Read this PR piece directed at hundreds of thousands mixed-marriage Israelis (mostly the at least 300,000 non-Halachic Russian Jews) very carefully and you will see that nowhere is Rav Nochum Eisenstein's "VAAD HORABBONIM HAOLAMI LEINYONEI GIYUR" or its Bais Din, the Bais Din Legiur on which Rav Eisenstein is a Dayan mentioned in any way.
On the contrary, now it seems that EJF is reaching out to the Religious Zionist establishment because as this ad says that EJF is in a position to help with conversions that will be recognized by the state of Israel and the Israeli Chief Rabbinate.
This ad also refers to Rav Tropper as a "Gaon" another indication that EJF is desperate to make him appear as an ubber-Haredi rav in the face of the already extant truly Haredi challenges to him from the BADATZ, Rav Shternbuch that is in record and the suspicious damning silence lately from Rav Eisenstein and the Vaad HaOlami Le'inyanei Giur.
This ad also cites that EJF is now working with the "HIDABROOT" kiruv organization (see http://www.hidabroot.org/ and http://www.hidabroot.org/en/Site/index.asp ) which is a known front organization for the Belzer Chasidim (and Rav Tropper is known to be close to the present Belzer Rebbe and supposedly seeks out his counsel) because the Belzer Rebbe has encouraged kiruv work over the years and HIDABROOT includes high tech classes over the Internet and live inspiring speakers.
IT WOULD BE INTERESTING TO FIND OUT WHO IS FINANCING HIDABROOT, IT IS SURELY NOT BELZERS, AND IT MAY WELL BE THAT HIDABROOT IS GETTING FINANCING FROM THE SAME SOURCES AS EJF which gives Rabbi Tropper more pieces on the kiruv-giur chessboard to play with Kol Yaakov Yeshiva, Horizons, EJF, Lillian Jean Kaplan Foundation, Ofakim, Hidabroot.
It can't be long now that the simmering split between Rav Eisenstien's Vaad Ha'olami Le'inyanei Giur of which he is chairman versus Rav Tropper and his poly-glot collection of kiruv-giur organizations (which have one thing in common, making him the chief honcho) will go head to head and Rav Tropper will face the same kind of heat from more Charedim as he did from the BADATZ.
It is more than likely that Rav Tropper has more things up his sleeve that are not on public view and that he has rabbonim he is close with like Yeshiva Chaim Berlin's Rav Aharon Schchter with whom he is known to consult behind the scenes and these high level rabbonim may be putting pressure on Rav Eliashiv to keep Rav Eisenstien quiet that in turn takes the pressure off Rav Tropper for now.
Rabbi Tropper is like an oyster in his shell when he has gedolim and rebbes to play with and manipulate that puts him into his element.
But thse kind of political games by and with either the Belzer Rebbe and Rav Aharon Schechter who love Rav Tropper cannot go on forever when, as Rabbi Tropper's messianic complex grows and grows, the threat becomes clear that Rav Tropper is planning to do no less and exactly the same as Rav Drukman and the doomed Neeman Commission on conversions but only this time dressed in a kappotte and a black hat (for men) and sheitels for the women to cover up serious mass proselytizing and a tidal wave of unwanted conversions.
By the way Dr. Eidensohn, you need to specifically indicate and say that this ad appeared on the HIDABROOT website (as you you can tell from the ad's priginal URL at http://www.hidabroot.org/BNRImgDetail.asp?AdvertisementID=129 that you gave ) which gives this ad a serious frame of context and reference point that it is not merely floating somewhere "on the Internet" because HIDABROOT (a new organization not really known at all outside of Israel) is in fact a Haredi kiruv organization under the auspices of Belzer Chasidim and created and run with the personal blessings and approval of the present Belzer Rebbe in Jerusalem, which raises the question, does the Belzer Rebbe now approve of EJF's approach and goals as this ad now implies or would he (the Belzer Rebbe) have a total fit if he knew what was being "broadcast" and manipulated to imply in his name by Rabbi TRopper and EJF through this ad on HIDABROOT's website, and if not why is he allowing this to go forth (that is if he is even aware of the ad and EJF's tie in with HIDABROOT, which he well may be)?
That ad is on few Israeli BT sites. This one is from hidabroot, they have this strange analysis about the movie the Matrix and its kabbalahistic meaning. The name on the ad says מנשה ישראל which seems to be someone in hidabroot.
They actually ask that if you know a mixed couple send them to that seminar. You do not even need to be interested in giyur just be married to non Jewish spouse.
Why hidabroot will join ofakim, I guess some money changted hands.
This hype of publicity to smear R Tropper at all costs is really irrational. It seems clearly that there are other issues at stake for which he is and buddies are going for this rampage (accusing Belzer Rebbe and other special people to be bullied by people with bad intentions.
What really counts is: Did irrational publicity speak with R. Feinstein who backs R. Tropper to find out why R. Feinstein is behind R. Tropper?
And most importatnly: What really seems to bother some of the erratic outbursts against R. Troper is the fact that he has raised awareness for higher standards in conversion and conversions by Rabbis like R. H Bomzer are revealed to be the ral sham and phony for the mass fake conversions that this man performed for so many years. The fact that many Rabbonim aligned to quash the factory of conversions by R. Bomzer and some others who also have financial interests seems to be what is really behind this smear campign.
Roni says: "What really seems to bother some of the erratic outbursts against R. Troper is the fact that he has raised awareness for higher standards in conversion"
RaP: This is so silly. Does anyone really think that Rabbi Tropper has "has raised awareness for higher standards in conversion" over the years? What stupidity, insult and condescension to all the hundreds, if not thousands of Charedi rabbis in Kiruv, Kollel families, Jewish Day School rebbeim who are alumni of Charedi American and Israeli yeshivas who are just as serious and commited to Halacha as Rabbi Tropper.
Rabbi Tropper is not the only person on this planet who is aware of the serious ramifications of shaky conversions. We are not talking about the Modern Orthodox rabbis here who continue to do Rabbi Bomzer's conversion work through their RCA/Modern Orthodox affiliated Batei Din across America and many rabbis the Religious Zionist Chief rabbinate in Israel.
So along comes Rabbi Tropper riding on his EJF-pony like a proverbial Don Quixote tilting at his conversion windmills, with Dr. Tom Kaplan as Sancho Panza at his side. Who asked him and who needed him? Why can't he just stay home at his Kol Yaakov Yeshiva in Monsey NY and preach to his bochurim instead of now getting into the geirus business and running around the world alienating people and not really doing much for geirus?
Rabbi Tropper/EJF is not a Bais Din and one way or another all the Batei Din of the world do their work quite nicely without him thank you very much. The real action and policy direction usually comes out of Israel where there are official rabbinic power strucstures that can act with or against each other. Thus Rav Sherman who is actually with the Israeli Chief Rabbinate can rule against Rabbi Drukman, and it becomes a case of onehighre Bais Din trying to negate the work of another lower Bais Din, or like the BADATZ ruling that all Batei Din and rabbonim should stay away from EJF and Rabbi Tropper's flawed agenda for mass geirus for gentiles married to Jews (that was based on strict Halachah and was definitely not based on a "smear campaign" and which he simply ignored) but to claim that any of the meetings, seminars and conferences and weekends that EJF sponsors have any Halachic or even practical effect is pure hokum and a huge stretch of the imagination.
Sure, it is fun and novel for rabbis who have to run around raising money to feed their familes and keep their bare-bones yeshivas and poor paying jobs for staff, to be flown to fancy hotels, get served fine foods, hear a few speeches, mutter hear-hear and yasher koach, and then everybody goes home (and nothing much really comes of it except that Rabbi Tropper gets to sit on the dais with yet more choshuve rabbis and gets to yell his point of view that few agree with in practice at the audience at high volume) all thanks to the money EJF gets from Dr. Tom Kaplan's founadtion and business but what effect does it have and does it really frighten anyone to stop doing or start doing anything? Not really.
