tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post7377269608068308852..comments2024-03-29T12:21:24.976+03:00Comments on Daas Torah - Issues of Jewish Identity: Science Increasingly Makes the Case for GodDaas Torahhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-45092823364127550602015-01-05T00:46:45.514+02:002015-01-05T00:46:45.514+02:00Don't know if the first part of my reply was l...Don't know if the first part of my reply was lost in the ether - I hope not. Anyway, to address your last point of the Rambam choosing to accept a minority view because it is more logical - this is not the Rambam's invention, it comes from the Gemara (Nidda 49a):<br /><br />פשיטא יחיד ורבים הלכה כרבים מהו דתימא מסתברא טעמא דר''מ דקא מסייע ליה קראי קמ''ל<br /><br />Tosfos in Moed Katan 20a even argues that the rule of following the majority opinion in arguments between the Tannaim has so many exceptions that we can practically follow the majority only when told to do so specifically in this instance:<br /><br />כל מקום שאתה מוצא יחיד מקיל ורבים מחמירין. והוא הדין יחיד מחמיר ורבים מקילין הלכה כרבים ומשום דהכא איירי ביחיד מקיל נקיט הכי <br />וכל מקום לאו דוקא דבהרבה מקומות פוסק כדברי היחיד והיכא דאתמר אתמר<br /><br /><br /><br />Even if we would not adopt this extreme position, the ability to accept the minority opinion when it is more מסתבר (at least for the Rishonim) is definitely mainstream, and has its roots in the Gemara Nidda which I cited.Chaimnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-88043956833051785612015-01-05T00:37:43.872+02:002015-01-05T00:37:43.872+02:00Sorry - I have been away. To be brief:
1. I find...Sorry - I have been away. To be brief:<br /><br /><br />1. I find the whole discussion of the extent of Chazal's scientific knowledge fascinating - both by the relevant sources that nobody seems to quite, and by the oft-repeated sources that are hurled around based on misreading them. Meiselman and Slifkin, whatever you have to say about them, share one quality in common - we all know where they both stand!<br /><br /><br />2. Could you tell me where the Chassam Sofer question's Chazal's knowledge of science? (I'm not saying he doesn't - I just want to know the source.)<br /><br /><br />3. My own position, which I can back up, is that Meiselman's claim that there are NO authentic sources who maintain that Chazal's knowledge of the physical universe was limited, is wrong. (Yes, I have read his book cover to cover.) Slifkin, however, is guilty of going to the other extreme, and tries to find as many "mistakes" in Chazal as he can. He also advocates changing the Halacha based on these "mistakes". Someone who has learnt Torah and Halacha in depth can see the pervasive weakness of argument - and<br /> lack of humility - throughout.his later writings. His "rational judaism" cult bears no resemblance to the Torah thought of ANY accepted authority - including the Rambam. In this Meiselman is spot on.<br /><br /><br />4.I don;t really know what you mean by "logic". Any argument, in any discipline, requires some level of comprehension and analysis. I thought you were referring to <i>methodology</i>. Let's avoid the abstract and deal with the actual examples you give (we'll skip over Kiddush HaChodesh, for the reason you mentioned).<br /><br /><br />5. The Rambam in IB is arguing that a false non-Torah law crept its way into the responsa of some Geonim. What has that got to do with the subject of Chazal's knowledge of the physical world/logic? This is basic case of the Rambam rejecting a Halachic view as being אפיקורסות - a view that does not come from Chazal at all!<br /><br /><br />6. Why do you put speech marks around "minority?The RambamChaimnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-30204723322055489252015-01-01T21:37:21.707+02:002015-01-01T21:37:21.707+02:00in any case, people can make whatever claims they ...in any case, people can make whatever claims they like - for example the Lubavitcher rebbe claimed that the sun really goes around the earth,and tried to "prove" this with reference to Einstein's theory of relativity. Even the frum Physics professor Nathan Aviezer rejected this claim. If he saw some iota of truth in the rebbe's claim, he would have used it in his books, but it is such a false argument that even Aviezer would not use it.Eddienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-61964580507121753902015-01-01T19:15:31.402+02:002015-01-01T19:15:31.402+02:00The Rambam seemed to have no problem recognizing t...The Rambam seemed to have no problem recognizing the limitations of Chazal's knowledge in speculative matters. Note that the Rambam's version of Pesachim 94b differs from our current day more politically correct Gemara version which does not use the word "netzchu" (vanquished).<br /><br /><br /><br />"...in these astronomical matters they (the Jewish Sages) preferred the opinion of the sages of the nations of the world to their own. They explicitly say: The sages of the nations of the world have vanquished (netzchu) the Jewish Sages (Pesachim 94b)." Moreh Nevuchim II:8.TruthSeekerJewnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-74956534344472358862014-12-31T21:53:36.158+02:002014-12-31T21:53:36.158+02:00This is a very important/interesting discussion.
