Divisions, labels and boxes - root of wisdom & hatred

I received the following comment which apparently was taken from another blog. There are two basic approaches in dealing with this question 1) what exactly bothers you about differentiating, labeling and grouping? Do you reject all just activity? What would the world look like if there wasn't labeling and grouping? 2) Would you like to know the advantages and necessity for discriminating, grouping and differentiating? If this is a topic of interest to the readers I will cite sources relevant to the second approach. Of particular interest is the attitude of the Meshech Chochma and the Netziv dealing with the right and left in Yiddisheit.

Obviously there is a downside to this activity but before you issue a blanket condemnation it is worthwhile taking a more nuanced approach to the matter.
=====================
Anonymous wrote:

"I think you should address this since you seem such a strong advocate of it"

On divisions within Judaism

It is very funny and sad, that when people's opinion differ there is what I call random categorization that happens. For some reason people have a need of labeling other people? Your a left wing and I am a right or you are Haredi and I am not, Ultra Orthodox and modern.

All what these labels and categorization do is separate and distance people to the point that each has to go to his own shul, and live in a different community, and has his own shulchan aruch.

I often wonder when 600,000 Jews received the Torah did they all started labeling each other.

Did 600,000 Jews with 600,000 opinions started separating from each other due their hashkafas. Did say you are lefty (therefore wrong) and I am righty (therefore right).

Why is there a need to label different Jews? Why does disagreeing with another Jew we feel a need to separate ourselves. Do people honestly believe that calling somebody a liberal or a modern Jew makes you go to Heaven because you are more strict on Judaism while for whatever reason you give yourselves a Heter to say Loshan Hara about a group of Jews.

Releasing terrorists - goodwill gestures & peace

Arutz Sheva reported:(excerpt)

(IsraelNN.com) Close to 200 terrorists, including two who had murdered Jews, were freed Monday in another "goodwill gesture" to the PA by Prime Minister Ehud Olmert.

Relatives and friends of Jews who are imprisoned in Israeli prisons held a protest Monday morning to demonstrate their disgust at the government’s decision to keep their loved ones in jail while freeing Arab terrorists.

The protestors demonstrated at the Ofer Prison, calling on the government to release Jewish prisoners as it has the hundreds of Arabs that have been freed in Prime Minister Olmert’s numerous “goodwill gestures” to the Palestinian Authority.

Security officials began the process of releasing 198 Palestinian Authority Arab terrorists and security prisoners, including two with “blood on their hands,” Monday morning at the Ofer Prison, north of Jerusalem.

After signing a document that certified their promise to abstain from returning to a life of terrorism, each convict – including the two who actually killed Jews, as well as the many others who attempted to do so, but failed – boarded buses taking them to Ramallah and then to their homes in Judea and Samaria.

In a statement released to the media, the government spokesperson’s office said the released prisoners are all members of factions that support the leadership of Palestinian Authority Chairman and Fatah leader Mahmoud Abbas (Abu Mazen).

Jerusalem - light rail train & spirituality

Bartley Kulp recommended ynetnews.

Rabbis: Light rail train 'a disaster for Judaism'

Ultra-Orthodox Rabbinical Transportation Committee strongly opposes new form of transportation in Jerusalem, saying it constitutes ‘a huge step backwards on a worldly, spiritual level alike’

The ultra-Orthodox community opposes the Jerusalem light rail train. The Haredi population’s Rabbinical Transportation Committee approached Knesset members and ministers this week in a request to reconsider the routes for the capital's light rail train.

“In our meeting with transportation experts it became clear that the Transport Ministry is planning on cancelling a large part of the haredi lines that exist in the city,” the committee stated in a letter written a month and a half ago.

According to them, the goal is to “force the ultra-Orthodox population in specific neighborhoods to take the light train and in other neighborhoods to ride the regular lines.”

The committee’s various rabbis also wrote in the letter, “We conclude that the light train is not at all suitable for the ultra-Orthodox community’s needs, neither worldly nor spiritually. The goal of forcing the ultra-Orthodox community to use the light train constitutes a severe spiritual danger.