The world of Dayanim and Batei Din for giur is the same with or without Rabbi Tropper and EJF and he just does not seem to get that. Based on his megalomania he assumes that the world now revolves around him because he has all this money from the Lillian Jean Kaplan Foundation stamming from Dr. Tom Kaplan's multi-billion $ Lior Energy company around him, but he is totally deluding himself. This is not the "presidency" that Obama was able to buy himself with the billions of $ from outside sources, many of whom are deluded idealistic Jews supporting yet another person with a messiah complex.
"and conversions by Rabbis like R. H Bomzer are revealed to be the ral sham and phony for the mass fake conversions that this man performed for so many years."
RaP: So are you saying that Rabbi Tropper took it on himself to fight and destroy Rabbi Bomzer, a respcted rabbi in both Young Israel and Lubavicth circles (the late Lubavitcher Rebbe gave Rabbi Bomzer his personal blessings) as he is now also trying to fight and destory Aish haTorah and its leader Rabbi Noach Weinberg? Every job has its occupational hazrds. Their are a few notable failures that Rabbi Tropper had with his kiruv work over his long history (including own known gaping personal failings) and some bad eggs came out his programs, but he is not held accounatble for that. Rabbi Bomzer is not unique and he can't be blamed for every conversion that went off the rails. Ask the poster Jersey girl on this blog who claims to have worked with converts, that it is basically the norm that most converts slip in their commitments compared to the day of their actual conversion, and it will just as surely happen to the hundreds of thousands of planned mass conversions that EJF is planning to facilitate.
So that any rabbi involved with geirus knows this obvious phenomenon and that is why ANY attempts at mass geirus, such as those now pushed by Rabbi Tropper via EJF MUST be forcefully and clearly opposed, fought and rejected just as much as Rabbi Tropper opposed Rabbi Bomzer because the road ahead spells disaster. It is best to let the fakesters alone and then their work will be known as fake, but to claim that there are now "higher standards" to fight for and impose by dint of a campaign of terror against rabbis who don't see things the Rabbi Tropper my-way-or-the-highway way that masquerades as a PR campaign by EJF makes the cure far worse than the disease for anyone with eyes in their heads.
For example, Rav Moshe Feinstein ztk"l, in dealing with non-Orthodox Jews or marginally religious Jews, paskened that questions of mamzerus and yichus about children are pardoxically lessened when the original officiating clergy of the parents were married via Reform and Conservative clergy because the Reform and Conservative rabbis' marriages were not Halachically valid, therefore the marriages are not Halachically valid and many subsequent issues are avoided. Not so in the case where there was an insistance, short-sightedly based on a FALSE FRUMKEIT REQUIREMENT that everything be done Orthodox or Halachic or to meet all the higher standards and the guidelines of the Shulchan Oruch forcing or foisting it upon Jews who don't fully subscribe to it inwardly and outwardly that it creates Halachic facts and results in more serious harm such as mamzerus and agunas for whom their are no real solutions (unlike if they had been left as Reform and Conservative ceremonies)
But now in Rabbi Tropper's case involving non-religious Jews and gentiles whose commitment to Yiddishkeit is very shaky who seemingly wanting to convert and for whom Halachic connversions are given and down the line they get divorced and drop out of full observance or worse return to being goyim (and such cases are known to most rabbis), can you imagine the terror and chaos that that will produce when suddenly children's yichus is callenged when it is revealed that their parents conversions were now in doubt and that black hat and shietl and all they are now goyim and that they need new conversions not to mention what will their genuine Halachic spouses do?
Yet Rabbi Tropper wants to do this on a mass scale when he should leave things alone because conversions cannot be done like factory line assemblies (ironically, the very thing he accuses Rabbi Bomzer of) but the only road is the slow road on a case by case basis that when reliable Orthodox or Haredi rabbonim are involved they can moniter each converting individual slowly but surely.
Klal Yisroel is under no obligation to undo the messes of history overnight, but Rabbi Tropper's messianic complex gives him that "superman" feeling that he can move mountains when he is just deluding himself and wasting everyone time and Tom Kaplan's money that is the real opiate here.
"The fact that many Rabbonim aligned to quash the factory of conversions by R. Bomzer and some others who also have financial interests"
RaP: Rabbi Tropper's high-tech PR yet Haredi blitz and spinmeistering using Lubcim and others to push the conversions of hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of gentiles married to Jews is the ULTIMATE "factory of conversions" that is hundreds of thousands if not millions of times WORSE than ANYTHING Rabbi Bomzer or anyone like him could dream up! It's a nightmare to even think of what Rabbi Tropper and EJF have up their sleaves.
Even the American RCA does not have a program like Rabbi Tropper's EJF, and they do many conversions through their Batei Din, but they are not on a wild campaign or goose chase to pull in any interfaith couple that reads an ad online or wherever to come to an all expenses paid seminar like EJF does.
Rabbi Norman Lamm of YU tried years ago to set up an interdenominational effort with the Reform and Conservatives doing some teaching of converts but the conversion would be done by Orthodox rabbis which went nowhere and is for now mercifully defunct. It was a misbegotten and still-born hybrid. Then the Neeman Commission in Israel tried to follow a similar idea and it has had and still has the support of all Israeli Prime Ministers, but it never gets anywwhere because basically the Haredim in the Israeli political system rightly block it and see it for the shallow sham that it is. Then there was the very Religious Zionist efforts Rabbi Drukman and a few others who went around Israel and Europe organizing conversions that lacked seriousness and they were recently shot down by the High Court of the Israeli Chief Rabbinate. Then Rabbi Tropper's and the EJF's glossy PR powered agendas were themselves shot down by no less that the Eidah HaChareidis' Bais Din the BADATZ (in combination with losing the initial tentative goodwill of the Modern Orthdox rabbinate in America and its YU/RCA establishement who dumped Rabbi Tropper and will have nothing to do with EJF in any way after they were insulted publicly by Rav Nochum Eisenstein of the Bais Din LeInyanei Giur in Israel that has the backing of Rav Eliashiv) yet Rabbi Tropper ever the eager flying cavalryman that he is, like a Don Quixote, charges forth into the geirus minefield with his self-appointed mission to get all the goyim who are married to Jews to be convinced that they should be converted en masse according to the strictest Halachah, and if that is not Quixotic, if not delusional, then nothing is.
"seems to be what is really behind this smear campign."
RaP: What a joke, and there is no "smear campaign" and if anyone is an expert at smear campigns ask all the people who are upset about the genuine smear campaign that Rabbi Tropper conducted against Rabb Slifkin to get Slifkin's books banned. And as for accustaions about people doing things for "financial interests" watch out with that one because it's a sword that cuts both ways.
Rabbi Tropper is no innocent babe in the woods and were it not for the very hefty and lucrative hefty backing he and EJF get from Dr. Tom Kaplan's "financial interests" he would not have the power to run around the world and dangle all the financial carrots he does in front of hundreds respectable rabbonim to come and listen to his diatribes at contrived convenstions.
A word about Rav Reuven feinstein. He is close with Rabbi Tropper and his yeshiva also needs financial backing. He is not known as a dayan who deals on a daily basis with the challenges of the tidal wave of gentiles married to Jews. He says shiurim in his yeshiva and through Rabbi Tropper he gets nice donations, that is about it. When Rabbi Reuven Feinstein will set up and run his own Bais Din for conversions come back and tell us. Rabbi Tropper is an expert manipulator who knows how to play one gadol off of another and anyone who does not see that is a fool.
It is overwhelming clear that you on a rampage campaign against R. Tropper and the more you attack every single person associated with him an even attack Rav REuven Feinstein shows your even more your irrational campaign.
While I unerstan the reservations against R. Tropper an his plans, your voice of opposition shows that there is more at stake for his critics that are far from "leshem shamayim.
With regards to Rabbi Bomzer (which i can clearly see that what bothers you is that R. Tropper an many Rabbonim that participate in EJF attack the fake an phony conversions of people like R. H Bomzer), he is known in many circles for his false conversions where he converts people 1) knowing ahead of time that they are not interrested to keep torah and mitzvot (not only that they have lapses in the future); do not keep shabbat, kashrut, taharat ha mishpacha from the very outset. 3) Actually the rabbanut over ten years ago has written that his conversion needs bedikah! for his reputation is actually very well known, an most importantly his fees are also known!
