[...]
“I’ve been through all these different phases in Chabad. Chabad has been a bit of a roller coaster for me. It was very pure in the sense that I totally divested myself from all of the confusion that I was living in. I wasn’t getting high, I wasn’t with women — I was waking up every morning and learning Torah all day. And so, in certain senses it was a pure process,” Matisyahu said.
“But there was a lot of alcoholism going on, in my experience, and a lot of borderline —” He interrupted himself. “I definitely lost myself, as well, in the process, in the sense that I somehow stopped thinking for myself. I became completely dependent on other people for my sense of what was right and wrong. I felt incapable of making my own decisions. I was borderline completely losing my mind.” And then, he said, he pulled himself out of Chabad.
It was during this period that he began working with the now Jerusalem-based therapist Ephraim Rosenstein, whom he now considers his personal friend and religious mentor.
“[Rosenstein] was able to help me come to some realizations that were really ground-breaking, and kept me from where I think I would have lost my mind in the state of being I was in at that time,” Matisyahu said. “After that happened, once my therapy came to a certain place, and I’d gotten pretty healthy, I wanted to continue with my spirituality. I guess the therapy to me was sort of getting to know myself as a valid means of spiritual growth. I wanted to take it from a personal to an intellectual kind of thing, so we started learning together. Instead of therapy, I was paying him to discuss ideas, basically.
“I’ve stopped identifying with any group of Judaism. I would now call myself an Orthodox Jew. I try to keep the tenets of halachic Judaism as strongly as possible, but I don’t identify with any one movement.”
He noted that he has not severed ties with the movement completely: “My kids go to a Lubavitch yeshiva and are named after rebbes. I have Lubavitch friends, and we stay with shlichim [emissaries] around the world. I feel I have some in-depth knowledge of Hasidus and Chabad philosophy, and close ties with Lubavitch. But I don’t feel the need to be any one thing.
“In Chabad, there was always the tendency to deify everything, whether it was the rebbes or the learning,” Matisyahu said. “[There was] this sense that you couldn’t ask questions about any of it, that if you didn’t accept it, you weren’t accepting the Torah. It was as if you weren’t religious, and that this was the one path and the true path and that anything outside of it, even if it was a different kind of Hasidim, was certainly looked down upon.” With Rosenstein, he said, Matisyahu relished a different mode of studying, which focused on placing teachings into historical and social contexts and then comparing them with other Hasidus and philosophies of Judaism. [...]
It's been the impression of many that Matisyahu was much better off emotionally before he left Chabad than after.
ReplyDeleteAlthough while he was in Chabad, many people already thought that he was acting strangely, and they always wondered whether he was entirely "with it". That certainly hasn't changed sine he's left Chabad. For one thing he actually was not "behaving" particularly 'Chassidish' while still in Chabad, so it was hardly the Chabad experience that he was experiencing problems with.
In other words, he created his own problems, which Chabad doesn't necessarily provide.
P.S. this Rosenstein fellow is known as someone who has an ax to grind where Chabad is concerned. He has consistently attempted to pull people away from Chabad, and as a therapist, is quite skilled at 'explaining' to his patients why Chabad is harming them when it isn't.
The description "I definitely lost myself, in the sense that I somehow stopped thinking for myself. I became completely dependent on other people for my sense of what was right and wrong. I felt incapable of making my own decisions", sounds much more apt now than ever before.
I have a theory about Matisyahu, perhaps correct, perhaps not. The Chabad crowd was probably not enamored of his music and life style, and since a person's intellect follows his inclinations, Matisyahu felt better off splitting away from the group in order to do what he likes. Seems quite obvious. Avraham.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said...
ReplyDeleteIt's been the impression of many that Matisyahu was much better off emotionally before he left Chabad than after.
Although while he was in Chabad, many people already thought that he was acting strangely, and they always wondered whether he was entirely "with it". That certainly hasn't changed sine he's left Chabad. For one thing he actually was not "behaving" particularly 'Chassidish' while still in Chabad, so it was hardly the Chabad experience that he was experiencing problems with.
