tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post857020270746142041..comments2024-03-29T09:34:59.827+03:00Comments on Daas Torah - Issues of Jewish Identity: Yair Lapid's Fascinating 20 minutes in the Knesset, Part 2 by RaPDaas Torahhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-36207624535776789672013-05-07T01:57:03.570+03:002013-05-07T01:57:03.570+03:00"DF said...Lapid may be right in his position..."DF said...Lapid may be right in his positions, but Gafni is also right in heckling him in the Knesset. The tradition is: A gets up to speak, B heckles him, A then complains to his media faction that this is an embarassment and something has to change. Then, when the balance of power shifts, it happens all over again, except in reverse."<br /><br />Problem is this is now being watched and scrutinized VISUALLY like never before, like a theater and that is why Lapid wins this debate because he is acting the adult and and saying "let's be grownups" and stop being childish! <br /><br />You know, it is very odd, for the Charedim who are always harping on and on about "kiruv" and "saving neshomas" for which they have so many institutions and rabbis and collected hundreds of millions for, yet they can't figure out how to give a simple respectable response to Lapid. Secular Jewish politicians also need kiruv and Lapid has shown he is open to that, not like his father. He has appointed two rabbis to his team. He has female Talmud scholars on his team. He speaks respectfully about Judaism. If you know the Yuppies you will recognize him right away as one of them. While Gafni may know how to be the equivalent of a bar-room brawler in the Knesset and a numbers cruncher when heading a committee, he and his cohorts must realize they are facing an entirely different situation now if they hope to regain even a toehold. Otherwise they are going to be painted as crazy men and be out of power for a very, very long time. They may as well work for yeshivas and rebbes as fundraisers OUTSIDE of government.<br /><br />If Lapid extends a hand of friendship it must be explored, not barked at. Is it any different to a secular Israeli who tells a kiruv activist from Lev LeAchim to come and talk??? The age of <i>ba'al teshuvas</i> may be ending but it is far from over. It is not for nothing that there is now talk that Yesh Atid is consulting with representatives of Degel HaTorah about appointing some people to act as "advisers" or "deputies" to Yesh Atid's Rabbi Shai Piron the Yesh Atid Orthodox minister of Education. The Earth is not only shifting below us, but there has been a seismic shift.<br /><br />So therefore, yes, if they want to play musical chairs like babies, then sure let everyone continue screaming at each other that accomplishes nothing. But if something can be saved from the situation then a newer and more comprehensive realistic approach must be put in place, including a better PR image -- would a Charedi kiruv worker have a job for even one day with his organization if he acted that way with major donors or potential big-name BTs??????????????????????????????????????????? You have to learn how to smile, smile smile, and be patiuent and kind sometimes. There is a time to be tough and a time to be soft. A time to "love and a time for "war" it's hard to know right now what to do and Charedi confusion is very evident!! <br /><br />However, from the fact that Degel HaTorah people are talking Yesh Atid's Shai Piron it would seem that Rav Shteinman's pragmatism and practicality is once again coming into play. But will it be enough and will there be enough good will to create a workable solution so that secular Israelis and Charedim do not go over the cliff of their own Armageddon.Recipients and Publicitynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-27677092300583905652013-05-07T01:27:55.679+03:002013-05-07T01:27:55.679+03:00"Yerachmiel Lopin said...The haredi political..."Yerachmiel Lopin said...The haredi political problem is not PR."<br /><br />RaP: It's NOT just about "PR". See the response below to poster David Held!<br /><br />"Haredim have lost political power."<br /><br />RaP: In the last election, and now they must figure out a strategy for the future. The question is what Charedim should do and must do to regain their OFFICIAL positions of influence in Israel. They already have immense unofficial positions of power in many ways, such as in housing and neighborhoods, shopping and wholesale and retail power as consumers, as growing voter blocks, as quietly bringing in investments and charity dollars into Israel they are unrivaled to build the ongoing boom in religious life as their brethren from overseas pour in tens of billions into the Israeli economy, and they are still connected to many parts of state that does not gain the attention of the secular media that despises them.<br /><br />"Shas and other Haredim overplayed their hand to the point where Yesh Atid could garner 18 seats and displace Labor which was always willing to cut a deal with one or another Haredi party."<br /><br />RaP: Indeed 30 years in government made the Charedim complacent as it would any political group, so being in the opposition will be good for them. It has already helped in one big way that many have not noticed, by uniting all the Charedim, Ashkenazim, Sefradim, Chasidim, Litvaks are now all on the same team. Thank you Tommy Lapid, you have wonders by finally bringing <i>ACHDUS=</i> (unity) to the Charedi world in Israel !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<br /><br />"No amount of improved PR will change this equation."