This is a response to Rabbi Vinas' answer to my first question. If there is interest I will reply also to his other answers. Rabbi Vinas's statement is in italics.
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In this post I will attempt to respond one more time to your questions in an attempt to clarify my positions and to educate your readers regarding the return of the anusim to Judaism and the nature of my work with my synagogue community of Lincoln Park Jewish Center in Yonkers and with the Hispanic/Latino Anusim community.
I was unable to answer your posts earlier due to the fact that my mother was niftar the day before LagLaOmer (Baomer for the rest of you) and I was in Shiva and shloshim for her. I'm surprised that my "fan club" (stalkers) who purport to know me personally, did not notify you of this fact and the fact that she was buried by a large number of Rabbanim Hashuvim who lauded her as a true tzadeket. […]
I am truly sorry to hear about your mother’s passing. And I am also sorry that you view questions regarding your public activities as an act of hostility and hate. As we see in the Talmud, understanding Torah requires making inquiries of our rabbis – even if they sometimes cause discomfort.
Berachos (62a): It has been taught: R. Akiba said: Once I went in after R. Joshua to a privy, and I learnt from him three things. I learnt that one does not sit east and west but north and south; I learnt that one evacuates not standing but sitting; and I learnt that it is proper to wipe with the left hand and not with the right. Said Ben Azzai to him: Did you dare to take such liberties with your master? He replied: It was a matter of Torah, and I required to learn. It has been taught: Ben ‘Azzai said: Once I went in after R. Akiba to a privy, and I learnt from him three things. I learnt that one does not evacuate east and west but north and south. I also learnt that one evacuates sitting and not standing. I also learnt it is proper to wipe with the left hand and not with the right. Said R. Judah to him: Did you dare to take such liberties with your master? — He replied: It was a matter of Torah, and I required to learn. R. Kahana once went in and hid under Rab's bed. He heard him chatting [with his wife] and joking and doing what he required. He said to him: One would think that Abba's mouth had never sipped the dish before! He said to him: Kahana, are you here? Go out, because it is rude.1 He replied: It is a matter of Torah, and I require to learn.
Normally, I would not be posting questions and criticisms at such a time – however you yourself have taken the initiative – with great mesiras nefesh – to bring up these issues and therefore I will respond with my respectful disagreement.
Since you say you will not be posting again, I will try to summarize the issues and express how you defend your activities and reject the criticism. I will also say at the outset – that you have in fact not really answered any of my questions – except the issue of how a ger can be a rav of a shul – something which is clearly stated in the Igros Moshe and in the teshuvos of Rav Moshe Sternbuch, shlita.
[Regarding the criticism of Jersey Girl…] Those who know me and attend my shul would know right away that there are cases of giur that I have treated as exactly that Giur not anusim. Not all Latinos who have converted either through my auspices or others are claiming that they are anusim and I don’t treat all of them as such… Let me clarify to all of you what people who do know me already know. Not all gerim are anusim this includes Latinos or Hispanic Jews. All who seek giur are not treated as anusim. Stop the lies! This is an opportunity to clarify the fact that as I have explained before based on the teshuva of Rav Aharon Soloveitchik and Rav Mordechai Eliahu that anusim require some form of halachic “return” ceremony. Soloveitchik calls it a giur lechumra Rav Moredchai Eliahu calls it a return ceremony. Both require mila, tevila and kabbalat hamitzvot. Geneology, DNA or other pseudo scientific proofs are not sufficient. I have always recommended the process of return or giur for anusim in order to ensure that their Jewish status does not remain questionable and that they are fully living lives of Jewish content and status according to Orthodox halacha. Having giur according to halacha should remove all stigma of doubt regarding their ancestry if you would just leave them alone to live life as they want according to the Torah.
Now I will respond to Daniel Eidensohns questions by the numbers that he placed on them [….] I’m going to respond however because there is a chance that you might be an authentic seeker of truth and honesty.