“The Transport Ministry intends on altering the bus routes that serve the general public and move them to the Geula neighborhood and thus, to completely ruin the neighborhood’s spiritual character.”

The rabbis warned that due to limitations on the entrance of private vehicles into the city center, the Geula neighborhood will turn into a parking area for all those coming to the center. This is likely to increase the traffic on the neighborhood’s narrow streets and occupy the residents’ parking spaces. [...]

“There are those who will call this ‘a disaster for ultra-Orthodox Judaism,’ and those that will express themselves with greater severity. What is clear is that this is a huge step backwards on a worldly and spiritual level alike.”

Modesty squad targeted by Jerusaelm police III

Jerusalem Post reported:

A mishmeret tzniut, roughly translated as "modesty squad," is a vigilante body, usually with some form of rabbinic license, that has taken upon itself to enforce normative ultra-Orthodox behavior.

The mishmeret tzniut derives its power from its ability to identify and manipulate the zealotry of the haredi majority.

There are a multitude of such bodies representing different haredi sects that deal with issues from the eradication of MP-4 and DVD sales in strictly haredi neighborhoods to the fight against ultra-Orthodox pop concerts, from the creation of separate seating in the waiting room of the local post office to the strict supervision of women's clothing stores to make sure no tight-fitting or otherwise immodest apparel is being offered to haredi females.

All the crusades chosen by the various modesty squads are no-brainers for the majority of the haredi populace. After all, who is not against the sale of potentially lascivious movies in one's neighborhood? And who is not opposed to the introduction of Western-style pop stars to the wholesome haredi culture?

Rabbinic leadership may or may not buy into the means used by the activists to further their just causes. Even if the rabbinic leaders oppose certain actions taken by the mishmeret hatzniut, they usually cannot publicly attack it for fear of losing their credibility among the public who look to its rabbis to champion haredi zealotry and meticulous adherence to the letter of the law.

In Jerusalem, the most well-known and established enforcer of haredi norms is the Council for the Purity of the Camp (Va'ad Le'ma'an Tohar Hamachane), which was created by Rabbi Yitzhak Meir Safronovitch with the blessing of the fifth Gerer rebbe, Israel Alter, also known as the Beis Yisrael, who passed away in 1977.

It is unclear what connections the council has to the Ger hassidic sect today.

Binyamin Meirovitch, one of the men detained by police due to his alleged connection with the severe beating of a divorced woman, is also connected to the Council for the Purity of the Camp.

Meirovitch owns the Ne'eman printing press that publishes pashkevilim, the black and white notices plastered on the walls and bulletin boards of haredi neighborhoods. These notices, complete with the signatures of prominent rabbis, are the preferred medium for relaying warnings, orders or information from the rabbinic leadership or quasi-rabbinic bodies such as the council to the haredi street.

One of Meirovitch's employees is Elchanan Buzaglo, who was accused by police of, along with six others, beating the divorced woman.

The rumor on the haredi street is that the woman was beaten because her former husband complained that she was acting immodestly.

Despite the brutality of the beating, as described in the police rap sheet, a vocal contingent in the haredi community took to the streets against what they saw as police intervention in internal matters.

As Shmuel Poppenheim, a spokesman for the Edah Haredit put it, "The vast majority of haredim are opposed to the use of violence.

"But when the iniquities are taking place right next door, anybody in their right mind would do what it takes to put an end to the madness."

No formal announcement condemning the violence against the woman was released by the Edah Haredit. However, according to the Chadarei Haredim (haredi rooms) Internet forum, Rabbi Moshe Sternbach, a member of the Edah's leadership, told his students it was permissible to hand over to the police haredi zealots who desecrated God's name with their actions.

Sternbach could not be reached Sunday at his Jerusalem home to verify the report.

Missing girl - police ask help finding

Aug. 24, 2008
JPost.com Staff , THE JERUSALEM POST

Israel Police turned to the public on Sunday, for help in finding Rose, a four-year-old girl from Netanya who went missing in May 2008.

The girl is described as being 80 centimeters tall, skinny, with light-brown hair and blue eyes. Police said that they strongly fear for her life, but further details were not disclosed due to a gag order on the matter.

