Rabbi Micha Berger responsed to Rabbi Oliver "
Chabad - can only be understood from inside by tho...":
And I think it's unfair that you assume I'm ignorant. It argues against your point if all you can do is repeat charges that anyone who disagrees must be ignorant. The truth is, you have no idea how much machashavah I learned, and which derakhim's works I've gone through.
In any case, if your reply to my quoting lines from the texts is just "if you saw the whole thing inside", I'll add to my earlier observation that it's unwise for me to maintain this discussion that it's also impossible as you leave me nothing to discuss.
The whole discussion of memeutza hammechabeir in a tzimtzum lo kepeshuto context is too large for a chain of comments anyway.
Just one last teaster, note that the rebbe in the same maamar is quite clear that Yisrael ve'Oraisa veQBH is also a case of memutza hammechabeir and also quite clear that it is not about qesher but actual identity. And then goes on to deny that the qesher of chassid to rebbe really ends (in the ideal) with hisqashrus "nar es vvert kula chad mamash" (opening paragraph of 10 Shevat #41).
I find it ironic that the same people who in other contexts will vehemently argue that its forbidden to learn nistar with young people or people who havent learnt enough nigleh...Still feel that they are able to explain (and even critique) deep concepts of nistar over the internet! Asmehah!
ReplyDeleteChet HaEgel was the creation of an intermediary between G-d and man. Chabad messianisn returns to this Sin. The rest of Jewry is repeating the Sin of Aharon by playing along, hoping that somehow things will work out, that Moshiach will come before the Avodah Zarah will spread all over.
ReplyDeleteWe should stay away from all aspects of this movement. I have come to realize that we should not even discuss with them. A pertinent danger of discussion and exposure to their material is that one might come to think that Moshiach will be an intermediary like the Rebbe.
1. So I shouldn't assume ... Are you saying that I'm wrong, and that you're actually quite learned in Chassidus Chabad (the school of thought that you're seeking to discredit)?
ReplyDelete2. Actually, it's a maamar, not a sicha. Looks like you know so little about Chabad literature that you don't know the difference.
We should stay away from all aspects of this movement. I have come to realize that we should not even discuss with them. A pertinent danger of discussion and exposure to their material is that one might come to think that Moshiach will be an intermediary like the Rebbe.
ReplyDelete=====================
If you are really afraid that talking to your fellow Jews might mess you up - then you shouldn't do it.
I obviously strongly disagree with you as well your characterization of the movement. Using your own analogy I would suggest you read the Kuzari's understanding of the Chet
"Chet HaEgel was the creation of an intermediary between G-d and man. Chabad messianisn returns to this Sin."
ReplyDelete1. Thanks for that reference. Actually, on the contrary, the Chet HaEgel consisted of the abandonment of the belief in Moshe Rabeinu (as the Yidden had shown earlier: Vayaaminu baHashem uvMoshe Avdo), which led to what it led to. It's lack of emunas Tzadikim that leads to avodah zoro, not the opposite, ch"v.
2. There's nothing inherently wrong with identifying someone as Moshiach: the Rambam gives clear criteria in Hilchos Melochim of who qualifies as Moshiach so that Jews can identify him if necessary. If you don't agree with the identification of some Jews, well you're entitled to your opinion, but hysterically calling other Jews ovdei etc., ch"v, because--in YOUR opinion--they misinterpret a halocho in the Mishnah Torah is completely ridiculous.
DT,
ReplyDeleteWhat you write is unclear to me.
Do you disagree that Chabad messianism created an intermediary between G-d and man?
Or do you think that it is not wrong to create such an intermediary?
Or do you think that serving such an intermediary is not Avodah Zarah? That can be argued, also for Chet HaEgel. And also for Jews for Jesus.
Or do your resist the idea that the punishment for Chet HaEgel would be applicable to this case. Then I am with you.
Speaking with fellow Jews is great. Arguing with Chabad propagandists is futile and I fear that exposure to their teachings is harmful and confusing to most Jews.
"the Rambam gives clear criteria in Hilchos Melochim of who qualifies as Moshiach so that Jews can identify him if necessary'.
ReplyDeleteAnd also states unambigously as a Halacha that a certain individual is "KNOWN not to be the mashiach"! That fits Halocho fits exactly the scenario of Lubavitchers. Every Jew has a right and obligation to state that the Rambam rules unequovocally that such a person is known not to be the mashiach!
Mr. Lehrman, you just have no idea what you're talking about. How much Chasidus Chabad and how many sichos of the Rebbeim of Chabad have you ever learnt, that you so confidently dismiss and denigrate these teachings.
ReplyDeleteAs for your talk of "intermediary": The concept of connecting to a Tzadik, a Moshe Rabeinu--which is generic to all streams of Chasidus and not just Chabad--has scores of sources supporting it in both sifrei nigleh and nistar, and even in pashtus haksuvim (e.g., parshas Korach). The fact that you so blithely dismiss it demonstrates your ignorance not only in the teachings of Chabad, but of Torah in general.
