tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post8454888635762831527..comments2024-03-28T02:08:17.990+02:00Comments on Daas Torah - Issues of Jewish Identity: Seminary Scandal: New letter from American Gedolim praises new spiritual supervisors of the 4 seminariesDaas Torahhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comBlogger75125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-82579759621419198552014-08-31T20:44:57.053+03:002014-08-31T20:44:57.053+03:00"Kishkeyum says that "i know " and ..."Kishkeyum says that "i know " and "I was in touch" meaning that you have nothing to add but your word"<br /><br />Just as you do. It's laughable that you demand "proof" while providing none yourself. (Not that you every could, since you are prone to creative "fleshing out" of the facts.)<br /><br />"do not be excited if your rebuttals are not immediately commented on."<br /><br /><br />Your falsehoods do not excite me. They disgust me. Feel free to stay away as long as you wish.kishkeyumnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-24636817815351003332014-08-31T20:28:22.202+03:002014-08-31T20:28:22.202+03:00this letter was just sent all Chedvas parents, in ...this letter was just sent all Chedvas parents, in Hebrew and English, along with the announcement that Rebbetzin Blimi Birnbaum is the overall Menaheles Ruchanipuzzled parentnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-56288137344180988752014-08-31T19:58:03.497+03:002014-08-31T19:58:03.497+03:00Absolutely untrue.
For example, Rav Dovid Fenste...Absolutely untrue.<br /><br /><br />For example, Rav Dovid Fenstein was on the Torah Umesorah RAb before he was on the Agudah Moetzes, and Rav Yosef Frankel is on the Agudah Moetzes but not on TU's RAB. <br /><br /><br />This is nothing new, the Rebbes of Bluzhev and Boston were on the Agudah Moetzes, but not on the TU RAB.Ari Bnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-21643806502250173622014-08-31T19:02:44.170+03:002014-08-31T19:02:44.170+03:00The moetzet never issThe moetzet never issMiMedinat_HaYamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-50646316081644193002014-08-31T18:56:49.845+03:002014-08-31T18:56:49.845+03:00To both honesty and kishkeyum - you have added not...To both honesty and kishkeyum - you have added nothing to your previous posts so there ls little to respond to. Kishkeyum says that "i know " and "I was in touch" meaning that you have nothing to add but your word (which i do not believe) so i will stand by my assertions and let reasonable people make their own determinations.<br /><br /><br />Ask to "honesty" - your classic snarky comnetys toAvrahamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-14030291004944889152014-08-31T18:45:25.844+03:002014-08-31T18:45:25.844+03:00I certainly challenge your libelous insinuation th...I certainly challenge your libelous insinuation that these gedolim have a "troubling track record".Moe Ginsburgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-76982716545292840282014-08-31T16:53:36.603+03:002014-08-31T16:53:36.603+03:00I am puzzled by your response and your obseesion w...I am puzzled by your response and your obseesion with the CBD. I merely noted that there have been many claims on the IBD's behalf but no statement from them. They wrote a psak but did not mention any of the steps indicated by their defenders. If other steps are being takne or have been takne why not mention them in an official letter?<br /><br /><br />In terms of my contacts - i did not say that i was guessing but rather that I was protecting my sources. I made a logical point about how much easier it is to establish my position than the oppossing one without the various posters being in direct contact with RAF or the seminaries and that remains correct.<br /><br /><br />Regarding the last point: The announcement of the five gedolim was trumpeted as a great accomplishment as the new rabbanim would be providing supervision etc. Sadly direct contact with members of the rabbanim revealed what they thought their role was to be and it had nothing to do iwith supervising the seminaries. I believe the rabbanim themselves and sadly lament that given the troubling track record of the five gedolim ( a point I note with profound sadness but which you have not challenged when I brought it up earleir ) I do not have confidence that they wil now put a better system in place.Avrahamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-29584190442922795612014-08-31T16:48:05.468+03:002014-08-31T16:48:05.468+03:00Mealy-mouthed BS. If the CBD were acting in good f...Mealy-mouthed BS. If the CBD were acting in good faith as an actual BD, you might be right. But they are not. They are acting as Chicago gangsters. Such people need to be defeated.kishkeyumnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-27527783171345316532014-08-31T16:46:43.664+03:002014-08-31T16:46:43.664+03:00You can stand by your lie all you please; it remai...You can stand by your lie all you please; it remains a lie. You challenge me to "prove" I'm correct? Why? Have you offered proof of your position? Not exactly.<br /><br />In any case, I was in touch with the people who were actually visiting the gedolim who signed. I know who they visited, and when and why. I know there was never an attempt or any interest in signing up the whole Moetzes. The gedolim they spoke to were well-aware of the issues, and the details. You are engaging in your usual "fleshing out" of the truth. In other words, lying.kishkeyumnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-20683610156137168292014-08-31T16:21:20.923+03:002014-08-31T16:21:20.923+03:00Are you calling them liars or perhaps not as wise ...<em>Are you calling them liars or perhaps not as wise as you are?!</em><br /><br /><br />Well, they reveal their names and their exact credentials. "Avraham" claims to have 25 years experience as a "rav" and "mechanach", but is hiding those supposed credentials. For sure, for-sure this must make him wiser and and more righteous than them. <br />(The fact that four of the five signatories each have at least fifty! years of experience - twice of what "Avraham" anonymously claims to have - certainly escapes him.)Honestynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-6834076892806126302014-08-31T15:11:59.402+03:002014-08-31T15:11:59.402+03:00@Avraham - I have one simple question for you. Why...@Avraham - I have one simple question for you. Why are you demanding a greater stanard of openess from the IBD than you are with the CBD?<br /><br />Your comment about your contacts - simply reveals that you don't have a definitive answer but are guessing based on inferences. Not helpful<br /><br />Finally the issue of the structure of supervision and the role of the IBD and the vaad haChinuch as well as Reb Birnbaum - has not been explicated and yet you in your great wisdom proclaim it meaningless.