Anybody with information about the girl and her whereabouts should either file a report with the Netanya police, or contact the police by phone at: 08-9279466, or 08-9279575.

Police stressed that although Rose has been missing for over 3 months, her absence was only reported to the police two weeks ago.

Temple Mount - renewal of ban

Haaretz reported:

Israel's leading ultra-Orthodox rabbis are waging a new offensive against Jews visiting Jerusalem's Temple Mount. Rabbis Shalom Elyashiv, Chaim Kanievsky and Ovadia Yosef sent a letter recently to Rabbi Shmuel Rabinovich, the overseer of holy places in the Western Wall complex, urging him to reiterate the religious decree signed 40 years ago by most rabbis in Israel forbidding Jews from entering the Mount.

The rabbis' efforts follow the publication in Haaretz last month of the visit of Rabbi Moshe Tendler, the son-in-law of prominent U.S. rabbi Moshe Feinstein, to the Temple Mount. Rabbi Tendler was photographed visiting the plaza atop the Mount, where the Dome of the Rock Islamic shrine now sits, igniting a firestorm of controversy in the ultra-Orthodox community. Several other prominent ultra-Orthodox rabbis have ascended the Mount in recent years, including Rabbi Dov Kook of Tiberias, the husband of Elyashiv's granddaughter.

The rabbis' statement calls for a complete ban on entering any part of the Temple Mount complex for fear of compromising the "purity" of the area.

The declaration stated that "as time passed, we have lost knowledge of the precise location of the Temple, and anyone entering the Temple Mount is liable to unwittingly enter the area of the Temple and the Holy of Holies," referring to the inner sanctuary of the Temple tabernacle.

Rabbi Elyashiv urged Rabinovich to place notices and guards around the complex to warn the faithful of the prohibition.

Rabbi Kanievsky wrote that "entrance to the Temple Mount, and the defilement of the Holy of Holies, is more severe than any of the violations in the Torah."

After Israel gained control of the Temple Mount in the 1967 Six-Day War, the chief rabbinate placed signs around the complex informing visitors that entering the area would result in divine punishment, namely death.

But recent years have seen a change in position among national-religious rabbis, many of whom have made efforts to lift the ban on visiting the Mount. The change in position is due partly to damage caused to Jewish antiquities at the site, and the denial by Muslim authorities of Jewish links to the area. Kiryat Shmona chief rabbi Zephania Drori, chief rabbi of Judea and Samaria Dov Lior and Ma'aleh Adumim yeshiva head Nahum Rabinovich are among the religious authorities calling for a review of the ban.

Kosher meat - trial by media?

New York Times reported:

An immigration raid at the nation’s largest kosher meatpacking plant has opened a wide rift among Jewish leaders over the company’s ethical conduct and led to new interest in a campaign to create wage and safety standards for workers producing kosher food.

The Agriprocessors Inc. plant in Postville, Iowa, lost about half its work force when 389 illegal immigrants were detained there in May, causing shortages of kosher meat and poultry in butcher shops and supermarkets across the country.

Immigrants caught in the raid told labor investigators of unpaid overtime, lax safety measures and under-age workers at the plant. Their stories have troubled many kosher consumers and given impetus to a campaign known as Hekhsher Tzedek (which means “justice certification” in Hebrew) to create an additional seal of approval for kosher-certified products, indicating that the producers met certain standards for the treatment of workers.

“People want kosher food that is produced in an appropriate manner according to both ritual law and ethical law,” said Rabbi Morris J. Allen of Mendota Heights, Minn., who is leading the effort backed by the United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism, representing the synagogues of the Conservative movement, and the Rabbinical Assembly, the organization of Conservative rabbis.

But while Rabbi Allen and others have criticized Agriprocessors, some Orthodox Jewish leaders rallied to the company’s defense. After touring the Postville plant on July 31, a delegation of 20 Orthodox rabbis, including leaders of kosher certification organizations from the United States and Canada, concluded Agriprocessors was “an A-1 place,” said Rabbi Pesach Lerner, vice president of the National Council of Young Israel, an Orthodox group.

