tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post7333098383392637766..comments2024-03-29T12:21:24.976+03:00Comments on Daas Torah - Issues of Jewish Identity: 'Open Orthodox' or 'Neo Conservative'? by Rabbi PruzanskyDaas Torahhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comBlogger47125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-12719430437829772332018-06-04T00:27:39.691+03:002018-06-04T00:27:39.691+03:00I just read these comments again after several yea...I just read these comments again after several years - very interesting. Seems like an attack on the entire hareidi yeshiva world in America.Eddienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-54047071088321064572014-04-09T17:57:06.368+03:002014-04-09T17:57:06.368+03:00Yes, Chaim, and I don't care much about your c...Yes, Chaim, and I don't care much about your comments either. Suffice to say that both Azazal and Gei-Ben Hinnom are within a short distance of the Old City, and are very this-worldly places!Ben MIkrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07122937371918515052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-62712794988244995612014-04-08T23:35:07.013+03:002014-04-08T23:35:07.013+03:00It was factual, and accurate, and, as you knew and...It was factual, and accurate, and, as you knew and know, completely irrelevant to the thread. It therefore earned the adjective of "not serious". I honestly can't tell if your present question is tongue-in-cheek or not - but who cares?Chaimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05331877663627621320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-49414804789075763552014-04-08T20:50:57.309+03:002014-04-08T20:50:57.309+03:00There was an orthodox rabbi, who was an ilui, he s...There was an orthodox rabbi, who was an ilui, he studied in gateshead Yeshiva, one of his teachers was Rabbi Dessler. He then was touted to become a future Chief rabbi of Great Britain. This Rabbi, lousi jacobs became an apikores, in that he denied the authorship of the Torah. He was kicked out of Jews College in london, and set up a "masorti" congregation, which is like conservative.<br /><br />I have previously avoided any of his books, but i saw some lectures he gave on video.<br />It seems that the Farber rabbi is just repeating all of Jacobs' ideas. <br />I find his arguments unconvincing. Partly because they are also "dogmatic" of his school of thought. Partly, because of his accent, which reminds me of many comedians from Northern England who would tell jokes and speak in cheap nightclubs.Ben MIkrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07122937371918515052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-39022743059037947912014-04-08T18:36:27.267+03:002014-04-08T18:36:27.267+03:00Chaim, what exactly do you have a problem with in ...Chaim, what exactly do you have a problem with in my comment above?<br /><br />It is factual, and it is accurate - unless there is a Jewish settlement there that I was unaware of.Ben MIkrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07122937371918515052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-44768510643061348162014-04-08T00:05:37.448+03:002014-04-08T00:05:37.448+03:00Eddie, the less serious your comments are, the mor...Eddie, the less serious your comments are, the more I enjoy them. The problem is that sometimes I lack the Chochma necessary to determine the earnestness of your comments... your writing has a great poker face!Chaimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05331877663627621320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-24686987133236834222014-04-07T23:21:33.317+03:002014-04-07T23:21:33.317+03:00right now, Gei-ben Hinnom is visible from Ir Hakod...right now, Gei-ben Hinnom is visible from Ir Hakodesh, and is occupied by many Palestinians.<br />Ben MIkrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07122937371918515052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-56894506340821336822014-04-07T22:52:36.063+03:002014-04-07T22:52:36.063+03:00Sorry to surprise you, but the generation of Dispe...Sorry to surprise you, but the generation of Dispersion was indeed destroyed - they lost their Olam HaBo as the Medrash and Rashi point out. In this they were like the Mabul generation. The difference is that they didn't perish in this world, because they were not rampant with theft, adultery and murder. But their rebellion against Hashem lost them their Olam HaBo.<br /><br />So your comparison doesn't stand. Whatever your own virulent anti-Chareidi opinions, they have not rebelled against Hashem; their Next World is intact and glorious. The Open Orthodox's supposed Ahavas HaBrios might save them from a flood, but not מדינה של גיהנם. So I know who I'd "rather hang out with".<br /><br />This is all acc. to your fantasy about love for fellow Jews. But the Torah's opinion is quite different. It tells us in many strong terms to HATE those who attempt to seduce people to defect from Hashem. That is why a מסית is killed, and we are to have no mercy upon him. If you believe in Gehinnom, then you know that the OO are sending Jewish Neshamos there wholesale with their Kefira. That is love of Jews? If you love Jews, you try to educate them about the truth, not grant legitimacy to their pseudo-Jewish ideologies.