the US too. Non Halachic conversions performed by Reform and Conservative rabbis leave non Jews believing they are Jews. And so too their children.
Additionally there have been many conversions done even by Orthodox rabbis that have come into question. The Rabbanut Beis Din in Jerusalem, now controlled by Charedi Rabbis has recently created quite a storm by no longer automatically accepting conversions done by rabbis belonging to the Rabbinical Council of America ( RCA).
The primary concern about some of the RCA conversions is a laxity on the key conversion requirement for the convert to sincerely promise they will observe Mitzvos. EJF was created in part to rectify this by standardizing all Orthodox conversions and requiring a no nonsense acceptance of doing Mitzvos. This was the brainchild of Rabbi Leib Tropper, of Yeshivas Kol Torah in Monsey, a Baal Teshuva Yeshiva.
Rabbi Tropper has managed to gain the participation of many rabbinic leaders of all types including leaders like Rav Elyashiv (by proxy of his representative Rabbi Nachum Eisenstein), Rabbi Dovid Feinstein and Rabbi Hershel Shachter, That is how important this issue is viewed and how accepted EJF has become as the vehicle to get this accomplished.
But... Rabbi Tropper also has as a goal of actively seeking out children of non Jewish mothers and placing them in religious Jewish schools with the hope that they will eventually convert. This is not a proper Halachic approach. Rabbi Moshe Sternbuch had written a Teshuva about it a while back. That Teshuva generated some controversy here because it seemed in opposition to a practice employed by NCSY under the authority of Agudah Dayan, Rabbi Shmuel Fuerst.
NCSY by its nature will very often have teens participate who are not Halachicly Jewish... but think that they are. Their mothers were converted non-Halachicly by rabbis of non Halachic streams of Judaism.
Rabbi Fuerst based on what he had clearly been told by his Rebbe Rav Moshe Feinstein, has Paskined that NCSY can actively encourage these children to continue participating in NCSY and to seek a proper conversion. Rav Moshe held that by not encouraging these youngsters to convert they would none the less continue believing they were Jewish and seek to marry other Jews That would actually increase inter-marriage in Klal Yisroel.
It is not clear whether Rabbi Sternbuch disagrees with this policy.
In any case, Rabbi Sternbuch has gotten the Edah HaCharedis rabbis on board with his Psak and has come out with a proclamation de-legitimizing EJF.
This is the germane paragraph:
Because of the dire consequences of intermarriage, there was a strong barrier that prevented many from intermarrying. However now that the consequence of exclusion from the Jewish people has been removed - this motivation not to intermarry has been lost. Consequently these intermarried couples and their children remain amongst the Jewish people. This results in their non-Jewish children being accepted into religious schools out of the hope that they will eventually convert.
It should be stated that in his original Psak, Rabbi Sternbuch does permit converting children of an intermarriage when they come to us of their own volition.
It seems from this proclamation which is basically a re-statement of Rabbi Sternbuch’s earlier Psak, that the reason for not allowing seeking converts from intermarried couples is that it is deterrent to intermarriage. The question remains about whether he would apply it to NCSY. Would he use the same rationale of deterrence to simply reject those NCSYers who are products of an intermarriage? Or would he consider them as coming of their own volition? That is unclear and the controversy remains.
There is another issue here. It is very surprising that Rav Sternbuch would urge rabbis not to participate in this event considering that a man he venerates, Rav Elyashiv is participating. Can it be that he sees Rabbi Eisenstein as an invalid representative of Rav Elyashiv? Or is he disagreeing with Rav Elyashiv on this matter? Or is Rav Elyashiv unaware of this component? If so, why is that? Do they not speak to each other?
In my view the controversy created by EJF is so great that de-legitimizing it is a good thing. The controversy was created by Rabbi Eisenstien. He wanted only ‘believers’ to qualify as a Dayan... a judge on the new conversion Beis Din. The conversion court system that would result after the process of conversion be standardized. It would require that rabbis not have heretical beliefs. Rabbi Eisenstein wanted to make clear that believers in an ancient universe disqualify them from serving on a conversion Beis Din.
Some people actually claim that Rabbi Eisenstein said they are actual heretics if they believe this. That isn’t clear. What is clear is that he is constantly doing things to alienate Jews he doesn’t agree with. And using an EJF platform where many rabbibnic leaders were in attendance gave him a broad pulpit to do so. And since he is Rav Elyashiv’s representative. It was a bully pulpit.
It is ironic that the Edah has condemned EJF. They probably agree with Rabbi Eisenstein’s views about the ‘hersey’ of an ancient universe. But whatever the reason, I’m glad they did it. If what comes out of such an organization can so contribute to the divide in Klal Yisroel it deserves to go into the ash bin of history." (As of 6 Apr 09, this post had 89 comments).
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