<br /><br />RaP: As pointed out in the response to poster David Held below, this is not merely about "PR" but that adopting PR tactics should and must be part of a revamped and improved STRATEGIC plan. And unless the Charedi leadership realizes this, with all their wonderful attributes, they will be on the outside for a long time whether Labor or Likud or Yesh Atid win, because secular Israelis are now united against what they see as the looming Charedi takeover of their beloved "<i>medinat Yisrael</i>" and turn it into an "Eretz Yisroel" <i>al pi Halacha</i>. <br /><br />"The only question is how long the current government will last."<br /><br />RaP: Probably for a long time, given the way they overcame the hurdles to coalition-building.<br /><br />"If the current coalition lasts for the full term (and Netanyahu cannot figure out a way to compromise on his committments to Lapid and Bennet) I anticipate a permanent change in policy vis a vis Haredim on a range of issues."<br /><br />RaP: Agreed, 100% -- which is why the Charedi leadership needs to come up with a REAL better counter-plan that is more than having tantrums and running around in circles hurling invectives at the e people they don't like that only makes them look like babies and fools.<br /><br />"Not being obnoxious and rude is always a good idea, but I do not see that as the central issue."<br /><br />RaP: It isn't the "central issue" and obviously if you read the whole post much more is as stake, but a change of tactics by the Charedim in the Knesset might be the best place to send a very public signal that it's anew ball game now and that there is a different and better strategy being adhered to. So far, it just seems no one has any idea what to do. They think that by shouting, as if they are beseeching heaven in the Knesset as if it is "Tisha Be'Av" so that some miracle will happen (more magical thinking at work, while more <i>SECHEL</i> is required instead!!!!), when the only thing that will happen is that they will be kicked out the Knesset for disorderliness eventually at the rate they are going. Recipients and Publicitynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-80012950673428319002013-05-07T01:04:22.973+03:002013-05-07T01:04:22.973+03:00"David Held said... I agree with the comparis..."David Held said... I agree with the comparison but not because Reagan was all PR. He had a very effective PR strategy, to be sure, but it was buoyed by the fact that Carter was incompetent and at that time Reagan's policies were successful. Reducing the current situation to solely a question of PR and not substance may also be misreading the issue."<br /><br />If you read EVERYTHING in the post you will clearly see that PR is ONLY the "tip of the iceberg" here and this post does NOT mean to imply that "only" with better PR will Charedim improve their political and societal standing right now. When one talks of better PR in the political sphere it means that there is an over-all STRATEGY and PLAN and GAME PLAN in place. Right now Charedim are misreading the picture on the ground as they run around yelling "nazi, nazi" or "satan, satan"" at anything and everybody they don't like, which is just plain stupid and infantile.<br /><br />Charedim need to come up with an effective rational and in-depth battle plan for how they will successfully fight the current war, and how they plan to GOVERN once they win (they will win, but what will they do with their victory???). The days of grasping for pieces of the pie are over because the Israeli secular public views the Charedim, if not all the Orthodox combined, as a looming Jewish majority in Israel (which they almost are!!!) In return, the Charedim must stop acting like "nebech schnorers" or like self-righteous holy men who deserve to be supported or like lower class citizens who can only take benefits from the state without giving anything back in return as they are perceived from the outside.<br /><br />In a nutshell, what Charedim need to realize is that they must OVERHAUL everything about themselves and the way that they function. Often when they talk they make it sound like they are defending the honor of a few thousand Torah scholar when in point of fact the reality it that they have become a VAST <i>tzibur</i> of hundreds of thousands of all kinds of people. <br /><br />Just think: Prior to 1948 there were only about 600,000 Jews in total in the British Mandate of Palestine -- and today there are OVER 600,000 Charedim in the modern state of Israel. For Jews, the figure of 600,000 is not small. Any place with that amount of Jews has always been a self-sufficient powerful and influential entity. It is more than a "mini state" it is a big state in and of itself. And for the Charedim that means they must view themselves not as a "persecuted minority" but as a "near majority" and function accordingly, and that would include PR. <br /><br />If Israeli Charedim can't figure out what PR is then let them ask their American counterparts what it is and they will help out. But right now Charedim in Israeli are still acting as if they are in the Pale of Settlement fighting the Cossacks, when they are already way into the Information Age where technology and modernity have lifted them out of the self-imposed artificial dark and middle ages and into the 21st century. Recipients and Publicitynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-79099516545830437342013-05-07T00:06:29.839+03:002013-05-07T00:06:29.839+03:00Lapid may be right in his positions, but Gafni is ...Lapid may be right in his positions, but Gafni is also right in heckling him in the Knesset. The tradition is: A gets up to speak, B heckles him, A then complains to his media faction that this is an embarassment and something has to change. Then, when the balance of power shifts, it happens all over again, except in reverse.DFhttp://www.yahoo.