LazerA's comment to "Chabad III- The apologetics aren't satisfying":
The rest of Shloime's comment isn't worth responding to.
I have noticed in an interesting repeating pattern in the posts from the defenders of Chabad (asides from the ad hominem attacks that continue unabated). In general, they will make an assertion and then support it with citations without even a brief synopsis of the material. Having looked up a few of these citations, I begin to suspect that this is a strategic approach, being that the material cited is frequently inconvenient for their purposes.
The responses by Shloime is illuminating if only because he apparently acknowledges that current Chabad teaches that one's primary spiritual focus should be one's rebbe. He simply claims that this is not a chiddush, rather it is found is found in earlier chassidic and traditional sources.
If this is found not to be true, then we are left with a serious problem in Chabad.
Unfortunately, I was not able to look up all of the citations (I couldn't find anything in the Tanchuma Kadum that was relevant, but the print I have doesn't have paragraph numbers, and I don't own the Chida's Midbar Kedemos). Nevertheless, the sources I was able to look up did not, in the least, support the idea of making one's rebbe into one's primary spiritual focus.
Midrash Lekach Tov, hak. l'p noach - simply states that there is great benefit in being davuk to tzadikim. This, of course, is not a chiddush. There is a mitzva of being davuk to chachamim, as discussed at length by the Rambam in Deios 6. This does not mean that one should make his rebbe into his primary spiritual focus.
Tzavaas HaRivash par.50 - Simply says that one should not look at the faces of those who thoughts are not always focused on Hashem. However, looking in the face of those who are always thinking of Hashem is beneficial. That's it. Again, this does not constitute making one's rebbe into your main spiritual focus.
Reishis Chochma, shaar hakedusha 8 is a lengthy discussion on taharas einayim. In one paragraph (17 in my print) he states that looking into the face of your rebbe is a mitzva and a tikkun for your eyes. From the context he may even be speaking about during davening. This, clearly, is the most radical statement so far (though the entire perek goes far beyond our normal standards of behavior). Nevertheless, even this does not constitute making your rebbe into your primary spiritual focus.
Maybe others can fill us in on some of the other citations. However, if this is a representative sampling, we are left with only one possible conclusion. Chabad, as acknowledged, sees their rebbe as their primary spiritual focus. They have convinced themselves that this is true for all chassidic groups and is actually a mainstream idea. However, they are wrong.
The rest of Shloime's comment isn't worth responding to.
Read the book Noam Elimelech. The whole center theme in that perush is about the tzaddik.
ReplyDeleteI believe that things got out of hand after the Rebbe's histalkus. While a lot of radical things may have been said (many many times), there was ALWAYS the power of the "brake" which stopped and halted the lunatics from taking things out of hand. For instance, it is known and public record that the Rebbe in public audiences scolded and rebuked chassidim for looking at him during davening. (He did it twice if I'm not mistaking). He spoke at length how this is completely wrong. He told them that next time he would notice that he would give them a Siddur to look inside the siddur during their prayers. He scolded the elders for not telling the youngsters what is right and what is wrong!
ReplyDeleteThis really reflects all your discussions here: All these things said by the Rebbe are found in earlier sources but he said it in a way that purposely remained vague and abstract so that the masses not abuse it and misuse it and so that it is NOT translated in a way that is contrary to the regular belief in Jewish thought. (So the earlier quote was kept in a way that certainly fits let's say the explanation of Rabbi Posner and which actually, as many here have said is extremely consistent with the way these issues are explained in Chabad thought -as Micha acknowledges that with chabad version of tzimzumim he can hear how this is not contrary to general thought- and after all that statement was said to those who were familar with this language. As a matter of fact, later in time when this work was supposed to be reprinted the Rebbe asked that those passages be ommitted).
From the early quote under discussion, and throughout every single issue there was and is a strong even "radical" (akin found in Reshit Chochmah etc. and the like and probably some of these are found in Noam Elimelech etc.) statements but there were always brakes, and if needed in ACTION by the Rebbe to stop the misinterpretation thereof to ways that are contrary to the general thought as beleived by Jewry for millenium.
