I don't think that Rabbi Eidensohn was endorsing the source that posted a copy of the document issued by the Supreme Rabbinical Court, only providing it as a service to those of us who might not otherwise have access to it.
Christian missionaries when presented with a document that they cannot refute will often instead argue about the qualifications of the SOURCE of the document. Who posted the copy of Rav Sherman's Psak halacha is completely irrelevant, it is the content that we are trying to pay attention to.
Jersey Girl of May 6, 2008 1:52 AM: "Christian missionaries when presented with a document that they cannot refute will often instead argue about the qualifications of the SOURCE of the document."
Cut it out Jersey Girl, if I am like a "Christian missionary" then you may be a secret Nazi for holding to a Nazi Aryan-like Apartheid Takana, and neither of us is any of those things chas vesholom so cut out not just your poor logic but your pathetic attemtps at smearing a debater you disagree with on a mere Blog, for heaven's sake!
RaP -- I think you are missing jerseygirl's point.
I'll try to explain.
Never before in history has there been such a rush to convert to Judaism, and this rush coincides with Halachic lapses from a huge amount of certain types of Rabbis.
The types of Rabbis I refer to are those who have been in direct or indirect contact with major Kiruv organizations who have in turn been widely assaulted and infiltrated by missionary organizations. This is not paranoia, but is well documented.
Slowly but surely Christian ways of looking at religion, responsibility, and law have been adopted by many Jewish people without their even realizing it.
Rabbi Tropper of EJF has been unable to produce the examples of Halachic precedent that Rabbi Eidensohn has consistently requested. The reason why is because it does not exist.
It is not unfair to ask "what has changed" in the last 50 years that was absent from Jewish law and practice for the previous 2000. Surely technology hasn't caused it, so it must be something 'social.'
I don't think jerseygirl or anyone else would accuse you, or Rabbi Drukman, of being Christian missionaries. But is it possible that you have been unwittingly affected by their worldview? The Christian way declares that religion is in the heart rather than in deeds. Yet, Judaism is a religion of action AND intent. Our religion while very intellectual, is also very phsyical. We inherit our Jewishness, or we can adopt it by physically performing the Mitzvot.
Where does the idea come from that a person can convert to Judaism without performing the Mitzvot?
It comes from Christianity. Before you berate me for saying that, quote ONE Jewish source that says a convert who does not keep the Mitzvot (and therefore did not intend to) is still a convert. Just ONE. You are a well read person, so I'm sure you can find it.
Back to my earlier statement that never before in history has there been such a rush to convert to Judaism....don't you wonder why?
If you remove those who are doing so to correct an intermarriage, who do you think is left? Muslims? Hindus? Shinto? Hare Krishnas? No. 100% of them are Christian. Why would you suppose that is?
A quick answer might be that a truth seeker will always find the true religion. But since 2/3 of the world is NOT Christian, you would expect 2/3 of the truth-seekers who convert to Judaism to be from religions other than Christianity.
Christianity has a vested interest in Christianizing Jewish Orthodoxy. There are many reasons for this which I will not go into in this post for the sake of brevity.
Bright Eyes states: RaP -- I think you are missing jerseygirl's point. I'll try to explain.
Response: She can speak for herself unless you are the same posters.
Bright Eyes states: Never before in history has there been such a rush to convert to Judaism, and this rush coincides with Halachic lapses from a huge amount of certain types of Rabbis.
Response: You are seeing something significant but you are not interpreting it correctly. The reason you are seeing all these moves about conversion is because never before in history have there been so many Jews and non-Halachic Jews squeezed into the borders of the land of Israel since the destruction of the Second Temple 2000 years ago. When the Jews were spread out over Europe and Asia a crisis in one end did not shake the other end. Not so in Israel today because everyone has to deal with everyone else's problems because everyone lives on top of everyone else's head. Therefore if a million Russians make Aliyah and it is known that at least a quarter of them are not Halachic Jews then it effects not just those Russians in Israel, or the Israeli governmental and religious authorities who have responsibility for them but also the Charedim and Chasidim and all Torah observant Jews in the town or neighborhood next door and that in turn brings their rabbis, not normally concerned with the fate of assimilated Rusian Jews into action, as we see happening in Israel now. And that is why in America the alarm bells are not ringing as loud even though the Halachic mess is even greater with Reform and Consevatism and marriage to gentiles causing even more harm to Jewry, but because everyone is spread out over greater distances, even the NY metro area is vast, that the need for a call for eaction and an outcry is not heard from the Charedi rabbis in America who are no less vigilant and concerned than their compatriots in Israel.
Bright Eyes states: The types of Rabbis I refer to are those who have been in direct or indirect contact with major Kiruv organizations who have in turn been widely assaulted and infiltrated by missionary organizations. This is not paranoia, but is well documented.
Response; Sorry, but this is total paranoia. Do you mean to say that Aish HaTorah, Ohr Somayach, Lubavitch, Arachim, Shofar, Lev Le'Achim, Yad Le'achim and many more are now off the radar because they are being secretly poisoned and perhaps even run by "missionaries"? I am sure they would be highly insulted, and all it shows is that you have no respect for Torah-true kiruv organizations and that your goal, related to the goal of imposing a Syrian like takana on all of Klal Yisroel, is to also shut down and close up all Kiruv operations. Nice pipe dream. not only are you being paranoid, but I need to ask what are you smoking because it sounds like you are hallucinating (to be nice) and just out with a hatchet to slander and destroy the amazing Kiruv organizations, who while I know full well are not perfect, are doing amazing things to bring secular Jews back to Torah observance, and in fact the Batei Din and people screaming at the geirus and assimilation situation should actually ask for help from Kiruv workers to see how you can truly successfuly mekarev people and bring about a rapprochement between secular and religious Jews and not keep pushing Klal Yisroel to the brink and see how far you can go before people will get really annoyed and who knows what explosion could happen.
Bright Eyes states: Slowly but surely Christian ways of looking at religion, responsibility, and law have been adopted by many Jewish people without their even realizing it.