<br /><br />And of course, to compare people "Amalek" is much worse than to compare people to the דור המבול, isn't it?Chaimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05331877663627621320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-7673816569493697462014-04-07T20:26:37.816+03:002014-04-07T20:26:37.816+03:00Now, now Chaim, I didn't offer approval of eit...Now, now Chaim, I didn't offer approval of either side, just asked which is worse. <br />Tell me, did you ever learn the midrash about why the Generation of the Mabul was destroyed and the Generation of the Dispersion wasn't? <br />As full of kefira the Open Orthodox are they are also full of love for their fellow Jews. Meanwhile we have a new post over at an approved Orthodox blog today where the author calls anyone who disagrees with the Chareidi position on the draft "Amalek".<br />I don't think a rabbi who espouses the position that the Torah isn't true should be listened to as a rabbi but I'd rather hang out with him than a true believer who was likely to strike me over the head with a rock if I disagreed with him.Mighty Garnel Ironhearthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09571194550300367249noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-72617405597358649012014-04-07T17:58:08.446+03:002014-04-07T17:58:08.446+03:00Of course, Garnel - let's ignore the outright ...Of course, Garnel - let's ignore the outright Kefira, which dooms its adherents to losing their Next World. (You probably think that riots are still worse, as long as they are Chareidi.) We'll just cite the example that suits us.<br /><br />If "Rabbis" publically announcing that they don't believe in Yetzias Mitzrayim or Matan Torah doesn't constitute a "Chillul Hashem on a massive public scale" in your book, then you are far from Torah indeed. It seems that your idea of "Kiddush Hashem" is as meaningless as the Reform's "Ikkar" of "Tikkun Olam". Hashem Yerachem.Chaimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05331877663627621320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-37354656432009987482014-04-07T17:15:31.993+03:002014-04-07T17:15:31.993+03:00When Chareidism goes off the rails we get riots, s...When Chareidism goes off the rails we get riots, slander, and Taliban-like rituals leading to things like Lev Tahor and chilul HaShem on a massive public scale.<br />When Open Orthodoxy goes off the rails we get a woman leading Kabbalas Shabbos.<br />Which is worse?Mighty Garnel Ironhearthttp://garnelironheart.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-66698788732940702012014-04-04T03:37:52.283+03:002014-04-04T03:37:52.283+03:00Reading the comments I am reminded of a teaching o...Reading the comments I am reminded of a teaching of the Vilna Gaon. If you don't rise higher and higher, you will sink lower and lower. Some Orthodox and some people in the Torah community are rising higher and higher and some are going in a different direction. But we have to define "higher and higher." It would seem to mean praying and learning with more fervor and more hours in a day. But I feel it means something else, based upon my observation of the great rabbis I saw in my youth. My rebbes, the few who escaped Europe in WWII, were fighters. If I fight here on the blog, tooth and nail, to defend the traditional Torah, I learned this from Reb Aharon Kotler. I saw him in action. I was once talking to him while he ate supper and three rabbis came in, and in seconds, there was WW55. They were conversing about a book, and I decided that if anyway I am a chutpah person to talk to Reb Aharon, I may as well compound the felony by going over and seeing what the fuss is all about. I did, and the rabbis were so engaged in furious fighting talk about this book, that is, they were in agreement that something had to be done, that they didn't notice me at all, and I went over and saw what it is. If I would say what it was, many people today would not understand. But that is why I learned. One inch in the wrong direction means light the candles and make war. Fighting brings us "higher and higher" and acceptance of the wrong books and the wrong other things, seemingly very minor, lead to going "lower and lower." That is why this blog is all alone in its ability to protect the Torah, and it has called out some big numbers and nailed them. But a lot of other people think that all of this fighting is just a shame and wrong. They never spent a lot of time with the great Gedolim of yesteryear, and so they invented a new "Daas Torah" and it is a new Torah and it changes and changed.Dovid Eidensohnhttp://torahtimes.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-61942220173698200642014-04-04T01:01:53.509+03:002014-04-04T01:01:53.509+03:00Chaim makes a good point, and although I am not fa...Chaim makes a good point, and although I am not familiar with the USA, in the UK, the main orthodox shuls are called United Synagogue. They have a large membership, which is the majority of Uk Jews. however, despite this being a Modern Orthodox Kehilla, most of the members are not fully orthodox in practice, i.e. they might drive on shabbat, or not keep kosher, but for whatever reasons they stay within the orthodox rituals of bris, barmitzvah and burial, with a few Holidays in between. Ben MIkrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07122937371918515052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-10548355971694835392014-04-04T00:26:03.861+03:002014-04-04T00:26:03.861+03:00I assume that when you say "the menu of Jewis...I assume that when you say "the menu of Jewish rituals" you refer to Jewish laws. Your position, as defined by the Torah, is Apikorsus - as I'm sure you are well aware. Any distinction between the attitude you describe, and that of the Reform and Conservative, is not a qualitative one. To our great sadness, most Jewish people nowadays do not believe in the Torah, רחמנא ליצלן. May Mashiach come soon!