Sunday, August 10, 2008

Chabad - Messianics - Everyone is today!

There has been some debate as to whether the Messianic faction or the Anti-Messianic faction is the dominate one among Lubavitchers. This is in fact one of the key concerns of Prof. David Berger in his attack on Chabad.

I recently asked a Chabad friend of mine who is a distinguished talmid chachom, posek and askan about this issue. He said, "There is no one in Chabad today who doesn't think the Rebbe is Moshiach. The only dispute concerns political issues - should this fact be concealed or be revealed to outsiders." Thus the question suggests a false dichotomy which only serves to conceal the truth.

15 comments:

  1. I heard exactly the same statement 6 months ago, who was repeating what he heard from someone who learns in Kfar Chabad. The Rav I heard it from would not repeat unless he believed it was accurate.

    ReplyDelete
  2. I've heard it as well and read it on other sites. Kind of spooky, really.

    The best way to find out is to corner your local shaliach with material from identifychabad.org

    ReplyDelete
  3. the intellectual dishonesty reeks.

    you masquerade as 'daas torah' yet fail to even conduct a basic chakirah u'driasha k'din. all you need is a snippet of hearsay to support you twisted agenda and presto! you were kovay'ah the halachah.

    the logic is just brilliant. whisper accusations of conspiracy theory caliber which are not subject to the scrutiny of falsifiability with the certainty of their factual status as if it is a forgone conclusion.

    for shame.

    ReplyDelete
  4. This is a well known fact. I know many many Lubavitchers and have lived in 4 Lubavitch communities. With the exception of exactly two people, all the rest I met believe the Rebbe is Messiah.

    ReplyDelete
  5. I'm sorry but what is written here is a total lye. I myself have studied in Lubavitcher Yishivos, and happen to know as a matter of a fact that there are many bocharim there that do not believe that the rebbe zy”a continues to be moshiach even after his histalkus (petira). Besides this I know many very choshuver rabbonim & roshei yeshivos who explicitly stated their view point that the rebbe does not continue to be moshiach. A partial list: Rabbi Berel Levin, the chief editor of the new edition of the Shulchan Aruch Harav & one of the prominent moirei tzedek in crown heights (his view was expressed in a booklet that he eddited called Koivetz Moshiach Ugeula); Rabbi Leibell Shapiro, Rosh Yeshivas Lubavitch of Miami & his son Rabbi Chaim Shapiro, rosh beis medresh lehora'a of morristown NJ (I myself heard this from R' C Shapiro himself); Rabbi Yosef Avrohom Heller, Rosh Kolel of Crown Heights & one of the most prominent (if not the most prominent) poiskim of chabad today (he has stated his view publicly on many occasions); Rabbi Ezra Shochat, the renown rosh yeshivas ohr elchanan chabad of LA (he has publicly stated his opinion on many occasions); Rabbi Yechezkel Sofer, one of the well known mashpiem & lecturers of chabad in EY (his view is recorded in the book he wrote yisborru veyislabnu); Rabbi Chaim Rappeport, a more tzedek & from the well known hoige deiot of chabad (he stated his view in the book he wrote answering david berger)
    & the list go's on and on.
    It is also important to note that contrary to what has been stated here, those who do not define themselves as meschistim, which (at least in Chutz La'aretz) is the vast majority of chabad, besides what I already wrote that many (or most) of them don't bichlal believe that the rebbe zy”a is moshiach, even amogst those who privately do believe so, they do not believe this as a defendant thing & as one of the Ikrei Haemuna, rather they believe so only as a thing which is probable. Also a big deal is not made about it, it is something which is rarely mentioned, and by the lookes of things it is something which (even if we CH”V remain in golus) will not pass to the next generation.
    In summery in chabad there exists three camps:
    1)the minute camp of the meshechistim who make a big deal of the rebbe being moshiach (and within them itself there are a minute number of believers who believe that the rebbe is alive in a physical sense).
    2)Many of the anti meshechistem who totally reject the idea that the rebbe is moshiach.
    3)A section of the anti meshechistim who althogh believe that the rebbe is moshiach but don't make a big deal out of it not just to the outside but within themselves too & believe so only as something which is probable.
    This therefore being the case I would like to make the following point:
    Rabbi chaim rappeport, in his book authored as a response to david berger, makes an important point, namely that even if one is to argue that believing that the rebbe after his histalkus continues to be moshiach is contrary to halacha, nevertheless he still cannot render a meshechist as an apikores. The reason is that although many poiskim are of the opinion that one who denies any of the 13 ikrim (even beshogeg, as is known the vort from R' Chaim of brisk zt”l az a nebach apikoires iz oich an apikoires) is begeder Koifer, nevertheless that is only with regard someone who denies one of the ikrim in it's entirety, but someone who makes a mistake with regard to one of the details of the Ikrim (in our case: someone who mistakenly believes that moshiach can come from the dead), can certainly not be rendered as an apekoires (for example: lets say someone decides that moshiach has to be someone six feet tall & have black hair – although his belief is totally wrong and he is a fool but he is certainly not an apikoires). This therefore takes away david berger's demands that all meshechistim cannot shecht and be sofrim etc.
    This being said there is however still a concern that many make with regard to chabad (and I fully understand & agree with it): true that a meshechist is not an apikores, but meshechizem is develeping into a new religion; being that the belief that the rebbe is moshiach is such an integral part of the meshichsts beliefs therefore they are developing into a seperate stream of judaisim.
    However based on what I discussed before, this does not apply to any of the anti meshchistim (the majority of chabad) because besides the large numbers amongst them who don't believe the rebbe is moshiach, even those who do, don't believe so in a new-religion style as I wrote above, and therefore being that they are not apikursim and are not going away from the mainstream etc., just because they might be making a mistake is no reason to disclude them from the regular frum orthodox jews.
    May we all merit to be marbe in ahavas chinam & see moshiach here soon in our days.

