tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post8491549064417914171..comments2024-03-29T06:06:58.796+03:00Comments on Daas Torah - Issues of Jewish Identity: Reporting Abuse:At last - R Zwiebel clearly explains the Aguda's viewDaas Torahhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comBlogger53125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-55719580611084467502012-06-05T22:24:37.441+03:002012-06-05T22:24:37.441+03:00I tend to agree with Recipients and Publicity rega...I tend to agree with Recipients and Publicity regarding the fact that so many people are "hung up" on convoluted words which complicate and obfuscate issues. That's exactly what causes the Satan to be full of glee - the fact that people stymie themselves with debates and counter-debates ad nauseum, instead of seeing things clearly and straightforwardly, avoiding the use of double-negatives which make one's head swim.<br /><br />I'll offer some ideas for resolving Orthodox Jewish societal issues, though I doubt any of this will be taken seriously, just as happened with some prominent publications I'd written to over the years.<br /><br />(1) Kibbutzim should be set up (reminiscent of Ir Miklot) for people who are in troubled situations to run to. They can be called "YeshivAmish". Just like Hamaspik has been addressing the issues of special needs kids, similarly, Orthodox Jewish society should address the needs of any troubled people in their midst who have fallen between the cracks, no matter whether young or old. Pain is pain! The YeshivAmish Kibbutzim can be assigned to empathetic couples, sort of like a permanent summer camp. The structure of the YeshivAmish kibbutzim should be flexible, rather than rigid, addressing each person's needs. When he/she wishes privacy, they should have a private room (or cubicle) to retreat to and sleep in. When they wish to socialize or educate or entertain themselves at various on-site facilities, they can do so. If they wish to practice their green thumb, or even milk cows, that would be available as well. All this requires money, and above all chochma to set up - the sort of chochma which is required of programmers and engineers.<br /><br />(2) As for bringing TRUE perpetrators to justice - I.E. how to quickly determine who is guilty? The answer has been there for years. Just research QXCI/SCIO which based on quantum physics, and therefore is akin to accessing The All Knowing. That's the extent of its accuracy, both in diagnostics and other areas. If whoever is reading this is a non-believer, that would make you irrational, unless you actually try it yourself. Here's how: If you know of anyone who has a type of unusual pain THAT HAS NEVER BEEN PICKED UP ON BY CONVENTIONAL PRACTITIONERS, such as continually achy muscles in left calf, or continuous cold-sores somewhere in mouth, have them visit a legitimate SCIO practitioner (another such system is LIFE system). Then just see what quantum-physics discloses, that your doctor has not. You'll be amazed.mirinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-14348566448581153872012-06-05T21:46:03.686+03:002012-06-05T21:46:03.686+03:00Let's rephrase some of the previous comments:
...Let's rephrase some of the previous comments:<br /><br />(1) Instead of taking R'Moshe Feinstein's words out of context, why not say - suppose R'Feinstein were asked if it's permitted to report an abuser, at risk of his/her child's being further abused? R'Feinstein IMO would have responded, by all means, remove the child from further painful experiences (this would have been consistent with R'Feinstein's psak that you should not be moser a thief, at risk of thief enduring PHYSICAL PAIN at the hands of the penal system.<br />So whoever quoted R'Moshe above, PLEASE think it over again? Thank you.<br /><br />(2) Re: the one who quoted R'Elyashiv (which i'll copy/paste below) - oh? And what about abuse affecting a Jewish child's soul for eternity? Therefore, imo, there should have been "kibbutzim" set up for kids involved in such a situation. Kibbutzim run by a group of empathetic types of young couples, say, sets of 2 couples assigned to twenty kids. After all, there are group homes organized by Hamaspik, so why not this as well?<br /><br />NOW HERE'S THE COPY/PASTE:<br />Rav Yosef Eliashiv (Yeschurun 15:642): Question: In a case where the parents are abusing the children physically the secular law requires that the matter be reported to the police and the secular government might take the children from the parents custody to place them with another family – possibly even a non Jewish family until they can investigate the matter – is it permitted to report the matter to the police when it is known that the child is in fact being abuse? Answer: The answer to the question is dependent on a number of factors. If the child’s parents are observant of Torah and mitzvos and they have raised the child to be observant then to given the child to a non Jews family or even a secular Jewish family is giving the child over to idolatry. That is because there is no doubt that this will damage the soul of the child even if it is for a short period of time and this will have harmful consequences also on his future upbringing. [We are only talking about a case of abuse which is not life threatening]. We also have to evaluate what is meant by abuse since the secular perspective is entirely different than ours. Because of the complexity of the issue every case needs to be evaluated carefully by a talmid chachom who is great in scholarship and fear of heaven.mirinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-91101112071766276542012-06-04T16:26:59.313+03:002012-06-04T16:26:59.313+03:00I was giving up the possibilityto hear an orthodox...I was giving up the possibilityto hear an orthodox rabbi saying those words. You mechazek me. Thank you.yoni the yogihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05719222967106768793noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-11162766019428142462011-08-10T11:13:40.263+03:002011-08-10T11:13:40.263+03:00Ben Torah said...