1) Regarding what I wrote you about safek deoraita lehumra: I was referring to the practice of discouraging a potential convert of non-Jewish origin. What if this person is really Jewish just as he claims? What if it is true that the person has a tradition in his family that remained unbroken just as he said and I discouraged him from returning to Judaism. That would be an avera risk that I am not willing to take. Rather I continue to follow the Takana of Rabbenu Gershom and the work of Rav Aboab de Fonseca and Rav Menashe Ben Israel because I did not see any expiration date on their takanot. And even if you say that their work was situational in that they were working while the problem existed during that generation directly after the inquisition, I posit to you that the problem persists and that this exchange of blogs proves that it is all too real and that controversy exists around it and therefore some form of halachic response must be offered. Since there are earlier poskim such as those I mentioned that responded already to this question when it already arose all we need to do is apply the mechanisms that the poskim already created earlier. […] The important thing is that they [anusim] remained loyal to the Torah and at great personal risk have attempted to return to Jewish practice. Anusim will continue to return to Judaism whenever they want to. We will not subject ourselves to ridiculous questions like why not sooner? The answer is that we returned as soon as we saw that what we were living was Jewish customs – as soon as it became clear to us that we needed to return to our original identity. I don’t know why it takes generations for people to return to Torah, if it was in my ability I would have done it three generations ago but I wasn’t alive then I’m alive now and now is when I have chosen to live as a Jew and to help others do so as well. The return to Judaism is heroic in any generation it proves that “la sangre llama” the blood calls.
Rabbi Vinas asserts that there are two types of non-Jews. Those that are really non-Jews and those that there is a sofek doreissa that they are truly Jews. While he is asserting that the Anusim are a sofek doreissa however he regards the existence of a pattern of family minhag which bears a possible relationship to Judaism as prima facie evidence that these people are actually Jews. Therefore he feels that they should be encouraged to rejoin the Jewish people and go through a pro forma conversion ceremony – not because they need it to be Jews – but to avoid questions and inconvenience. Thus geirus l’chumra is only window dressing because in fact the anusim are already Jews and never stopped being Jews – no matter how many hundreds of years they lived as goyim. Thus he says bluntly regarding the Anusim – and including himself and his family
“Anusim will continue to return to Judaism whenever they want to. We will not subject ourselves to ridiculous questions like why not sooner? The answer is that we returned as soon as we saw that what we were living was Jewish customs – as soon as it became clear to us that we needed to return to our original identity.”
“I am not a Christian. My mother and father were not Christians, the only religion I have ever known was Orthodox Judaism.”
Thus since the purported descendants of anusim are really Jews – including Rabbi Vinas – there is really no need to do geirus. Therefore the question raised about why he sat shiva for his mother despite the clearly stated prohibition of the Shulchan Aruch (Y.D. 374:5) is because he believes she was also a Jew – even without conversion. This also answers the questions raised concerning Rabbi Vinas’ own conversion.
The only problem with all of this is that as far as I have ascertained there is not a single posek who is on record agreeing with him! It is Rabbi Vinas – who is not a posek nor does he claim to be a posek – who has decided that the pesakim that were applied to those in the years immediately following forced conversions in Spain and Portugal when there was no doubt at all that these people had Jewish mothers and were themselves Jewish. He asserts on his own that all those who have unique family minhagim which might be Jewish - qualifies them for the same status of truly being Jewish! He states:
“The answer is that we returned as soon as we saw that what we were living was Jewish customs – as soon as it became clear to us that we needed to return to our original identity. I don’t know why it takes generations for people to return to Torah, if it was in my ability I would have done it three generations ago but I wasn’t alive then I’m alive now and now is when I have chosen to live as a Jew and to help others do so as well. The return to Judaism is heroic in any generation it proves that “la sangre llama” the blood calls.”
Thus regarding the first question – the answer is that Rabbi Vinas is relying on his own sevora which apparently no posek accepts. I would love to hear a major posek such as Rav Ovadiah Yosef or Rav Ben Tzion Abba Shaul state this sevora and then I would have no trouble acknowledging that is is legitimate. The letters that were written by Rav Aaron Soloveitchik and Rav Mordechai Eliyahu – did not state such a position. It also explains why Rabbi Vinas insists he is not proselytizing – he views himself as only doing kiruv!