    ReplyDelete
  6. "I recently asked a Chabad friend of mine who is a distinguished talmid chachom, posek and askan about this issue. He said, "There is no one in Chabad today who doesn't think the Rebbe is Moshiach. The only dispute concerns political issues"
    This smear did not begin with the above so called "chachom,posek and askan".It is a complete fallacy that is making the rounds on the various chabad bashing blogs.I know the truth to be just the opposite.To give this shtus any credence at all,but will not necessarily legitimize it, please reveal who this"talmid chochom,posek and askan" is.I know many distinguished Chabad talmidei chachomim,poskim and askonim who comepletely disagree with the above premise.

    ReplyDelete
  7. Eliyahu's comment is encouraging. Unfortunately, it flies in the face of the direct experiences of many who have dealt with Chabad.

    (I personally was the recipient of a lengthy discourse on the rebbe's continued status as Moshiach. This "discourse" was given in a Chabad shul in front of the entire congregation. I was the cause of the discourse because I walked out when they were singing Yechi. The fellow who gave the discourse was one who, until that moment, I had considered a talmid chacham.)

    Eliyahu, the problem many of us face is that, while what you say may be true, the message is not getting out. These prominent individuals need to to take a more proactive stance. Until then we have no choice but to judge based on what we see.

    ReplyDelete
  8. While Eliyahu's words writen in a blog counts for eliyahu; it may not count for those who are eager to know if there are people who are not afraid to use their REAL name to express their opinion that the Rebbe is not the Mashiach.

    Eliyahu may have succeeded to confuse the people but the facts do not add up to his post.

    All his claims notwithstanding: Everyone knows that in the written publications of chabad, where there are two such publications (Beis Mashiach, Kfar Chabad) one states openly non stop that the Rebbe is mashiach (beis mashiach).