Continue to defend him and other similar rabbis an attack vehemently Rav Reuven Feinstein and others with such disparagment and everyone will see clearly publicity's agenda!
Rabbi Bomzer is not unique and he can't be blamed for every conversion that went off the rails.
An addmittion from tropper's camp (rony) that one of tropper major obsessions is rabbi Bomzer ( the other obsessions are rabbi Noach Weinberg, chabbad and MO, all he set up to destroy).
At least rabbi Bomzer does not pay people or chase people (like tropper does) to convert with him.
There are testimonies that EJF own beis din (pinchus rabinovitz) asks the convert few questions while bomzer beis din grill the for a half an hour or more.
Tropper also known to grab candidates who are schedule to go to rabbi bomzer and pay them to go with him.
It is funny that the commenter complains about "financial interest" because with out money tropper would still be ankown rosh yeshiva of small bt yeshiva.
One more thing bothers me about this EJF. It seems like Rabbi Tropper has the backing of Rabbi A. Schechter and Rabbi Feinstein. Have you spoken to either of them to find out why they back him? Is it really like RAP asserts that it is a money issue? I find it hard to believe that Rabbi S. and Rabbi F. would stoop so low.
One more thing bothers me about this EJF. It seems like Rabbi Tropper has the backing of Rabbi A. Schechter and Rabbi Feinstein. Have you spoken to either of them to find out why they back him? Is it really like RAP asserts that it is a money issue? I find it hard to believe that Rabbi S. and Rabbi F. would stoop so low. ================= I don't think you have the context quite right. Nobody is saying that these or other involved rabbis are doing thing which they think violate their principles for the sake of money. No one is going to a rosh yeshiva and saying - if you do will violate halacha I will give you big bucks.
The issue is much more subtle. I would suggest you search through this blog for the Achiezer 26 and Achiezer 28 - twenty years separated these two statements.
To just asking who says: "Is it really like RAP asserts that it is a money issue?"
If it's not about money, or potential money, then what is it about?
Do these rosh yeshivas get involved in all the other blood and guts effecting Klal Yisroel issues like in kashrus, gittin, agunas, safrus, taharas for dead people etc etc?
It is usually about power or money if they get involved in something as messy as geirus issues.
Unless it's life and death issues for their own oilem, they will never dirty their hands to get involved with such "practical rabbinics" matters unless it comes flying at them and lands in their laps as a shayla from a talmid or backer, or they are either dragged into it or someone is dangling a big carrot in fron of them and Rabbi Tropper is a world class expert in playing all these types of personalities and things to his perverted power-hungry advantage, covered up with frumkeit and other such "Haredi-politically-correct" dressings.
"At least rabbi Bomzer does not pay people or chase people (like tropper does) to convert with him.
But he does ask for the highest fees! An occasional 18,000$ is not out of the question if the case warrants it.
"while bomzer beis din grill the for a half an hour or more".
My foot! He grills nothing; he converts people who are not interested in keeping shabbat, kashrut and taharat hamiushpacha. Especially when the propsective convert has some ca$h.
"Have you spoken to either of them to find out why they back him?"
They haven't spoken to them. They haven't recorded any source who state why they support them. They woul besmirch hunreds of rabbis who to EJF's conventions as "fressers" anand money grabbers, but would not have the same honesty to acknowlledge that the Rabbis are concerned by other money fressers who for years have mae conversion their bussines and means of making a living!
"I don't think you have the context quite right. Nobody is saying that these or other involved rabbis are doing thing which they think violate their principles for the sake of money".
So why that don't you challenge the publicitities publicity where he actually insinuates an at times states so explicitly?
No one is going to a rosh yeshiva and saying - if you do will violate halacha I will give you big bucks.
"The issue is much more subtle. I would suggest you search through this blog for the Achiezer 26 and Achiezer 28 - twenty years separated these two statements".
EXactly! look for those responsa and you will see why there was and is a need to create an organization like EJF for there were/are numerous charlatans (some of them hailed in this blogs as good conversion rabbis) who made hunreds and maybe thousands (collectively) of fake covnersions where there was no kabbalat hamitzvot.
Look, even the critics of EJF, or even good rabbis who do not presently associate with the EJf (like HaRav H. Shechter) felt the need and importance for such an organization and part of his alignment with that idea was the chaotic state of conversions where they converted without any serious intention to keep torah an mitzvot and diid not show one iota that they would want change their lfiestyle.
"Do these rosh yeshivas get involved in all the other blood and guts effecting Klal Yisroel issues like in kashrus, gittin, agunas, safrus, taharas for dead people etc etc?"
Bobeh maasseys! Gerus and fake GErus made by your buddies and friends is an issue of life and death for klal yisroel! Moreover, it is actually not so popular to fight with etractors and be smeared by them as money fressers (when they are the guilty ones on this issue). Iti s about time that someone, if noty R. Tropper, maybe some of your budies would roll their sleeves an undo the damage they have done with aligning with fake conversion rabbis and endorsed people who are money fressers and make conversion a means to make living!
"they will never dirty their hands to get involved with such "practical rabbinics" matters unless it comes flying at them a.."
On the contrary, thell this to your buddies and your friends that they should "dirty their hands" in an unpopular issue which involves not making a living in making phony conversions and bring goyim into klal yisroel.
Roni sounds absolutely confused and confusing and at times he appears to be debating his own posts and even making up ones that weren't their in the first place.
Let's try to take a look at poster Roni's latest comments, but it gets confusing because English does not seem to be his first language (unless he is faking it,he may even be Rabbi Tropper himself) and he does not care about noting who and what he is disputing, but here goes:
roni said... "At least rabbi Bomzer does not pay people or chase people (like tropper does) to convert with him."
Roni's response: "But he does ask for the highest fees! An occasional 18,000$ is not out of the question if the case warrants it."
RaP: Honestly I have never been part of a conversion process and I have no idea what the going rates are. If you have solid proof and evidence and problems with Rabbi Bomzer, feel free to let us know, we will eagerly read and examine all the facts and render our non-biased opinion. Does the Shulchan Oruch specify a price for a conversion, or for an aliya in shull or for maftir Yonah on Yom Kippur, or for the salary of a rabbi? There are people who pay tens of thousands of dollars for all sorts of religious honors and services so anything is possible so they may be right and you may be right.
But, again, please note, we do not know any rabbis who do conversions and we have nothing to do with them and we certainly do not support or endorse them, so cut out your false accusations that are just a poor smokescreen for the main subject of Rabbi Tropper's mass efforts under EJF to help convert goyim an issue that is just as bad or worse than what Rabbi Bomzer does.
"while bomzer beis din grill the for a half an hour or more".
Roni says: "My foot! He grills nothing; he converts people who are not interested in keeping shabbat, kashrut and taharat hamiushpacha. Especially when the propsective convert has some ca$h."
RaP: I agree with you, but the subject is not Bomzer our problem is with Tropper. Sorry to tell you but Tropper and Bomzer are in the same boat because there is no such thing as "good conversions" since most of them become unglued in the end. See the Gemar about "kashim gerim kesapachas"!
December 12, 2008 4:22 AM roni said... "Have you spoken to either of them to find out why they back him?"
Roni says: "They haven't spoken to them. They haven't recorded any source who state why they support them. They woul besmirch hunreds of rabbis who to EJF's conventions as "fressers" anand money grabbers, but would not have the same honesty to acknowlledge that the Rabbis are concerned by other money fressers who for years have mae conversion their bussines and means of making a living!"