Response: Laadeedeedaa, now it is you that is pontificating and sounding Chrsitain. You are prattling as if you were a Chasidish fourth grade teacher telling all the little innocent kinderlach to watch out for the goyishe velt and not to be influenced by the goyim. Stop infantalizing your audience and assume that people know this stuff and wish that you would say something grown-up for a change.
Bright Eyes states: Rabbi Tropper of EJF has been unable to produce the examples of Halachic precedent that Rabbi Eidensohn has consistently requested. The reason why is because it does not exist.
Response: Who cares about Rabbi Tropper, Tom Kaplan and EJF it was just a racket so that Rabbi Tropper could get money to pay his bills and help him coast along further on his 30 year egomaniacal power-ride. So he was never a real factor in the broader discussion and Rabbi Tropper is not a rabbi in Israel like Rabbi Druckman and Rabbi Lichtenstein and Rabbi Amar who are major rabbinic and Halachic figures to many people in Israel with representation on many major Batei Din there.
Bright Eyes states: It is not unfair to ask "what has changed" in the last 50 years that was absent from Jewish law and practice for the previous 2000. Surely technology hasn't caused it, so it must be something 'social.'
Response; As I told you, what has changed is the arrival of the state of Israel in 1948 and the fact that sixty years later in 2008 about half the world's known Halachic Jews live there. Israel is now basically the center of the Jewish world in ALL ways whereas prior to 1948, for the last 2000 years, it was only a spiritual and religious concept in the prayers and hopes of Jews who yearned to return there. So yes, the arrival of modern Zionism about 120 years ago is what changed, and all of Zionism is NOT against Halachah but that is now going to become a whole new aspect of this elongated public debate in Israel and as a topic of discussion as we already see it unfolding.
Bright Eyes states: I don't think jerseygirl or anyone else would accuse you, or Rabbi Drukman, of being Christian missionaries. But is it possible that you have been unwittingly affected by their worldview? The Christian way declares that religion is in the heart rather than in deeds. Yet, Judaism is a religion of action AND intent. Our religion while very intellectual, is also very phsyical. We inherit our Jewishness, or we can adopt it by physically performing the Mitzvot.
Response: There is so much self-righteous innuendo in what you say here that I really should say nothing to you. But suffice it to say that I know full well what you are saying but you are again seeing something but you are interpreting it incorrectly. You seem to think that it is "Christian" to have rachmonus on people. You seem to think that it is "Christian" to be rational. You also seem to think that anyone who does not see the world like you do must also somehow have been tainted by Christianity (all the points is that YOU make are what Christiana actually think about the rest of the world so that it is you that comes off looking like and acting like a Christian most of all with your intolerance, unwillingness to be rational and denial of humanity) and which only shows that you have a very shallow capacity for perceiving and understanding human nature and the interplay of that with Halacha because Halacha is for people not for robots and Halacha is expressed by people, because if H-shem wanted the Shulchan Aruch and Halacha to be like the Torah he would have produced the Torah as such, Halaacha is perhaps the highest expression of the human mind and spirit because it shows how humans, meaning the Jewish sages, can partner with G-d to produce Jewish law which is in harmony, and not here to deny or negate natural law or the laws of nature. Torah She'Beal Peh, the Oral Torah is not of the same nature as the Written Torah although it is just as G-dly and Holy. If this is too deep for you and if you think this is "Christian" and that Judaism is just a religion of "dos and donts" then sorry to tell you but it is you that has been influenced and infected by Christian thinking and infantalized attitudes.
Bright Eyes states: Where does the idea come from that a person can convert to Judaism without performing the Mitzvot?
Response: There is no such idea in Halacha. But it does predate Halacha, because how else did Avraham and Sarah become the first Jews? But that is a deeper and longer discussion. Suffice it to say that yes, after the giving of the Torah at Har Sinai 3,300 years ago anyone wishing to join the Jewish people must prove that they wish to keep the mitzvot, but to what degree and how much and by whom is not made clear and that is where and why the variances of possibilies start to creep in. So to sum up, personally I am not arguing with you on this point, but I fear that you are working with, and trying to impose your own too shallow view of this matter on the rest of the world and it won't work for that reason.
Bright Eyes states: It comes from Christianity. Before you berate me for saying that, quote ONE Jewish source that says a convert who does not keep the Mitzvot (and therefore did not intend to) is still a convert. Just ONE. You are a well read person, so I'm sure you can find it.
Response: I agree with you on this point so I don't have to prove to you what we both agree upon. But I must point out that you are now creating Straw Man Arguments (if you know what that means) and "arguing" with yourself and then coming to "conclusions" that are off the mark here because no ORTHODOX rabbi would say otherwise.
Bright Eyes states: Back to my earlier statement that never before in history has there been such a rush to convert to Judaism....don't you wonder why?
Response: I already told you why, and I am not wondering. If you were mature enough I would give you a few more very good reasons why this is ahepping now and today but you are prone to the very thing you accused me of "preaching" and "dangerous" conclusions so I will hold off for now, maybe Rabbi Eidensohn will show a little more broad mindedness and we can talk about all the aspeects of this crisis and not just the sources and citations he brings to suit himself.
Bright Eyes states: If you remove those who are doing so to correct an intermarriage, who do you think is left? Muslims? Hindus? Shinto? Hare Krishnas? No. 100% of them are Christian. Why would you suppose that is?
Response: You are boring me with this. Get to the point already.
Bright Eyes states: A quick answer might be that a truth seeker will always find the true religion. But since 2/3 of the world is NOT Christian, you would expect 2/3 of the truth-seekers who convert to Judaism to be from religions other than Christianity.
Response: More boring empty nothings from you.
Bright Eyes states: Christianity has a vested interest in Christianizing Jewish Orthodoxy. There are many reasons for this which I will not go into in this post for the sake of brevity.
