tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post7895883739103693382..comments2024-03-28T02:08:17.990+02:00Comments on Daas Torah - Issues of Jewish Identity: R' Klein - Abusers don't threaten societyDaas Torahhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comBlogger37125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-43201977938802628952011-07-11T10:58:59.929+03:002011-07-11T10:58:59.929+03:00http://galusaustralis.com/2011/07/4749/nowhere-lef...http://galusaustralis.com/2011/07/4749/nowhere-left-to-hide/david segalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15445831935653632077noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-90074423090325839752009-06-08T04:50:22.928+03:002009-06-08T04:50:22.928+03:00R' Eidensohn,
Ich farshtay.
Yasher koach for...R' Eidensohn,<br /><br />Ich farshtay.<br /><br />Yasher koach for putting in a clear & brief comparison of the two approaches.Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13407460404034430042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-18587110183543468262009-06-08T03:13:23.628+03:002009-06-08T03:13:23.628+03:00Yosef - we are dealing with two different principl...Yosef - we are dealing with two different principles of halacha<br /><br />Rav Klein is following the straight din of Torah which requires two kosher witnesses. <br /><br />Rav Eliashiv is consistently utilizing a totally different principle which is elucidated in simon 2 of Choshen Mishpat - which is based on tikun olam as expressed by Bava Metzia 83. His sole restriction is that the evidence has to be clear. That clarifty is not defined as limited to two witnesses as Rav Klein requires. It could be a single witness or very clear circumstantial evidence or even the testimony of a child or woman.<br /><br />Both agree that where the evidence is not clear - according to Rav Klein because there are not two witnesses or with Eliashiv because the circumstantial evidence lends itself to alternative explanation - than one can not call the police.<br /><br />Other poskim utlize the principle of rodef - which does not require two witnesses - but it does require that you see with your own eyes that a crime is about to be committed of killing someone or sexual sin involving kares or misus beis din. Rav Klein argues that if the guiding principle is the Torah law of rodef - then one can only do the minimum necessary to stop that crime. That does not involve necessarily involve calling the police. Thus Rav Klein is upset with the poskim who utilize the principle of rodef in a way which is not justified. Rodef also only works if it is before the crime is committed but not afterwards - unless it is clear that the perpetrator has a history of these crimes or has said he plans to do it again.<br /><br />In sum, Rav Klein is taking a very conservative position which indicates that he see no emergency which requires ignoring the Torah laws. Rav Eliashiv and most other poskim agree that these cases require utilizing principles such as tikun olam because of the devastating nature these crimes have on society.Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-3339666253407256492009-06-08T02:46:51.317+03:002009-06-08T02:46:51.317+03:00mekubal,
huh???
I merely provided you a verbatim...mekubal,<br /><br />huh???<br /><br />I merely provided you a verbatim quote of Rav Eliashev shlita's psak, in my previous comment to you, without any commentary from myself. (And the psak of Rav Eliashev I quoted had nothing to do with suicidal threats.)<br /><br />I cannot add any more to the conversation other than say sorry that you didn't like Rav Eliashev shlita's psak.Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13407460404034430042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-90558252154061729992009-06-08T02:21:52.591+03:002009-06-08T02:21:52.591+03:00Yes and that certainty can be reached through circ...Yes and that certainty can be reached through circumstantial evidence. As this psak<br />http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2009/06/rav-eliashiv-abused-child-vs-suicidal.html<br />shows.<br /><br />You will note that his only reason for not contacting the authorities and having the child removed from the mother here, is on account of her suicide threats, and thus the need to balance pikuach nefesh.<br /><br />However, you will also note that if the child says she is being abused and requests to be removed that also changes the circumstances.<br /><br />Sorry Joseph any way you try to bend it R' Eliashiv does not agree with you.Rabbi Michael Tzadokhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02307256653501750003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-87137851108383154112009-06-08T01:07:38.009+03:002009-06-08T01:07:38.009+03:00if my parents had waited around for "proof&qu...if my parents had waited around for "proof" in the sense that you are saying, you know what would have happened one fine day before pesach ten years ago? i would have most likely been raped, possibly pregnant. THIS IS WHY CHILDREN MUST BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY! thank God, my parents took me seriously when i called for help. otherwise...who knows where i'd be today. most likely, not a frum girl who is trying to help others in similar positions.little sheephttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01002942154389258717noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-85256002585540139342009-06-07T23:15:35.658+03:002009-06-07T23:15:35.658+03:00LazerA,