“An old medieval plant we didn’t see,” said Rabbi Lerner, who organized the trip. “We saw a Cadillac with top-of-the-line machinery and a heavy emphasis on safety, security and health.”

A spokesman for the company, Menachem Lubinsky, said it had been unfairly singled out for labor violations that were unproven accusations. Mr. Lubinsky told The Jewish Week newspaper that Agriprocessors was facing a “Dreyfus trial in the media,” referring to the case of a Jewish military officer in France who was unfairly tried for treason in the late 19th century.

Agriprocessors managers, at first stunned by the immigration raid, have since gone on the offensive, revising management practices and hiring lawyers and public relations advisers in an effort to rebuild the company’s reputation, especially among Jewish consumers.

Chareidim & Budget Cuts

JPost published excerpt

The aftershock from last week's publication of the Treasury's 2009 budget proposal is still reverberating throughout the haredi community. With the cabinet slated to vote on the proposal on Sunday, fiscal issues have been pushed to center stage in the haredi media.

Haredi newspapers lamented the proposed cut of NIS 200 million from the NIS 400m. yeshiva budget, which pays stipends to post-high school-age men who study in yeshivot. In its heyday, before Shinui joined Ariel Sharon's government in 2003, this budget was NIS 1 billion.

This weekend's Yom Leyom, Shas's mouthpiece, led with a story about the party's failure to find a sympathetic ear among Kadima's leading politicians for the haredi community's special budget needs.

The paper also attacked the Treasury's proposal to cut child allotments from NIS152 a month per child to NIS135, at a time when Shas's main political demand from any future prime minister is beefed-up child allotments. Shas is demanding an NIS 1b. addition, while the Treasury is hoping to cut NIS 500m. and reallocate about NIS 200m. of that to programs that help children, such as the hot lunch and extended school-day programs.

In other haredi papers, the trend was similar. The front-page headline of the weekly Bakehila was "A Broken Promise," which referred to Transportation Minister Shaul Mofaz's about-face on child allotments.

Conversion III - Bnei Menashe from India

Anonymous insists that the Chareidi community has an obligation to the Bnei Menashe. Why? As described we have a group of people living in India who claim to be of Jewish descent - they aren't - at least in the halachic sense. If you read the original article they are involved as a political football between various groups, their claims of their origin are suspect. What is done with them involves not only our relationship with India but the Christian community and every other human being in the world who claims to have some connection to the Jewish people. Are they any different than the Black Hebrews or the Ethiopians or the Nigerian tribes people etc etc? I put up the original post because of the complex matrix that they are part of. It is not simply that a generic non-Jew decided to become a Jew - converts and moves to Israel. What exactly is your problem? [it would also be helpful you if picked a name other than anonymous]

Anonymous's comment to "Conversion II - Bnei Menashe from India":

This post reflects utter ignorance and even disgusting bias ("Christians living in Manipur"). A quote like that is innuy hager at its worst.

The Bnei Menashe who make aliya from Manipur and Mizoram are largely people who were financially secure with stable lives (until aliyah). Many of them and especially the younger people have university degrees. But their businesses and their education mean nothing when they come to Israel, cultural gaps making it nearly impossible to use them. Instead, they mostly become agricultural and factory workers. But they don't complain, and are happy to have been able to come as a community to the Land of Israel. Yes, happy. Because they believe.

I am more familiar with Mizoram than with Manipur, but haven't noticed any significant differences between the olim from the two places. If anyone thinks (based on a post like this) that Mizoram is a poverty-ridden, war-torn country, simply take a look at the Wikipedia article, or do a Google search for local websites. Seems to me that if you grow up there, it is a far easier and safer place to live your life than Israel!

Regardless of any of this, there is no halakhic issue involved. Everyone agrees that regardless of the legends, they require full conversion to become Jews. And that is exactly what they do. And they are frum. And they lives of deep commitment to Torah and mitzvot.

Why more could anyone want or ask of them? Why exactly is Rabbi Eidensohn making an issue out of this? And why is the charedi community (which RDE represents) not doing the proper Torah thing here?