Response: And this you call a "punch-line" -- you have finally discovered the "bad guys" and its the Christians? Whoopie-doo! So there is now a"Passover-Plot-in-Reverse" with Christians metaphorically planning and executing the poisoning the minds and hearst of all the nice little Yeshiva bochurs and Bais Yaakov meidalach and the Chasidishe kids in Boro Park, Monsey and Willimsburg -- I mean gimme a break. I know you say you deal with missionaries but really now, they are a bunch of Yotzes and you are suffering from a syndrome it seems that you need to preach even to people who are not involved with fighting missionaries the same way you would try to convince someone to stop following the missionaries. Remember, missionaries deal with ignoramuses and to be blunt, idiots, and sometimes if that is who you are exposed for too long, it may be rubbing off on you, so get with the beat and put all those Christain paranoias to rest. The issue of Zionism is more relevant, but Christianity is a has been challenge for CHAREDI Jews.
RaP: "She can speak for herself unless you are the same posters."
"She" doesn't like being called a Nazi because she believes that the Jewish people should govern themselves by halacha and not according to Western European Christian ideals.
No, "Jersey Girl" and "Bright Eyes" are not the same poster. You could probably tell that from my writing style which I have been told is quite distinct from that of most Americans.
RaP- "Christians metaphorically planning and executing the poisoning the minds and hearts of all the nice little Yeshiva bochurs and Bais Yaakov meidalach and the Chasidishe kids in Boro Park, Monsey and Willimsburg --"
Why is this hard to believe?
Christians spend by their own admission more than a billion dollars a year missionizing Jews. That is about equal to the amount spent by all Orthodox day schools in the US.
I realize I come off as paranoid when it comes to Christian Missionaries. Here are some reasons why:
In my part time volunteer work over the past 14 years I have discovered Christian missionaries working in the following positions:
Math and science teachers in a Bais Yaakov. (the first clue is when a person with a Doctorate or MS is willing to work for 20k per year as a teacher in a school that doesn't regularly make the payroll).
Secular studies principal in a mesivta. (Again way over qualified for the job).
One Sephardic synagogue hired 3 different missionaries to be Rabbi in a ten year time period. One of them attended Ohr Samayeach and was also head of Arachim in the US. He also went on to become principal of a Jewish Day school in Los Angeles.
A background check revealed visa sponsorship by a Protestant Church. The reason the background check was done later rather than sooner was because the President of the synagogue turned out to be a Jew for Jesus. His picture was in the newspaper in one of their rallies).
He was also President of Sephardic Federation.
There are two synagogues in CA whose Rabbis' charities are registered to Protestant churches (this is not a mistake, it was verified). One of these has sons who are also Rabbis.
Middle class wives of church leaders who take jobs as domestics in Jewish homes. We've had quite a few of those.
Social workers for Jewish agencies and in nursing homes.
Janitors in synagogues who hang out with the "kids at risk" Shabbos morning and missionize them.
I had two ministers who hung out in front of one Young Israel and another Sephardic synagogue on Shabbos morning who would just schmooze with the kids who were not inside with their parents.
Every Shabbos morning in many Jewish neighborhoods groups of missionaries go visiting. They know which houses will have children home with maids. The missionaries are invited in and they entertain the children with songs, candy and toys.
There is also Christian who managed to become an Orthodox "Rabbi" who supervises a "chalav Yisrael" dairy in the US.
And the MOST chutzpahdik of all is a missionary "Rabbi" in a Messianic congregation who volunteers with Jews for Judaism allegedly chasing missionaries.
There is more and more, but I'm sure you get the gist.
From all the cases you cite it sounds like the main problem is with the naivete of the people who hired them and that the balebatim and committees responsible were not in touch with others such as Torah Umesorah or with serious, seasoned and experienced colleagues who could have guided them.
Sorry, but from all the cases you cite it sounds like they are mostly cases of "you get what you pay for" and that the problem really lies NOT with the missionaries but with the almost certain Jewish LAY LEADERS who are nine times out of ten pure jerks who think they know better than the rest of the world (or reliable rabbis and mechanchim) so they got sold lemons and the the communities suffered. Very sad.
To be honest I have lived in a few Ashkenazi Orthodox and Charedi communities all my life and my learning and working life has been almost only among Orthodox and Charedi rabbis, schools, yeshivas and institutions, and NEVER have I heard of or come across any instance of anything like the cases you mention here, so maybe you need to move away from where you live to a stronger Torah community, I highly recommend it for someone so concerned about Halachah.
One final point, Sefardim are NOT used to living in a Christian society so it it more logical that they, meaning their schools, synagogues, institutions and communties would be more vulnerable to missionaries tricks and their sneaky attacks. Secular and assimilated Ashkenazim become vulnerable when they empty out of Jewish knowledge, but with Sefardim who even claim to stick to Orthodoxy and Halacha they often misread and misuderstand the subtle cultural cues and signals that they should be seeing to warn them that there is a Christian missionary or overly zealous Christian true believer who may not even be a missionary in their midst.
This makes sense because Ashkenazim have lived under Christian domination and have had to learn to deal with their Christian "overlords" and rulers and governements since the dawn of Christianity, but Sefardim have no group memory, unspoken awareness or inherent consciouness of that because essentially they have lived under the power and influence of the Mohammadans and Islam which is quite a different kettle of fish to Westen Christianity. By the way, similarly, people of Western European origin would not be oriented and savvy enough to know how to set up a school system or a social system in short order were they to be transposed suddenly to some far off Middle Easterm locale, and they would certainly be culturally dumb and numb to pick a subtle cultural and underhanded religious assault were it to be launched against them by Moslem or Islamic clerics out to convert Jews to Islam.
Islam like Judaism considers coerced conversions null and void.
You are correct in saying:
"One final point, Sefardim are NOT used to living in a Christian society so it it more logical that they, meaning their schools, synagogues, institutions and communties would be more vulnerable to missionaries tricks and their sneaky attacks. Secular and assimilated Ashkenazim become vulnerable when they empty out of Jewish knowledge, but with Sefardim who even claim to stick to Orthodoxy and Halacha they often misread and misuderstand the subtle cultural cues and signals that they should be seeing to warn them that there is a Christian missionary or overly zealous Christian true believer who may not even be a missionary in their midst."
Christian missionaries do tend to target Sephardim more aggressively than Ashkenazim for this reason.
However, Orthodox Ashkenazim are hardly immune to Christian missionaries.