I've been trying to communicate much ...LazerA,<br /><br />I've been trying to communicate much of the same point above.<br /><br />Thank YouJosephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13407460404034430042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-78616912670090561842009-06-07T23:13:27.171+03:002009-06-07T23:13:27.171+03:00Again, directly quoted from Psak Rav Eliashev shli...Again, directly quoted from Psak Rav Eliashev shlita:<br /><br />However, it is permitted to notify the government authorities <b>ONLY</b> in the case which it is <b>CERTAIN</b> that the accused has been sexually abusing children... However in a case where there is no <b>PROOF</b> that this activity is happening... I do not see any justification for calling the authorities in such circumstances.Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13407460404034430042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-4173200878568836012009-06-07T23:11:37.875+03:002009-06-07T23:11:37.875+03:00There is an immense literature on false memory syn...There is an immense literature on false memory syndrome. For the casual reader, I would suggect <i>The Demon-Haunted World</i> by Carl Sagan. Sagan connects the phenomenon with the closely associated issue of accusations of "Satan-worship" (there was a rash of these accusations in the 80s and 90s - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day_care_sex_abuse_hysteria). (He also demonstrates that both of these phenomena are related to claims of alien abduction.)<br /><br />In trial settings, prosecutors would carefully control childrens' testimonies (often given by video) to omit the more bizarre and implausible accusations (such as ritual sacrifice) so that the testimonies would be accepted by juries.<br /><br />One critical aspect of this phenomenon is that the accusations were frequently made by multiple children.LazerAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10463856909521693296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-20615011170144820522009-06-07T23:06:53.226+03:002009-06-07T23:06:53.226+03:00As a PS
If you look at the comments here
http://d...As a PS<br /><br />If you look at the comments here<br />http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2009/02/sexual-molestation-is-absolutely.html<br />You will see R' Eidensohn and I hashing out the exact meaning of R' Eliyashiv's words.Rabbi Michael Tzadokhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02307256653501750003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-32612116913482855432009-06-07T22:54:52.721+03:002009-06-07T22:54:52.721+03:00NO! He concluded that one should call the authori...NO! He concluded that one should call the authorities if there is reasonable evidence that abuse is occuring. <br /><br />It is when there is significant reason to believe that the child is acting out of spite that he concluded that the authorities should not be called.<br /><br />I did not quote the Rashba, I quoted Siman 2 of Choshen Mishpat. If you see the Rama there, you will find that the cities finest citizens are also equal to a Beis Din.<br /><br />I am beginning to think that either you have a reading comprehension problem or that you intentionally are trying to misunderstand these texts.Rabbi Michael Tzadokhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02307256653501750003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-2964939177407477602009-06-07T21:53:07.599+03:002009-06-07T21:53:07.599+03:00You may have overlooked the very first 3 words in ...You may have overlooked the very first 3 words in the Rashba you quoted:<br /><br />"Any <b>Beis Din</b>"<br /><br />(and "Such powers, however, rest only with the greatest Torah authority of the generation...")<br /><br />So under any circumstance you must have first have the unambiguous impetus of Beis Din.<br /><br />Additionally Rav Eliashev shlita (perhaps the greatest sage of our generation) as quoted directly above in his psak (translated by R. Eidensohn) concluded that the secular authorities could <b>NOT</b> be notified.Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13407460404034430042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-37441506552320474122009-06-07T21:28:20.696+03:002009-06-07T21:28:20.696+03:00The Rashba is in part the source of the halakha fo...The Rashba is in part the source of the halakha found in the second siman of Choshen Mishpat of the Shulchan Aruch.