<br />Just state that you don't know what it is. The 5 gedolim who signed clearly think that it is a meaningulf addition to the seminaries. Are you calling them liars or perhaps not as wise as you are?!Daas Torahhttp://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-14529061944840645652014-08-31T14:48:59.056+03:002014-08-31T14:48:59.056+03:00To both David and Moe I ask you a simple question:...To both David and Moe I ask you a simple question: RDE has been quick to post numeorus communications from the IBD (or from people on their behalf) and yet none of us have seen one letter indicating they have adopted new protocols or made any staff changes, so why should any one believe that those have occurred? To David I add that there have been no expressions on their behalf to the victims either; which you shouldn't worry about anyway because you claim in the same post that there were no victims. <br /><br /><br />Regarding your other points; i obviously have no desire to reveal my contacts having seen the desperate attempts to attack or reveal identities of anyone who dares disagree with your position. On the other hand isn't it strange that the five gedolim happen to be on the Moetzes but they are not the full group . Why were these five people asked and no others? How would any of the people posting be able to know that this is the case (that they were the only ones contacted) without having spoken to either RAF or one of the people running the seminary? I need to only have contacts with at least one gadol who was asked to sign but didn't, or know one loose lipped family member of the seminary owners who described the initial plan to know that i am correct. <br /><br /><br />Finally, when you acknowledge that these gedolim are not providing any new oversight that you are admitting that the great excitement of their appointment is meaningless.Avrahamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-75517597805695314912014-08-31T10:51:54.091+03:002014-08-31T10:51:54.091+03:00It is correct and the duty of all to insure that a...It is correct and the duty of all to insure that a fellow Jew does not lose their job over unfair allegations. So kudos to RAF if that is one of his objectives.<br /><br /><br />About the victims, no information has been released whether they are victims or were consenting adults making both parties culpable under Jewish law. And no information has been definitively released or even claimed that any activity would constitute a crime under secular law.Davidnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-32360999779651265902014-08-31T10:36:23.172+03:002014-08-31T10:36:23.172+03:00Avraham, how do you come here demanding they prove...Avraham, how do you come here demanding they prove their correctness and name their sources when you are the one who initiated claims to have spoken to anonymous sources and yourself have not proven your correctness or named your alleged sources?Moe Ginsburgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-31999898933913150232014-08-31T05:25:30.959+03:002014-08-31T05:25:30.959+03:00To both Ari B. and kishkeyum I stand by my asserti...To both Ari B. and kishkeyum I stand by my assertions and I challenge you both to prove that you are correct. Whom did you speak to that said that these were the only gedolim contacted to sign the letter? <br /><br /><br />Sadly merely asserting the wisdom of the gedolim is not quite an answer to the cases i brought up that showed clearly where they failed. I wish it were otherwise but those are the tragic facts. If you have anything to say regarding those cases please share them with me. <br /><br /><br />As to the new rabbanim roles vis a vis the IBD that is truly puzzling. I was wondering how these three distinguished chachomim would monitor the seminaries when they have no experience in chinuch habanos and have other responsibilities.So after doing some research I uncovered the answer. They were not asked to play that role what so ever. They merely agreed to answer shailos as they come up. So the idea that these rabbanim would provide any layer of oversight was simply disingenuous.Avrahamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-60595663915548120612014-08-31T05:14:46.174+03:002014-08-31T05:14:46.174+03:00Once again, nice try but not correct. I have not b...Once again, nice try but not correct. I have not back tracked or changed from my original assertions. Here is my initial statement regarding RAF "He wanted to save the seminaries and protect the jobs of staff members and that is still his objective. " My further explanation is entirely consistent with that claim. Please show me differently. <br /><br /><br />I have seen you post multiple times and know that you have been following this issue intently. As such when dealing with the RICO component I told you to go back to those discussions rather than waste my time rehashing old arguments. I also noted the key point of the matter just to make sure that the item was addressed. It is unfortunate that you did not understand my answer.<br /><br /><br />Finally, we have the classic "kol haposel b'mumo posel". I have offered to share with RDE (offline) my information to verify that I am a rav and mechanech of 25 years that is not connected, in any way, to the CBD, IBD, Miesels or any of the individuals connected to this case. Can you do the same? <br /><br /><br />Yes, the issue of sexual abuse in the frum world is an issue that I take very personally as should every one in our community. We have seen too many cover ups in this area for way too long. I have criticized the IBD for not writing once about the victims and that same critique applies to this new psak as well. I have never talked once about winning - that was the exact complaint that iI made to RDE - so it a sad commentary on your position for you to try to tar me with that brush. Please quote one statement that you have made showing any compassion for the victims of that mushchas. Who do you really care about?Avrahamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-86693956505768082722014-08-29T21:57:42.876+03:002014-08-29T21:57:42.876+03:00"I know from direct conversations with both p..."I know from direct conversations with both people associated with the <br />seminaries and members of the Moetzes that this was the goal (to get the<br /> whole Moetzes on board) and that was unsuccessful."<br /><br />A lie. No such effort was made.kishkeyumnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-58645850538226846432014-08-29T21:35:27.637+03:002014-08-29T21:35:27.637+03:00I"m shocked. Shocked.