Several months ago, my cousin's (married to a Chasid) husband came home from a Beis Midrash in Boro Park with some literature in Yiddish that looked like a very nice Parsha sheet.
The children were reading it at the kitchen table when Zaide came in, looked at it and went hysterical.
It was Christianity, cloaked in Parsha lavishly produced by Jews for Jesus. The children were soaking it up, completely unaware that it was not Jewish because they are so accustomed to the false insecurity that anything in Yiddish is for them.
My cousins tell me Jews for Jesus has lots of Yiddish speaking missionaries working Boro Park.
RaP says " To be honest I have lived in a few Ashkenazi Orthodox and Charedi communities all my life and my learning and working life has been almost only among Orthodox and Charedi rabbis, schools, yeshivas and institutions, and NEVER have I heard of or come across any instance of anything like the cases you mention here,"
You could be living with many of the same problems and just not realize it.
You are correct that Sephardim in general are too trusting and gullible. Ashkenazim get fooled by the clothing, appearance, and use of Yiddishisms.
The super-frum are somewhat more susceptible than most because they are overconfident of their communal immunity.
Well, the latest news of 09-16-08 reported on VIN is that Ashekneazi and Sephardi rabbis are at loggerheads over appointments and patronage, with Rav Eliashic opposing Rav Ovadia Yosef. it's amighty rabbinical brawl indeed, and the questions about conversions areen't even on the table, see the article:
"Ashkenazim, Sephardim Fight over Chief Rabbinate Appointments
Jerusalem - A dispute between Sephardi and Ashkenazi rabbis over the appointment of Shas mentor Rabbi Ovadia Yosef’s son has prevented the two camps from joining forces to take control of the Chief Rabbinate’s governing council.
Next Tuesday, a voting body of 150 rabbis and public servants will convene to vote for the Chief Rabbinate’s governing council (moetzet harabanut harashit), the final authority on issues such as criteria for kosher supervision, deciding who is a Jew for the purpose of marriage and the appointment of new rabbis and marriage registrars.
One of the issues waiting to be decided by the governing council is whether or not to allow rabbis who already receive a salary from the state to enjoy additional sources of income from conducting weddings, giving lectures or providing kashrut supervision.
If they were to cooperate, Shas, which represents Sephardi haredi Jewry, and the two Ashkenazi haredi parties, Degel Hatorah and Agudath Yisrael, would enjoy a majority in the 150-person voting body.
However, Degel Hatorah and Agudath Yisrael refuse to form a united voting bloc with Shas in protest against Shas’s candidate Rabbi Avraham Yosef, the chief rabbi of Ashdod and the son of Rabbi Ovadia Yosef.
Rabbi Yosef Shalom Elyashiv, the supreme halachic authority for Ashkenazi haredim, ordered his representatives to oppose the appointment of Avraham Yosef.
“Rabbi Elyashiv told us that he would support any other of Rabbi Ovadia’s sons, just not Avraham,” said a source in the rabbinate close to Rabbi Elyashiv.
Elyashiv’s opposition to Rabbi Avraham Yosef is primarily due to his position on laws governing the Sabbatical (shmita) year.
Rabbi Avraham Yosef personally oversaw implementation of a controversial halachic ruling called “heter mechira.”
According to heter mechira, land in Israel is sold to non-Jews for the duration of the shmita year, thus enabling Jewish farmers to continue to work the land as usual.
Rabbi Elyashiv and rabbis associated with him adamantly opposed heter mechira.
Meanwhile, Rabbi Ovadia Yosef is resolute in his demand that Shas affiliates within the Chief Rabbinate support the appointment of his son.
With Sephardim and Ashkenazim at loggerheads over Yosef’s appointment, religious Zionists, who make up the third camp within the chief rabbinate, are hoping to get three of their candidates elected.
Chief Rabbi of Shoham David Stav, who is also spokesman for the Hesder Yeshivot and a senior member of Tzohar Rabbis, is one of three candidates representing religious Zionists.
The chief rabbi of Kiryat Shmona, Tzfania Drori, and the chief rabbi of Safed, Shmuel Eliyahu, are also running.
In addition to Avraham Yosef, Shas is also supporting former Shas MK Rabbi Yitzhak Peretz, and Rabbi Shimon Ben-Shimon.
Elyashiv’s camp is supporting Rabbi Moshe Rauchverger, a neighborhood rabbi in the Haifa area and head of the Association of Neighborhood Rabbis, the chief rabbi of Migdal Haemek, Yitzhak David Grossman, known as the “disco rabbi” for his outreach work with youth at pubs and discos, and Chief Rabbi of Rehovot Simcha Cohen Kook.
A total of 10 rabbis - five Ashkenazi and five Sephardi - will be chosen to sit on the chief rabbinate’s governing council for a five-year term. In addition to the 10 elected rabbis, there are also five additional rabbis who are members of the council. These include the two chief rabbis Shlomo Amar and Yonah Metzger, and the chief rabbis of the nation’s largest cities Rabbi Israel Meir Lau (Tel Aviv), Rabbi Shlomo Chelouche (Haifa) and Rabbi Yehuda Deri (Beersheba). Jerusalem does not have a chief rabbi.
Half of the 150-person voting body that will choose the 10 rabbis is made up public officials: the mayors of the nation’s 25 largest cities, heads of the six largest local councils, the heads of the four largest regional councils, the heads of the 14 largest religious councils and the heads of the religious councils belonging to the four largest local councils.
The other half of the voting body is made up of the chief rabbis of the the largest cities, local and regional councils and moshavim.
The size of local and regional councils and cities is determined by the size of the Jewish population.
In addition, two government ministers, five MKs and 10 public officials appointed by Religious Affairs Minister Yitzhak Cohen (Shas) also make up the voting body.
"FailedMessiah" what a joke! Keshmo ken hu!
ReplyDeleteLet's start a web site called "Failed Bedatz"
ReplyDeleteI don't think that Rabbi Eidensohn was endorsing the source that posted a copy of the document issued by the Supreme Rabbinical Court, only providing it as a service to those of us who might not otherwise have access to it.