Concerning the earlier comment from anon. regarding the Rambam, it is not correct that the Rambam says unequivocally that Moshiach can't come from the dead. That's an interpretation that one could read in to it. And if it's a matter of deciding halacha, t's not for every Jew to say, but for Rabonim.
ReplyDeleteIn any case, my point was that this is at most a matter of a disagreement on the meaning of a halocho in Mishneh Torah, NOT the nasty language that was being used that I will not repeat.
Rabbi Oliver,
ReplyDeleteRambam is extremely clear in Halachik and unambiguos terms: A person that was regarded mashiach in his lifetime and departed the world without success to bring the final redemption (building temple, ingathering of jews), is is KNOWN with certainty that he is not the one whom the Torah promised (although he can still be considered amongst the kosher kings).
1. Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneersohn tz”l, known as, ‘The Rebbe,’ was NOT the Mashiach.
ReplyDeleteThose who erroneously believe him to be the Mashiach that Am Yisrael is waiting for today, are bordering on Christianity, and committing the grave sin of Avodah Zarah, Idolatry.
Idolatry is forbidden in the Torah, and is the Second of the Asseret Hadibrot.
Similarly in the case of Breslov with Rav Nachman tz”l.
2. There should be NO MEDIATOR between a person’s tefillot and Hashem.
ReplyDeleteIf a person chooses to use intercession instead of praying directly to Hashem, this is completely Assur.
If the leaders of Lubavitch/Chabad encouraged people to use the “Igrot” /(“Igros”) - including Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, tz”l - they were wrong. Using the Igrot is using intercession. Similarly the practices of
(1) "reading out the Igrot request to a PICTURE of Rabbi Schneersohn tz"l" is direct Avodah Zarah. We are only allowed to pray to Hashem.
(2) sending faxes to the Bet HaChaim should be stopped immediately.
(3) Praying directly to the Tzaddik at the Bet HaChaim is wrong. It causes tremendous tsaar to the Neshamah of the Tzaddik in Shamayim.
We pray only to Hashem – directly ourselves. NO mediator is permitted.
These practices are abhorrent and against the Torah. They are assur and forbidden, and should all be stopped.
If the tzaddik advised that people do this in his lifetime – he was wrong. And this must be corrected. Speedily.
TESHUVAH to Hashem should be done speedily instead - by the whole of the Lubavitch organisation especially. The whole of the Lubavitch organisation is currently all refusing to do Teshuvah.
Similarly in the case of Breslov, with those who go Uman to pray directly to the Tzaddik – instead of directly to Hakadosh Baruch Hu. “Intercession” and “mediation” is against the Torah.
The Torah cannot be mixed with Avodah Zarah. This is twisting the Torah, and the Torah must remain straight.
2a.
ReplyDelete• There should be NO MEDIATOR between a person’s tefillot and Hashem.
Hashem likes to hear the prayers, tefillot, from our OWN mouths. Even if all we know is how to recite the first 3 letters of the Aleph Bet: Aleph, Bet, Gimmel...
Our very own tefillot TO HASHEM, are much more precious than anything else.
By going to the Bet HaChaim (cemetery - incorrectly referred to as “the Ohel” by Lubavitch), and lighting a candle, praying, making a request, and then going home – such a person is “leaving it all to the tzaddik” who is not physically alive. You can’t leave it all “to him!”. This is completely Assur and forbidden.
We too, can be tzaddikim – and be like the tzaddik. The tzaddik has already made all his tefillot to Hashem in his lifetime. And these are very precious to Hashem. The tzaddik has now passed on.
Hashem is now waiting for US – to make our OWN tefillot to Him.
We pray to Hashem – at all times.
If a person is insisting on praying to one of the creations of Hashem, instead of directly to the King Himself, Hashem will say to us, "You are meant to pray to ME!"
Remember that Hashem, our G-d, is a very "JEALOUS G-D" who demands "EXCLUSIVE WORSHIP." (2nd Commandment of the Asseret Hadibrot.)
What is your logic in going there?
The Ashkenazi tradition has encouraged people to do this, and it is very wrong.
Teshuvah to Hashem must be done quickly.
3. The Jewish People is a “Holy People.” “Am Kadosh.”
ReplyDeleteWe are referred to as being Hashem’s special “Treasure.” We are a “Holy Nation,” and so holy, that we are to emulate the Cohanim, who are of a much higher stature than the rest of the Jewish People. One day, we will all be on the level of a “Kingdom of Priests.”
Hashem has told us, “.…Ve’atem tiheyu li Mamlechet Kohanim ve’goi kadosh…” (Yitro, 19:5-6)
“…And you shall be to Me, a KINGDOM OF PRIESTS, and a HOLY NATION….”
The Benei Yisrael must follow the example of the true Cohanim. We should emulate the Cohanim in our daily lives. The Cohanim are not allowed to go into any cemetery (Jewish or not Jewish), as they cannot come into contact with ANY meitim whatsoever. We too, should emulate the Kohanim in our daily lives, and be pure like them.