    The other the most mainstream one (kfar chabad) and counts one mnay rabbis and mashpiim, while it does not publicize the Rebbe is mashiach, does NOT state that the Rebbe is not the mashiach or that perhaps he may perhaps not be the mashiach. That is something that is a real yardstick for one to evaluate and judge what are the real opinions of most lubavitchers.

    "choshuver rabbonim & roshei yeshivos who explicitly stated their view point that the rebbe does not continue to be moshiach'.

    Look carefully how we wrote: "does not CONTINUE to be mashiach", and not that he may perhaps not be the mashiach in the future!

    And what does "Ex;plicit" mean? That they talk secretly to to an individual (or to two or three people) and tell them not to tell their opinions to others?

    TO be fair from his "partial list" there is truth to some of them : "Rabbi Berel Levin, the chief editor of the new edition of the Shulchan Aruch Harav & one of the prominent moirei tzedek in crown heights (his view was expressed in a booklet that he eddited called Koivetz Moshiach Ugeula)";

    He wrote about it 12 years ago! and hasn't retracted his position (but he does not continue to speak on this matter). He wrote explicitly the idea that the Rebbe is not the mashiach.

    "Rabbi Leibell Shapiro, Rosh Yeshivas Lubavitch of Miami "

    Where can one see his written publication that he holds of this opinion? OR even a tape of his public announcement of this opinion?

    " his son Rabbi Chaim Shapiro, rosh beis medresh lehora'a of morristown NJ (I myself heard this from R' C Shapiro himself);"

    Same as before: Where can one get a tape of his public and explicit positions?

    " Rabbi Yosef Avrohom Heller, Rosh Kolel of Crown Heights ...(he has stated his view publicly on many occasions)";

    Where can one get a recording of his public positions on *this* matter?

    " Rabbi Ezra Shochat, the renown rosh yeshivas ohr elchanan chabad of LA (he has publicly stated his opinion on many occasions)';

    I believe that you are correct on this.

    "Rabbi Yechezkel Sofer, one of the well known mashpiem & lecturers of chabad in EY (his view is recorded in the book he wrote yisborru veyislabnu);"

    You are 100% correct about his position. But it is very important to note: that he is vilified by many lubavitchers and is called "yecheskel hakpofer"!

    "Rabbi Chaim Rappeport, a more tzedek & from the well known hoige deiot of chabad (he stated his view in the book he wrote answering david berger)"


    You are confusing the people: He does not write that the Rebbe is not the mashiach or that he may not the mashiach. He most importantly argues against david berger and also argues aganst stating that the Rebbe is mashiach presently. And obviously it is also worthwhile to mention that he too is called with many names by many lubavitchers.

    When you write "vast majority of chabadnikim" in CHUL do not define themselves as meshichistim "many of them bichlal do not believe the Rebbe is mashiach" and go on with some points (some valid ones) , nevertheless it is of the most importance to know that probably the most siable amount of the non meshchistim beleive, that even though it is not from the ikrey emunah of judaism to believe the rebbe is mashiach it is a most important creed in being a chossid: "if you do not beleive the REbbe is mashiach, how can you be a chassid?" This and similar statements are made when one ha a real one on one discussion or a more public argument and this argument is ultimately raised! with strong vehemence.

    TO summarize: one can make a real assessment by the publications that exist and those who support them! (reads them):


    "1)the minute camp of the meshechistim who make a big deal of the rebbe being moshiach"

    How can this be true: If the readership of Beis Mashiach is greater or equal to the readership of Kfar Chabad?

    "(and within them itself there are a minute number of believers who believe that the rebbe is alive in a physical sense)".

    How can this be so minimal when a significant number of articles in BM are written with this idea and so many readers are not repulsed by this very idea?

    "2)Many of the anti meshechistem who totally reject the idea that the rebbe is moshiach'.

    Where are their voices *recorded*? And what is "many"?

    "3)A section of the anti meshechistim who althogh believe that the rebbe is moshiach"
    Probably most of lubavitchers.