ReplyDeleteChristian missionaries when presented with a document that they cannot refute will often instead argue about the qualifications of the SOURCE of the document.
Who posted the copy of Rav Sherman's Psak halacha is completely irrelevant, it is the content that we are trying to pay attention to.
Thank you again for the link.
Any chance we can get a rough English translation of this?
ReplyDeleteJersey Girl of May 6, 2008 1:52 AM: "Christian missionaries when presented with a document that they cannot refute will often instead argue about the qualifications of the SOURCE of the document."
ReplyDeleteCut it out Jersey Girl, if I am like a "Christian missionary" then you may be a secret Nazi for holding to a Nazi Aryan-like Apartheid Takana, and neither of us is any of those things chas vesholom so cut out not just your poor logic but your pathetic attemtps at smearing a debater you disagree with on a mere Blog, for heaven's sake!
RaP -- I think you are missing jerseygirl's point.
ReplyDeleteI'll try to explain.
Never before in history has there been such a rush to convert to Judaism, and this rush coincides with Halachic lapses from a huge amount of certain types of Rabbis.
The types of Rabbis I refer to are those who have been in direct or indirect contact with major Kiruv organizations who have in turn been widely assaulted and infiltrated by missionary organizations. This is not paranoia, but is well documented.
Slowly but surely Christian ways of looking at religion, responsibility, and law have been adopted by many Jewish people without their even realizing it.
Rabbi Tropper of EJF has been unable to produce the examples of Halachic precedent that Rabbi Eidensohn has consistently requested. The reason why is because it does not exist.
It is not unfair to ask "what has changed" in the last 50 years that was absent from Jewish law and practice for the previous 2000. Surely technology hasn't caused it, so it must be something 'social.'
I don't think jerseygirl or anyone else would accuse you, or Rabbi Drukman, of being Christian missionaries. But is it possible that you have been unwittingly affected by their worldview? The Christian way declares that religion is in the heart rather than in deeds. Yet, Judaism is a religion of action AND intent. Our religion while very intellectual, is also very phsyical. We inherit our Jewishness, or we can adopt it by physically performing the Mitzvot.
Where does the idea come from that a person can convert to Judaism without performing the Mitzvot?
It comes from Christianity. Before you berate me for saying that, quote ONE Jewish source that says a convert who does not keep the Mitzvot (and therefore did not intend to) is still a convert. Just ONE. You are a well read person, so I'm sure you can find it.
Back to my earlier statement that never before in history has there been such a rush to convert to Judaism....don't you wonder why?
If you remove those who are doing so to correct an intermarriage, who do you think is left? Muslims? Hindus? Shinto? Hare Krishnas? No. 100% of them are Christian. Why would you suppose that is?
A quick answer might be that a truth seeker will always find the true religion. But since 2/3 of the world is NOT Christian, you would expect 2/3 of the truth-seekers who convert to Judaism to be from religions other than Christianity.
Christianity has a vested interest in Christianizing Jewish Orthodoxy. There are many reasons for this which I will not go into in this post for the sake of brevity.
To Bright Eyes of May 6, 2008 6:57 PM:
ReplyDeleteBright Eyes states: RaP -- I think you are missing jerseygirl's point. I'll try to explain.
Response: She can speak for herself unless you are the same posters.
Bright Eyes states: Never before in history has there been such a rush to convert to Judaism, and this rush coincides with Halachic lapses from a huge amount of certain types of Rabbis.
Response: You are seeing something significant but you are not interpreting it correctly. The reason you are seeing all these moves about conversion is because never before in history have there been so many Jews and non-Halachic Jews squeezed into the borders of the land of Israel since the destruction of the Second Temple 2000 years ago. When the Jews were spread out over Europe and Asia a crisis in one end did not shake the other end. Not so in Israel today because everyone has to deal with everyone else's problems because everyone lives on top of everyone else's head. Therefore if a million Russians make Aliyah and it is known that at least a quarter of them are not Halachic Jews then it effects not just those Russians in Israel, or the Israeli governmental and religious authorities who have responsibility for them but also the Charedim and Chasidim and all Torah observant Jews in the town or neighborhood next door and that in turn brings their rabbis, not normally concerned with the fate of assimilated Rusian Jews into action, as we see happening in Israel now. And that is why in America the alarm bells are not ringing as loud even though the Halachic mess is even greater with Reform and Consevatism and marriage to gentiles causing even more harm to Jewry, but because everyone is spread out over greater distances, even the NY metro area is vast, that the need for a call for eaction and an outcry is not heard from the Charedi rabbis in America who are no less vigilant and concerned than their compatriots in Israel.
Bright Eyes states: The types of Rabbis I refer to are those who have been in direct or indirect contact with major Kiruv organizations who have in turn been widely assaulted and infiltrated by missionary organizations. This is not paranoia, but is well documented.
Response; Sorry, but this is total paranoia. Do you mean to say that Aish HaTorah, Ohr Somayach, Lubavitch, Arachim, Shofar, Lev Le'Achim, Yad Le'achim and many more are now off the radar because they are being secretly poisoned and perhaps even run by "missionaries"? I am sure they would be highly insulted, and all it shows is that you have no respect for Torah-true kiruv organizations and that your goal, related to the goal of imposing a Syrian like takana on all of Klal Yisroel, is to also shut down and close up all Kiruv operations. Nice pipe dream. not only are you being paranoid, but I need to ask what are you smoking because it sounds like you are hallucinating (to be nice) and just out with a hatchet to slander and destroy the amazing Kiruv organizations, who while I know full well are not perfect, are doing amazing things to bring secular Jews back to Torah observance, and in fact the Batei Din and people screaming at the geirus and assimilation situation should actually ask for help from Kiruv workers to see how you can truly successfuly mekarev people and bring about a rapprochement between secular and religious Jews and not keep pushing Klal Yisroel to the brink and see how far you can go before people will get really annoyed and who knows what explosion could happen.
Bright Eyes states: Slowly but surely Christian ways of looking at religion, responsibility, and law have been adopted by many Jewish people without their even realizing it.