<br /><br />I am highly dubious, however, as to your claim that such Apikorsus is rampant within the MO world. That it is rampant, is unfortunately true. But in the MO world? I think that perhaps there are communities which you identify as MO, but the main body of the MO does not - precisely because of their Apikorsus. Are you claiming that such Apikorsus is institutionalised, or just common in the minds of many people you have spoken to? Are there any MO Rabbis you could cite who also hold such views?Chaimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05331877663627621320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-1485222612283497042014-04-04T00:11:07.971+03:002014-04-04T00:11:07.971+03:00There was recently an article on the Israeli news ...There was recently an article on the Israeli news site, Walla, about the haredi community. It spoke of a growing number of hareidm who continue to dress as haredi, for social reasons, but privately live more and more secular lives, including hillul shabbes, eating treif and even sexual orgies. This is quite apart from the growing OTD phenomenon where yeshiva people are going totally secular, atheist and eating anything.<br />So it might score some political points to knock the MO world, but the hareidi world has many social and religious problems. They may not be as open to discussing it, but they exist.Ben MIkrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07122937371918515052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-8333615482077418752014-04-03T20:46:36.919+03:002014-04-03T20:46:36.919+03:00I can't address your points, since I do not kn...I can't address your points, since I do not know who Avi weiss is - I've never met him or read/heard anything he says. I also am not too familiar with the other yeshivas you mention, other than their glorious past. <br />But all i can give is a joke, which belongs more in Adar, but is relevant to the "open orthodox" fellow who denies the Torah.<br /><br />There was once a group that called themselves open heterosexuals. One brave member of the group decided he was a feigele, and married another man, but still considered himself heterosexual. Now this reminds me of what that "rabbi" Farber says, about lehavdil the Avot. <br />Just as we cannot rationally understand the absurdity of the fellow in the joke, so there is nothing rational about Farber. If he were to call himself reform, then fine, that solves the problem. Then Chovovei can call itself an inter-denominational group. But i don't know what their "openess" is. And if they have accepted farber as being one of their own, or wish him to leave.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Ben MIkrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07122937371918515052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-78661188551516693812014-04-03T18:00:34.768+03:002014-04-03T18:00:34.768+03:00Eddie,
Your points are completely valid, that this...Eddie,<br />Your points are completely valid, that this one man is fortunately not a sign of a Yeshiva other than Chovivei Torah perhaps. But I feel my point is also valid. Where does a person have the guts to get up and say he is Orthodox and doesn't believe that there were Avoth or Egyptian exile or the escape from Egypt? If everyone else in the Orthodox world was a true believer in the Torah, brought about by exposure to great rabbis who did believe, and if they were free from the influence of secularism and feminism, I don't know if he would say this. My point is, that I see incredible danger in Chovivei Torah. Not because it is a new breaking point in Orthodox, although it is that, but because there is fertile ground out there from people who live in a secular world, who are bothered by the conflicts between secular and Torah, and who have not had the cure of being close to a true tsadik and gadol, which may be the majority. And if I am right, I see great danger, as the issue of Agunah will destroy the belief in a true GET, powered on by the Agudah-Lakewood Rosh Yeshivas who are now major mamzer producers, and encouraged by those in the modern Orthodox world who are even close to the opposite of Torah in many ways, and what is left? To repeat: I don't consider this a battle against Avi Weiss. I feel that Avi Weiss succeeds because everyone else, the Lakewood Rosh Yeshivas, the Agudah "Gedolim" rachmono litslon, and other mamzer producers, have poisoned the world with the idea that the Shulchan Aruch is wrong when you have a cousin or friend whose dauighter needs as GET. And that is just the beginning. But once these treifeh corrupt people did their thing, Avi Weiss is the man who knows how to spin the bottle until it comes up with those who don't believe anything except that they know that they are Orthodox.Dovid Eidensohnhttp://torahtimes.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-82553336549451960612014-04-03T17:17:51.809+03:002014-04-03T17:17:51.809+03:00Unfortunately, we have no way of knowing whether N...Unfortunately, we have no way of knowing whether Nat is really nat, and nat is impersonating Nat!<br /><br />Chaim (really)Chaimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05331877663627621320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-82416599336467194982014-04-03T16:15:49.668+03:002014-04-03T16:15:49.668+03:00your story is obviously made up as no "Briske...your story is obviously made up as no "Brisker" would be a fan of "Yated world." Stick to things you know about. dovynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-91041202900594352452014-04-03T14:43:52.802+03:002014-04-03T14:43:52.802+03:00http://www.commentarymagazine.com/article/the-rise...http://www.commentarymagazine.com/article/the-rise-of-social-orthodoxy-a-personal-account/<br />...