RaP: Roni calm down. So you are saying that Rabbi Tropper is happy to create a war between entire groups of rabbis. Do you think anyone is going to listen to him or be frightened by him and EJF? No! The Modern Orthodox and the RCA, the very people Tropper wants to influence have written him off and will have nothing to do with him. The Haredim in Israel at the BADATZ have condemned him and the EJF's proposed goals. And now even moderate Haredim in Europe are disgusted by Tropper's yelling at them, like he did recently at the Prague convention of rabbis. And now even Rav Nochum Eisenstein and his Vaad HaOlama Leinyanie Giur and his Bais Din LeInyanei Giur under Rav Eliashiv's auspices seem to be demanding the lead role in the war against false and weak conversions and they want Rabbi Tropper to fall in line behind them and follow what they have to say and not the other way around. Yet Rabbi Tropper does not see all these red lights, and seemingly because he has a messianic complex he fights the world and even is now looking to start civil wars between all the kiruv programs.
Sounds like Rabbi Tropper needs to take chill pills big time and take a leave of absence and or a Sabbatical and take it easy for a year or two and leave this whole geirus busines for others to fight. Harbei Shluchim Yesh Lo LaMakom!
December 12, 2008 4:25 AM Roni said... "I don't think you have the context quite right. Nobody is saying that these or other involved rabbis are doing thing which they think violate their principles for the sake of money".
Roni says: "So why that don't you challenge the publicitities publicity where he actually insinuates an at times states so explicitly?"
RaP: Don't be such an amateur and act dumb, ok? When a rich man flies you out to multiple conventions with all expenses paid weekends and retreats that is already shochad. You cited Rabbi Reuven Feinstein and in that case it is well known that Rabbi Tropper and Rav Reuven Feinstein shlit"a do share some big contributors and backers (not uncommon in the Torah or philanthropic world, so don't starst jumping up and down) with Lower East Side connections. We are not talking about hundreds of rabbis because hundreds of rabbis are not giving Rabbi Tropper their written support. But it is not illogical in such circumstances to ask if Rav Reuven Feinstein is getting a financial benefit somehow or other for his institutions that need it in his support for Rabbi Tropper and the EJF. Please answer the question directly instead of kicking and screaming like an infant to avoid giving a straight answer. Much obliged if you will.
No one is going to a rosh yeshiva and saying - if you do will violate halacha I will give you big bucks.
"The issue is much more subtle. I would suggest you search through this blog for the Achiezer 26 and Achiezer 28 - twenty years separated these two statements".
Roni says: "EXactly! look for those responsa and you will see why there was and is a need to create an organization like EJ"
RaP: It looks like this may be Rabbi Tropper himself answering because he seems to be familar with the Achiezer now.
Roni says: "for there were/are numerous charlatans"
RaP: I agree with you. But two wrongs do not make a right. Rabbi Tropper has his own problems in this regard and who EXACTLY asked him (Eliyahu HaNavi?) to fight all the charlatans in the world, even if he is right?
"(some of them hailed in this blogs as good conversion rabbis)"
RaP: Not by me, nor by Dr. Eidensohn the owner of this blog.
"who made hunreds and maybe thousands (collectively) of fake covnersions where there was no kabbalat hamitzvot."
RaP: Yes, true, and now Rabbi Tropper and EJF want to add to this problem and they fool themselves by thinking that they will have better results than all the other charlatans.
Roni says: "Look, even the critics of EJF, or even good rabbis who do not presently associate with the EJf (like HaRav H. Shechter) felt the need and importance for such an organization"
RaP: Yeah? Like when?
Roni says: "and part of his alignment with that idea was the chaotic state of conversions where they converted without any serious intention to keep torah an mitzvot and diid not show one iota that they would want change their lfiestyle."
RaP: Who asked Rabbi Tropper to get involved when his field was NOT being a dayan nor with conversions. He is plain and simple a dynamic kiruv rabbi who has grown too big for his boots with delusions of granduer unfortunately fueled by the proverbial and literal fool's gold of the Kaplan billions that encourage him when he is facing more and more critics as each day goes by.
December 12, 2008 4:31 AM roni said... RAP "If it's not about money, or potential money, then what is it about?"
Daas TOrah: "Nobody is saying that these or other involved rabbis are doing thing which they think violate their principles for the sake of money".
Roni says: "Are you so blind by your opposition to R Tropper that you do not see that you are not seeing right?"
RaP: Like what? To oppose Rabbi Tropper means that one is "not seeing right"? That is a very funny suggestion don't you think? You can do better than that in such a serious discussion.
December 12, 2008 4:33 AM roni said... "Do these rosh yeshivas get involved in all the other blood and guts effecting Klal Yisroel issues like in kashrus, gittin, agunas, safrus, taharas for dead people etc etc?"
Roni says: "Bobeh maasseys! Gerus and fake GErus made by your buddies and friends is an issue of life and death for klal yisroel!"
RaP: They are not my buddies. I do not have anything to do with geirus or geirus rabbis. So stop making stupid accusations please. There is much that effecets the life and death of Klal Yiroel. How about all the problems with sex abuse that is now coming out into the opne in the frum world? How about the shidduchim and singles crisis, people can't get married and how about the rising divorces and broken homes in th frum world? And you are mssing the point. EVERYONE agrees it's a crisis but what we are disputing is how Rabbi Tropper and EJF want to stop the intermarriage crisis.
You have to face facts and reality that this crisis is coming from secular and non-religious Jews and that until you can convince secular, non-religious and less religious Jews to stay away from false conversions then there will always be TRAGICALLY and UNFORTUNATELY ways for them to find leneient rabbis, as you say, for the right price, and there is nothing Rabbi Tropper or EJF can do stop that that. What can be done is to say that no conversions will be allowed with only the greatest of exceptions for TRUE GEIREI TZEDEK that will come individually to Batei Din and each Bais Din will judge them on their merits BUT NO MASS MOVEMWNTS like EJF.
The problem with Rabbi Tropper is that he has a record of being controversial and many rabbonim feel he is using this whole EJF business just to push his own fame and power.
Roni says: "Moreover, it is actually not so popular to fight with etractors and be smeared by them as money fressers (when they are the guilty ones on this issue)."
RaP: But EJF gets millions from Tom Kaplan as he supports Rabbi Tropper as well with money. So it's easy for Rabbi Tropper to be a hero when he has the Kaplan billions to back him up.
Roni says: "Iti s about time that someone, if noty R. Tropper, maybe some of your budies would roll their sleeves an undo the damage they have done"
RaP: Not sure who you are talking to here because noone here has those kind of buddies. Feel free to fight the whole world like Rabbi Tropper does, he has long lists of enemies, the Modern Orthodox, Aish HaTorah, Lubavitch, Religious Zionists, the BADATZ, and many others. Good luck.
Roni: "with aligning with fake conversion rabbis and endorsed people who are money fressers and make conversion a means to make living!"
RaP: If you know such people we are against them 100% too. I oppose fake conversions and I condemn it when it's done for money which makes it worse. I have fought battles against this kind of fraud and abuse of the conversion process. So please stop throwing false accusations this way.
"they will never dirty their hands to get involved with such "practical rabbinics" matters unless it comes flying at them a.."
Roni says: "On the contrary, thell this to your buddies and your friends that they should "dirty their hands" in an unpopular issue which involves not making a living in making phony conversions and bring goyim into klal yisroel."
RaP: I do not have such friends and never have. It does not help to change the subject either. They are wrong and Rabbi Tropper is wrong, and what he wants to do with EJF is 1000 times worse because he will lead the way for millions of gentiles to be classified as "Halachic Jews" when they are just mass phonies who were sold a false bill of goods by EJF propaganda and hired spinmeisters.
Read this PR piece directed at hundreds of thousands mixed-marriage Israelis (mostly the at least 300,000 non-Halachic Russian Jews) very carefully and you will see that nowhere is Rav Nochum Eisenstein's "VAAD HORABBONIM HAOLAMI LEINYONEI GIYUR" or its Bais Din, the Bais Din Legiur on which Rav Eisenstein is a Dayan mentioned in any way.
ReplyDeleteOn the contrary, now it seems that EJF is reaching out to the Religious Zionist establishment because as this ad says that EJF is in a position to help with conversions that will be recognized by the state of Israel and the Israeli Chief Rabbinate.
