Monday, August 4, 2008

Chabad - Reality check/Why nothing is happening

Dialogue between critics and Chabad: The dialogue with Chabad - whether on this blog or elsewhere always seems to hit a dead end. The arguments back and forth are cogently presented here.
Chabad says, "You don't accept our beliefs? That is alright because there is a certain degree of leeway in halacha and hashkofa and that what Chabad does and thinks is well within the range of historically accepted Yiddishkeit.

Critics of Chabad say "if you look at what the Rebbe says it is clearly in violation of the fundamentals of halacha and hashkofa, he assumes that he is G-d incarnate and is thus an intermediate no different than Jesus. He is infallible and omniscient and as a minimum an indispensable intermediate between man and G-d."

Chabad responds, "You simply are twisting the words and ignoring the actual context. Normal Chabad chasidim do not understand the Rebbe's words in the heretical fashion that you have twisted them. The Rebbe's sole concern was for the kavod Shamayim and this is well proven by his accomplishments. Granted there are some crazies within Chabad who believe what the critics's claim but they are a decided minority and have been strongly condemned by the mainstream Chabad leadership.

Critics respond, "The aberrant beliefs are not merely that of a few unbalanced individuals but in fact permeate all of Chabad - especially the educational system. The Rebbe has become the focus of Chabad religion and has displaced G-d. Prayers are directed towards the Rebbe, mitzvos are done for the pleasure of the Rebbe, the Rebbe (whether alive or dead) not only knows what is happening to you but will respond to your requests no matter where you are - he is thus omniscient and omnipotent as well as infallible. These attributes have always beeen reserved for G-d alone and now Chabad attributes them to the Rebbe?!"

Dialogue between critics and Gedolim: Interestingly there is also a corresponding dead end when asking why gedolim don't condemn Chabad. The conversation goes like this.

Critics say to the Gadol, "I have shown the Rosh HaYeshiva the assertions of the Lubavitcher rebbe that he or at least his father in law is the atzmus of G-d. c.v. That he insists that chasidim view him as the infallible intermediary with G-d. I have presented irrefutable evidence that the Rebbe viewed himself as Moshiach. That he asserted that he is the dominant human personality of our time and the human being closest to G-d and that he controls and influences all of world events - as if he were G-d. I have presented much testimony that the Chabad educational system has produced a group of Jews who are heretics. I have presented evidence that their goal is to convert all Jews to their beliefs as well as to convert non-Jews to their form of Judaism. They also have a very active program to convince Bnei Noach to accept the Chabad form of Judaism as the only legitimate understanding. Given this overwhelming evidence why aren't gedolim such as the Rosh HaYeshiva screaming from the rooftops that this is heresy that must be dealt with the same as the Messianic Jews or the Karaites or the followers of Shabtsai Tzvi?"

The Gadol responds, "Our Sages tell us, 'The constructive proposals of the young are destructive.' We are dealing with a very significant part of the Orthodox Jews population. These are Jews who are fully committed to Torah and mitzvos with incredible mesiros nefesh and are a dominant presence in kiruv, kashrus, as well as running countless Jewish communities around the world. If they are amputated from the body of Judaism - it will be as a minimum a horrible destruction to all that we have accomplished after the almost fatal losses of the Holocaust. You are not old enough or learned enough to understand that these disputes have been going on since the time of the Gra and the Baal HaTanya. Even within Chassidus - Chabad (as well as Breslov) have always been viewed as deviating from the acceptable norms of Yiddishkeit. Chabad has always been considered by others and also views itself as a tribe of its own. They have never accepted the full legitimacy of other Orthodox Jews - as we have always questioned their legitimacy. However a pragmatic detente has been reached because it is of no advantage to reject them as it is not beneficial for them to reject us. As long as their poisonous hashkofa of believing in the divinity of the Rebbe and that he is Moshiach - does not win any converts from the mainstream Orthodox communities - nothing will be said or done against them. The fact that they are making baalei teshuva with these heretical views is the lesser of two evils. It is better for someone to be shomer Torah and mitzvos as a chabadnik - then to be a secular Jew. We hold by the view of the Raavad that a sincere mistake does not make someone a heretic.
However if their views ever start penetrating the mainstream - then there will be a strong and decisive reaction just as happened recently with Slifkin. Nobody is overly concerned with the crazy beliefs of baalei teshuva - but if they start corrupting unzerer menschen - there will be war without mercy."

10 comments:

  1. This comes back to the age old question who defines "authentic, Hashem approved Judaism".

    Pro Zionists / Anti Zionists, Chassidic / Misnagdic / TIDE / TUMADAH / TO, etc , etc, etc.

    Also the bigger question at the moment, is who speaks in the name of Chabad and who has the authority to perpetuate and interpret the Rebbes legacy?

    Any comments?

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  2. R'DE
    I think this post really captures it in a nutshell but did you run it by your higher up contacts - especially the last paragraph?