DT: What is the purpose of ...Ben Torah said...<br /><br /> DT: What is the purpose of asking the rabbi for permission?<br /><br /> For the same logic that Rav Eliashiv insists a Talmid Chochom first approve of the action in the psak at Yeschurun 15:642.<br /><br />======================<br />which is?Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-40347557231838434972011-08-10T11:12:39.345+03:002011-08-10T11:12:39.345+03:00Ben Torah said...
You've also ignored my ...Ben Torah said...<br /><br /> You've also ignored my point that Rav Eliashev shlit"a, in his psak at Kovetz Teshuvos 3:231, insists that in order to report to the police/government it can "ONLY" be done if the "PROOF" is "CERTAIN". (Quotes from Rav Eliashev's psak.)<br />===================<br />Rav Eliashiv only requires a reasonable basis to suspect abuse is occurring. He explains that there has to be raglayim ledavar and not just imagination - because that is needed for tikun olam. You need to look at his entire statementDaas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-4219250880193795262011-08-10T11:04:01.645+03:002011-08-10T11:04:01.645+03:00Ben Torah wrote: SECONDLY, Rav Eliashiv in the ver...Ben Torah wrote: SECONDLY, Rav Eliashiv in the very teshuva we are discussing (Kovetz Teshuvos 3:231) clearly and unambiguously makes the following disclaimer that proves my points:<br /><br />"However, it is permitted to notify the government authorities ONLY in the case which it is CERTAIN that the accused has been sexually abusing children. Informing the authorities in such a case is clearly something for the well being of the society (tikun olam). HOWEVER in a case WHERE THERE IS NO PROOF that this activity is happening but it is merely a conjecture or suspicion, if we permit the calling of the authorities - not only would it not be an improvement (tikun olam) - but it would destroy society."<br /><br />(Note the portions I emphasized with capitals. There must be proof that is certain in order to report someone to the secular authorities, according to Rav Eliashev shlit"a.)<br /><br />=====================<br />If there is tikun olam for reporting even a suspicion would Rav Eliashiv allow it?<br />Is their tikun olam of avoiding the chillul haShem of advising an Orthodox Jew to violate the law of the land and being viewed as being more concerned for the negative publicity than the welfare of our children?[a comment that a judge actually made in an abuse case]<br /><br />Is Rav Eliashiv assuming that reporting automatically gets the person arrested even without any valid evidence? It is clear from the literature that if there is suspicions of abuse that a person can be fired from their teaching job or any job which involves contact with children.<br /><br />As I have repeatedly stated, Rav Eliashiv is only making this condition in a case where it is not mandated reporting but simply the possibility of tikun olam.<br /><br />Why don't we try a different approach. According to you, is there a requirement to go to jail rather than report what the secular law requires when a rabbi has not given permission? Do you hold that unless a rabbi gives permission by definition it is a case of mesira or it is merely a breach of respect for rabbinical authorities?Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-26978735323821468082011-08-10T11:02:39.743+03:002011-08-10T11:02:39.743+03:00You've also ignored my point that Rav Eliashev...You've also ignored my point that Rav Eliashev shlit"a, in his psak at Kovetz Teshuvos 3:231, insists that in order to report to the police/government it can "ONLY" be done if the "PROOF" is "CERTAIN". (Quotes from Rav Eliashev's psak.)Ben Torahnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-85011066824349888292011-08-10T10:58:26.503+03:002011-08-10T10:58:26.503+03:00DT: What is the purpose of asking the rabbi for pe...DT: <i>What is the purpose of asking the rabbi for permission?</i><br /><br />For the same logic that Rav Eliashiv insists a Talmid Chochom first approve of the action in the psak at Yeschurun 15:642.Ben Torahnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-72192683825522594922011-08-10T10:41:46.396+03:002011-08-10T10:41:46.396+03:00Ben Torah said...