This ad also refers to Rav Tropper as a "Gaon" another indication that EJF is desperate to make him appear as an ubber-Haredi rav in the face of the already extant truly Haredi challenges to him from the BADATZ, Rav Shternbuch that is in record and the suspicious damning silence lately from Rav Eisenstein and the Vaad HaOlami Le'inyanei Giur.
This ad also cites that EJF is now working with the "HIDABROOT" kiruv organization (see http://www.hidabroot.org/ and http://www.hidabroot.org/en/Site/index.asp ) which is a known front organization for the Belzer Chasidim (and Rav Tropper is known to be close to the present Belzer Rebbe and supposedly seeks out his counsel) because the Belzer Rebbe has encouraged kiruv work over the years and HIDABROOT includes high tech classes over the Internet and live inspiring speakers.
IT WOULD BE INTERESTING TO FIND OUT WHO IS FINANCING HIDABROOT, IT IS SURELY NOT BELZERS, AND IT MAY WELL BE THAT HIDABROOT IS GETTING FINANCING FROM THE SAME SOURCES AS EJF which gives Rabbi Tropper more pieces on the kiruv-giur chessboard to play with Kol Yaakov Yeshiva, Horizons, EJF, Lillian Jean Kaplan Foundation, Ofakim, Hidabroot.
It can't be long now that the simmering split between Rav Eisenstien's Vaad Ha'olami Le'inyanei Giur of which he is chairman versus Rav Tropper and his poly-glot collection of kiruv-giur organizations (which have one thing in common, making him the chief honcho) will go head to head and Rav Tropper will face the same kind of heat from more Charedim as he did from the BADATZ.
It is more than likely that Rav Tropper has more things up his sleeve that are not on public view and that he has rabbonim he is close with like Yeshiva Chaim Berlin's Rav Aharon Schchter with whom he is known to consult behind the scenes and these high level rabbonim may be putting pressure on Rav Eliashiv to keep Rav Eisenstien quiet that in turn takes the pressure off Rav Tropper for now.
Rabbi Tropper is like an oyster in his shell when he has gedolim and rebbes to play with and manipulate that puts him into his element.
But thse kind of political games by and with either the Belzer Rebbe and Rav Aharon Schechter who love Rav Tropper cannot go on forever when, as Rabbi Tropper's messianic complex grows and grows, the threat becomes clear that Rav Tropper is planning to do no less and exactly the same as Rav Drukman and the doomed Neeman Commission on conversions but only this time dressed in a kappotte and a black hat (for men) and sheitels for the women to cover up serious mass proselytizing and a tidal wave of unwanted conversions.
The hour of reckong is fast approaching.
By the way Dr. Eidensohn, you need to specifically indicate and say that this ad appeared on the HIDABROOT website (as you you can tell from the ad's priginal URL at http://www.hidabroot.org/BNRImgDetail.asp?AdvertisementID=129 that you gave ) which gives this ad a serious frame of context and reference point that it is not merely floating somewhere "on the Internet" because HIDABROOT (a new organization not really known at all outside of Israel) is in fact a Haredi kiruv organization under the auspices of Belzer Chasidim and created and run with the personal blessings and approval of the present Belzer Rebbe in Jerusalem, which raises the question, does the Belzer Rebbe now approve of EJF's approach and goals as this ad now implies or would he (the Belzer Rebbe) have a total fit if he knew what was being "broadcast" and manipulated to imply in his name by Rabbi TRopper and EJF through this ad on HIDABROOT's website, and if not why is he allowing this to go forth (that is if he is even aware of the ad and EJF's tie in with HIDABROOT, which he well may be)?
ReplyDeleteThat ad is on few Israeli BT sites. This one is from hidabroot, they have this strange analysis about the movie the Matrix and its kabbalahistic meaning. The name on the ad says מנשה ישראל which seems to be someone in hidabroot.
ReplyDeleteThey actually ask that if you know a mixed couple send them to that seminar. You do not even need to be interested in giyur just be married to non Jewish spouse.
Why hidabroot will join ofakim, I guess some money changted hands.
BTW, I did not know he has other name Yehuda
This hype of publicity to smear R Tropper at all costs is really irrational. It seems clearly that there are other issues at stake for which he is and buddies are going for this rampage (accusing Belzer Rebbe and other special people to be bullied by people with bad intentions.
ReplyDeleteWhat really counts is: Did irrational publicity speak with R. Feinstein who backs R. Tropper to find out why R. Feinstein is behind R. Tropper?
And most importatnly: What really seems to bother some of the erratic outbursts against R. Troper is the fact that he has raised awareness for higher standards in conversion and conversions by Rabbis like R. H Bomzer are revealed to be the ral sham and phony for the mass fake conversions that this man performed for so many years. The fact that many Rabbonim aligned to quash the factory of conversions by R. Bomzer and some others who also have financial interests seems to be what is really behind this smear campign.
did you not notice the earlier planned geirus RECRUITMENT conference in baltimore see
ReplyDeletehttp://www.eternaljewishfamily.org/images/uploads/Baltimore_Seminar_-_Brochure.pdf
observer said...
ReplyDeletedid you not notice the earlier planned geirus RECRUITMENT conference in baltimore see
=============================
yes see the following post
http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2008/12/ejf-proselytization-seminar-baltimore.html
Roni says: "What really seems to bother some of the erratic outbursts against R. Troper is the fact that he has raised awareness for higher standards in conversion"
ReplyDeleteRaP: This is so silly. Does anyone really think that Rabbi Tropper has "has raised awareness for higher standards in conversion" over the years? What stupidity, insult and condescension to all the hundreds, if not thousands of Charedi rabbis in Kiruv, Kollel families, Jewish Day School rebbeim who are alumni of Charedi American and Israeli yeshivas who are just as serious and commited to Halacha as Rabbi Tropper.
Rabbi Tropper is not the only person on this planet who is aware of the serious ramifications of shaky conversions. We are not talking about the Modern Orthodox rabbis here who continue to do Rabbi Bomzer's conversion work through their RCA/Modern Orthodox affiliated Batei Din across America and many rabbis the Religious Zionist Chief rabbinate in Israel.
So along comes Rabbi Tropper riding on his EJF-pony like a proverbial Don Quixote tilting at his conversion windmills, with Dr. Tom Kaplan as Sancho Panza at his side. Who asked him and who needed him? Why can't he just stay home at his Kol Yaakov Yeshiva in Monsey NY and preach to his bochurim instead of now getting into the geirus business and running around the world alienating people and not really doing much for geirus?
Rabbi Tropper/EJF is not a Bais Din and one way or another all the Batei Din of the world do their work quite nicely without him thank you very much. The real action and policy direction usually comes out of Israel where there are official rabbinic power strucstures that can act with or against each other. Thus Rav Sherman who is actually with the Israeli Chief Rabbinate can rule against Rabbi Drukman, and it becomes a case of onehighre Bais Din trying to negate the work of another lower Bais Din, or like the BADATZ ruling that all Batei Din and rabbonim should stay away from EJF and Rabbi Tropper's flawed agenda for mass geirus for gentiles married to Jews (that was based on strict Halachah and was definitely not based on a "smear campaign" and which he simply ignored) but to claim that any of the meetings, seminars and conferences and weekends that EJF sponsors have any Halachic or even practical effect is pure hokum and a huge stretch of the imagination.
Sure, it is fun and novel for rabbis who have to run around raising money to feed their familes and keep their bare-bones yeshivas and poor paying jobs for staff, to be flown to fancy hotels, get served fine foods, hear a few speeches, mutter hear-hear and yasher koach, and then everybody goes home (and nothing much really comes of it except that Rabbi Tropper gets to sit on the dais with yet more choshuve rabbis and gets to yell his point of view that few agree with in practice at the audience at high volume) all thanks to the money EJF gets from Dr. Tom Kaplan's founadtion and business but what effect does it have and does it really frighten anyone to stop doing or start doing anything? Not really.
The world of Dayanim and Batei Din for giur is the same with or without Rabbi Tropper and EJF and he just does not seem to get that. Based on his megalomania he assumes that the world now revolves around him because he has all this money from the Lillian Jean Kaplan Foundation stamming from Dr. Tom Kaplan's multi-billion $ Lior Energy company around him, but he is totally deluding himself. This is not the "presidency" that Obama was able to buy himself with the billions of $ from outside sources, many of whom are deluded idealistic Jews supporting yet another person with a messiah complex.