Response: Laadeedeedaa, now it is you that is pontificating and sounding Chrsitain. You are prattling as if you were a Chasidish fourth grade teacher telling all the little innocent kinderlach to watch out for the goyishe velt and not to be influenced by the goyim. Stop infantalizing your audience and assume that people know this stuff and wish that you would say something grown-up for a change.
Bright Eyes states: Rabbi Tropper of EJF has been unable to produce the examples of Halachic precedent that Rabbi Eidensohn has consistently requested. The reason why is because it does not exist.
Response: Who cares about Rabbi Tropper, Tom Kaplan and EJF it was just a racket so that Rabbi Tropper could get money to pay his bills and help him coast along further on his 30 year egomaniacal power-ride. So he was never a real factor in the broader discussion and Rabbi Tropper is not a rabbi in Israel like Rabbi Druckman and Rabbi Lichtenstein and Rabbi Amar who are major rabbinic and Halachic figures to many people in Israel with representation on many major Batei Din there.
Bright Eyes states: It is not unfair to ask "what has changed" in the last 50 years that was absent from Jewish law and practice for the previous 2000. Surely technology hasn't caused it, so it must be something 'social.'
Response; As I told you, what has changed is the arrival of the state of Israel in 1948 and the fact that sixty years later in 2008 about half the world's known Halachic Jews live there. Israel is now basically the center of the Jewish world in ALL ways whereas prior to 1948, for the last 2000 years, it was only a spiritual and religious concept in the prayers and hopes of Jews who yearned to return there. So yes, the arrival of modern Zionism about 120 years ago is what changed, and all of Zionism is NOT against Halachah but that is now going to become a whole new aspect of this elongated public debate in Israel and as a topic of discussion as we already see it unfolding.
Bright Eyes states: I don't think jerseygirl or anyone else would accuse you, or Rabbi Drukman, of being Christian missionaries. But is it possible that you have been unwittingly affected by their worldview? The Christian way declares that religion is in the heart rather than in deeds. Yet, Judaism is a religion of action AND intent. Our religion while very intellectual, is also very phsyical. We inherit our Jewishness, or we can adopt it by physically performing the Mitzvot.
Response: There is so much self-righteous innuendo in what you say here that I really should say nothing to you. But suffice it to say that I know full well what you are saying but you are again seeing something but you are interpreting it incorrectly. You seem to think that it is "Christian" to have rachmonus on people. You seem to think that it is "Christian" to be rational. You also seem to think that anyone who does not see the world like you do must also somehow have been tainted by Christianity (all the points is that YOU make are what Christiana actually think about the rest of the world so that it is you that comes off looking like and acting like a Christian most of all with your intolerance, unwillingness to be rational and denial of humanity) and which only shows that you have a very shallow capacity for perceiving and understanding human nature and the interplay of that with Halacha because Halacha is for people not for robots and Halacha is expressed by people, because if H-shem wanted the Shulchan Aruch and Halacha to be like the Torah he would have produced the Torah as such, Halaacha is perhaps the highest expression of the human mind and spirit because it shows how humans, meaning the Jewish sages, can partner with G-d to produce Jewish law which is in harmony, and not here to deny or negate natural law or the laws of nature. Torah She'Beal Peh, the Oral Torah is not of the same nature as the Written Torah although it is just as G-dly and Holy. If this is too deep for you and if you think this is "Christian" and that Judaism is just a religion of "dos and donts" then sorry to tell you but it is you that has been influenced and infected by Christian thinking and infantalized attitudes.
Bright Eyes states: Where does the idea come from that a person can convert to Judaism without performing the Mitzvot?
Response: There is no such idea in Halacha. But it does predate Halacha, because how else did Avraham and Sarah become the first Jews? But that is a deeper and longer discussion. Suffice it to say that yes, after the giving of the Torah at Har Sinai 3,300 years ago anyone wishing to join the Jewish people must prove that they wish to keep the mitzvot, but to what degree and how much and by whom is not made clear and that is where and why the variances of possibilies start to creep in. So to sum up, personally I am not arguing with you on this point, but I fear that you are working with, and trying to impose your own too shallow view of this matter on the rest of the world and it won't work for that reason.
Bright Eyes states: It comes from Christianity. Before you berate me for saying that, quote ONE Jewish source that says a convert who does not keep the Mitzvot (and therefore did not intend to) is still a convert. Just ONE. You are a well read person, so I'm sure you can find it.
Response: I agree with you on this point so I don't have to prove to you what we both agree upon. But I must point out that you are now creating Straw Man Arguments (if you know what that means) and "arguing" with yourself and then coming to "conclusions" that are off the mark here because no ORTHODOX rabbi would say otherwise.
Bright Eyes states: Back to my earlier statement that never before in history has there been such a rush to convert to Judaism....don't you wonder why?
Response: I already told you why, and I am not wondering. If you were mature enough I would give you a few more very good reasons why this is ahepping now and today but you are prone to the very thing you accused me of "preaching" and "dangerous" conclusions so I will hold off for now, maybe Rabbi Eidensohn will show a little more broad mindedness and we can talk about all the aspeects of this crisis and not just the sources and citations he brings to suit himself.
Bright Eyes states: If you remove those who are doing so to correct an intermarriage, who do you think is left? Muslims? Hindus? Shinto? Hare Krishnas? No. 100% of them are Christian. Why would you suppose that is?
Response: You are boring me with this. Get to the point already.
Bright Eyes states: A quick answer might be that a truth seeker will always find the true religion. But since 2/3 of the world is NOT Christian, you would expect 2/3 of the truth-seekers who convert to Judaism to be from religions other than Christianity.
Response: More boring empty nothings from you.
Bright Eyes states: Christianity has a vested interest in Christianizing Jewish Orthodoxy. There are many reasons for this which I will not go into in this post for the sake of brevity.