You're missing the poin...Ben Torah said...<br /><br /> You're missing the point. BM 83 doesn't address the issue of first asking a Rov/Posek to determine whether the variables of the case meet the halachic requirement to report. Sure, when there is mandated reporting AND tikun olam would be to report, one must report. But you still need a Rov/Posek to make that determination. Rav Elyashev does not give license in any of his relevant psak's to not first ask a rov/posek if in fact the halachic necessary attributes of tikun olam apply in that particular case at hand.<br />====================<br /><br />You still don't get it. BM 83 establishes that where the government requires reporting that one needs to report. It doesn't say that you need to ask a rabbi first.<br /><br />Where does Rav Eliashiv say that getting a psak from a rabbi is an absolute prequisite of calling the police - even when there is mandated reporting?<br /><br />What is the purpose of asking the rabbi for permission? Does the rabbi grant dispensation? Does he determine guilt or innocence? Does he interrogate the victim and accused perpetrator?Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-9774193455645966462011-08-10T10:14:42.148+03:002011-08-10T10:14:42.148+03:00Can't believe all this verbiage and stonewalli...Can't believe all this verbiage and stonewalling. <br /><br />The era of the shtetels is over. Slavery, Feudalism, Czarism, Fascism, Nazism, Communism and Bolshevism are all gone now. <br /><br />Jews no longer live in old Eastern Europe or the Oriental countries. Everyone is in the open liberal Western democracies, including Israel where it is common practice to go to the police and to court for the most minor "infractions".<br /><br />If two cars scrape each other, the police are called or a police report is filed. If a neighbor blocks a driveway people call the police. If someone sees a shadow in their garage or hears a bump in the night the police are called, even if there is nothing to fear, and rabbis are not called or consulted first as they would do the same thing if their cars were scraped or their driveways blocked.<br /><br />So how much more so if one's child comes home, or goes to school, with signs and symptoms of sexual or physical abuse, either teacher or parent are obligated to report it to the police. Not to do so is to act stupid and recklessly.<br /><br />Similarly people go to court to sue each other every day. Rabbis do it and geonim do it. People hire frum lawyers yet to rush to take to court their neighbors or anyone that can be sued or pay insurance claims, the bigger the case and the jury the bigger the case.<br /><br />If one trips and falls on the holiest neighbor's property that neighbor gets sued and dragged to court whether they like it or not, no ifs ands or buts from rabbis, in fact the Satmar Rov, Rav Yoelish z"l is reputed to have instructed followers that they have a chiyuv to sue in court to get compensation (maybe that's why his great-nephews never cease to fight each other in court) so why should an abused or violated Jewish child, a wife, a young woman or vulnerable boy not get his or her day in court, sue the perpetrators, or even get them arrested by the police and thrown in jail (there is kosher food and and daf yomi there too in modern jails, so it's not so bad) for violating human and civil rights not to mention many prohibitions in the Torah and Chazal to watch over the weak such as the "Ger, Yasom, Ve'Alamanah", exhortations to do Chesed and Tsedek and not to be a menuval birshus haTorah to hide behind the Torah to avoid ridding Jewish society of its malcontents etc?Recipients and Publicitynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-65818051882774991832011-08-10T09:42:27.912+03:002011-08-10T09:42:27.912+03:00You're missing the point. BM 83 doesn't ad...You're missing the point. BM 83 doesn't address the issue of first asking a Rov/Posek to determine whether the variables of the case meet the halachic requirement to report. Sure, when there is mandated reporting AND tikun olam would be to report, one must report. But you still need a Rov/Posek to make that determination. Rav Elyashev does not give license in any of his relevant psak's to not first ask a rov/posek if in fact the halachic necessary attributes of tikun olam apply in that particular case at hand.<br /><br />SECONDLY, Rav Eliashiv in the very teshuva we are discussing (Kovetz Teshuvos 3:231) clearly and unambiguously makes the following disclaimer that proves my points:<br /><br /><i>"However, it is permitted to notify the government authorities ONLY in the case which it is CERTAIN that the accused has been sexually abusing children. Informing the authorities in such a case is clearly something for the well being of the society (tikun olam). HOWEVER in a case WHERE THERE IS NO PROOF that this activity is happening but it is merely a conjecture or suspicion, if we permit the calling of the authorities - not only would it not be an improvement (tikun olam) - but it would destroy society."</i><br /><br />(Note the portions I emphasized with capitals. There must be proof that is certain in order to report someone to the secular authorities, according to Rav Eliashev shlit"a.)Ben Torahnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-24412807352618520572011-08-10T09:28:08.281+03:002011-08-10T09:28:08.281+03:00Ben Torah said...
