Bartley Kulp wrote:
Again, I think that this is turning into a Salem witch trial. I also want to make a disclaimer that I am not a Breslover nor do I belong to that Kehilla. I am just calling it as I see it. A witch trial.
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The above comment is both rather strange and rather common. I have so far presented 3 posts regarding Breslov. 1) A citation from a Breslov website listing quotes from Rav Nachman that are readily obtained from the Breslover writings and which no self respecting Breslaver is ashamed to acknowledge. 2) An article from YNET which describes the controversy concerning Rav Yermiah Cohen's pamphlet criticizing Breslav and the Breslaver rejection of said criticism. 3) An article written by the well regarded scholar Dr. Etkes about the secret 200 year old document of Breslav concerning Moshiach which was recently given by Breslav chassidim to a Bar Ilan professor who succeeded in decoding it with the aid of Breslaver chassidim.
As far as I can see I have not presented any judgment of Breslav. I have not announced I will prove they are kofrim c.v. I haven't said, "I have in my hands a list of documents that will prove that they are secret Christians" I simply said that I want to extend the range of discussion. Most of the material is Breslav in its own publicly available words. I will also be presenting criticism of Breslav - something they have had - especially from other chasidim from the very beginning. This blog is not kindergarten nor is it a kiruv seminar that tries to white wash material for delicate souls. It is not the Yated or other publication which is trying to present the party line. It is for mature adults who want to deepen their understanding of how real Jews have and are struggling with the best way to serve G-d in the real world. I am not interested in polemics.
So why is our distinguished commentator calling this a witch trial? I have been living with this problem for many years since starting work on volume I of Daas Torah. There is a fear that if the masses (which includes most talmidei chachamim) become aware of the real thoughts and writings of the different approaches to Judaism it will cause confusion and upset. Therefore it has become dogma that all religious Jews think alike - with minor insignificant variations. I will be posting the view of the Novominsker Rebbe (head of the Agudah and a recognized world leader) who supports the common wisdom - that people shouldn't know about these things. There is also an article by Rav Schwab that we should only talk about historical events if they inspire us. That which upsets us or causes us to think critical thoughts should be suppressed. Consequently most of us are the Klausenberger's mindless fish flopping around after their heads have been cut off. This is the policy of the so-called emuna peshuta which is viewed as the ideal by many (though not by most gedolim including the Baal Shem Tov).
I was told the following in the name of Rav Hutner. There is the well known story about the bed of Sedom (also known as the Procrustean bed). If a visitor to Sedom was too short he was stretched and if he was too big for the bed his legs were cut off. Rav Hutner said, "We have such a bed in the frum world. The difference is that if someone doesn't fit his head is cut off."
If anyone is uncomfortable about being exposed to material that they were unaware of - the solution is simply to stop reading this blog. On the other hand if anyone has evidence that I am distorting or fabricating views or not presenting the material in an impartial manner - please speak up.
The following is a selection from Daas Torah I page 38 which presents my guiding philosophy.
Rav Binyamin Silber(Otzair Gedolei Yisroel): By means of the study and analysis of the range of [legitimate Orthodox] approaches it will aid—G‑d willing—in fulfilling the words of the prophet Malachi (3:16), Then the religious people will speak to each other. The prophet is commanding in G‑d’s name that in the Messianic Era that the barriers be removed between the different religious factions and their different ways of serving G‑d and consequently they will communicate fully with each other. In view of the anticipated full communication, it is not surprising that there is in this era—immediately preceding the Messianic Era—an increased problem of internal splits and divisions between religious Jews supposedly for the sake of Heaven. Even if we are only lacking in this ability to communicate [without heated disputes] that itself is indicative of divisions and factionalism. Therefore, [to aid in achieving this full communication] it is important to be aware of the variety of legitimate approaches and therefore it is good to gather them together…. Rav Yisroel Salanter said, “There is no general rule how to serve G-d properly and this rule is also not an absolute rule.” This is because the majority of distinctions and differences are a function of the place and time and thus it cannot be said one approach is “the approach”…[Therefore] In this generation—standing at the very end of exile—there is a greatly increased desire to create divisions. Consequently, we must strive to minimize the barriers to communications to fulfill the words of the prophet [Malachi (3:16), Then the religious people will speak to each other.]