    "but don't make a big deal out of it" probably but not because they " believe so only as something which is probable"; But closer to truth is: they certainly believe with a certainty and believe that is a crucial issue with being a chossid.

    One thing I must concede that the writer is genuine regarding his statement "This being said there is however still a concern that many make with regard to chabad (and I fully understand & agree with it): true that a meshechist is not an apikores, but meshechizem is developing into a new religion; being that the belief that the rebbe is moshiach is such an integral part of the meshichsts beliefs therefore they are developing into a separate stream of Judaism".

    And this is very encouraging that many of these people will realize this and it will help them get out of the mess.

    ReplyDelete
  9. "While Eliyahu's words writen in a blog counts for eliyahu; it may not count for those who are eager to know if there are people who are not afraid to use their REAL name to express their opinion that the Rebbe is not the Mashiach."
    Why is it necessary for any one in Chabad to have to declare that that they are not meshichisten? It is a chutzpah to make such a demand.A well known brooklyn yeshiva has had a situation where one of their rabbaiem was accused of child molestation.Does that mean that every Rebbi in this institution has to declare publicly that he is not a molester? When the recent Kashrus scandal with a so called "kosher butcher" took place in Monsey,did any one demand that every butcher in monsey must prove , with a notarized kol koreh signed by meoh rabonim,that he certifiably kosher? Why are these standards applied only to Lubavitch? I find the apologetic's posted here to be nauseating.I doubt that the use of real names by the various posters on both sides of the fence will lend any creditability to their content.

    ReplyDelete
  10. Arthur,

    Please understand that your comparisons are a non starter: Those examples are the *notable exception* to the norm. (While it may be true that there has to more open war against the very few instances and not to shove them under the rug, nevertheless the molesters are still in the very minority).

    So too, the thief butchers and maachil trefos: They are in the very small minority.

    While meshichistim are the majority of lubavitch!

    Furthermore: The fact that in a the published magazines, both of them, never reject the notion gives rise to the legitimate concern that really in *real* life most are meshichistim which is the only reason why there is never a published article by someone stating that he does not belief that the Rebbe is the Mashiach.

    ReplyDelete
  11. "While meshichistim are the majority of lubavitch!"
    Do ligt der hunt bagroben.Your statement is an assumption.There is is no empirical proof that this is true and therefore this statement is arguable.I am a Lubavitcher and I am definitely not a Meshichist, closet or otherwise and the same applies to most Lubavitcher that I know.You build a straw house and then base your premise on it.
    The meshichisten are the most vocal and make the most noise and therefore seem to be in the majority.No Gallop poll was ever made as to your above assumption.
    As an insider I can say with almost absolute certainty that the silent majority of Lubavitcher are not meshichisten.I am of course fallible and therefore use the word "almost".You on the other hand make a statement without any qualification such as"maybe"or "it seems" and therefore your premise is a straw house.To base that which say from the fact Kfar Chabad does not deny that they are meshichistin brings us back to my original question.What obligates them to declare that they are not Meshichistin? The fact that some felt the need come out with their own magazine in opposition to Kfar Chabad is verification that the editorial staff of Kfar Chabad is definitely not.

    ReplyDelete
  12. Arthur,

    It's not an assumption. I know them first hand.

    I am offering you a kind of illustration and proof. Which has a greater readership Beis Mashiach or Kfar Chabad? If the "majority" would be counter to Yechi they would not have that number of readership (which perhaps surpasses that of the KF). Why is paying for a magazine with what he could have been "koneh chayey nafshoy" not a proof where his "nefesh" is?

    The meshichisten are not only the most vocal and make the most noise but they are the power that controls what is holiest to chabad: 770! If the majority would real anti meshichist they would not allow them to take control.

    In Erets Yisroel they manage to gather thousands of chassidim in the stadiums for 3 tammuz when they deny the histalkus! This shows further how there is a large number that aligns themselves in beleieving the Rebbe was not nistalek. (I"ll grant that this is NOT the majority of Lubavitchers who do hold that there some kind of histalkus).