Rav Eliashev, in none of hi...Ben Torah said...<br /><br /> Rav Eliashev, in none of his teshuvos on the issue, makes any distinction whether contemporary American or other secular laws consider a case to be mandatory reporting.<br />=====================<br />Why don't you acknowledge that you were wrong?<br /><br /> I didn't say anything about whether he mentioned contemporary mandated reporting. I said that the basis of his teshuva is the gemora BM 83 where it mentions the issue of mandated reporting and that Rav Eliashiv says that even without mandated reporting tikun olam is sufficient to allow reporting.<br /><br />You have the burden of proof that he doesn't think that secular law requires a person to report - unless given permission by a rabbi.Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-60151534986099523932011-08-10T08:34:34.786+03:002011-08-10T08:34:34.786+03:00Rav Eliashev, in none of his teshuvos on the issue...Rav Eliashev, in none of his teshuvos on the issue, makes any distinction whether contemporary American or other secular laws consider a case to be mandatory reporting.Ben Torahnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-82578494410099472832011-08-10T08:25:28.696+03:002011-08-10T08:25:28.696+03:00Ben Torah said...
Rav Eliashev never brought ...Ben Torah said...<br /><br /> Rav Eliashev never brought up whether a case is or isn't mandated reporting and Rav Eliashev makes no distinction in treating it differently whether it is or isn't mandated reporting under civil law.<br />=====================<br />You are wrong. Rav Eliashiv does in fact distinguish based on whether it is mandated reporting. As I note before he states that the gemora BM(83) is a case of mandated reporting. But that even if it weren't - reporting is permitted because of tikun olam.<br /><br />The Ritva (Bava Metzia 83b) has stated that this order of the king is “if the king says to capture certain criminals, even though the government will judge without witnesses and warning [as required by Torah law] and there is no functioning Sanhedrin [as required by Torah law] – it is still permitted since he is acting as the agent of the king. Since it is the law of the land to execute criminals without the testimony of witnesses and warning - as it states [Shmuel 2’ 1:5-16] that Dovid killed the Amalekite ger who had acceded to Shaul’s request to kill him -the agent of the king is like him.” However according to what has been said, in a matter which is needed for the well being of society (tikun olam), it is not needed to have been ordered to act by the king [in order to act as needed].Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-85278054283874959832011-08-10T07:07:50.188+03:002011-08-10T07:07:50.188+03:00Rav Eliashev never brought up whether a case is or...Rav Eliashev never brought up whether a case is or isn't mandated reporting and Rav Eliashev makes no distinction in treating it differently whether it is or isn't mandated reporting under civil law.Ben Torahnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-86609856948059620782011-08-10T06:30:46.043+03:002011-08-10T06:30:46.043+03:00Ben Torah you are simply not reading what I am pos...Ben Torah you are simply not reading what I am posting and you seem to be unaware of the literature or a pretending that there are no distinctions. There is in fact a significant difference between sexual abuse and physical abuse. The poskim clearly differentiate a case of mandated reporting and one which is not.<br /><br />You can't quote Rav Eliashiv in a case of non-mandated reporting non life threatening abuse and simply say that this is exactly what he would say with mandated reporting when it is life threatening abuse. That is merely your opinion of what he would hold.<br /><br />Mesira is not eliminated merely because you consulted a rabbi. Nor is it necessarily a problem if you don't consult one.Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-49110614772518254122011-08-10T06:21:31.471+03:002011-08-10T06:21:31.471+03:00Ben Torah said...