Shabbat Shalom

Modesty Squad targeted by Jerusalem Police II

YNET reports: [See also VIN regarding Bedatz involvement]

Meah Shearim residents agitated following wave of arrests of 'modesty guard' activists. In one of demonstrations held every evening, youngsters flip over police car in capital. 'The chastity squad activists are doing what the police should be doing,' senior community member says

The ultra-Orthodox neighborhood of Meah Shearim in Jerusalem was shaken up last week following the arrest of three residents suspected of being active in the haredi community's chastity squad.

The first person arrested three weeks ago was Elhanan Buzaglo, who was indicted of attacking a woman suspected of improper ties with married men in the capital's Maalot Dafna neighborhood. According to the indictment, Buzaglo received $2,000 in return for his involvement in the attack.Following his arrest, two additional suspects were detained last week. One of them is Shmuel Weisfish, who was allegedly involved in the torching of a store selling MP4 players against a ruling of the Ultra-Orthodox community's court of justice.

On Wednesday, the police arrested Binyamin Meirovich, a Jerusalem resident suspected of being one of the chastity squad's leaders, and the person responsible for the organization's operations. The police were expected to ask the court to extend his remand on Friday.

Yichus - Finding records to establish

Sacha Bogomilsky's comment to "EJFamily - Solving intermarriage through conversio...":

"For one thing many documents were destroyed during WW2. "

After the war, survivors of each village compiled Yizkor books listing the names of every Jewish family in their village and also copying the communities archived records. Yizkor books can be used to prove Jewish status since they are compiled by eyewitnesses.

The Mormons have Chevra Kadisha records, mohel books, marriage registers etc etc etc for hundreds of thousands of European Jews.

I got my great grandmothers birth certificate from Lodz Poland, 1884, without much difficulty. While I was there, I went all the way back 4 more generations just for fun.

The Soviet government kept excellent records of who was a Jew because Stalin wanted to wipe out the Jewish influence (ie Trotsky) from Communism. The Soviets recorded the ethnicity of both parents on birth records.
These records are becoming available as the Mormons are copying them to microfiche.

When proving Jewish status, one can document via civil records the mother-child relationship back to a family documented to be Jewish (ie via civil records, burial in a Jewish cemetery, yizkor book, synagogue membership, membership in any Jewish organization) in Europe.

Additionally, European countries regularly did censuses of their Jewish subjects. These records are available from the Mormons Family history libraries.

Thousands of headstones in Eastern Europe have been cataloged for genealogy purposes by members of Jewish gen. Many cemetery records are also search able online.

The Cuban Jewish community archives are stored in Miami and also can be searched online. I have not had any difficulty affirming the Jewish status of any Cuban Jew who was halachically Jewish as the community kept excellent archives.

I have helped Jews whose ancestors were from Cuba, Egypt, Russia, Poland, Greece and many other now defunct Jewish communities document their Jewishness, it is not really difficult, and it is much easier today in our internet world.

Conversion II - Bnei Menashe from India

Anonymous comment to "Conversion - Bnei Menashe from India in limbo":

Anonymous 8/21/08's description of the area where the Bnai Menashe originate does not anywhere match the reality.

The Bene Menashe are Christians living in Manipur and Mizoram between Burma and Bangladesh.

Bangladesh is one of the world’s poorest countries, ranking third after India and China in the extent of poverty. Most of the country is made up of flood plain, and while the alluvial soil provides good arable land, large areas are at risk because of frequent floods and cyclones, which take lives and destroy crops, livestock and property.

The implementation of the Armed Forces Special Powers Act (AFSPA) in 1958 resulted in the designation of Manipur as a "disturbed area" .

There has been constant war in the area since 1958. My relatives(Iraqi Jews) who fled Burma in the 1970s, abandoning their homes, vast lands (coffee plantations), businesses and other assets due to the violence and unstable government.

Ordinary Manipuris are tired of the rebels' influence and disruption of life and economy. They also issue dictates and rulings on moral and social behavior, enforced with the threat of violence. Extortion is also rampant in Manipur. Most professions are forced to pay the rebels regular sums of money that are locally called 'tax'.