A dayan recused hims...I"m shocked. Shocked.<br /><br />A dayan recused himself fro a case<br /><br />The av bet din of the CBD never excuse s himself from a case.MiMedinat_HaYamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-38601970662857186312014-08-29T19:42:52.929+03:002014-08-29T19:42:52.929+03:00I don't know him to ask him. I also don't ...I don't know him to ask him. I also don't have kids who are going to seminary. I also am not a fan of seminaries. I also don't care enough about this scandal. I assume, that wherever I leave my daughter, or wife for that matter, unattended, with whomever, regardless of rabbinic stature, that they will at the LEAST flirt with her/them. Ayn aputropus learayos!! That is why I don't leave them with men unattended !!!! I am shocked at the level of shock in this case. What did you expect ???Asher pihem diber shavnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-45192632817448958832014-08-29T18:46:57.140+03:002014-08-29T18:46:57.140+03:00The fact that you write about the "defeat&quo...The fact that you write about the "defeat" of a Bet Din as if this was a sporting contest or an election is very sad. For many of us the only question has been the safety of the girls in both physical and spiritual terms. To describe the issue as a contest or a battle reveals how invested you have become. I have no doubt that the involvement of the IBD etc. wiil assist in the physical safety of girlls attending the smeinaries. It does not mean that enough was done or that these are teachers whom girls should be exposed.to. If the environment that allowed Miesels to roam was not accknowledged, let alone changed, that is not a healthy place to send one's daughters.Avrahamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-84744914016002155522014-08-29T18:41:45.796+03:002014-08-29T18:41:45.796+03:00Avrohom: I know from direct conversations with bot...Avrohom: I know from direct conversations with both people associated from all sides that NONE of the other non-signatory Gedolim have looked into this issue in depth and none of them have taken a position one way or the other.<br /><br /><br />ALL the Gedolim that DID look into it and have taken a position one way or another have signed this letter effectively supporting the IBD.<br /><br /><br />As RDE responded to you, the IBD IS still involved and the American Gedolim added an additional layer of oversight.<br /><br /><br />The Gedolim are wiser than you in both halacha and in the ways of the world.Catskills1noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-45266624441936385942014-08-29T18:24:42.709+03:002014-08-29T18:24:42.709+03:001) You clearly backtracked from your original post...1) You clearly backtracked from your original post. You had originally claimed that Rav Feldman was primarily concerned with saving jobs. <br /><br /><br />You then backtracked to say that Rav Feldman was primarily concerned with saving a Torah institution. <br /><br /><br />2) Being that you backtracked on the points I addressed, which point is it you would like me to answer. In fact, others have debunked you quite well. <br /><br /><br />3) This seems to be very personal to you, and you seem to have a deep emotional involvement. A tone of care and concern for success of Bnos Yisroel is completely lacking in any of your posts. It seems to be all about "winning" over here. How sick is that?Honestynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-10616018332128956732014-08-29T18:16:19.211+03:002014-08-29T18:16:19.211+03:00The IBD certainly was telling anyone who asked the...The IBD certainly was telling anyone who asked them -- I personally asked on behalf of one young lady -- that it did NOT mean what you assert they implied.Ari Bnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-50255854475124665822014-08-29T18:10:43.994+03:002014-08-29T18:10:43.994+03:00As you have noted previously, you may choose to be...As you have noted previously, you may choose to believe what you will, but don;t post it as fact (like your various flip-flops reagrding you "fleshing-out" of teh CBD's claims)<br />I happen to know from people "on the inside" that both 1 and 2 are untrue.Ari Bnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-51298822811078492702014-08-29T17:58:13.828+03:002014-08-29T17:58:13.828+03:00@Avraham - contrary to your assertion the IBD is ...@Avraham - contrary to your assertion the IBD is still in the picture. also contrary to your words the IBD and the involvement of the 5 American gedolim have added significant protection and safety of seminary students. The letter from the 5 American gedolim - even without the signatures of the whole Moetzes - represents the defeat of the CBD is this matter.Daas Torahhttp://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/noreply@blogger.com