    And why not base from the fact that Kfar Chabad has not produced in the past 14 years ONE article explaining that it is legitimate (not even to say with definite certainty) to beleive that the Rebbe is not mashiach? Being that it is a very important issue and that the meshichistim are loud and they educate masses it is only logical that those who believe otherwise would write articles explaining how their position is wrong? After all Kfar Chabad writes about numerous issues in which they differ with the Bais Mashiach.

    A while back Rabbi Brod of KC had articles explaining how some of the BM make a chilul Hashem and that we do not have to publicize etc. but never does he explain that perhaps the whole idea is not true!

    In another post someone stated that Rav Ezra Shochat holds that the Rebbe is not mashiach. Kfar Chabad had recently an interview with him. They spoke about Mashiach etc. but they did not mention that in his opinion this is not the proper belief.

    Let's take another example: They do write articles negating the idea that the Rebbe is here physically. Why have they not written such articles about the Rebbe not being mashiach?

    Furthermore: You had a few years back a group of people Mashpiim and others getting together and writing a book how to believe that the rebbe was not nistalek is wrong. You had people like Reb Yoel and others. But you cannot have them getting together to write about the Rebbe not being mashiach! You know why....

    ReplyDelete
  13. "But you cannot have them getting together to write about the Rebbe not being mashiach! You know why.."
    Just as it is ridiculous to say who is Moshiach it is just as ridiculous to say who is not Moshiach.Ultimately it's the Ribono Shel Olem who makes that decision and for us to make a statement either way, forcing our personal beliefs unto the Ribono Shel Olam kaviyochel,borders on kfirah which is exactly what the meshichisten are guilty of.
    As you seem to be familiar with the politics of 770 you are most likely aware of the various court cases and even physical altercations for it's control.The meshichistim are fanatics who will not stop at anything to maintain that control.Your average Lubavitcher, on the other hand,is not willing to go to the lengths the meshichistim are capable of.