Christians (which the Bnai Menashe are) are the victims of ongoing violence from local tribal people and the Hindu majority who have beheaded pastors and burned churches. There has been constant violence against Christians perpetrated by Hindus who do not wish to have their children taken from them and converted to Christianity.

Myanmar, also called Burma is one of Asia's poorest countries. Ravaged by a junta bent on keeping power, political and social unrest have been as much a part of the culture as the people. The area has been predominately unstable since the invasion of Great Britain in the 1800s.

Christian persecution in Burma is growing because it is an ethnic issue. The government of Burma has declared a culture war against Christianity by offering 6,000 kyats to any man who will marry a Christian woman because the children will be of the father's religion. The majority of the people (89%) are Buddhist and Christians are 4%.

The Bnai Menashe claim descent from one of the Lost Tribes of Israel. Linguistically, they are Tibeto-Burmans and belong to the Mizo, Kuki and Chin peoples. The group was named Bnei Menashe by Eliyahu Avichail because he believes that the legendary Kuki-Mizo ancestor Manmasiis is one and the same with Menasseh, son of Joseph.

Prior to their conversion to Christianity in the 19th Century, the Chin-Kuki-Mizo were headhunters and animists. They have no written history but their legends refer to a beloved homeland they were driven away from called Sinlung/Chhinlung.

Anthropologists and historians believe that it was located in China's Yunnan province and that the Tibeto-Burman migration from there began about 6000 years ago.

Although Michael Freund claims that the Bnei Menashe claim to have a chant they call Miriam's Prayer, the words of the chant are identical to that of the Sikpui Song .

Freund claims that according to the Bnei Menashe "a century ago, when British missionaries first arrived in India's North-East, they were astonished to find that the local tribesmen worshiped one god, were familiar with many of the stories of the Bible, and were practicing a form of biblical Judaism".

By all empirical historical accounts, the entire tribe were animists at the time of the arrival of the missionaries.

Chabad - Training children to be soliders in G-d's Army

YNET wrote the following excerpt

The rabbi's army

Chabad summer camp includes money collection, love of God; 'the object is to send emissaries all over the world so that every Jew would have the option of receiving physical and spiritual aid,' coordinator says

They stand in a line, fall in a group of threes and are ordered to go to the parade ground, equipped with a discipline manual. Despite the similarities to any army recruitment center, these are not 18-year-old kids who are joining the IDF, these are children, aged 9 to 13 who were accepted to a unique program aimed at training the children as "house managers" for the countless Chabad houses located worldwide. The program is run by the Chabad organization itself.

For this purpose, Kfar Galim, a youth village located near the coastal town of Atlit was chosen. Some 150 children, who are planning to become emissaries of the Rabbi of Lubavitch, still get to go to the pool and field trips, but the bulk of the training is given in an entirely military-like discipline, which includes an intensive program where the children stay at the youth village for more than two weeks without returning home to mom and dad.

Among the activities the children attend are lectures on the various aspects of being a Chabad emissary, from helping the poor to holding Passover Seders for the hundreds of Israeli backpackers overseas who desire a little piece of home.

This course, the first of its kind, was designed and is run by Chabad's youth organization, headed by Rabbi Joseph Isaac Aharonov, and is aimed to instill the essence of emissary work for Chabad, and build up a renewing pool of potential future emissaries.

"This course is designed to continue the Rabbi of Lubavitch's way, to educate the next generation of Chabad leadership and to instill the love of Israel", said Rabbi Aharonov, "These children will be the representatives of Chabad everywhere". The results, he hopes, will be evident in a few years when these children get married, only then, if they wish and are able to meet the criteria required, can they become emissaries for Chabad.

Conversion of intermarried couples - two major prohibitions

There are two separate prohibitions mentioned in Yevamos (24b) regarding the marriage of someone who has been living with a non-Jewish woman prior to conversion. 1) Conversion for the sake of marriage is prohibited l’chatchila – but according to most poskim today if there is a sincere acceptance of mitzvos it is permitted. 2) It is prohibited to allow a marriage to a convert who it is suspected was living with the Jewish man prior to conversion. Is it better or worse that they were living openly as husband and wife prior to conversion?