"and conversions by Rabbis like R. H Bomzer are revealed to be the ral sham and phony for the mass fake conversions that this man performed for so many years."
RaP: So are you saying that Rabbi Tropper took it on himself to fight and destroy Rabbi Bomzer, a respcted rabbi in both Young Israel and Lubavicth circles (the late Lubavitcher Rebbe gave Rabbi Bomzer his personal blessings) as he is now also trying to fight and destory Aish haTorah and its leader Rabbi Noach Weinberg? Every job has its occupational hazrds. Their are a few notable failures that Rabbi Tropper had with his kiruv work over his long history (including own known gaping personal failings) and some bad eggs came out his programs, but he is not held accounatble for that. Rabbi Bomzer is not unique and he can't be blamed for every conversion that went off the rails. Ask the poster Jersey girl on this blog who claims to have worked with converts, that it is basically the norm that most converts slip in their commitments compared to the day of their actual conversion, and it will just as surely happen to the hundreds of thousands of planned mass conversions that EJF is planning to facilitate.
So that any rabbi involved with geirus knows this obvious phenomenon and that is why ANY attempts at mass geirus, such as those now pushed by Rabbi Tropper via EJF MUST be forcefully and clearly opposed, fought and rejected just as much as Rabbi Tropper opposed Rabbi Bomzer because the road ahead spells disaster. It is best to let the fakesters alone and then their work will be known as fake, but to claim that there are now "higher standards" to fight for and impose by dint of a campaign of terror against rabbis who don't see things the Rabbi Tropper my-way-or-the-highway way that masquerades as a PR campaign by EJF makes the cure far worse than the disease for anyone with eyes in their heads.
For example, Rav Moshe Feinstein ztk"l, in dealing with non-Orthodox Jews or marginally religious Jews, paskened that questions of mamzerus and yichus about children are pardoxically lessened when the original officiating clergy of the parents were married via Reform and Conservative clergy because the Reform and Conservative rabbis' marriages were not Halachically valid, therefore the marriages are not Halachically valid and many subsequent issues are avoided. Not so in the case where there was an insistance, short-sightedly based on a FALSE FRUMKEIT REQUIREMENT that everything be done Orthodox or Halachic or to meet all the higher standards and the guidelines of the Shulchan Oruch forcing or foisting it upon Jews who don't fully subscribe to it inwardly and outwardly that it creates Halachic facts and results in more serious harm such as mamzerus and agunas for whom their are no real solutions (unlike if they had been left as Reform and Conservative ceremonies)
But now in Rabbi Tropper's case involving non-religious Jews and gentiles whose commitment to Yiddishkeit is very shaky who seemingly wanting to convert and for whom Halachic connversions are given and down the line they get divorced and drop out of full observance or worse return to being goyim (and such cases are known to most rabbis), can you imagine the terror and chaos that that will produce when suddenly children's yichus is callenged when it is revealed that their parents conversions were now in doubt and that black hat and shietl and all they are now goyim and that they need new conversions not to mention what will their genuine Halachic spouses do?
Yet Rabbi Tropper wants to do this on a mass scale when he should leave things alone because conversions cannot be done like factory line assemblies (ironically, the very thing he accuses Rabbi Bomzer of) but the only road is the slow road on a case by case basis that when reliable Orthodox or Haredi rabbonim are involved they can moniter each converting individual slowly but surely.
Klal Yisroel is under no obligation to undo the messes of history overnight, but Rabbi Tropper's messianic complex gives him that "superman" feeling that he can move mountains when he is just deluding himself and wasting everyone time and Tom Kaplan's money that is the real opiate here.
"The fact that many Rabbonim aligned to quash the factory of conversions by R. Bomzer and some others who also have financial interests"
RaP: Rabbi Tropper's high-tech PR yet Haredi blitz and spinmeistering using Lubcim and others to push the conversions of hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of gentiles married to Jews is the ULTIMATE "factory of conversions" that is hundreds of thousands if not millions of times WORSE than ANYTHING Rabbi Bomzer or anyone like him could dream up! It's a nightmare to even think of what Rabbi Tropper and EJF have up their sleaves.
Even the American RCA does not have a program like Rabbi Tropper's EJF, and they do many conversions through their Batei Din, but they are not on a wild campaign or goose chase to pull in any interfaith couple that reads an ad online or wherever to come to an all expenses paid seminar like EJF does.
Rabbi Norman Lamm of YU tried years ago to set up an interdenominational effort with the Reform and Conservatives doing some teaching of converts but the conversion would be done by Orthodox rabbis which went nowhere and is for now mercifully defunct. It was a misbegotten and still-born hybrid. Then the Neeman Commission in Israel tried to follow a similar idea and it has had and still has the support of all Israeli Prime Ministers, but it never gets anywwhere because basically the Haredim in the Israeli political system rightly block it and see it for the shallow sham that it is. Then there was the very Religious Zionist efforts Rabbi Drukman and a few others who went around Israel and Europe organizing conversions that lacked seriousness and they were recently shot down by the High Court of the Israeli Chief Rabbinate. Then Rabbi Tropper's and the EJF's glossy PR powered agendas were themselves shot down by no less that the Eidah HaChareidis' Bais Din the BADATZ (in combination with losing the initial tentative goodwill of the Modern Orthdox rabbinate in America and its YU/RCA establishement who dumped Rabbi Tropper and will have nothing to do with EJF in any way after they were insulted publicly by Rav Nochum Eisenstein of the Bais Din LeInyanei Giur in Israel that has the backing of Rav Eliashiv) yet Rabbi Tropper ever the eager flying cavalryman that he is, like a Don Quixote, charges forth into the geirus minefield with his self-appointed mission to get all the goyim who are married to Jews to be convinced that they should be converted en masse according to the strictest Halachah, and if that is not Quixotic, if not delusional, then nothing is.
"seems to be what is really behind this smear campign."
RaP: What a joke, and there is no "smear campaign" and if anyone is an expert at smear campigns ask all the people who are upset about the genuine smear campaign that Rabbi Tropper conducted against Rabb Slifkin to get Slifkin's books banned. And as for accustaions about people doing things for "financial interests" watch out with that one because it's a sword that cuts both ways.
Rabbi Tropper is no innocent babe in the woods and were it not for the very hefty and lucrative hefty backing he and EJF get from Dr. Tom Kaplan's "financial interests" he would not have the power to run around the world and dangle all the financial carrots he does in front of hundreds respectable rabbonim to come and listen to his diatribes at contrived convenstions.
A word about Rav Reuven feinstein. He is close with Rabbi Tropper and his yeshiva also needs financial backing. He is not known as a dayan who deals on a daily basis with the challenges of the tidal wave of gentiles married to Jews. He says shiurim in his yeshiva and through Rabbi Tropper he gets nice donations, that is about it. When Rabbi Reuven Feinstein will set up and run his own Bais Din for conversions come back and tell us. Rabbi Tropper is an expert manipulator who knows how to play one gadol off of another and anyone who does not see that is a fool.
It is overwhelming clear that you on a rampage campaign against R. Tropper and the more you attack every single person associated with him an even attack Rav REuven Feinstein shows your even more your irrational campaign.
ReplyDeleteWhile I unerstan the reservations against R. Tropper an his plans, your voice of opposition shows that there is more at stake for his critics that are far from "leshem shamayim.
With regards to Rabbi Bomzer (which i can clearly see that what bothers you is that R. Tropper an many Rabbonim that participate in EJF attack the fake an phony conversions of people like R. H Bomzer), he is known in many circles for his false conversions where he converts people 1) knowing ahead of time that they are not interrested to keep torah and mitzvot (not only that they have lapses in the future); do not keep shabbat, kashrut, taharat ha mishpacha from the very outset. 3) Actually the rabbanut over ten years ago has written that his conversion needs bedikah! for his reputation is actually very well known, an most importantly his fees are also known!