The same with the primary focus of a Rebbe. While certainly there were strong statements as to the role and position of a Rebbe (and as pointed out, there are extremely strong statements in earlier chassidic writings by tzadikim such as Kedushas Levi and Noam Elimelech etc.) ; nevertheless the focal point by the Rebbe's most of statements were that the Rebbe is merely a Shliach to connect Jews to Hashem and to serve Hashem better was always the bottom line. (One can see this stronger in the Videos of the Sunday Dollars where many came to thank the REbbe for this or that issue and he responded so frequently and with a strong vehemence; that he is only a conduit and messenger and repeating what Hashem says etc.).
What happened was: that after the histalkus the more hothead mashpiim and unfortunately even the level headed and the "thinkers" have lost the cool and the common ground in these matters. They also want to keep the real connection with the Rebe alive. But they misapplied it in practice and were not skillful enough to know how moderate the ideas and to channel these "Radical" ideas in a way that conforms and combines with the normal way Jews thought for centuries. Let us hope their less hotter heads (there are very few of them but there are) and those who are filled with the ideology that anything that is criticized from outside is automatically to be shunned will prevail, for the truth must be told: the ideologies of Chabad and the Rebbe that have so much to contribute to all of Jewry and in so many areas of Jewish life (study and fulfillment of mitzvot and serving the ALmighty) and that we must ultimately meet the final destination that everyone of us is so much awaiting the final redemption where and when we will all dedicate all of our energy to know and serve G-d.
Very good. You (LazerA) level a series of serious and unsubstantiated charges against what you call 'Current Chabad', saying that; "Current Chabad's focus on it's rebbe goes far beyond that found in mainstream chassidic sources. In Chabad today we find a totally new phenomenon of people using their human leader as their primary spiritual focus and purpose. Mitzvos are done to give nachas to the rebbe; the rebbe sees all, knows all, and controls all. Such an approach, transforming one's rebbe into one's primary spiritual focus, is not found in any sources outside of current Chabad." In doing so, you reveal apaaling ignorance of Chassidic history in general, and the classic Chassidic texts. You somehow expect your accusations to be accepted as 'fact', and seek to shift the burden of proof to the accused - a bizarre twist to be sure! In your eyes, Chabad is 'guilty until proven innocent'. In typical hit-and-run fashion, you then cry 'ad hominem' when you don't like the response. Never in Chabad, and certainly not today, has, to quote your vile accusation, "an approach transforming one's rebbe into one's primary spiritual focus" been advocated or accepted. Attachment to the rebbe / tzaddik is a means of enhancing /accelerating one's attachment to Hashem. The sources that I quoted earlier simply speak strongly of the importance and benefit of attachment to a tzadik, and say 'that one thereby merits both this world and the world to come, whereas separating from tzadikim causes one to be lost from this world' (see also Psikta rabbasi sec.11:2, yalkut on shir hashirim ch.6).
ReplyDeleteYou don't like somebodys explanation, interpretation, or otherwise - good for you ! 'Nayssi sefer venechzeh' - cite sufficient sources to support your position and let the chips fall where they may - 'kach hi darko shel torah - hamchlokes' - but the fact that you in all your educated glory don't like something.... which derech is that ?! Libi omer li ?!!
Instead you choose to slander an entire community of yereim-v'shlemim, thereby likely depriving yourself of both this world and the next (you don't need me to point you to where in hil. tshuva this is clear, do you?), and you cry 'ad hominem' when you don't like the response....nebech.
I will shortly, iy"h, post many more sources explaining the issues raised on this blog, and lending historical context. Meanwhile, I'd suggest the Noam Elimelech as a good (and easy) starting point, if you'd like to educate yourself.
Why would he bother studying the Noam Elimelech ? Doing so would destroy the whole premise for his attack on chabad, and let's face it, that's all his rant is really about. Notice how he demands sources for things that HE has decided are out of the mainstream, but he doesn't provide any sources for his own rant.
ReplyDeleteThe Noam Elimelech (I have one sitting beside me at this moment)and other chassidic sources do put great emphasis on the importance of the tzadik/rebbe.
ReplyDeleteThe tzadik is seen as the source of shefa for other Jews, and the relationship with the rebbe is seen as essential to one's spiritual growth.