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I find it sad that instead of dealing with the issues that Mattisyahu brings up the first reaction is to attack him. I will admit that perhaps a journalistic article is not the best place for him to vent his frustrations with Chabad, however I find the lashon hara aimed at him in response to be even more unsettling.
When he was the pop-star that was bringing people in and packing out Chabad events, no one said that he was disturbed, acting strangely, or not "Chasidishe". However, suddenly these things come up now that he has left Chabad rather publicly. Something smells fishy.
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In other words, he created his own problems, which Chabad doesn't necessarily provide.
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Here I will agree in part. Matisyahu from his former bio information was always a part of a B"T Yeshiva. B"T Yeshivot typically do not promote free thought. This is not a criticism, but rather a necessity. It is quite necessary for at least a time, for a B"T to learn to think within certain structured guidlines, so that they can learn to think as a Torah Observant Jew. I remember once during a parent's weekend at the Morristown Yeshiva(Chabad) a parent accused the Rosh Yeshiva of brainwashing the students. He responded, "Of course I am brainwashing them. They come here with heads full of filth, and it is my job to clean it out and replace it with Torah."
In my opinion Matisyahu probably stayed too long. It is not always easy to leave such a place, it is safe and comfortable. Sometimes the Rabbanim for whatever reason do not want you to leave, even after it is time. I had that problem after I moved to Israel. I was in a B"T Yeshiva(not Chabad), simply because most english speaking Yeshivot are. When I had finished Ulpan and was accepted to a very good Israeli Yeshiva, the Rosh Yeshiva understood, however my magid Shiur felt the need to yell at me and demean me. Why, I do not know, however it made what should have been a simple, and somewhat sad decision into a big ordeal.
Also Matisyahu addressed alcoholism. While Chabad is known for being somewhat free with the L'Chaims on Shabbat, I would not say that alcoholism is endemic to Chabad. Again I think this was a failure on his part to understand that while in a B"T Yeshiva, negative behaviors that would be targeted within a regular Yeshiva sometimes are missed. The Rabbis simply have bigger fish to fry. Also while all the students are typically fervently committed to Judaism, it is typically Judaism as they understand it, at times with excesses, I could tell numerous stories in those areas. Finally while they are are fervent, this does not make them Tzadikim, in fact often they are just beginning the process of self-refinement.
However, giving him the benefit of the doubt, he is relating his own personal experiences. It seems to me to be wrong to degrade a person for doing that. You could say that his experience is unique, or not average, but it is his experience.
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P.S. this Rosenstein fellow is known as someone who has an ax to grind where Chabad is concerned. He has consistently attempted to pull people away from Chabad, and as a therapist, is quite skilled at 'explaining' to his patients why Chabad is harming them when it isn't.
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Again the descent into Lashon HaRah. Followed by what amounts to criminal libel. You simply cannot say, legally at least, that a licensed therapist is abusing their relationship with their client in order to convince their client of something. Know that if Rosenstein chose to pursue it there probably would be serious legal repercussions for that statement. Honestly in my mind you do more damage to the Chabad cause with your reaction than Matisyahu does with his interview. His interview is simply one person expressing their experience and why they chose to leave something. His choosing to leave indicates well enough he was not happy there, and thus may make inadvertent exaggerations. It could even have been fictionalization of some of what he experienced. It has been known to happen, the internet if full of blogs of fictionalized accounts of Chassidic life. However, when someone feels the need to violate both halacha and the law in order to defend something, I begin to wonder if there isn't far more truth behind his words than I would have first thought. Truly defamation, slander and libel are the tools of cults to control and manipulate. When they are employed to defend something that wants to be considered mainstream, it raises red-flags with me. Chabad is a sect of Jews, and thus I will give them the benefit of the doubt, and assume that this comment/response was from one seriously mistaken individual.