<br /><br /><b>Any Beis Din (1) [1], even one whose judges lack semicha attained in the Land of Israel [2], if it sees the nation wantonly sinning (2) [3] (and emergency measures are necessary) (Tur), it can punish with death, monetary measures [4] or other means of punishment, even in the absence (3) [5] actual eidus[6]. If the accused is strong and violent, the court can call in non-Jews to beat him [7]. (The courts also have the power to divest people of their property [8], or destroy belongings, as the judges see fit as essential temporary measures to control the generation) (Tur in the name of<br />the Rambam, Laws of Sanhedrin Chap. 24). All of their actions must be for the sake of Heaven. Such powers, however, rest only with the greatest Torah authority of the generation, or with a city’s finest citizens [9] when the<br />community appoints them over them as a court. <i>Rama: Such is the custom everywhere [10] – that in their own city, a city’s finest citizens are like the greatest Beis Din, giving lashes and other punishments, and divesting people of belongings (making their property hefker -- ownerless), according to the custom.</i></b><br /><br />To which the Sm"a S"K 8:<br /><b><i>AND EVEN WITHOUT PROPER EIDUS</i> This also includes without giving warning. Thus without warning and without eidus they are able to judge Torah laws, but for someone who trangesses the laws of the secular government they are able to do as they see fit at that time. This is the proper way to understand the teshuvot of the Rashba 3:393 and Ramban 379.</b><br /><br />As Rav Eliyashiv is quoting this Rashba it is essential to have the proper understanding, and as the Shulchan Aruch thus tells us the proper understanding, we must understand R' Eliyashiv's words accordingly.<br /><br />Thus we have these differences:<br /><b>Rabbi Klein</b> Child abuse does not require tikun olam.<br /><b>MaRan Eliyashiv</b> Child abuse does require tikun olam.<br /><b>Rabbi Klein</b> Halakhic eidus of two shomer mitvot males is needed.<br /><b>MaRan Eliyashiv</b> True eidus is not needed, circumstantial evidence and other convincing factors suffice.<br /><b>Rabbi Klein</b> The laws of the land do not factor.<br /><b>MaRan Eliyashiv</b> The laws of the land are a factor.<br /><b>Rabbi Klein</b> We are forbidden to hand a person over to the secular authorities even with proper eidus.<br /><b>MaRan Eliyashiv</b> We are required to hand the offender over to the secular authorities even without proper eidus.<br /><b>Rabbi Klein</b> A B"D cannot hear such a case without proper eidus as it would be Motzei Shem Ra<br /><b>MaRan Eliyashiv</b> A B"D is required to hear such cases even without proper eidus to determine if a crime has been comitted in order to properly act.<br /><br />Quite simply I don't think their opinions can be much more at odds.Rabbi Michael Tzadokhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02307256653501750003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-31573768387631267642009-06-07T13:45:22.346+03:002009-06-07T13:45:22.346+03:00Rav Klein's psak refers to a passage by Dr. Ab...Rav Klein's psak refers to a passage by Dr. Abraham in Nishmas Avraham quoting Prof. Sofer quoting Rav Eliashev's psak. So let us go to directly to the source rather than third or fourth-hand citations.<br /><br />http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2008/11/child-abuse-callling-police-harav.html<br /><br />From Rav Eliashev's psak:<br /><br />Rashba: "My view is that <b>if the witnesses are believed by the judges, then</b> it is permitted to punish the accused financially or physically depending upon what the judges think is appropriate to be beneficial to society."<br />...<br />Rav Eliashev: However, it is permitted to notify the government authorities <b>only in the case which it is certain</b> that the accused has been sexually abusing children.<br />...<br />However <b>in a case where there is no proof</b> that this activity is happening<br />...<br />I do not see any justification for calling the authorities in such circumstances.Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13407460404034430042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-68107353775593753112009-06-07T09:39:43.378+03:002009-06-07T09:39:43.378+03:00Joseph if you go to the original post and read R&#...Joseph if you go to the original post and read R' Klein's teshuva, on the very first page you will see that he admits to taking issue with all of these Rabbis and not bothering to read their teshuvot.Rabbi Michael Tzadokhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02307256653501750003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-61468587805867600542009-06-05T16:54:50.153+03:002009-06-05T16:54:50.153+03:00Please direct me to an authoritative full quote te...Please direct me to an authoritative <b>full quote</b> text of Rav Miller zt'l, Rav Eliyashev shlita, and the other mentioned Gedolim's statements.Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13407460404034430042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-20167239533979225992009-06-05T15:58:14.315+03:002009-06-05T15:58:14.315+03:00Or Rav Ovadiah Yosef, or Rav S.Z. Auerbach or Rav....Or Rav Ovadiah Yosef, or Rav S.Z. Auerbach or Rav....