    Do you think the gedolim's rationalization is mirrored in the street (i.e. they know l is very very wrong but not actionable yet )or are the gedolim banking on daat torah to prevail if they need to shift to the last paragraph approach?
    KT
    Joel Rich

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  3. The dialog, while intellectually interesting, does not reflect the true views of mainstream Chabad.

    This is easily proven by videos posted at this site in prior posts. One of those videos shows approximately 4,000 Shluchim (Chabad Rabbis) at their Crown Heights HQ showing homage to the chair of the Rebbe during a Havdalah ceremony. The other shows a Shaharis at their Crown Heights HQ wherein the congregants are chanting "Yechi Adoreinu" etc... and then upon the arrival of the Rebbe's chair begin praying Shaharis toward the chair!

    How should 'mainstream' Chabad be judged? Based on eloquent arguments that their Rabbis make when put on the spot, or based on the actions that their Rabbis support and participate in at their global headquarters?

    The argument is merely a distraction. Actions speak louder than words.

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  4. "We are dealing with a very significant part of the Orthodox Jews population."

    Chabad has always been known to welcome intermarried men and their Gentile offspring whom they hope to convince to "convert" to Judaism.

    With an intermarriage rate of 80% in the FSU since the Russian Revolution, it is estimated that more than 90% of those who identify as Jews from the FSU are not halachically Jewish. And yet Chabad continues to build schools, shuls and outreach centers in the FSU. (I will add that these centers are built with millions of charitable dollars from Jewish communities around the world that could be used to educate Jewish children and feed hungry Jewish families).

    In the US, with an intermarriage rate of more than 50% for now the past two generations, it is estimated that as many as 3/4's of those who are not mainstream
    (non Lubavitch) Orthodox affiliated
    are not halachically Jewish.

    I believe that eyewitness reports from non Lubavitchers who have visited Chabad houses will verify this.

    This is from the Chabadtalk forum:

    "And this is what I did. It was Yom Kippur 5758 when I was approached to open and shut the aron hakodesh. I explained to the person I was not Jewish. This was my first time in a Shul! I wouldn't know when to open because my Hebrew is not so good. But Rubin, a kindly gentleman was assigned to me by the Rabbi to assist me. He would nod his head when it was time to open.., and when it was time to shut.., and when it was time to drop to the floor. "baruk haShem kavod malacuso lolam v'ed" The second year at Yom Kippur I was again given this honor at a Chabad Shul. Does anyone no of any halacha why I shouldn't have been permitted this honour. I should say I cried all the way home.., I was deeply moved by the experience. I'll never forget when I was fininshed many in the kahal began shaking my hand. These people were complete strangers to me. I will always have a deep love for Chabad and all Lubavitchers.., always."

    and the "justification" for this is:

    "I have no idea in this halocho lemaiso, but doesn't it say ki besi beis tefila yikoreh lichol hoamim - (that My House is a House of prayer for all the nations), and I think that is even going on the Beis Hamikdosh?"

    Another shaliach posts:

    "the Beis Ha'Mikdash definitely attracted goyim, and Shlomo davened that Hashem answer their tefillos so that the goyim wouldn't reject Hashem...In my chabad house I do not check passports at the door."

    "I recently had a reform "rabbi" with her (reform) converted husband and children for seudas shabbos and a litvishe couple vacationing in my area. It was interesting to say the least."

    another poster asks:

    "I was waiting for someone to ask which couple you got on better with??"

    The shaliach then asks:

    "Which do you think?"

    and then answers:

    "The "converted" husband."

    another poster repeats the question:

    "Is it appropriate for a gentile to be in a shul at any time, for any holiday or weekday prayer service?"

    The answer is given in the name of:
    "Rabbi Tuvia Bolton of Kfar Chabad says regarding this question, "I know of no reason that it is forbidden to give this honor if you are a gentile that honors Torah as it is interpreted by the classic Jewish sages."

    http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/archive/index.php3/t-944.html

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  5. "These are Jews who are fully committed to Torah and mitzvos"

    There is a great deal of evidence (ie videos from the shluchim convention at 770) that this is simply not true. Sanctifying wine to a deified chair is not something that those committed to Torah and mitzvos do.

    "They have never accepted the full legitimacy of other Orthodox Jews - as we have always questioned their legitimacy."

    Lubavitchers supervise our wine, shecht our meat, teach our children, sit on Batei Din all over the world and are in every way part of mainstream Orthodoxy.

    Chabadism is rapidly REPLACING Judaism in the same way that Christianity has claimed to be the replacement of Rabbinic Judaism for the past 2000 years.