I do find it interesting that Matisyahu said,In Chabad, there was always the tendency to deify everything, whether it was the rebbes or the learning,” Matisyahu said. “[There was] this sense that you couldn’t ask questions about any of it, that if you didn’t accept it, you weren’t accepting the Torah. It was as if you weren’t religious, and that this was the one path and the true path and that anything outside of it, even if it was a different kind of Hasidim, was certainly looked down upon. More and more this seems to be a stream within Chabad. Again whether or not Matisyahu is speaking rightly speaking about all of Chabad or simply one institution is yet to be seen. However, there definitely seems to be this stream within Chabad, that Chabad does not for some reason feel the need to cut out. There is an Elokist movement as was mentioned in the comments of the first part of "The Rebbe Runs the World." However, the more I think about it the more I wonder why, if these people truly are rebels, hasn't Chabad done something about it. If I started talking nonsense like that, the Rabbanim that gave me Semicha would take me to Beit Din and have my Semicha removed. Why has this not occurred within Chabad? Or has this occurred and are the rest of us just unaware?
Mekubal:
ReplyDeletea) I am speaking as someone who has always maintained since 2003-4 that he was disturbed, strange, not "chassidish" (that is, pious practically (Halacha), or spiritually). I didn't write that on this blog, because I think the Chabad-bashing is already covered.
I personally used to speak out against him and his music, and it was my opinion that he ought to stop completely, and spend time studying etc.
I also used to call his judgment into question, and I considered him unstable.
That view has only intensified after his therapist sent him on this ridiculous ride (or "journey")
of his life. If you'd followed him closely, I think you'd agree.
According to Halacha, I don't consider this Lashon Hara.
b) I was just pointing out that his experience of losing his judgment and his mind had no connection with Chabad, it's message, it's methods, or members (per se) at all. That would have happened no matter where he was. My proof is that he wasn't ever "Chassidish" anyway. One could only claim that Chabad was the problem had he become too pious and devout. That never happened.
c) there's a lot of alcoholism and borderline stuff going on in every neighborhood and community. The fact that this played a role in his experience is yet another testament to his natural state, which is instability.
d) there is no certainty that Rosenstein is a licensed therapist. I have specifically heard otherwise. He also well-known for discouraging his clients from association to Chabad. Don't call it convincing, call it "exploration", call it what you want, he doesn't like Chabad as a community and that is what he imparts to his clients.
Personally, I don't have a high opinion of therapists in general, and they are known to convince their clients of (or "lead to", sorry) all kinds of strange things. That would be an important discussion in its own right, but for now I'll suffice with stating that Matisyahu's "experience" and memory thereof was clearly shaped by his therapist.
e) Matisyahu says he felt he couldn't ask any questions. He calls that "deifying". While this sounds like yet another idea planted by his therapist, he still has not approached anything remotely connected to "streams within Chabad" or the non-existent "movement of Elokisten". All he said was that things were presented as G-d's word. That is no different than Arachim or Aish or any other community.
*
So to sum up, through personal knowledge I state that: a) Matisyahu is unstable in character, b) it woesn't submersion in Chabad which is the cause of his problems, c) his therapist has been and still is actively dryeing him ah kopp in all kinds of ways. Time will tell.
Also, just because I have negative things to say, shouldn't lead to accusations of manipulation. I also have nice things to say about him. But I can't help it if what I say is my genuine opinion. You are welcome not to accept it.
IF he unstable in his character, why Chabad emissaries use him?
ReplyDeleteBU said...
ReplyDeleted) there is no certainty that Rosenstein is a licensed therapist. I have specifically heard otherwise. He also well-known for discouraging his clients from association to Chabad. Don't call it convincing, call it "exploration", call it what you want, he doesn't like Chabad as a community and that is what he imparts to his clients.
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To be clear your statement constitutes libel if you make it without supporting documentation and it could harm his reputation. So unless you have documentation of censure from a reputable licensing agency or successful lawsuits for malpractice you have and continue to cross the line into illegality. I find it troubling that you would pursue this method in order to attempt to make your point.
Personally, I don't have a high opinion of therapists in general, and they are known to convince their clients of (or "lead to", sorry) all kinds of strange things. That would be an important discussion in its own right, but for now I'll suffice with stating that Matisyahu's "experience" and memory thereof was clearly shaped by his therapist.