הרב בנימין יהושע זילבר (הסכמה לספר אוצרות גדולי ישראל לר' משה צוריאל תש"ס): ...בתי מדרשות [הרמב"ם, מהר"ל, הגר"א, הנצי"ב ועוד] הללו של מוסר היו בשיטותיהם השונות. ע"י הלימוד והעיון בשיטות השונות יתקיים בעז"הדברי הנביא מלאכי: "אז נדברו יראי ד' איש אל רעהו" "נדברו" לשון נפעל. ציווה הנביא בשם ד' כי באחרית הימים צריך שיתעלמו המחיצות בין יראי ד' השונים עם השקפותיהם ודעותיהם השונות בעבודות ד' וממילא יתקיים "אז נדברו". לאור כל זה אין פלא מה שדוקא בתקופתנו תקופת אחרית הימים נתגבר יצר הפילוג בין יראי ד', הכל "לשם שמים" כביכול. אם חסר ה"נדברו" זה גופא הוכחה על הפירוד והפילוג. ולכן טוב שיבואו יחד כל השיטות.... מוסירם בשם הגאון ר' ישראל סלנטור צז"ל שאין כלל בעבודת ד', וכלל זה גם כן אינו כלל. כי רוב ההבדלים בשיטות קשורים עם נסיבות המקום והזמן, ואין שייך לומר על איזו שהיא דרך ושיטה "כזה ראה וקדש". ...אבל בדור הזה שאנו עומדים בסוף הגלות ממש, שיצר הפירוד מתגבר, יש להשתדל לכל הפחות למעט המחיצות, שיקוים "אז נדברו יראי ד' "
What you are saying is granted by virtue of your first an third post on Breslov.
ReplyDeleteIt was mixing it up with your second post invoking an incident that happened two years ago that I am suspecting a witch hunt. Again, any rosh kollel can pick any sort of fight with anybody that they want to. This does not mean that the world has to pay attention.
Again there was a letter signed by Rav Mordechai Eliyahu (the chief Rabbi of Safed from the dati leumi camp), Rav Bistritsky of Lubavitch and several other community leaders telling people not to get involved with this dispute. As well as other community leaders. I almost forgot to mention that Rav Keonig who is the head of the Breslov community told his followers to ignore the whole thing.
There had been no fist fights over this issue. There have been no public demonstrations or law suites. There is no fight over any community resources. Nobody is complaining that the Breslovers are taking over the city of Safed.
Looking through origional Breslov sources is legitimate. Bringing the sources that Rav Cohen has invoked is another. Bringing Ukrainian Admorim as his source that Breslov is dangerous is very ironic considering that there has been a question on the entire chassidic movement has had its legitimacy questioned. Also chassidim themselves were full of infighting. The fact that Rav Cohen envokes the memory of the Savraner Rebbe has no impact on me. He does not address any specific halachic issue that would warrent ex-communication. It is also ironic to me considering what the Kotzker said about Ukrainian Admorim. He called them "miracle workers in the land of the ignorant". This incidentally was never the Breslov way historically .
Analysis through Breslov sources is one thing. Bringing in a dispute from an otherwise unknown rav (Yirmiyahu Cohen) is another. His only claim to fame is that he picked a fight in public. Using him as a source is ridiculous. Anybody who has read the book the Bonfire of the Vanities by Zeev Wolf will understand what I am saying.
Bartley Kulp said...
ReplyDeleteWhat you are saying is granted by virtue of your first an third post on Breslov.
It was mixing it up with your second post invoking an incident that happened two years ago that I am suspecting a witch hunt. Again, any rosh kollel can pick any sort of fight with anybody that they want to. This does not mean that the world has to pay attention.
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DT replied: Your above statement is not consistent with your response cited below to my first posting on the subject which was simply as listing from a Breslav site of the statements Rav Nachman said about himself.
Bartley Kulp said...