Continue to defend him and other similar rabbis an attack vehemently Rav Reuven Feinstein and others with such disparagment and everyone will see clearly publicity's agenda!
Rabbi Bomzer is not unique and he can't be blamed for every conversion that went off the rails.
An addmittion from tropper's camp (rony) that one of tropper major obsessions is rabbi Bomzer ( the other obsessions are rabbi Noach Weinberg, chabbad and MO, all he set up to destroy).
ReplyDeleteAt least rabbi Bomzer does not pay people or chase people (like tropper does) to convert with him.
There are testimonies that EJF own beis din (pinchus rabinovitz) asks the convert few questions while bomzer beis din grill the for a half an hour or more.
Tropper also known to grab candidates who are schedule to go to rabbi bomzer and pay them to go with him.
It is funny that the commenter complains about "financial interest" because with out money tropper would still be ankown rosh yeshiva of small bt yeshiva.
One more thing bothers me about this EJF.
ReplyDeleteIt seems like Rabbi Tropper has the backing of Rabbi A. Schechter and Rabbi Feinstein.
Have you spoken to either of them to find out why they back him?
Is it really like RAP asserts that it is a money issue?
I find it hard to believe that Rabbi S. and Rabbi F. would stoop so low.
Just asking said...
ReplyDeleteOne more thing bothers me about this EJF.
It seems like Rabbi Tropper has the backing of Rabbi A. Schechter and Rabbi Feinstein.
Have you spoken to either of them to find out why they back him?
Is it really like RAP asserts that it is a money issue?
I find it hard to believe that Rabbi S. and Rabbi F. would stoop so low.
=================
I don't think you have the context quite right. Nobody is saying that these or other involved rabbis are doing thing which they think violate their principles for the sake of money. No one is going to a rosh yeshiva and saying - if you do will violate halacha I will give you big bucks.
The issue is much more subtle. I would suggest you search through this blog for the Achiezer 26 and Achiezer 28 - twenty years separated these two statements.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteTo just asking who says: "Is it really like RAP asserts that it is a money issue?"
ReplyDeleteIf it's not about money, or potential money, then what is it about?
Do these rosh yeshivas get involved in all the other blood and guts effecting Klal Yisroel issues like in kashrus, gittin, agunas, safrus, taharas for dead people etc etc?
It is usually about power or money if they get involved in something as messy as geirus issues.
Unless it's life and death issues for their own oilem, they will never dirty their hands to get involved with such "practical rabbinics" matters unless it comes flying at them and lands in their laps as a shayla from a talmid or backer, or they are either dragged into it or someone is dangling a big carrot in fron of them and Rabbi Tropper is a world class expert in playing all these types of personalities and things to his perverted power-hungry advantage, covered up with frumkeit and other such "Haredi-politically-correct" dressings.
RaP's long comment was deleted here and made into a posting
ReplyDeletehttp://daattorah.blogspot.com/2008/12/ejf-raps-recapitulation.html
"At least rabbi Bomzer does not pay people or chase people (like tropper does) to convert with him.
ReplyDeleteBut he does ask for the highest fees! An occasional 18,000$ is not out of the question if the case warrants it.
"while bomzer beis din grill the for a half an hour or more".
My foot! He grills nothing; he converts people who are not interested in keeping shabbat, kashrut and taharat hamiushpacha.
Especially when the propsective convert has some ca$h.
"Have you spoken to either of them to find out why they back him?"
ReplyDeleteThey haven't spoken to them. They haven't recorded any source who state why they support them. They woul besmirch hunreds of rabbis who to EJF's conventions as "fressers" anand money grabbers, but would not have the same honesty to acknowlledge that the Rabbis are concerned by other money fressers who for years have mae conversion their bussines and means of making a living!
"I don't think you have the context quite right. Nobody is saying that these or other involved rabbis are doing thing which they think violate their principles for the sake of money".
ReplyDeleteSo why that don't you challenge the publicitities publicity where he actually insinuates an at times states so explicitly?
No one is going to a rosh yeshiva and saying - if you do will violate halacha I will give you big bucks.
"The issue is much more subtle. I would suggest you search through this blog for the Achiezer 26 and Achiezer 28 - twenty years separated these two statements".
EXactly! look for those responsa and you will see why there was and is a need to create an organization like EJF for there were/are numerous charlatans (some of them hailed in this blogs as good conversion rabbis) who made hunreds and maybe thousands (collectively) of fake covnersions where there was no kabbalat hamitzvot.
Look, even the critics of EJF, or even good rabbis who do not presently associate with the EJf (like HaRav H. Shechter) felt the need and importance for such an organization and part of his alignment with that idea was the chaotic state of conversions where they converted without any serious intention to keep torah an mitzvot and diid not show one iota that they would want change their lfiestyle.
RAP
ReplyDelete"If it's not about money, or potential money, then what is it about?"
Daas TOrah:
"Nobody is saying that these or other involved rabbis are doing thing which they think violate their principles for the sake of money".
Are you so blind by your opposition to R Tropper that you do not see that you are not seeing right?
"Do these rosh yeshivas get involved in all the other blood and guts effecting Klal Yisroel issues like in kashrus, gittin, agunas, safrus, taharas for dead people etc etc?"
ReplyDeleteBobeh maasseys! Gerus and fake GErus made by your buddies and friends is an issue of life and death for klal yisroel! Moreover, it is actually not so popular to fight with etractors and be smeared by them as money fressers (when they are the guilty ones on this issue). Iti s about time that someone, if noty R. Tropper, maybe some of your budies would roll their sleeves an undo the damage they have done with aligning with fake conversion rabbis and endorsed people who are money fressers and make conversion a means to make living!
"they will never dirty their hands to get involved with such "practical rabbinics" matters unless it comes flying at them a.."
On the contrary, thell this to your buddies and your friends that they should "dirty their hands" in an unpopular issue which involves not making a living in making phony conversions and bring goyim into klal yisroel.
Roni sounds absolutely confused and confusing and at times he appears to be debating his own posts and even making up ones that weren't their in the first place.
ReplyDeleteLet's try to take a look at poster Roni's latest comments, but it gets confusing because English does not seem to be his first language (unless he is faking it,he may even be Rabbi Tropper himself) and he does not care about noting who and what he is disputing, but here goes:
roni said... "At least rabbi Bomzer does not pay people or chase people (like tropper does) to convert with him."
Roni's response: "But he does ask for the highest fees! An occasional 18,000$ is not out of the question if the case warrants it."
RaP: Honestly I have never been part of a conversion process and I have no idea what the going rates are. If you have solid proof and evidence and problems with Rabbi Bomzer, feel free to let us know, we will eagerly read and examine all the facts and render our non-biased opinion. Does the Shulchan Oruch specify a price for a conversion, or for an aliya in shull or for maftir Yonah on Yom Kippur, or for the salary of a rabbi? There are people who pay tens of thousands of dollars for all sorts of religious honors and services so anything is possible so they may be right and you may be right.
But, again, please note, we do not know any rabbis who do conversions and we have nothing to do with them and we certainly do not support or endorse them, so cut out your false accusations that are just a poor smokescreen for the main subject of Rabbi Tropper's mass efforts under EJF to help convert goyim an issue that is just as bad or worse than what Rabbi Bomzer does.
"while bomzer beis din grill the for a half an hour or more".
Roni says: "My foot! He grills nothing; he converts people who are not interested in keeping shabbat, kashrut and taharat hamiushpacha.
Especially when the propsective convert has some ca$h."
RaP: I agree with you, but the subject is not Bomzer our problem is with Tropper. Sorry to tell you but Tropper and Bomzer are in the same boat because there is no such thing as "good conversions" since most of them become unglued in the end. See the Gemar about "kashim gerim kesapachas"!
December 12, 2008 4:22 AM
roni said... "Have you spoken to either of them to find out why they back him?"
Roni says: "They haven't spoken to them. They haven't recorded any source who state why they support them. They woul besmirch hunreds of rabbis who to EJF's conventions as "fressers" anand money grabbers, but would not have the same honesty to acknowlledge that the Rabbis are concerned by other money fressers who for years have mae conversion their bussines and means of making a living!"