Nevertheless, one's primary focus must remain Hashem. One prays to Hashem, one does mitzvos for Hashem, one trusts in Hashem, we strive to be davuk to Hashem. Deveikus to a rebbe is only seen as a means towards deveikus to Hashem, not an end in itself.
The idea that one's primary spiritual focus is one's rebbe is at variance with this. You can only have one primary spiritual focus, is it Hashem or your rebbe?
(If you need sources to prove that Hashem should be your primary spiritual focus, then we are truly wastibng time.)
LazerA said...
ReplyDeleteThe Noam Elimelech (I have one sitting beside me at this moment)and other chassidic sources do put great emphasis on the importance of the tzadik/rebbe.
This is the understatement of the year...
The tzadik is seen as the source of shefa for other Jews, and the relationship with the rebbe is seen as essential to one's spiritual growth.
Are you sure ? How DARE the saintly R' Elimelech make such bold assertions ? Did he clear it with 'gedolim' like you ?
Nevertheless, one's primary focus must remain Hashem. One prays to Hashem, one does mitzvos for Hashem, one trusts in Hashem, we strive to be davuk to Hashem. Deveikus to a rebbe is only seen as a means towards deveikus to Hashem, not an end in itself.
Hate to break it to you, but nobody ever said anything else - certainly not the sifrei-chassidus (chabad & others) you seem so painfully ignorant of.
The idea that one's primary spiritual focus is one's rebbe is at variance with this. You can only have one primary spiritual focus, is it Hashem or your rebbe?
This type of disgusting slander is beyond the pale, though ,maybe not for your ilk. Where in any sefer of chassidus does it say otherwise ? You go and create a straw man, out of your own hate (by your own sorry admission), and then attack it. Your ignorance of basic chassidic texts is on full display, yet you can't give up the fight, as this slanderous campaign is obviously so very important to you. Let me ask you a question (and I'd be glad for R' Eidensohn's halachic opinion):
When someone uses an inherently unquantifiable forum like the internet to slander an unknown quantity of Jews, and this slander has been heard or seen by an unquantifiable number of people;
Can someone (LazerA) possibly do teshuva for this, or has he (regrettably) likely lost his share in olam-haba ? Rambam rules in hilchos teshuva (4:3) that "among them are five things, that one who does them CANNOT do complete teshuva, as they are sins between man and his fellow, and he cannot identify his peer...nor beg his forgiveness. And these are they;
1. He who curses the multitudes, and didn't curse a particular person SO THAT HE MAY SEEK ATONEMENT FROM HIM.... "
Further complicating your situation is the fact that you have also made a habit of both maligning and embarrassing this unknown quantity of people. As such, you may well have lost your share in olam-habo (see rambam hil. teshuva 3:14, bavli b"m 58b & rashi there, shaarei teshuva l'rabbeinu yona 3 etc.*). Considering that in your posts on this blog you have habitually committed multiple transgressions which cause this severest punishment, let me ask you, was it worth it ?
*I know a talmid chochom of your stature appreciates sources, so as an afterthought, why not take a look at R'Yonah on avos where he writes that "hamalbin pnei chaveiro zeh tuldas hadvorim sheyehoreg bahem v'al yaavor" - where does your jihad fit in here ?
"The Noam Elimelech (I have one sitting beside me at this moment)and other chassidic sources do put great emphasis on the importance of the tzadik/rebbe.
ReplyDeleteThe tzadik is seen as the source of shefa for other Jews, and the relationship with the rebbe is seen as essential to one's spiritual growth.
Nevertheless, one's primary focus must remain Hashem. One prays to Hashem, one does mitzvos for Hashem, one trusts in Hashem, we strive to be davuk to Hashem. Deveikus to a rebbe is only seen as a means towards deveikus to Hashem, not an end in itself".
The same in Tanya and even stronger: In Chapter 2 he explains that the "dvekut" to a tzadik is a kin to dvekut to schinah mamash because through being attached to a tzadik (and talmid chacham) then all "nefesh, ruach, neshamah" of all masses are connected with their first essence: chochmah ilaah" that is one thing with Hashem "hu vechachmatoh echad". Iow: The highest level of attachment to the Almighty is reached through attachment to tzadikim and talmidey chachamim. Iow: the main focus of the tzadik and talmid chacham is that he connects the souls of all jews with the Almighty!