Response: And this you call a "punch-line" -- you have finally discovered the "bad guys" and its the Christians? Whoopie-doo! So there is now a"Passover-Plot-in-Reverse" with Christians metaphorically planning and executing the poisoning the minds and hearst of all the nice little Yeshiva bochurs and Bais Yaakov meidalach and the Chasidishe kids in Boro Park, Monsey and Willimsburg -- I mean gimme a break. I know you say you deal with missionaries but really now, they are a bunch of Yotzes and you are suffering from a syndrome it seems that you need to preach even to people who are not involved with fighting missionaries the same way you would try to convince someone to stop following the missionaries. Remember, missionaries deal with ignoramuses and to be blunt, idiots, and sometimes if that is who you are exposed for too long, it may be rubbing off on you, so get with the beat and put all those Christain paranoias to rest. The issue of Zionism is more relevant, but Christianity is a has been challenge for CHAREDI Jews.
RaP: "She can speak for herself unless you are the same posters."
ReplyDelete"She" doesn't like being called a Nazi because she believes that the Jewish people should govern themselves by halacha and not according to Western European Christian ideals.
No, "Jersey Girl" and "Bright Eyes" are not the same poster. You could probably tell that from my writing style which I have been told is quite distinct from that of most Americans.
RaP- "Christians metaphorically planning and executing the poisoning the minds and hearts of all the nice little Yeshiva bochurs and Bais Yaakov meidalach and the Chasidishe kids in Boro Park, Monsey and Willimsburg --"
Why is this hard to believe?
Christians spend by their own admission more than a billion dollars a year missionizing Jews. That is about equal to the amount spent by all Orthodox day schools in the US.
to RaP:
ReplyDeleteI realize I come off as paranoid when it comes to Christian Missionaries. Here are some reasons why:
In my part time volunteer work over the past 14 years I have discovered Christian missionaries working in the following positions:
Math and science teachers in a Bais Yaakov. (the first clue is when a person with a Doctorate or MS is willing to work for 20k per year as a teacher in a school that doesn't regularly make the payroll).
Secular studies principal in a mesivta. (Again way over qualified for the job).
One Sephardic synagogue hired 3 different missionaries to be Rabbi in a ten year time period. One of them attended Ohr Samayeach and was also head of Arachim in the US. He also went on to become principal of a Jewish Day school in Los Angeles.
A background check revealed visa sponsorship by a Protestant Church. The reason the background check was done later rather than sooner was because the President of the synagogue turned out to be a Jew for Jesus. His picture was in the newspaper in one of their rallies).
He was also President of Sephardic Federation.
There are two synagogues in CA whose Rabbis' charities are registered to Protestant churches (this is not a mistake, it was verified). One of these has sons who are also Rabbis.
Middle class wives of church leaders who take jobs as domestics in Jewish homes. We've had quite a few of those.
Social workers for Jewish agencies and in nursing homes.
Janitors in synagogues who hang out with the "kids at risk" Shabbos morning and missionize them.
I had two ministers who hung out in front of one Young Israel and another Sephardic synagogue on Shabbos morning who would just schmooze with the kids who were not inside with their parents.
Every Shabbos morning in many Jewish neighborhoods groups of missionaries go visiting. They know which houses will have children home with maids. The missionaries are invited in and they entertain the children with songs, candy and toys.
There is also Christian who managed to become an Orthodox "Rabbi" who supervises a "chalav Yisrael" dairy in the US.
And the MOST chutzpahdik of all is a missionary "Rabbi" in a Messianic congregation who volunteers with Jews for Judaism allegedly chasing missionaries.
There is more and more, but I'm sure you get the gist.
To Bright Eyes of May 7, 2008 5:57 AM:
ReplyDeleteFrom all the cases you cite it sounds like the main problem is with the naivete of the people who hired them and that the balebatim and committees responsible were not in touch with others such as Torah Umesorah or with serious, seasoned and experienced colleagues who could have guided them.
Sorry, but from all the cases you cite it sounds like they are mostly cases of "you get what you pay for" and that the problem really lies NOT with the missionaries but with the almost certain Jewish LAY LEADERS who are nine times out of ten pure jerks who think they know better than the rest of the world (or reliable rabbis and mechanchim) so they got sold lemons and the the communities suffered. Very sad.
To be honest I have lived in a few Ashkenazi Orthodox and Charedi communities all my life and my learning and working life has been almost only among Orthodox and Charedi rabbis, schools, yeshivas and institutions, and NEVER have I heard of or come across any instance of anything like the cases you mention here, so maybe you need to move away from where you live to a stronger Torah community, I highly recommend it for someone so concerned about Halachah.
One final point, Sefardim are NOT used to living in a Christian society so it it more logical that they, meaning their schools, synagogues, institutions and communties would be more vulnerable to missionaries tricks and their sneaky attacks. Secular and assimilated Ashkenazim become vulnerable when they empty out of Jewish knowledge, but with Sefardim who even claim to stick to Orthodoxy and Halacha they often misread and misuderstand the subtle cultural cues and signals that they should be seeing to warn them that there is a Christian missionary or overly zealous Christian true believer who may not even be a missionary in their midst.
This makes sense because Ashkenazim have lived under Christian domination and have had to learn to deal with their Christian "overlords" and rulers and governements since the dawn of Christianity, but Sefardim have no group memory, unspoken awareness or inherent consciouness of that because essentially they have lived under the power and influence of the Mohammadans and Islam which is quite a different kettle of fish to Westen Christianity. By the way, similarly, people of Western European origin would not be oriented and savvy enough to know how to set up a school system or a social system in short order were they to be transposed suddenly to some far off Middle Easterm locale, and they would certainly be culturally dumb and numb to pick a subtle cultural and underhanded religious assault were it to be launched against them by Moslem or Islamic clerics out to convert Jews to Islam.
Islam like Judaism considers coerced conversions null and void.
ReplyDeleteYou are correct in saying:
"One final point, Sefardim are NOT used to living in a Christian society so it it more logical that they, meaning their schools, synagogues, institutions and communties would be more vulnerable to missionaries tricks and their sneaky attacks. Secular and assimilated Ashkenazim become vulnerable when they empty out of Jewish knowledge, but with Sefardim who even claim to stick to Orthodoxy and Halacha they often misread and misuderstand the subtle cultural cues and signals that they should be seeing to warn them that there is a Christian missionary or overly zealous Christian true believer who may not even be a missionary in their midst."