Let me reiterate that I think that Rabbi Vinas is a wonderful human being who has dedicated his life to helping others with great mesiras nefesh. I am truly sorry about the loss of his mother. The issues I am raising are purely halachic issues - which are critical to being a Torah Jew. These are the type of questions that every observant Jew needs to raise to clarify the halacha. The issue of following halacha even if it hurts - something raised many times already - will be addressed in a separate posting.
i don't see what's so confusing here — R' Viñas said that his return procedure for anusím fulfills all the requirements of a normal halakhic giyur; and that when someone has a strong tradition of Jewish matrilineal descent, you should consider it a ספק. i assume that means that since they might be Jewish, the rules against ריבית would apply to them; and you couldn't feed them non-kosher food, etc, but also wouldn't rely on them to make kiddush for you, for instance. makes sense to me.
ReplyDeleteIn response to this post, I too have decided no longer to post here.
ReplyDeleteRav Eidensohn writes: "As we see in the Talmud, understanding Torah requires making inquiries of our rabbis – even if they sometimes cause discomfort."
When necessary and true, and when there is no alternative, of course. But when "inquiries" are made because of preconceived notions of "Daas Torah" (a non-Jewish idea itself) with no regard whatsoever to the harm they cause, that is using the quest for truth as a lame excuse for bashing ideological rivals.
Given the current conversion controversy, you are in good company Rabbi Vinas. Take it as a badge of pride. You have been publically reviled along with the greatest dati-leumi Torah scholars in Israel.
Many poskim, of whom I have no doubt Rav Eidensohn is fully aware, recognize the concept of "zera yisrael". The concept is accepted halachah le-maaseh today among most Torah scholars and dayanim today (at least outside the Ashkenazic charedi world).
Rabbi Eidensohn and his rebbe are free to reject or accept this concept according to their Torah understanding, but not to bash those who do accept it. No Rav Eidensohn, you cannot claim that the burden of proof is on those who do accept it, who may then be reviled and shamed in public as you have done here to Rabbi Vidas.
"Daas Torah" is no mandate for doing evil, though many of its proponents see it as exactly such.
Along with Rabbi Vinas, my participation at this blog is has now ended.
Dear Itamar,
ReplyDeleteI have been trying to research the halachic concept of "zera Yisrael" since it was first mentioned on this blog a while back.
So far I have not been able to find mention of this halachic concept other than in the responsum of Rav Uziel.
Rav Uziel's opinion on this issue was ultimately rejected by the majority of Poskim in favor of Poskim like the Beis Yitzchok and R Chaim Ozer.
Rav Uziel’s responsa have been in the public domain for many decades, pored over by many people.
Halachic process is primarily a group process. When a large majority of Poskim sees an argument one way, they will trump a single (even) greater scholar.
Rav Uziel asserts, those who initially are unwilling to accept the yoke of mitzvos will ultimately do so after conversion.
If anything, in the decades since he penned his responsum, we have had time to observe the conduct of thousands of candidates, and to empirically determine whether converts according to more liberal protocols move towards greater observance or not.
Rav Uziel’s conjecture has not been borne out over time and therefore has been rejected by the majority of Poskim.
If you are aware of other sources for the halachic concept of Zera Yisrael, I would be grateful to you if you could please guide me.
I think that everyone who logs into this blog does so in order to learn. If you have knowledge that others are seeking, it would be very kind of you to share it.
Knowledge is the basis of understanding, so please do continue to help others (like me) to understand.
Thanks again for what I am sure is a very time consuming effort on your part to contribute to this blog.
You should know that I, for one am very grateful for and feel that I have learned a great deal from your contributions.
I have a relative who was from a family of annusim in Barcelona. The local rabbi at the time consulkted with R. Ovadiah Yosef who paskened that they need giur lechumra. That meant a complete halachic giyur
ReplyDeleteincluding a brit milah for the 15 year old son without the attempts to dissuade them not to be Jewish.
One question that came up years later was about the ketuva. Depending on which rabbanut in Israel some put the giyur into the ketuva while some did not
BTW I very recently spent several months in Madrid. The local rabbi told me that they have very few cases of annusim returning to the community
I think steg's comment does not apply to Rabbi Vinas. The interview that was posted yesterday said his parents and family all considered themselves Christians, just with some uncommon family customs. The concept of being Jewish first began in the 1970s when his father went into a synagogue for the first time. There was not a strong tradition of matrilineal descent in this case.