I'm sorry, I missed Shloime's response. Now it seems that Shloime has clarified that he, like myself, does not approve of the idea of transforming one's rebbe into one's primary focus.
ReplyDeleteIn his earlier response he did NOT deny this, on the contrary, he appeared to defend it, citing sources in its favor. Moreover, other pro-Chabad commenters still appear to support it. This has muddied the waters a great deal.
The fact that Shloime, thus far, appears incapable of carrying on a conversation without insulting those he disagrees with has, of course, not improved matters.
In any case, at this point it seems that we can agree that making one's rebbe into one's primary spiritual focus is wrong and is not supported by any traditional sources, even within the chassidic world.
This brings us to the widespread perception and criticism of current Chabad that they have done just this.
The radio advertisements announcing that the Lubavitcher rebbe says that Jews should keep various mitzvos are an obvious case in point. The Lubavitcher rebbe is not the reason Jews should do mitzvos!
The widely publicized declarations that the LLR was a prophet whose words are binding on all Jews, and that he is moshiach, are similar obvious examples.
It is well-known examples like these (accompanied by innumerable private such encounters throughout the Jewish world) that have created the, in my opinion convincing, perception that current Chabad has moved from a God-centered religion to Rebbe-centered religion.
I have yet to hear anything from the defenders of Chabad to convince me that this perception is wrong.
As for my demands for proof, I have two brief responses:
A) The main issue for which I was seeking proof was the claim that it is proper to make your rebbe into your primary spiritual focus. My demand for proof in this was justified, as such a claim flies in the face of traditional Torah thought. Now it seems that this claim has been abandoned and proof for it is no longer needed.
B) Being that the concerns being expressed here are widespread throughout the Torah world, it would seem to me that defenders of Chabad would welcome the opportunity to demonstrate their falsity. Unfortunately, it seems that some of these concerns are all too justified. (Thus, thanks to R' Oliver's earnest efforts, I have become convinced that the LLR did indeed claim to be a navi without any halachic justification.)
I would like to add one personal note on why I am personally convinced that current Chabad has placed the Rebbe as their primary spiritual focus.
ReplyDeleteI attended a Camp Gan Yisrael (Midwest) when I was a kid in the very early '80s. (So much for my family's antagonism to Chabad, huh?)
I remember the entire camp singing "leshana haba be770" and "u'va'u haovdim... v'hishtachavu lashem behar hakodesh b'770 - 770 - 770 etc."
We also saluted the rebbe every morning after davening. There was a picture of the rebbe in every bunk's room and we were told by the counselors that the rebbe could see through his pictures.
There was no question in my mind then, and I didn't even realize there was anything wrong with it yet, that this was a religion of the Rebbe.
Another personal tidbit (not entirely relevant but interesting) is that I actually have a personal debt of gratitue to the LLR.
When my father was in Telz yeshiva, he was a beginning student (he didn't come from a Torah background). While in Telz he got involved with a secret Chabad "kiruv" program that was trying to save the poor deluded yeshiva bochurim from their false religion.
At one point my father went to Crown Heights and had yechidus with the rebbe. My father told the rebbe that he wanted to leave Telz and go to a Chabad yeshiva so he could learn chasidus. The rebbe told him to stay in Telz and learn normal Torah.
Most Lubavitcher's accuse my father of lying when he says this story. In any case, I have to be grateful to the rebbe, because if it weren't for him I would have been a Lubavitcher. (As it is, my family remained close to Lubavitch and I have many Chabad minhagim, not the least being the siddur.)
I certainly never said anything that could confirm this vile misnagdish canard that chasidim (of any group) focus on hiskashrus to a Rebbe at the expense of hiskashrus to Hashem, ch"v.
ReplyDeleteOn the contrary, the whole purpose of the hiskashrus to a Rebbe is to connect to Hashem, precisely because Hashem reveals Himself in every generation via the Tzadikim of that generation.
Rabbi Eidensohn,
ReplyDeleteI ask as a level-headed reader who happens to be Lubavitch that you not allow comments from posters that use ad hominems .We can have a civil discussion without attacking messengers
We Lubavitchers aree passionate and can get carried away, that is all the more reason to use the censor stick
(Klimowitzer, do me a personal favour and stop using insults, it makes your position look week)