R' Tropper - proselytizing non-Jewish spouse is necessary for Jewish spouse to be observant
Regarding R' Tropper's rationale for what he is doing - please refer to my post from last January in which I translated an interivew with R' Tropper which had been published in Mishpacha Magazine.
"It is necessary to permit the forbidden in order that a Jew might be observant."
Of course we must not limit this to only the sin of forbidden relations with a Gentile.
All forbidden relations are permitted equally. Homosexuality, adultery, incest, pedophilia, molesting little girls, its all permitted by our Rabbis now.
Do we also find heterim for the "observant" Jew to devise Ponzi schemes. Embezzlement? Tax Evasion? Welfare fraud?
Adultery? Leave your wife and ten kids for a rich beautiful young woman you are "makaroving"? No problem!
How much do I need to pay my Rabbi for absolution of my sins?
"It is necessary to permit the forbidden in order that a Jew might be observant."
Of course we must not limit this to only the sin of forbidden relations with a Gentile. ------------------ You are overreacting and overgeneralizing. It is fairly standard in kiruv that a person will not change overnight. Therefore in the transition to observance it is assumed he/she will continue to violate various halachos. Couples whho do not keep taharas mishpacha or Shabbos - are still allowed in kiruv programs.
It is ironic though that R' Tropper's new guidelines for kiruv seems to say that it is all or nothing. This seems characteristic of R' Tropper - to go in two opposite directions at the same time. For geirus he is raising standards while creating leniencies of proselytizing.
The issue though is whether this should apply to intermarried couples. According to R' Eliashiv they should simply be ostracized.
I asked you various questions (besides the other posts I sent today...in response to attacks made here.. but...) and you have not addressed them or answered:
Where did R. Elyashiv state that we ostracize intermarried couples where the Jew is a Tinok Shenishbah? Nothing about this is addressed in the letter of Rav ELyashiv as you presented from Rav Efrati (besides that R. Tropper has a leeter by the son in law of HaRAv Elyashiv Rav Zilberstein that states that one can or should help those intermarried couples who want to return).
2) YOur pojnt that there is an "irony" is quite simply understood, as we find similar questions in many teshuvot: For instnace, there is an issue of "Gerut leshem ishut" or "hanitan al hanochrit" where there is an issur derabbanan to marry a convert whom one has been married to before the conversion (and there is a pohibition to covnert for the sake of marriage); yet as we see in the posskim, they find many leniencies to help those who seek to return and waive this issur derrabanan so that they live with a jewish lady rather than a non jewish one and they return to a jewish way of life.
Likewise and kal vechomer: for there is no clear "issur" derabanan not to proselytize; it is only the standard of conversion not to proselityze and a seder in conversion. So why is it "ironic" when Gedoyley Haposskim (like Rav "Elyashiv (according to Rav Zilbersetien) and Rav Shechter, Rav Vosner, Rav Kook, And other leading rabbis to be leneinet over this issue but not over standards of gerut! because when kabbalat hamitvot is absent there is a lack of THE ESSENCE OF CONVERSION! ie. there is NO conversion! without it. So, therefore Rav Elyaashiv and others who were meikil on many aspects in gerut were stringent on kabbalat hamitzvot!
4)Which leads one to the letter by the BaDAtz: Their opposition was not the mere proselytizing per se; but that this is connected to "pikpuk in gerut" "nissuey tarovet" . So when one rails against one group only, when in fact there are numerous rabbis and dayanim who perform the same type of gerut done by EJf , but nuch worse as they do these "conversions" without kabbalat hamitzvot when they are a greater concern as they remain goyim adn the lead to intermarriage is much greater and the introduction to nissuey taarovet much greater, it is mind boggling that the one who avoids many of the problems is selected to be blamed when many fake and fraudulent rabbis are given a carte blanche by not openly criticizing them as EJf is being criticized!?!?
While some posts and comments mention that Tropper trade is keiruv it is necessary to remind people that Tropper results in keiruv were disastrous. While every keiruv professional has his failures none are colossal as Tropper’s
We should never forget Gideon Busch, a promising top medical school student whose Tropper convinced to drop out of medical school to join his yeshiva only to expel him later . Gideon was subsequently gunned down by the NYPD.
As Keiruv Professional Tropper tells his talmidim to cut their contact with their family if the family does not become observant. When couples have observance differences (As it is often the case in BT couples) Tropper tells the more observant spouse to divorce the less observant spouse.
Now in his new role as the geirus enforcer he has horror stories as well. One modern Orthodox woman had her conversion revoked by Tropper and Rabinovitz because she sometimes did not cover her hair. For Tropper cohabiting with a modern orthodox woman is probably worst than cohabiting with a shiksa.
Currently he is threatening to revoke the conversion of another woman who wants to go to a nursing school, the Touro college program which actually caters to Orthodox students. Tropper is not likely to permit any of his students or converts to go for higher education even it is Orthodox school such as Touro.
Tropper should be banned of being involved with anything which resemble chinuch. He probably will do better working on his rabbi Akiva Eger Hagaot kuntros.
I wonder if rabbi Tropper objection to nursing school is because the woman in question is probably married to a jew and medical school will add stress to the marriage or he will object to even post seminary girl going to Touro (nursing or otherwise)
"It is necessary to permit the forbidden in order that a Jew might be observant."