Christian missionaries do tend to target Sephardim more aggressively than Ashkenazim for this reason.
However, Orthodox Ashkenazim are hardly immune to Christian missionaries.
Several months ago, my cousin's (married to a Chasid) husband came home from a Beis Midrash in Boro Park with some literature in Yiddish that looked like a very nice Parsha sheet.
The children were reading it at the kitchen table when Zaide came in, looked at it and went hysterical.
It was Christianity, cloaked in Parsha lavishly produced by Jews for Jesus. The children were soaking it up, completely unaware that it was not Jewish because they are so accustomed to the false insecurity that anything in Yiddish is for them.
My cousins tell me Jews for Jesus has lots of Yiddish speaking missionaries working Boro Park.
RaP says "
ReplyDeleteTo be honest I have lived in a few Ashkenazi Orthodox and Charedi communities all my life and my learning and working life has been almost only among Orthodox and Charedi rabbis, schools, yeshivas and institutions, and NEVER have I heard of or come across any instance of anything like the cases you mention here,"
You could be living with many of the same problems and just not realize it.
You are correct that Sephardim in general are too trusting and gullible. Ashkenazim get fooled by the clothing, appearance, and use of Yiddishisms.
The super-frum are somewhat more susceptible than most because they are overconfident of their communal immunity.
Well, the latest news of 09-16-08 reported on VIN is that Ashekneazi and Sephardi rabbis are at loggerheads over appointments and patronage, with Rav Eliashic opposing Rav Ovadia Yosef. it's amighty rabbinical brawl indeed, and the questions about conversions areen't even on the table, see the article:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.vosizneias.com/20384/2008/09/16/jerusalem-ashkenazim-sephardim-fight-over-chief-rabbinate-appointments/
"Ashkenazim, Sephardim Fight over Chief Rabbinate Appointments
Jerusalem - A dispute between Sephardi and Ashkenazi rabbis over the appointment of Shas mentor Rabbi Ovadia Yosef’s son has prevented the two camps from joining forces to take control of the Chief Rabbinate’s governing council.
Next Tuesday, a voting body of 150 rabbis and public servants will convene to vote for the Chief Rabbinate’s governing council (moetzet harabanut harashit), the final authority on issues such as criteria for kosher supervision, deciding who is a Jew for the purpose of marriage and the appointment of new rabbis and marriage registrars.
One of the issues waiting to be decided by the governing council is whether or not to allow rabbis who already receive a salary from the state to enjoy additional sources of income from conducting weddings, giving lectures or providing kashrut supervision.
If they were to cooperate, Shas, which represents Sephardi haredi Jewry, and the two Ashkenazi haredi parties, Degel Hatorah and Agudath Yisrael, would enjoy a majority in the 150-person voting body.
However, Degel Hatorah and Agudath Yisrael refuse to form a united voting bloc with Shas in protest against Shas’s candidate Rabbi Avraham Yosef, the chief rabbi of Ashdod and the son of Rabbi Ovadia Yosef.
Rabbi Yosef Shalom Elyashiv, the supreme halachic authority for Ashkenazi haredim, ordered his representatives to oppose the appointment of Avraham Yosef.
“Rabbi Elyashiv told us that he would support any other of Rabbi Ovadia’s sons, just not Avraham,” said a source in the rabbinate close to Rabbi Elyashiv.
Elyashiv’s opposition to Rabbi Avraham Yosef is primarily due to his position on laws governing the Sabbatical (shmita) year.
Rabbi Avraham Yosef personally oversaw implementation of a controversial halachic ruling called “heter mechira.”
According to heter mechira, land in Israel is sold to non-Jews for the duration of the shmita year, thus enabling Jewish farmers to continue to work the land as usual.
Rabbi Elyashiv and rabbis associated with him adamantly opposed heter mechira.
Meanwhile, Rabbi Ovadia Yosef is resolute in his demand that Shas affiliates within the Chief Rabbinate support the appointment of his son.
With Sephardim and Ashkenazim at loggerheads over Yosef’s appointment, religious Zionists, who make up the third camp within the chief rabbinate, are hoping to get three of their candidates elected.
Chief Rabbi of Shoham David Stav, who is also spokesman for the Hesder Yeshivot and a senior member of Tzohar Rabbis, is one of three candidates representing religious Zionists.
The chief rabbi of Kiryat Shmona, Tzfania Drori, and the chief rabbi of Safed, Shmuel Eliyahu, are also running.
In addition to Avraham Yosef, Shas is also supporting former Shas MK Rabbi Yitzhak Peretz, and Rabbi Shimon Ben-Shimon.
Elyashiv’s camp is supporting Rabbi Moshe Rauchverger, a neighborhood rabbi in the Haifa area and head of the Association of Neighborhood Rabbis, the chief rabbi of Migdal Haemek, Yitzhak David Grossman, known as the “disco rabbi” for his outreach work with youth at pubs and discos, and Chief Rabbi of Rehovot Simcha Cohen Kook.
A total of 10 rabbis - five Ashkenazi and five Sephardi - will be chosen to sit on the chief rabbinate’s governing council for a five-year term. In addition to the 10 elected rabbis, there are also five additional rabbis who are members of the council. These include the two chief rabbis Shlomo Amar and Yonah Metzger, and the chief rabbis of the nation’s largest cities Rabbi Israel Meir Lau (Tel Aviv), Rabbi Shlomo Chelouche (Haifa) and Rabbi Yehuda Deri (Beersheba). Jerusalem does not have a chief rabbi.
Half of the 150-person voting body that will choose the 10 rabbis is made up public officials: the mayors of the nation’s 25 largest cities, heads of the six largest local councils, the heads of the four largest regional councils, the heads of the 14 largest religious councils and the heads of the religious councils belonging to the four largest local councils.
The other half of the voting body is made up of the chief rabbis of the the largest cities, local and regional councils and moshavim.
The size of local and regional councils and cities is determined by the size of the Jewish population.
In addition, two government ministers, five MKs and 10 public officials appointed by Religious Affairs Minister Yitzhak Cohen (Shas) also make up the voting body.
News Source: Jpost"