DT wrote: "that teshuv...Ben Torah said...<br /><br /> DT wrote: "that teshuva is not dealing with mandated reporting and it is not dealing with sexual abuse but rather physical non life threatening abuse. It is not relevant to the topic under discussion..."<br /><br /> Child abuse and sex abuse are the same in regards to this point (of being or not being a physical/life threatening abuse.) <br /><br />================<br />Absolutely not so. See the Nishmas Avraham where he contrasts the views of Rav Eliashiv and the Tzitz Eliezar.Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-35497217263648814082011-08-10T05:31:06.637+03:002011-08-10T05:31:06.637+03:00DT wrote: "that teshuva is not dealing with m...DT wrote: <i>"that teshuva is not dealing with mandated reporting and it is not dealing with sexual abuse but rather physical non life threatening abuse. It is not relevant to the topic under discussion..."</i><br /><br />Child abuse and sex abuse are the same in regards to this point (of being or not being a physical/life threatening abuse.) And Rav Elyashev makes no distinction in any of his teshuvos whether a case is or is not a mandated reporting under secular law.<br /><br /><i>"... He also doesn't say what the purpose of the rabbi is and whether that purpose can be fulfilled by an expert in child abuse..."</i><br /><br />Rav Elyashev specifically says <b>" a talmid chachom who is great in scholarship and fear of heaven."</b> Can't be much clearer than that.<br /><br /><i>...He also doesn't say that a person commits any sins if he doesn't consult with a rabbi first... Nowhere does he say that you can't report abuse when mandated even if a rav tells you not to.</i><br /><br />He says to consult a big rabbi first. Otherwise you may commit mesira, a sin, if you either don't consult or disregard the rabbis instructions.Ben Torahnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-25544077017193373792011-08-10T05:05:10.902+03:002011-08-10T05:05:10.902+03:00Ben Torah said...
Rav Elyashev: "Because...Ben Torah said...<br /><br /> Rav Elyashev: "Because of the complexity of the issue every case needs to be evaluated carefully by a talmid chachom who is great in scholarship and fear of heaven."<br /><br /> There you have it. Rav Elyashev could not have been clearer. You must first consult a Rov to determine if it is permissible to report to the secular authorities.<br />===================<br />that teshuva is not dealing with mandated reporting and it is not dealing with sexual abuse but rather physical non life threatening abuse. It is not relevant to the topic under discussion. He also doesn't say what the purpose of the rabbi is and whether that purpose can be fulfilled by an expert in child abuse. He also doesn't say that a person commits any sins if he doesn't consult with a rabbi firstDaas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-90054891258669021452011-08-10T04:59:38.203+03:002011-08-10T04:59:38.203+03:00Dovid said...
Nowhere in any of Rav Elyashev&...Dovid said...<br /><br /> Nowhere in any of Rav Elyashev's applicable teshuvos does he say one needn't ask a rov.<br />================================<br />Nowhere does he say that you can't report abuse when mandated even if a rav tells you not to.Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-37846501055387504892011-08-10T04:38:39.779+03:002011-08-10T04:38:39.779+03:00Nowhere in any of Rav Elyashev's applicable te...Nowhere in any of Rav Elyashev's applicable teshuvos does he say one needn't ask a rov.Dovidnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-28035315005243301002011-08-09T23:03:12.174+03:002011-08-09T23:03:12.174+03:00What is going on here, why are so many words being...What is going on here, why are so many words being used? <br /><br />If a child is being molested and the parents know it, they should call the police. This does not take a posek or rocket scientist to figure out because it is no different to the child being mugged or robbed.Recipients and Publicitynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-64939854724424783982011-08-09T06:34:43.089+03:002011-08-09T06:34:43.089+03:00Rav Elyashev: "Because of the complexity of t...Rav Elyashev: <b><i>"Because of the complexity of the issue every case needs to be evaluated carefully by a talmid chachom who is great in scholarship and fear of heaven."</i></b><br /><br />There you have it. Rav Elyashev could not have been clearer. You must first consult a Rov to determine if it is permissible to report to the secular authorities.Ben Torahnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-76671276368610800082011-08-08T22:56:05.095+03:002011-08-08T22:56:05.095+03:00Rav Wosner (Shevet HaLevi 2:58): … Concerning the ...Rav Wosner (Shevet HaLevi 2:58): … Concerning the issue of reporting the tax cheat to the government see Bava Metzia (83b) concerning R’ Eliezer the son of Rav Shimon bar Yochai. The gemora reports that he reported thieves to the government. This is proof that where the government has authorized a Jew to report thieves that it is permitted. Even though he was criticized “how long are you handing the people of our G d to be killed” – because the punishment for thieves in those days was death. This is relevant also for a similar criticism from Eliyahu Hanavi to R’ Yishmael which is reported in that gemora. However the actual halacha seems that even when it results in the death penalty it is considered “the law of the land is the law.” See the Ritva on that gemora which is found in the Shita Mekubetzes. …Also look at the Responsa of the Alshech who states that a person is not considered an informant for those things required by the law of the land….It is also obvious that this is not comparable to the case of R’ Eleazar ben R’ Shimon (Bava Metzia 83a) which involved danger to the person arrested. In contrast in our case here when they will just punish the person arrested and there is never a threat to life.Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-83550576824303648812011-08-08T22:18:28.834+03:002011-08-08T22:18:28.834+03:00Daas said...