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Now instead of libeling one therapist you choose to libel them all. Many upstanding Rabbanim today are therapists. Many more work hand in hand with therapists to help individuals deal with various problems, as has been documented on this blog overall. I understand the the last Lubavitcher Rebbe was against Psychology as he percieved it to be derivative of Freud(despite direct evidence to the contrary) and he had problems with Freud. However, please do not slander and libel, not only Rosenstein but others.
e) Matisyahu says he felt he couldn't ask any questions. He calls that "deifying". While this sounds like yet another idea planted by his therapist, he still has not approached anything remotely connected to "streams within Chabad" or the non-existent "movement of Elokisten". All he said was that things were presented as G-d's word. That is no different than Arachim or Aish or any other community.
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Again with the libel on the therapist. You don't have a high opinion of legalities do you? That there are people, and even movements that do deify the last Rebbe has been well established. Scroll down look at the post "The Rebbe Runs the WorldI&II" for documentary evidence of this as well as links to Lubavitch run blogs that make these claims. You may be able to claim that they are irrelevant minority, or not mainstream, but you cannot claim that they do not exist in some fashion. The point that is under question there is to what extent does it exist. If a Rav saying that the Rebbe runs the world is acceptable the mainstream of Chabad, than that implies a level of deification that many of us are not at all comfortable with.
Actually Matisyahu says there was the tendency to deify the Rebbe(again this is discussed elsewhere at great length on this blog) and the learning. Then to question those things(based upon his syntax it seems to me were are talking about the mentioned deification) was not allowed. If it was only to say that Torah is the living word of HaShem, Matisyahu would have had to leave Judaism(or at least Orthodoxy) to be able to question that. Which is not what he has done. He has left Chabad.
This leads me to think that the reasons are Chabad theology. The Mashiachist and Elokist movements have been in my opinion negative to the growth and development of Chabad. It has has also been problematic for a large number of Gedolim as is pointed out here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chabad_messianism#Haredi_response
please note that some of these Gedolim also make mention of Elokist movement, so I have a hard believing that it is "nonexistent".
Rabbi Eidensohn Shlita
ReplyDeletetheir has got to be more pressing issues in Klal Yisroel for a talmud chcacham such as yourself to be involved in then Matisyahu.
mashgiach said...
ReplyDeleteRabbi Eidensohn Shlita
their has got to be more pressing issues in Klal Yisroel for a talmud chcacham such as yourself to be involved in then Matisyahu.
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He has had more impact and has more influence on Judaism and the peception of Judaism than a many talmidei chachomim.
A lot of the issues that Matisiyahu mentioned is not unique to Chabad. Particularly this business of not thinking for one's self and looking towards others to define right and wrong. This also might not be the host Yeshiva's fault either.
ReplyDeleteBecoming frum and emmersing one's self full time in Yeshiva can with its new culture and intense schedule can be overstimulating. I know, I have been there myself and I did not learn in Lubavitch.
>unless you have documentation of censure from a reputable licensing agency or successful lawsuits for malpractice you have and continue to cross the line into illegality.
ReplyDeleteI have stated that he apparently is not licensed to be called a "therapist". He engages informally in therapy, because he apparently acquired a reputation as being helpful in those areas. Now, he also has acquired a reputation of disliking Chabad. This explains why all Lubavitch therapists can help their clients without studying Breslover Chassidus with them. Whereas Rosenstein has "suggested", "recommended", "goaded", fill the blank yourself, his clients into 'exploring' other options.
I can assure you that Matisyahu never considered joining Karlin (or heard of it) before he met Rosenstein. So I don't understand why you would want to simultaneously credit Matisyahu with simply realizing the inherent and obvious problems within Chabad, while angrily rejecting the notion that his therapist deserves the credit for rescuing him from a "cult" of "missionaries" as you like to call Chabad.
>I find it troubling that you would pursue this method in order to attempt to make your point.
My point is simple: we'll call "Lubavitch is Fine" A; we'll call "Matisyahu says he experienced problems with Lubavitch" B; since A=B is a logical contradiction, I wish to introduce C and D. C is "Matisyahu is unstable and creates his own problems"; D is "there is someone who dislikes Chabad who has shaped Matisyahu understanding and views".
Now, A (+ C, D) = B.
That's my explanation. You are welcome to advance your own, but I tend to think that mine probably have more basis in what actually happened because it's something that I've been following.