The issue of why we today ignore clearly stated prohibitions in the gemora is discussed at great length in the literature. It is too complex an issue for simple summary. Below is the gemora and following it is an excerpt from Rabbi Bleich. There is also an excellent discussion in Prof. Finkelstein’s book on geirus.

MISHNAH. IF A MAN IS SUSPECTED OF [INTERCOURSE] WITH A SLAVE WHO WAS LATER EMANCIPATED, OR WITH A HEATHEN WHO SUBSEQUENTLY BECAME A PROSELYTE, LO, HE MUST NOT MARRY HER. IF, HOWEVER, HE DID MARRY HER THEY NEED NOT BE PARTED. IF A MAN IS SUSPECTED OF INTERCOURSE WITH A MARRIED WOMAN WHO, [IN CONSEQUENCE,] WAS TAKEN AWAY FROM HER HUSBAND, HE MUST LET HER GO EVEN THOUGH HE HAD MARRIED HER.

GEMARA. This implies that she may become a proper proselyte. But against this a contradiction is raised. Both a man who became a proselyte for the sake of a woman and a woman who became a proselyte for the sake of a man, and, similarly, a man who became a proselyte for the sake of a royal board, or for the sake of joining Solomon's servants,1are no proper proselytes. These are the words of R. Nehemiah, for R. Nehemiah used to Say: Neither lion-proselytes, nor dream-proselytes nor the proselytes of Mordecai and Esther are proper proselytes unless they become converted at the present time. How can it be said, ‘at the present time’?-Say ‘as at the present time’! -Surely concerning this it was stated that R. Isaac b. Samuel b. Martha said in the name of Rab: The halachah is in accordance with the opinion of him who maintained that they were all proper proselytes. If so, this should have been permitted altogether! - On account of [the reason given by] R. Assi. For R. Assi said, Put away from thee a froward mouth, and perverse lip's etc.

Rabbi Bleich writes in his article Conversion for the Sake of Intermarriage

The vast majority of questionable conversions are performed in order to facilitate marriage with a Jewish spouse and quite often occur after a civil marriage has already taken place. However, such unions present a grave halakhic problem. Even when the conversion itself is entered into with the utmost sincerity and conviction, it is questionable whether a converted Jewess may marry a Jew with whom she consorted while still a gentile The Mishnah (Yevamos 24b) declares that one who is suspected of having cohabited with a gentile woman may not marry the woman in question subsequent to her conversion. The Mishnah adds, however, that if the marriage did take place the couple are not obliged to seek a divorce. Rashi explains that this prohibition was promulgated in order to safeguard the honor and reputation of the husband since marriage under such circumstances is likely to lend credence to rumors of previous immorality. On the basis of the explanation advanced by Rashi, some authorities" conclude that this prohibition does not encompass instances in which the couple have been living together publicly, since in such cases previous immoral conduct is an established verity."… Rabbi Feinstein asserts that even according to Rashba's interpretation, the prohibition against marriage following con­version is not applicable in cases where a civil marriage has already taken place. Since the couple have already established a permanent conjugal relationship, argues Rabbi Feinstein, there can be no grounds for the suspicion that conversion was insincerely sought merely for the sake of marriage. It would seem, however, that the numerous authorities cited in an earlier section, who maintain that the desire to legitimize the rela­tionship and to contract a marriage which is valid in the eyes of Halakhah constitute an ulterior motive disqualifying the candidacy of a prospective proselyte, would also deem marriage subsequent to conversion to be for­bidden, according to Rashba, on these self-same grounds. R. Yosef Sha'ul Nathanson expressly forbids the marriage of a Jew and a prospective con­vert despite the fact that they had been married in a civil ceremony and had sired children." Such marriages are also forbidden by R. Ya'akov Ettlinger t?- and R. Meir Arak.47b…

Whatever the final adjudication of the Halakhah with regard to this complex question may be in any particular case, it can be seen that the permissibility of marriage under such circumstances constitutes a matter requiring careful halakhic deliberation.