Outside of the Nach Nachers (who by the way, unlike the Moshichists in Chabad are not considered mainstream or taken seriously within the kehilla), I have not seen any extremism in Breslov. In fact they are not monolithic in their approach nor do they generally brag that there path is the only way. They also do not try to re-write history to the exclusion of other groups and tzaddikim that I know.
They also respect talmidei chachamim and poskim who are not Breslovers. They are also not insular in so far as they learn in other Yeshivot. They do not hold that they have all of the chochma that they need in their own frameworks and institutions. They are also waiting for the same moshiach as the rest of klal Yisrael. In Israel many of their leaders are respected in both the Chassidic and Lithuanian circles and they also participate in joint issues with other rabbonim.
Trying to tie Breslov in the cult of the week posting is a futile exorcise.
Daas Torah said...
ReplyDelete"DT replied: Your above statement is not consistent with your response cited below to my first posting on the subject which was simply as listing from a Breslav site of the statements Rav Nachman said about himself."
Bartley Kulp said...
"Outside of the Nach Nachers (who by the way, unlike the Moshichists in Chabad are not considered mainstream or taken seriously within the kehilla), I have not seen any extremism in Breslov. In fact they are not monolithic in their approach nor do they generally brag that there path is the only way. They also do not try to re-write history to the exclusion of other groups and tzaddikim that I know.
They also respect talmidei chachamim and poskim who are not Breslovers. They are also not insular in so far as they learn in other Yeshivot. They do not hold that they have all of the chochma that they need in their own frameworks and institutions. They are also waiting for the same moshiach as the rest of klal Yisrael. In Israel many of their leaders are respected in both the Chassidic and Lithuanian circles and they also participate in joint issues with other rabbonim.
Trying to tie Breslov in the cult of the week posting is a futile exorcise."
There is no inconsistancy between my statements. I wrote them in order as more posts and information were pouring in.
When made the first post regarding statements that Rav Nachman made of himself I asked myself where is Daas Torah going with this?
This quote can only invoke three perceptual responses. One that he is a mad man and how can a real tzaddik brag about himself to such an extent? Moshe Rabbeinu himself did not rave about what a hot shot that he was. Another possible thought would be that he never said these things and they are falsely attributed to him. The third reaction would be he was a great tzaddik telling it like it is for the benefit of his followers and other esoteric reasons.
I figured that you wanted to start a debate on whether or not Breslov being a rapidly expanding movement possesses a healthy hashgafa. There are many issues that one might have with the Breslov derech. Every group has its differences with pros and cons that could be debated ad fin um. However by posting this particular quote, I felt that you were opening a debate on whether or not Breslov is bordering on cult status. I did not feel at the time that this was a witch hunt.
I responded accordingly that I felt that they were not. I based this on the fact that they do not behave like one. I sighted the fact that they are not insular in themselves. Not in torah learning and not with relating to the greater community. They are not intimidated by other peoples philosophies and they avidly learn torah from other peoples perspectives. In fact they do this b'shitta invoking the quote from Shlomo Hamelech " Who is wise, etc..." This is unlike another group that I know. Heck, I wish that most of the torah world was like this including MO. They also do not revise history in order to brainwash their children and followers like another group that I know.
The fact that they work hard trying to turn people on to Rav Nachman is no worse than what the early followers of the Ba'al Shem tov and the Magid were doing. Granted this in itself is a pandoras box issue.
My side of the debate is that they are not a cult.
When you brought in some argument that some Joe picked as a source, I felt that we had left the domain of intelligent debate. Anybody can pick a fight with a group. This does not add importance to the issue. I have a deceased Aunt who thought that the introduction of Maijuana was introduced into the United States by Nazi agents who wanted to corrupt American society. She also thought that rockn' roll was a communist plot sponsored by the Soviets. Everybody has a right to an opinion. My Aunt did. So does rav Cohen. However bear in mind, he is not a community leader, he is not some important Rosh yeshiva and he is certainly not a gadol hador. To bring his dispute into an intelligent debate is akin to hurling cliches as a proof. Usually you bring in intelligent and important sources however I felt that by invoking Rav Cohen along with your other posts you were running with agenda blinders on. When this happens, usually a witch hunt insues.