>Now instead of libeling one therapist you choose to libel them all. Many upstanding Rabbanim today are therapists.
How do you think a Mormon therapist would fare with a Bobover child from Borough Park? Do you think that might have an adverse effect? How about a confirmed agnostic? What about a therapist who is against repressing sexuality? How about an observant Jew whose ideas where shaped by anti-Torah views, but doesn't know it?
Do you think there might be a difference between them and between a Rav who is a therapist? So why conflate the two?
What if the therapist was trained to guide people to condemn their parents? Or are you in favor of that? What if they are trained to reinforce ("bring forward") their client's anger?
If I think that is wrong, am I entitled to my opinion? Or am I not because there are Rabbanim who are therapists?
Give me a break.
>I understand the the last Lubavitcher Rebbe was against Psychology as he percieved it to be derivative of Freud (despite direct evidence to the contrary) and he had problems with Freud.
a) you made all of that up. b) the Rebbe was in favor of Psychology, especially Frankl's. c) modern Psychology has changed many times in the period since the Rebbe could have last stated his opinion on Psychology. d) I am entitled to my (very own) opinion, which I'm willing to discuss, but it's not really relevant here.
>Actually Matisyahu says there was the tendency to deify the Rebbe and the learning. Then to question those things (based upon his syntax it seems to me were are talking about the mentioned deification) was not allowed.
The paragraph: "deify everything, whether it was the rebbes or the learning... this sense that you couldn’t ask questions about any of it... that this was the one path and the true path... a different mode of studying, which focused on placing teachings into historical and social contexts", clearly indicated that we are speaking of general Chabad teachings. That if Matisyahu would ask why things are necessarily the way the Rebbe says them, and not perhaps the way R. Nachman says them, he was told the above. Now though, he studies differently. That's all. No Elokisten involved at all. Not unless you actively pursue them to the slums of Boston. Or correlate everything you read to them.
>If it was only to say that Torah is the living word of HaShem, Matisyahu would have had to leave Judaism (or at least Orthodoxy) to be able to question that. Which is not what he has done. He has left Chabad.
a) see above. b) who says Matiusyahu's judgement is unimpeachable? Maybe he just isn't smart enough to realize that? I have maintained all along that Matisyahu isn't capable of making these judgments, and that it is his friend who is mainly responsible for shaping his views, so I ain't got a problem.
That's all. Feel free not to take me on my word.
BU Said...
ReplyDeleteI can assure you that Matisyahu never considered joining Karlin (or heard of it) before he met Rosenstein. So I don't understand why you would want to simultaneously credit Matisyahu with simply realizing the inherent and obvious problems within Chabad, while angrily rejecting the notion that his therapist deserves the credit for rescuing him from a "cult" of "missionaries" as you like to call Chabad.
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I do not and have never considered Chabad a cult. I have said that at times people who call themselves Chabad, who hold problematic(something the Ari called Kefirah) doctrines, employ cult-like tactics in debate, however, I am mature enough to separate those individuals from Chabad as a whole.
Do I think that Chabad is a missionary organization. Yes B"H. How many people would not be frum today if not for Chabad "missionaries" going out around the world. This does not mean they are evil, but they do fit that sociological and anthropological definition. However, again I believe that you are referencing my comments to certain tactics employed by people within Chabad, not Chabad itself. Please understand that I make a distinction.
As far as Rosenstein goes why does he even need to ender the discussion. He is a therapist(whether liscensed or not) and to put into print publically that he abuses that position of power, is libel. Please look up the definition if you would like.
If you want to say that Matisyahu was unstable before he came to Chabad, I think that you could find compelling evidence from his own bio. He was in a drug/addiction-treatment program 2001, and went from there to Yeshivah. Ok so he wasn't healthy, does that mean that his perception of Chabad was completely off? Not necessarily, it just means that his comments need to be understood in the greater context of any person who chooses to leave something.
For instance when people within Chabad, who are comitted to Chabad, and want to see it grow, who spent their entire lives within Chabad and have no intention of leaving it any time soon tell me there are problems within, I will take them a lot more seriously than someone who has run away.