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-73036329172932026902013-05-06T21:44:07.604+03:002013-05-06T21:44:07.604+03:00People say Lapid hates Chareidim because in their ...People say Lapid hates Chareidim because in their reality anything other than fawning obesience to the "gedolim" and accepting every Chareidi community demand translates into "You hate us!"<br />Lapid, as well as most seculars and Dati Leumi do not hate the Chareidim no more than most English Canadians hate the Quebecois. Instead, just like English Canadians, we see a community that has a rich culture and a spoiled-brat attitude to match. We wish the latter would go away so the former could shine but also realize that the leadership of that community can't seem to let it go.Mighty Garnel Ironhearthttp://garnelironheart.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-63508012578254595782013-05-06T18:55:23.772+03:002013-05-06T18:55:23.772+03:00I agree that smooth-talkers are in order, but not ...I agree that smooth-talkers are in order, but not only because shouting and hysteria is not working.<br /><br />Rather, it is because there is not much of substance that one could say that would make the charedi position sound reasonable to anyone outside of the charedi world.<br /><br />So, bring in the spin men, to talk around the issues and distract everyone from the substance of the critique.Dovidnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-65540397982788479332013-05-06T15:58:29.330+03:002013-05-06T15:58:29.330+03:00Without getting into the substance of who's ri...Without getting into the substance of who's right between the Chareidi parties and Yesh Atid, I would like to delve more deeply in your comparison between the current situation and Reagan and Carter. I agree with the comparison but not because Reagan was all PR. He had a very effective PR strategy, to be sure, but it was buoyed by the fact that Carter was incompetent and at that time Reagan's policies were successful. Reducing the current situation to solely a question of PR and not substance may also be misreading the issue.David Heldhttp://daattorah.blogspot.com/2013/05/yair-lapids-fascinating-20-minutes-in.html#comment-formnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-86322617092215482642013-05-06T15:41:39.057+03:002013-05-06T15:41:39.057+03:00I don't agree that the same DNA that flowed in...I don't agree that the same DNA that flowed in the veins of Tommy is what Yair Lapid is made of. (Do you recall the warm relationship that Rav Lau and Tommy had???) Lapid wants to live peacefully in his homeland together with the Religious Olem,,the question is::: IS THIS A POSSIBILITY from each end?yoninoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-31716235882333635292013-05-06T15:28:55.502+03:002013-05-06T15:28:55.502+03:00The haredi political problem is not PR. Haredim ha...The haredi political problem is not PR. Haredim have lost political power. Shas and other Haredim overplayed their hand to the point where Yesh Atid could garner 18 seats and displace Labor which was always willing to cut a deal with one or another Haredi party. No amount of improved PR will change this equation. The only question is how long the current government will last. If the current coalition lasts for the full term (and Netanyahu cannot figure out a way to compromise on his committments to Lapid and Bennet) I anticipate a permanent change in policy vis a vis Haredim on a range of issues. <br /><br />Not being obnoxious and rude is always a good idea, but I do not see that as the central issue. Yerachmiel Lopinhttp://frumfollies.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-12608744240431563912013-05-06T15:22:55.468+03:002013-05-06T15:22:55.468+03:00To play to the public, politicians need some basic...To play to the public, politicians need some basic understanding of and sympathy with that public. Always protesting about one's total righteousness and the other guys' total perfidy comes off poorly even if it's 100% true and certainly if it's less true.RAMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-5722358090103526442013-05-06T12:24:41.653+03:002013-05-06T12:24:41.653+03:00Lapid is a smart guy. He hates the chareidim no le...Lapid is a smart guy. He hates the chareidim no less than his dad did, but knows how to come across sweet and reasonable. That way the chareidim look like the bad guys when they call him a sheigetz. Gafni has pointed this out. Avraham1noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-85588735262992572492013-05-06T11:38:05.553+03:002013-05-06T11:38:05.553+03:00It is a big mistake to bring Deri back to lead Sha...It is a big mistake to bring Deri back to lead Shas, he is a a convicted criminal, and it is a Chillul Hashem for a frum party to be led by a crook. What image does this give out to both the religious and secular parties?<br /><br />On the other hand, Lapid will probably not carry out many of his threats, plus he plans to be PMin 2 years, which means he will get bogged down in pragmatism - ie he will be forced to bring in Haredi parties to his Government.Ben MIkrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07122937371918515052noreply@blogger.com