ReplyDeleteOf course we must not limit this to only the sin of forbidden relations with a Gentile.
All forbidden relations are permitted equally. Homosexuality, adultery, incest, pedophilia, molesting little girls, its all permitted by our Rabbis now.
Do we also find heterim for the "observant" Jew to devise Ponzi schemes. Embezzlement? Tax Evasion? Welfare fraud?
Adultery? Leave your wife and ten kids for a rich beautiful young woman you are "makaroving"? No problem!
How much do I need to pay my Rabbi for absolution of my sins?
Kesef Kashers Kulam.
"It is necessary to permit the forbidden in order that a Jew might be observant."
ReplyDeleteOf course we must not limit this to only the sin of forbidden relations with a Gentile.
------------------
You are overreacting and overgeneralizing. It is fairly standard in kiruv that a person will not change overnight. Therefore in the transition to observance it is assumed he/she will continue to violate various halachos. Couples whho do not keep taharas mishpacha or Shabbos - are still allowed in kiruv programs.
It is ironic though that R' Tropper's new guidelines for kiruv seems to say that it is all or nothing. This seems characteristic of R' Tropper - to go in two opposite directions at the same time. For geirus he is raising standards while creating leniencies of proselytizing.
The issue though is whether this should apply to intermarried couples. According to R' Eliashiv they should simply be ostracized.
I asked you various questions (besides the other posts I sent today...in response to attacks made here.. but...) and you have not addressed them or answered:
ReplyDeleteWhere did R. Elyashiv state that we ostracize intermarried couples where the Jew is a Tinok Shenishbah? Nothing about this is addressed in the letter of Rav ELyashiv as you presented from Rav Efrati (besides that R. Tropper has a leeter by the son in law of HaRAv Elyashiv Rav Zilberstein that states that one can or should help those intermarried couples who want to return).
2) YOur pojnt that there is an "irony" is quite simply understood, as we find similar questions in many teshuvot: For instnace, there is an issue of "Gerut leshem ishut" or "hanitan al hanochrit" where there is an issur derabbanan to marry a convert whom one has been married to before the conversion (and there is a pohibition to covnert for the sake of marriage); yet as we see in the posskim, they find many leniencies to help those who seek to return and waive this issur derrabanan so that they live with a jewish lady rather than a non jewish one and they return to a jewish way of life.
Likewise and kal vechomer: for there is no clear "issur" derabanan not to proselytize; it is only the standard of conversion not to proselityze and a seder in conversion. So why is it "ironic" when Gedoyley Haposskim (like Rav "Elyashiv (according to Rav Zilbersetien) and Rav Shechter, Rav Vosner, Rav Kook, And other leading rabbis to be leneinet over this issue but not over standards of gerut! because when kabbalat hamitvot is absent there is a lack of THE ESSENCE OF CONVERSION! ie. there is NO conversion! without it. So, therefore Rav Elyaashiv and others who were meikil on many aspects in gerut were stringent on kabbalat hamitzvot!
4)Which leads one to the letter by the BaDAtz: Their opposition was not the mere proselytizing per se; but that this is connected to "pikpuk in gerut" "nissuey tarovet" . So when one rails against one group only, when in fact there are numerous rabbis and dayanim who perform the same type of gerut done by EJf , but nuch worse as they do these "conversions" without kabbalat hamitzvot when they are a greater concern as they remain goyim adn the lead to intermarriage is much greater and the introduction to nissuey taarovet much greater, it is mind boggling that the one who avoids many of the problems is selected to be blamed when many fake and fraudulent rabbis are given a carte blanche by not openly criticizing them as EJf is being criticized!?!?
While some posts and comments mention that Tropper trade is keiruv it is necessary to remind people that Tropper results in keiruv were disastrous. While every keiruv professional has his failures none are colossal as Tropper’s
ReplyDeleteWe should never forget Gideon Busch, a promising top medical school student whose Tropper convinced to drop out of medical school to join his yeshiva only to expel him later . Gideon was subsequently gunned down by the NYPD.
As Keiruv Professional Tropper tells his talmidim to cut their contact with their family if the family does not become observant. When couples have observance differences (As it is often the case in BT couples) Tropper tells the more observant spouse to divorce the less observant spouse.
Now in his new role as the geirus enforcer he has horror stories as well. One modern Orthodox woman had her conversion revoked by Tropper and Rabinovitz because she sometimes did not cover her hair. For Tropper cohabiting with a modern orthodox woman is probably worst than cohabiting with a shiksa.
Currently he is threatening to revoke the conversion of another woman who wants to go to a nursing school, the Touro college program which actually caters to Orthodox students. Tropper is not likely to permit any of his students or converts to go for higher education even it is Orthodox school such as Touro.
Tropper should be banned of being involved with anything which resemble chinuch. He probably will do better working on his rabbi Akiva Eger Hagaot kuntros.
I wonder if rabbi Tropper objection to nursing school is because the woman in question is probably married to a jew and medical school will add stress to the marriage or he will object to even post seminary girl going to Touro (nursing or otherwise)
ReplyDelete