ReplyDeleteI have a question for Itamar Ross:
ReplyDeleteFirst of all, I agree with Rabbi Eidensohn's and Jersey Girl's pleas for you to remain.
We only learn from each other by sharing our ideas and our knowledge.
My question is this: I know a man who was married to a Jewish woman for 20 years, and then impregnated his gentile secretary unexpectedly. He divorced his wife 6 months later and married the gentile in a civil ceremony a month after that.
A daughter was born from this union shortly after they were married.
How does the concept of "Zera Yisrael" apply to this child if she says she wants to convert? Should the child be allowed to convert because she has a Jewish father? Or should she be banned from converting so as to not condone intermarriage?
This is a serious question and I truly interested in your thoughts on the matter.
Do you mean the secretary was a descendend of anusim?
ReplyDeleteBecause the father has nothing to do with it.
I think it is nice that those two opinions exists.
ReplyDeleteIf a descendend of Anussim does not want to keep Torah and Mitzwot, he can rely on Rav Eidensohn's opinion saying that he has no obligation whatsoever to do so.
On the other hand, I think that this opinion should not be used to look down on Anussim who want to be Mekabel Ol Torah u Mitzwot, and you should treat them with tact and help them.
It all depends on how things are presented.
And yes, remarks saying "Oh, you are not even jewish" can be very hurtful for someone who is just completely changing his lifestyle in order to return to the religion of his ancestors.
On the other hand, if you say: "Look, you have no obligation, it's all your choice, until you confirm it in a Giur/Giur le Chumra", it sounds completely different.
As far as discouraging is concerned: I also think that someon who has a claim that he is of matrilinear jewish descend should not be discouraged of becoming jewish. But don't you worry. People's lack of tact and sensitivity will be discouraging enough.
shoshi said...
ReplyDeleteI think it is nice that those two opinions exists.
If a descendend of Anussim does not want to keep Torah and Mitzwot, he can rely on Rav Eidensohn's opinion saying that he has no obligation whatsoever to do so.
On the other hand, I think that this opinion should not be used to look down on Anussim who want to be Mekabel Ol Torah u Mitzwot, and you should treat them with tact and help them.
It all depends on how things are presented.
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You should be aware how your charges of insensitivy on the part of the halachic system & rabbinical authority - when they don't agree to accept your non-halachic viewpoint - appears to the majority of observant halachicly educated Jews. Finding some rabbi who is not recognized by his peers as a signifcant authority in halacha who agrees with your views - does not justify challenging and rejecting the overwhelming halachic understanding which rejects the validity of what he says.
Telling a person who thinks he is Jewish when he has no halachic basis for that assertion - is a distortion of halacha and prohibited. If he says I think I am Jewish - am I? Of course he needs to be treated with sensitivity. If he says I am sure I am Jewish and I don't care what the halacha says because it is wrong - the appropriateness of gentle tolerance obviously changes.
An outsider to any system - halacha, law medicine etc - who comes without any knowledge or competence in the area and criticizes and challenges the competence and integrity of the system and its authorities - is usually rejected.
Don't you think it is a tad arrogant on your part dictating that the rabbis need to accept the validity of a non-Jews claim and insist that they tell the guy that he has the option of being Jewish even though this is against the halacha?
out of curiosity....doesnt anyone have faith in the fact that this redemption will be tremendous and that HaShem will return all the sparks that have been lost? thats what bothers me the most about all this. a terrible thing you dont see how great HaShem is. maybe we just dont understand how HaShem is working. if you have all the answers...then be Moshiach and return us to our King cause its torture living like this. realize that we are scattered all over the place and we need HaShem to deliver us. instead of saying we aren't jewish...pray to HaShem to return all that are and be sensitive to us and those trying to help us. its nice and easy with papers saying youre a jew...all doors are open. you have no clue what this is like. i pray HaShem helps you cause at the end of it all, its not paper that makes us jewish, but the neshama that is not bound by the limitations of this world. aren't we supposed to be as numerous as the stars??...the people in this situation are such a small number...people act like every person in the world is saying this. why don't we look at commitment to Torah. regardless of barrier, we are here.
ReplyDelete