<br /><br />The list goes on of Rabbanim and Gedolim that have opposed the position taken by Rabbi Klein. <br /><br />In Joseph's defense Rabbi Klein is a Gadol in his own right and thus Joseph can hold by him.Rabbi Michael Tzadokhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02307256653501750003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-39829674176001736872009-06-05T15:28:28.694+03:002009-06-05T15:28:28.694+03:00Joseph, if you were provided a tape of the shiur w...Joseph, if you were provided a tape of the shiur would you change your opinion onthese matters? Its not enough what Rav Eliyashiv said?modern chassidishhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05317671441837837667noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-16605701056313102072009-06-04T23:22:55.313+03:002009-06-04T23:22:55.313+03:00"At a conference of rabbanim regarding child ...<i>"At a conference of rabbanim regarding child abuse, Rav Avigdor Miller zt"l STATED that children must be BELIEVED, when reporting abuse"</i><br /><br />What was Rav Miller's precise words (full quote)? Where is it documented?Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13407460404034430042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-3290490748411363642009-06-04T18:06:14.487+03:002009-06-04T18:06:14.487+03:00"it would appear obvious whose position is no..."it would appear obvious whose position is not the true Torah position". ----- The beauty of Halacha is that there can be two or even more torah true positions.<br /><br />"is the FACT that children have been shown to have vivid imaginations"<br />At a conference of rabbanim regarding child abuse, Rav Avigdor Miller zt"l STATED that children must be BELIEVED, when reporting abuse.tzipschumnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-60331236599326532142009-06-04T10:02:18.484+03:002009-06-04T10:02:18.484+03:00R' Klein definitely knows of those Gemorrahs. ...R' Klein definitely knows of those Gemorrahs. As I am certain that he knows of the many places and instances where less than 2 Halakhic eidim are accepted, such as eidus nashim, and eidus katanim. What he is saying, between the lines, is that abuse, of any type, does not pose as much of a threat to society or do as much damage to the individual. Which is part of what I find frightening.<br /><br />Take the specific halakhot of hasgacha over kosher food. In such instances we trust katanim and nashim. The witness of a single child or woman, al pi halacha, is enough to render food un-kosher and to, in today's world, strip an establishment of its hescher and ruin its reputation.<br /><br />Apparently abuse, in his estimation, rates as a lower threat to both individuals and society than the possibility of a person unknowingly eating treif. To me that is very disturbing.Rabbi Michael Tzadokhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02307256653501750003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-2153479486215215242009-06-04T01:09:05.157+03:002009-06-04T01:09:05.157+03:00Um, has this R Klein ever read about how the Rabba...Um, has this R Klein ever read about how the Rabbanim used to imprison people that they knew were murderers, but there was no hasra or eidim and feed them barely until their stomachs exploded? Is he aware of that? Or how the king has the right to punish people as he sees fit. Or the fact that chazal were able to give lashes when they saw fit? Is he aware of any of these gemorahs? <br /><br />Also, according to him, if only one person saw a murder and all the evidence points to this guy being a mrderer, heck even if he is on video tape, we should treat him like a regular Jew?? What is Rabbi Klein talking about?E-Manhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06327848648278849664noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-4473471972260894282009-06-04T00:42:11.383+03:002009-06-04T00:42:11.383+03:00I wouldn't call S.Z. Auerbach, Sho'el UMas...I wouldn't call S.Z. Auerbach, Sho'el UMashiv, Rema, Shach, R' Eliashiv, R' Moshe Halberstam, Tzitz Eliezer, R' Ovadiah Yosef, and Minchas Yitzchok, the other side. They are Gedolei Yisrael. Rather we have one posek going against them. Who admittedly didn't read their works as to why they ruled the way they did.Rabbi Michael Tzadokhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02307256653501750003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-1999477214482207982009-06-04T00:15:36.903+03:002009-06-04T00:15:36.903+03:00"This is precisely in line with the Torah and..."This is precisely in line with the Torah and the Gedolim. "<br /><br />What about Rav Eliyashiv? <br /><br />Does Rabbi Menashe Klein have a monopoly on Torah?<br /><br />Please define "Torah" and "Gedolim"modern chassidishhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05317671441837837667noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-69311231925184265722009-06-04T00:11:42.906+03:002009-06-04T00:11:42.906+03:00Just to clarify - I'm not trying to voice my o...Just to clarify - I'm not trying to voice <i>my own</i> opinion one way or the other. But I am voicing strong points on behalf of Gedolim, such as expressed in the original post here, that is very infrequently voiced in the blogosphere.Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13407460404034430042noreply@blogger.com