    ReplyDelete
  14. I am glad to see that my words were read, and being that a few important point were raised I would like to address them:
    1)it was mentioned a few times what I wrote about the meshechistim being a minority & to this people responded that beis moshiach is read just as much as kfar chabad etc. those who read my words carefully would have noticed that I stressed a number of times that in CHUTZ LAORETZ they are a minority. Unfortunately in Ey they are about half of chabad (or at least what is called chabad – I however do not consider the extreme meshchistem who make the iker of there avoidas hashem publicizing their mistaken beliefs, to be chabad at all. The avoidas hashem of a true chabad chossid is learning chasidus in depth, davening beavoida & having mesirus nefesh for kiyum hatorah vehamitzvos by trying to bring each & every jew closer to it). Another important point: the mishechistim (at least the Israely one's) are like a cult. Therefore each & every one of them see it as a choiv kadosh to read there party's newspaper, come to their gatherings etc., a regular anti meshechist on the other hand, unless he is interested, does not feel any specific need to buy kfar chabad. Another important point: beis moshiach has an english section thus making it more popular.
    2)Someone commented on my usage of language “does not CONTINUE to be mashiach”, i'm sorry if I wasn't clear, I meant to say will not be the moshiach (the “continue” was referring to the fact that before his histalkus it was verry probable that the rebbe zy”a was moshiach, ma shein kein now).
    3)A point was made about the kfar chabad magazine not ever writing clearly that the rebbe is not moshiach. This point is something which bothers me very much too, unfortunately the kfar chabad magazine is headed by people who just as much interested in making money as publicizing the true chabad viewpoint – therefore because they want to also attract non extreme meshechist readers they are carefull never to write that the rebbe is not moshiach. I would also like to point out that, contrary to what the kfar chabad write themselves, what is written in their magazine dos in no way represent the veiw points of the rabonim & mashpiem. I myself heard from R' Yoel Kahn Shlit”a that he is very upset about the way the Kfar chabad magazine works that there are no rabbonim who check over what is written there etc.
    4)A point was raised about how come the rabbonim don't publicize enough their views about the rebbe not being moshiach. First of all it is important to point out that there was a publication called koivetz moshiach ugeula which gave out a few issues, and the view of many was expressed there (such as R' berell levin, R' baruch obulender rav of chabad in budepest, R' SB weinberg one the prominent shluchim and more) that the rebbe is not moshiach. Nevertheless I do agree agree that the rabonim should be doing more to spread their views. However 2 possible reasons can be made why they are not doing so: a) they feel that the ikar is to stop the people who are making a big deal of the rebbe being moshiach thus forming themselves into a new religion (as explained in my previous post), and it less important to stop people from making a stupid mistake, therefore they feel that by not so much stressing the issue of the rebbe being moshiach they will have a greater hashpoa on the people who are making a big deal of the rebbe being moshiach trying to get them out of there dangerous derech. b) in some cases there are people that will lose there jobs because of the influence of extreme meshechistim if they publicly & repeatability state that the rebbe is not moshiach (an example of this is R' Shmuel Zayintz who now works as a Magid shiur in the chabad yeshiva in morristown, who lost his job in another yeshiva because of certain meshistim who had an strong influence & were upset about him trying to convince certain bocharim that the rebbe is not moshiach).
    Some writers questioned some of the names I brought of rabonim who don't believe that the rebbe is moshiach. I would like to respond to these Tanos:
    A) R' berell levin: it was mentioned that since he published his view a few years ago he hasn't done so since. Is it a chiyuv for him to repeat his views every day? His views are already known & he obviously sees no reason to repeat them.
    B) R' Leibell shapiro – when I wrote that I heard this from R' chaim Shapiro himself I meant that I also heard about his fathers views from him. With regard to him making his views public, it should be pointed out that even before I heard from R' chaim about his fathers views I already heard from a number of people about R' Leibl's views therefore it must be that he publicly has stated his views before.
    C) R' chaim shapiro – it is true that he has not publicly stated his views, but he is not the type to make nay public statements. Anyone who wants however can speak to him himself & he will gladly tell you his views.
    D) R' Yosef heller – it is true that his view has never been formally recorded but it is very well known & he has told it to many people & i'm sure if you contact him he'll tell it to you to.
    E) R' Yechezkell Sofer – someone wrote that although it is true ehat I wrote about him but he is considered a koifer in the whole lubavitch. This is mamesh a lye, he is asked to farbreng in all none meshechist yeshivos. Just last year he farbregnd as a guest of the Va'ad talmidei hatmimim haoylomy in crown heights for all israely bocharim who were in new york for chidesh tishrei. He was recently interviewed in Kfar chabad magezine etc.
    F) R' Chaim rapeport - “You are confusing the people: He does not write that the Rebbe is not the mashiach or that he may not the mashiach. He most importantly argues against david berger and also argues aganst stating that the Rebbe is mashiach presently”, if you'll take a close look at the beginning of his book that he writes quite clearly that his personal belief is that the rebbe will NOT BE MOSHIACH.
    Boruch hahsem I was not challenged with regard to R' Ezra Shochat Shlit”a.
    5)It was mentioned that what I wrote about the rebbe being moshiach not being an ikar by the anti meshechistim isn't true etc. a cannot help but just repeat what I wrote that I myself learnt in lubavitcher yeshivos, i'll add: most of my chaveirim are lubavitchers, and what I write is poshut what I see as the metzius.

    ReplyDelete
  15. For an interview with Reb yoal Kahn published in Kfar Chabad Magazine condeming Mishechitim follow this link.
    http://www.shturem.net/index.php?section=news&id=12355&lang=english

    ReplyDelete

ANONYMOUS COMMENTS WILL NOT BE POSTED!
please use either your real name or a pseudonym.