    "As long as their poisonous hashkofa of believing in the divinity of the Rebbe and that he is Moshiach - does not win any converts from the mainstream Orthodox communities - nothing will be said or done against them. "

    Unless you EXCLUSIVELY use ONLY Satmar meat and wine, dine only in Satmar restaurants and caterers, have your children in Satmar schools or live in Williamsburg or Kiryas Yoel, you drink Lubavitch wine, eat Lubavitch shechita, educate your children by Lubavitch and folllow Lubavitch halachic policy as Lubavitchers sit on Vaads and Batei Din all over the world.
    (I am NOT Satmar, or even Hassidic but AFAIK, Satmar is the ONLY Jewish group that has an explicit policy to exclude Lubavitchers from their shechita, mashgichim, schools and community leadership).

    Outside of strictly Satmar communities, one has to build his own mikveh, make his own wine, homeschool his children, never eat in restaurants or by caterers and somehow get Satmar meat to avoid participating in Lubavitch heresy.

    [edited]

    "However if their views ever start penetrating the mainstream "

    They ARE the mainstream as today Chabad represents Orthodox Judaism in America. Chabad Rabbis serve as Mora D'Asra in non Chabad shuls all over the world. Try to find a mikveh that is not under Chabad. The only meat that you can be sure was not shechted by someone who believes that the Rabbi is the embodiment of G-d is Satmar and the same is true of wine. I do not know of a yeshiva day school that does not employ Lubavitchers.

    Without a strong action from the Gedolim, Judaism is rapidly becoming extinct, being replaced by Chabadism.

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  6. As for the 2st part of your post, can I ask you a question? Why are you reposting essentially the same claims and content that was already brought up and responded to by me in earlier posts? This gives me the impression that what I write is not being heard. Why do you have to keep rehashing the same claims? Why not post each one in one blog post, and let each one be discussed there, instead of reposting a whole slew of claims as if they weren't discussed, making it necessary to copy and paste all the responses? There is something not so fair about this approach, it would seem.

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  7. Bright Eyes and Jersey girl, that is a gross misunderstanding of the videos. No one is praying to a chair, ch"v, or "sanctifying wine". It's a meshugaas, I agree, but not more than that, and it's only being done by a small number of people. Likewise, it's simply a lie that there are "4000 shluchim" there. Rather, it's a few crazies who do what they want, and everyone else ignores them. I don't believe that you've ever been there and discussed the matter with a Lubavitcher Chossid directly. You're just believing this blatant slander without verifying it according to the halachos of loshon horo.

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  8. Re the quote from chabadtalk, all it seems that happened was that a guy in a Chabad House, probably an ignoramus--remember, Chabad Houses are in the middle of nowhere--thought it's okay to give the kovod of pesicha to a goy.

    And if anything, the quote of the story of how a shliach hosted an intermarried couple for Shabbos --thus enabling the Jewish one to have a Shabbos meal and find out about Judaism--is quite positive.

    And as for Chabad in Russia, efforts are made to separate the Jews from the non-Jews. So if some non-Jews end up attending anyway because they "slip through the cracks", therefore there shouldn't be Jewish schools?

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  9. Rabbi Oliver, if it is really only a few "crazies" in Chabad, why don't the majority STOP them???

    There were 4000 shluchim at the Convention last fall. Are you trying to make the case that 4000 normal shluchim couldn't stop a "few crazies" from turning Chabad world headquarters into a temple of Avodah Zara?

    It is not only in 770, but in Chabad houses all over.

    In the dozens of Chabad houses I visited all over the US from 1996-2006 there have been people saying 'Yechi". I never ONCE saw any Rabbi even try to stop this.

    I have been offered "Rebbe's mashka" and "Rebbe's mikvah water" by Lubavitch Rebbetzins).

    Last time I used the mikveh in Crown Heights (1996), I was instructed to sit in the Rebbe's chair after tevila. The chair was covered in plastic and still wet, obviously from the last lady.

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  10. JG, let's not exaggerate here (to understate). There is no one making a "temple of Avodah Zara". There are a few people doing some meshugas'n in 770 that are not in any way violating halocho ch"v, but are definitely misunderstanding certain sources. Although they are not happy with the situation, the vast majority doesn't "stop" this small minority because it's a free country and we are opposed to violence. Also, many have tried to stop them in various ways.

    The 4,000 shluchim (kein yirbu) at the convention may have stayed in Crown Heights and visited 770, but their activities were not held in 770 and they went to a banquet at a separate location, not even in Crown Heights. The shluchim didn't go to the conference to be violent, ch"v, as you seem to expect of them, but to get inspired.

    As for saying Yechi, some shluchim in some Chabad Houses do it, but most don't.

    But even assuming that it's incorrect to say it, it's at worst a mistake, not Avodah Zara ch"v, or anything like it. When Moshiach actually comes, I'm sure you'll have no problem in declaring Yechi before him, even if he happens to be the Lubavitcher Rebbe.

    What is your problem with the Rebbe's mashkeh? Objects that belong to a Tzadik become holy, in a similar way to the idea that whenever a Jew uses something in this world to serve Hashem he brings holiness in to it, except that since the Tzaddik is so holy, the holiness that he draws down is far more intense. This is supported by the maamar Chazal: "kol ha'noitel perutah mei'iyov misboreich."

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