We too, should not be coming into contact with meitim where we can help it.
Hashem has told us, “.…Ve’atem tiheyu li Mamlechet Kohanim ve’goi kadosh…” (Yitro, 19:5-6)
“…And you shall be to Me, a KINGDOM OF PRIESTS, and a HOLY NATION….”
A person’t tefillot, prayers, from the Kotel, or from his or her own house are truly delightful to Hashem. A person can also go to the Kotel to pray, and make the journey there, to pray to Hashem. Hashem’s Presence is always there.
4. Why was the place of Moshe Rabeinu, the very greatest of all the Prophets, kept hidden from us? Precisely so that Moshe would c”v never be worshipped. So that people would never pray to Moshe, c”v, instead of directly to Hashem, themselves. The Torah states very clearly:
ReplyDelete“…velo yada ish et kevurato ad hayom hazeh” (Vezot Haberacha 34:6) “…and no man knows the place that he was buried even to this day.”
If people are praying to a tzaddik, who is finite – and of far lesser stature than Moshe Rabeinu – instead of to Hashem – who is Infinite – that is avodah zarah.
If people wish to go to the Kivrei Tzaddikim to pray to Hashem from there, that is their choice. Far better, is to encourage people to go instead to the most holy place in the world – the Kotel. Hashem’s Presence is always there.
The Kotel is where people should be going to pray to Hashem. Not the Bet HaChaim.
5. If people want to pray to anyone else, and make requests of any being other than Hakadosh Baruch Hu, they might as well join Christianity.
When Moshe Rabeinu prayed, he prayed to Hashem. He did not pray to any Malachim or any celestial beings. These are all the creations of Hashem.
We are not allowed to pray to the creations of Hashem.
Similarly, with regard to the Selichot, and the Neilah prayer for Yom Kippur in the Ashkenazi tradition - they include direct Tefillot and requests to Malachim.
The Malachim are the creations of Hashem.
We are not allowed to pray to any Malachim.
This is completely assur and causes very great damage and harm. I emphasise that this is something very grave which needs to be rectified as well - speedily.
The Selichot and the Neilah Tefillah for Yom Kippur should be amended speedily to remove all prayers and requests to Malachim.
6. The false argument used by Lubavitch to permit intercession on a person’s behalf, is the act of Calev ben Yefuneh praying at the Cave of Machpelah in Chevron. He prayed for success in his mission of “spying out” the Land, Eretz Yisrael.
ReplyDeleteNo one can use this as a precedent for asking the Tzaddikim - and specifically, Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneersohn tz"l - who are no longer alive physically on earth, to pray on a person’s behalf. This causes them tremendous suffering in Shamayim.
This is twisting the Torah, and the Torah cannot ever be twisted.
The reason Calev’s act cannot be used as a precedent, is that NO ONE, can be compared to the supreme Kedusha of the Avot, of Avraham, Yitzchak ve’Yaakov Avinu.
We pray the Amidah 3 times a day, and we always recall the great merit of the Avot in the very first Beracha. What can be greater than that when we pray to Hashem?
This does need to be corrected very quickly, to be in line with the Torah.
7. When people need help, why doesn’t Lubavitch teach people to look inside the Torah, which is Eternal and Infinite - instead of letters written to other people by Rabbi Schneersohn tz”l during his lifetime?
Why doesn't Lubavitch choose the very greatest of all prophets, Moshe Rabbeinu?
8. Moshe Rabeinu is the greatest of all prophets, and no other prophet was equal to him.
“Zichru Torat Moshe Avdi” we are told in Malachi (3:22)
There simply is no comparison between Moshe Rabbeinu and Rabbi Schneersohn tz”l, although Rabbi Schneersohn tz”l was a Tzaddik and a very righteous and good man.
Moshe Rabbeinu was the greatest of all prophets, and we do not even pray in the name of Moshe. Neither do we pray in the name of David Hamelech, whose descendent is the Mashiach.
However, in the very first Beracha of the Amidah, the silent prayer to Hashem containing our requests, we recall the merit of the Avot: “…..Elokei Avraham, Elokei Yitzhak Velokei Yaakov….” “….The G-d of Avraham, the G-d of Yitzhak and the G-d of Yaakov…”
The beracha is concluded with “Magen Avraham”.
In summary:
(1) We pray to Hashem – at all times.
(2) There should be NO mediator between Hashem and a person’s tefillot – otherwise this is Assur.
Therefore the practice of using the “Igrot” /(“Igros”) for "requests" and "guidance" should be stopped. Similarly the practices of sending faxes to the Bet HaChaim, and praying to the tzaddik at the Bet HaChaim instead of directly to Hashem ourselves - should be stopped immediately. They are abhorrent and against the Torah.
The reason for this is that these practices use intercession. And the use of a “mediator” or someone to “intercede on a person’s behalf” to Hashem, is assur.
Teshuvah to Hashem must be done - very speedily.