RaP: Roni calm down. So you are saying that Rabbi Tropper is happy to create a war between entire groups of rabbis. Do you think anyone is going to listen to him or be frightened by him and EJF? No! The Modern Orthodox and the RCA, the very people Tropper wants to influence have written him off and will have nothing to do with him. The Haredim in Israel at the BADATZ have condemned him and the EJF's proposed goals. And now even moderate Haredim in Europe are disgusted by Tropper's yelling at them, like he did recently at the Prague convention of rabbis. And now even Rav Nochum Eisenstein and his Vaad HaOlama Leinyanie Giur and his Bais Din LeInyanei Giur under Rav Eliashiv's auspices seem to be demanding the lead role in the war against false and weak conversions and they want Rabbi Tropper to fall in line behind them and follow what they have to say and not the other way around. Yet Rabbi Tropper does not see all these red lights, and seemingly because he has a messianic complex he fights the world and even is now looking to start civil wars between all the kiruv programs.
Sounds like Rabbi Tropper needs to take chill pills big time and take a leave of absence and or a Sabbatical and take it easy for a year or two and leave this whole geirus busines for others to fight. Harbei Shluchim Yesh Lo LaMakom!
December 12, 2008 4:25 AM
Roni said... "I don't think you have the context quite right. Nobody is saying that these or other involved rabbis are doing thing which they think violate their principles for the sake of money".
Roni says: "So why that don't you challenge the publicitities publicity where he actually insinuates an at times states so explicitly?"
RaP: Don't be such an amateur and act dumb, ok? When a rich man flies you out to multiple conventions with all expenses paid weekends and retreats that is already shochad. You cited Rabbi Reuven Feinstein and in that case it is well known that Rabbi Tropper and Rav Reuven Feinstein shlit"a do share some big contributors and backers (not uncommon in the Torah or philanthropic world, so don't starst jumping up and down) with Lower East Side connections. We are not talking about hundreds of rabbis because hundreds of rabbis are not giving Rabbi Tropper their written support. But it is not illogical in such circumstances to ask if Rav Reuven Feinstein is getting a financial benefit somehow or other for his institutions that need it in his support for Rabbi Tropper and the EJF. Please answer the question directly instead of kicking and screaming like an infant to avoid giving a straight answer. Much obliged if you will.
No one is going to a rosh yeshiva and saying - if you do will violate halacha I will give you big bucks.
"The issue is much more subtle. I would suggest you search through this blog for the Achiezer 26 and Achiezer 28 - twenty years separated these two statements".
Roni says: "EXactly! look for those responsa and you will see why there was and is a need to create an organization like EJ"
RaP: It looks like this may be Rabbi Tropper himself answering because he seems to be familar with the Achiezer now.
Roni says: "for there were/are numerous charlatans"
RaP: I agree with you. But two wrongs do not make a right. Rabbi Tropper has his own problems in this regard and who EXACTLY asked him (Eliyahu HaNavi?) to fight all the charlatans in the world, even if he is right?
"(some of them hailed in this blogs as good conversion rabbis)"
RaP: Not by me, nor by Dr. Eidensohn the owner of this blog.
"who made hunreds and maybe thousands (collectively) of fake covnersions where there was no kabbalat hamitzvot."
RaP: Yes, true, and now Rabbi Tropper and EJF want to add to this problem and they fool themselves by thinking that they will have better results than all the other charlatans.
Roni says: "Look, even the critics of EJF, or even good rabbis who do not presently associate with the EJf (like HaRav H. Shechter) felt the need and importance for such an organization"
RaP: Yeah? Like when?
Roni says: "and part of his alignment with that idea was the chaotic state of conversions where they converted without any serious intention to keep torah an mitzvot and diid not show one iota that they would want change their lfiestyle."
RaP: Who asked Rabbi Tropper to get involved when his field was NOT being a dayan nor with conversions. He is plain and simple a dynamic kiruv rabbi who has grown too big for his boots with delusions of granduer unfortunately fueled by the proverbial and literal fool's gold of the Kaplan billions that encourage him when he is facing more and more critics as each day goes by.
December 12, 2008 4:31 AM
roni said... RAP "If it's not about money, or potential money, then what is it about?"
Daas TOrah: "Nobody is saying that these or other involved rabbis are doing thing which they think violate their principles for the sake of money".
Roni says: "Are you so blind by your opposition to R Tropper that you do not see that you are not seeing right?"
RaP: Like what? To oppose Rabbi Tropper means that one is "not seeing right"? That is a very funny suggestion don't you think? You can do better than that in such a serious discussion.
December 12, 2008 4:33 AM
roni said... "Do these rosh yeshivas get involved in all the other blood and guts effecting Klal Yisroel issues like in kashrus, gittin, agunas, safrus, taharas for dead people etc etc?"
Roni says: "Bobeh maasseys! Gerus and fake GErus made by your buddies and friends is an issue of life and death for klal yisroel!"
RaP: They are not my buddies. I do not have anything to do with geirus or geirus rabbis. So stop making stupid accusations please. There is much that effecets the life and death of Klal Yiroel. How about all the problems with sex abuse that is now coming out into the opne in the frum world? How about the shidduchim and singles crisis, people can't get married and how about the rising divorces and broken homes in th frum world? And you are mssing the point. EVERYONE agrees it's a crisis but what we are disputing is how Rabbi Tropper and EJF want to stop the intermarriage crisis.
You have to face facts and reality that this crisis is coming from secular and non-religious Jews and that until you can convince secular, non-religious and less religious Jews to stay away from false conversions then there will always be TRAGICALLY and UNFORTUNATELY ways for them to find leneient rabbis, as you say, for the right price, and there is nothing Rabbi Tropper or EJF can do stop that that. What can be done is to say that no conversions will be allowed with only the greatest of exceptions for TRUE GEIREI TZEDEK that will come individually to Batei Din and each Bais Din will judge them on their merits BUT NO MASS MOVEMWNTS like EJF.
The problem with Rabbi Tropper is that he has a record of being controversial and many rabbonim feel he is using this whole EJF business just to push his own fame and power.
Roni says: "Moreover, it is actually not so popular to fight with etractors and be smeared by them as money fressers (when they are the guilty ones on this issue)."
RaP: But EJF gets millions from Tom Kaplan as he supports Rabbi Tropper as well with money. So it's easy for Rabbi Tropper to be a hero when he has the Kaplan billions to back him up.
Roni says: "Iti s about time that someone, if noty R. Tropper, maybe some of your budies would roll their sleeves an undo the damage they have done"
RaP: Not sure who you are talking to here because noone here has those kind of buddies. Feel free to fight the whole world like Rabbi Tropper does, he has long lists of enemies, the Modern Orthodox, Aish HaTorah, Lubavitch, Religious Zionists, the BADATZ, and many others. Good luck.
Roni: "with aligning with fake conversion rabbis and endorsed people who are money fressers and make conversion a means to make living!"
RaP: If you know such people we are against them 100% too. I oppose fake conversions and I condemn it when it's done for money which makes it worse. I have fought battles against this kind of fraud and abuse of the conversion process. So please stop throwing false accusations this way.
"they will never dirty their hands to get involved with such "practical rabbinics" matters unless it comes flying at them a.."
Roni says: "On the contrary, thell this to your buddies and your friends that they should "dirty their hands" in an unpopular issue which involves not making a living in making phony conversions and bring goyim into klal yisroel."
RaP: I do not have such friends and never have. It does not help to change the subject either. They are wrong and Rabbi Tropper is wrong, and what he wants to do with EJF is 1000 times worse because he will lead the way for millions of gentiles to be classified as "Halachic Jews" when they are just mass phonies who were sold a false bill of goods by EJF propaganda and hired spinmeisters.
betmatik
ReplyDeletekralbet
betpark
tipobet
slot siteleri
kibris bahis siteleri
poker siteleri
bonus veren siteler
mobil ödeme bahis
YWV