In other words, Rav Moshe never ...Daas said...<br /><br /> In other words, Rav Moshe never said a mandated reporter must report.<br /><br /> August 8, 2011 2:56 PM<br /> Delete<br />Anonymous Daas said...<br /><br /> The teshuva doesn't even say a mandated reporter may necessarily report.<br />===================<br /><br />Daas you seem to have trouble reading. Rav Moshe said don't bring a proof that you should report from R eliezer since that was mandated reporting. If you remember the gemora when R Yosse gave the excuse for reporting as being mandated he was asked by Eliyahu why don't you run away so that you aren't required to report. This gemora from which Rav Moshe and Rav Eliashiv bring a proof clearly indicates that one needs to comply with mandated reporting and the alternative is to run away to another country.<br /><br />Rav Eliashiv also says, that he doesn't need mandated reporting as a reason to report abuse since tikun olam alone is enough. Which implies that if it were mandated that it would be required even if it weren't tikun olam.<br /><br />You might also want to see Rav Wosner's discussion of the necessity of obeying laws of the country.<br />==============<br />Bava Metzia (83b): R’ Eleazar the son of R’ Shimon once met a Roman official who job was to catch thieves. He asked him what he was looking for? … He suggested that perhaps the Roman official caught innocent people and let the guilty escape. The Roman official said he did the best he could but he was required by the kings command to catch thieves. R’ Eleazar told him how to catch thieves. R’ Eleazar told him to go into a tavern at the fourth hour of the day. “If you see a man dozing over a cup of wine you should asked him what his profession is. If he is a scholar than you can assume that he woke very early for his studies. If it is a worker than he must have gotten up early to do his work… If he doesn’t have these excuses for being tired than you should arrest because he is a thief.” The Roman government heard about this conversation and they decided that since R’ Eleazar had such good advice he should be given the job of catching thieves and he was duly appointed to the task. R’ Yehoshua ben Karcha was upset with R’ Eleazar and sent him a message, “Vinegar son of wine how much longer are you going to deliver the people of our G d to be killed?” R’ Eleazar replied, “I am just weeding the thorns from the vineyard.” R’ Yehoshua replied, “Let the owner of the vineyard himself [G d] come and weed out the thorns.” One day he met a certain laundryman who called R’ Eleazar, “Vinegar son of wine.” R’ Eleazar said that since he is so rude he must be a wicked person so he gave the order to arrest him. After R’ Eleazar had calmed down he went to have the laundryman released from jail – but he was not able….Then the Romans hanged the laundryman and R’ Eleazar stood under the gallows and wept. His students told him not to be upset by the laundryman’s death because he and his son had sexual intercourse with a betrothed maiden on Yom Kippur…. A similar thing happened to R’ Yishmael the son of R’ Yosse. One day Eliyahu met him and criticized him. “How long will you hand over the people of our G-d to execution?” R’ Yishmael replied, “What can I do since the king has ordered me to do it?” Eliyahu replied, “Your father fled to Asia so why don’t you flee to Ludkiah?”Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.com