...This is a very important/interesting discussion.<br /><br />1) I would agree with your in a nutshell question, but i would leave the modern controversy out of it. i would much rather have (Rambam, Chatam Sofer) who questioned certain areas of Chazal's expertise in science.<br /><br />2. That is a good lomdisher question. In Kiddush Hachodesh for example, he writes about empirical science, as opposed to logic. In Issurei Biah ch11, the Rambam groups the Geonim together with the Tzedukim - in regards to their interpretation or tradition of dam tahor (after birth) , i.e. the waiting time for a woman to regain her tahorah. I think that would be more logic than science, or at least interpretation.<br />In his letter on Astrology, he takes issue with some "minority" opinions of Chazal on matters regarding astrology. Again, i would argue this is a crossover of science and logic.<br />My final example is from his Intro. to his commentary on the Mishnah. I cannot say he is arguing directly with Chazal, but he does say that sometimes a single opinion can be so clear that it will be powerful enough to overturn or persuade the majority. I do nto know the exact mechanism of hw this works, but it does seem that he endorses arguing with chazal if logic dictatesEddienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-84394421783705278382014-12-31T15:32:42.824+02:002014-12-31T15:32:42.824+02:001. Are you asking - in a nutshell - where I stand ...1. Are you asking - in a nutshell - where I stand on the issue of whether Chazal's scientific knowledge was infallible or not? (Re. Meiselman Slifkin et al.)<br /><br /><br />2. Also, you've piqued my interest - where does the Rambam cite opinions, and endorse them, when they differ with Chazal in matters of <i>logic</i>?Chaimnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-49848217273553399382014-12-31T14:02:23.252+02:002014-12-31T14:02:23.252+02:00Chaim, would you accept this statement in the con...Chaim, would you accept this statement in the context that Rambam uses throughout, especially when he differs from Chazal's (and geonim) views on science and logic?Eddienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-58085402756381661102014-12-30T23:01:34.074+02:002014-12-30T23:01:34.074+02:00וקבל האמת ממי שאמרה (רמב"ם, שמונה פרקים)וקבל האמת ממי שאמרה (רמב"ם, שמונה פרקים)Chaimnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-58997771993167937932014-12-30T21:02:58.559+02:002014-12-30T21:02:58.559+02:00The difficulty with the kind of analysis in this a...The difficulty with the kind of analysis in this article, it seems to me, is the preconception of what "life" is. Well, sure, if someone wants to be parochial, provincial, insular, narrow-minded, sectarian, what have you, and define life as what he sees in the mirror, then, yes, doesn't seem like much out there in the universe at large. Science fiction writers have poked fun at this approach, such as Douglas Adams in "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy", and the Jewish writer Stanislaw Lem in "The Star Diaries". Here is an excerpt from Lem's book that succinctly makes the point:<br />http://english.lem.pl/works/novels/the-star-diaries/103-a-look-inside-the-22nd-voyage<br />In short, Ijon Tichy is on another planet where a scientific explanation is given why life on Earth is an impossibility. When he points out that he is from Earth, he is told that he must be a freak.Joseph Orlownoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-12614428306986140772014-12-30T19:20:12.046+02:002014-12-30T19:20:12.046+02:00Bina is something else (see rashi two weeks ago --...Bina is something else (see rashi two weeks ago --- "ish chacham ve'navon.")MiMedinat_HaYamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-27970568454945235472014-12-30T16:15:03.802+02:002014-12-30T16:15:03.802+02:00Chovos Halevavos and Chosen Yehoshua also discuss ...Chovos Halevavos and Chosen Yehoshua also discuss scientific proofs for creation.Avraham 1noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-23243723518747284762014-12-29T20:42:32.226+02:002014-12-29T20:42:32.226+02:00I sometimes throw out bread for the birds, and it...I sometimes throw out bread for the birds, and it is amazing how intelligent they are, especially the crows. Even insects display intelligence, eg wasps cut leaves and then tuck in their larvae in the leaf cuttings, to protect them. It is difficult for sicentists to give an explanation of this intelligent behaviour. Do the molecules in DNA get together and look at the outside world, and discuss what is the best evolutionary strategy for the organism to take? I think there is a cut off between molecular order and intelligence - sechel, or binah.Eddienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-48581884168434312372014-12-29T20:07:41.890+02:002014-12-29T20:07:41.890+02:00"Probability said that even we shouldn’t be h..."Probability said that even we shouldn’t be here."<br /><br />They could have saved themselves some calculating and just asked me, instead of "Probability". Oh, you can ignore that I said that -- I just woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning.Joseph Orlownoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-25530473379615811952014-12-29T19:57:38.782+02:002014-12-29T19:57:38.782+02:00The author here is only presenting scientific fact...The author here is only presenting scientific facts. What difference does it make what his religion is? If scientists have a refutation of this, let them state it. On the face of it, it's a worthwhile piece of information.FactsofLifenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-54632279878268166782014-12-29T19:55:18.907+02:002014-12-29T19:55:18.907+02:00I once took a special course in space physics at C...I once took a special course in space physics at Columbia's Goddard institute and they said in the course that the atmosphere filters out much of the radiation in the band between infrared and ultraviolet and if the filtration were slightly larger or slightly smaller life on Earth could not exist. This led me to think of the posuk toleh eretz al blimah.FactsofLifenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-22696996845405772822014-12-29T18:11:10.044+02:002014-12-29T18:11:10.044+02:00Why is Judaism increasingly dependent on fundament...Why is Judaism increasingly dependent on fundamental Christains for evidence of G-d? It is no surprise that there is a branch of Christianity that presents this type of article as evidence for G-d. It is not surprise that there are many scientists who strongly disagree. If a scientist presents evidence of G-d, that may be interesting to your readership. But what does a Christian inspirational speaker have to do with Daas Torah?David Sedleynoreply@blogger.com