<br />Kaplan’s Reconstructionist movement, from its inception, has remained a tiny minority within a minority. And yet, nearly 70 years after his excommunication, Kaplan’s perspective is surprisingly resonant within that of the Modern Orthodox world. As both the UJA and Pew data revealed, many Modern Orthodox Jews are more focused on living a Jewish life than they are on theology or a rigid set of rules. Modern Orthodox day schools teach evolution unapologetically, notwithstanding the literal text of Genesis. And they have begun to accommodate gay and lesbian students, notwithstanding the literal text of Leviticus, with one school even establishing a club as a forum for students to discuss matters of sexuality and identity. Notably, in Modern Orthodox day schools, much to the chagrin of their teachers, many students have taken to observing what they call “half shabbos”—the practice of going to synagogue and keeping the Sabbath, but using their iPhones and Blackberries to text on the Sabbath, despite the rabbinical prohibition on using electronics. <br />...<br />Yet despite such halachic foot-faults, these same Modern Orthodox Jewish teenagers and their families lead lives that are completely focused on Jewish values, ideals, and rituals. The adults attend synagogue regularly, participate in Torah and Talmud classes organized by their synagogues, donate significantly to Jewish communal organizations, and travel to Israel frequently. Their children study in dual-curriculum schools (often for 13 years); many then take a year off before college to study Talmud in Israel; and a great number spend their summers in Zionist Orthodox camps.<br />...<br />Unless one were to look very carefully, I would appear to be the very model of an Orthodox Jew, albeit a modern one. But I also pick and choose from the menu of Jewish rituals without fear of divine retribution. And I root my identity much more in Jewish culture, history, and nationality than in faith and commandments. I am a Social Orthodox Jew, and I am not alone.Social Orthodoxnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-15018975679552499232014-04-03T14:38:59.654+03:002014-04-03T14:38:59.654+03:00http://www.commentarymagazine.com/article/the-rise...http://www.commentarymagazine.com/article/the-rise-of-social-orthodoxy-a-personal-account/<br />....<br />All of which raises the question: Are the Modern Orthodox in America really Orthodox?<br /><br />As a matter of doctrine the fundamental tenet of Orthodox Judaism is the belief that on Mount Sinai, God transmitted to Moses both the written law (the Torah) and the oral law (the Talmud and certain other rabbinic texts). That is why Orthodox Judaism is generally resistant to changing interpretations of the law, except where there is some precedent for it in traditional law. To be sure, many Modern Orthodox rabbis and some of their congregants are steadfast in their faith and look to halacha to guide all aspects of their lives precisely because they believe it is the revealed word of God. But if unwavering acceptance of the Torah as divine is the precondition for Orthodoxy, then the term “Modern Orthodox” may well be a misnomer for many Jews who identify as Modern Orthodox. They might more accurately be described as Social Orthodox, with the emphasis on “Social.”Social Orthodoxnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-87132692514228624632014-04-03T14:38:14.493+03:002014-04-03T14:38:14.493+03:00Another way of describing Open Orthodox is contain...Another way of describing Open Orthodox is contained in:<br />The Rise of Social Orthodoxy: A Personal Account, Jay Lefkowitz<br />http://www.commentarymagazine.com/article/the-rise-of-social-orthodoxy-a-personal-account/<br />...<br /> Modern Orthodox have found themselves fully immersed in debates centered around the two great cultural fault lines of our generation: women’s rights and gay rights. Although many in the Modern Orthodox movement have tried to resist the pressure to afford women a more active role in synagogue services and have simply refused to acknowledge a role for homosexual couples within Orthodoxy, both of these walls are increasingly being breached.<br /><br />The breach has been most pronounced in the case of women’s rights. Over the last decade, there has been a burgeoning of new “partnership” synagogues, in which men and women, divided by an Orthodox mechitza (a partition, so the sexes are separated when praying in synagogue), both participate as leaders in the services. And in the past few years, a prominent Orthodox rabbi, Avi Weiss, has begun to ordain women to serve as congregational rabbis. He has even established a women’s rabbinical college in New York. But the most recent indication that Modern Orthodoxy continues to bend to the zeitgeist comes from two of the most prominent Modern Orthodox high schools in New York City. These schools declared that girls are now permitted to wrap teffilin around their arms and foreheads when they say their morning prayers. Underscoring the tension inherent in being both “Modern” and “Orthodox,” rabbinic leaders at both schools made clear that even though such a practice was halachically (that is, legally) permissible, it was a communally “complicated” issue and would not be “recommended.”<br /><br />Likewise, although Modern Orthodoxy has not followed Conservative and Reform Jews in approving gay marriage, a group of prominent Modern Orthodox rabbis issued a joint statement in 2010 urging members of their communities to accept homosexuals. And now gay couples are joining Modern Orthodox synagogues.Social Orthodoxnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-65398859496609273632014-04-03T12:13:26.692+03:002014-04-03T12:13:26.692+03:00"And part of it comes from an avoda zoro crea..."And part of it comes from an avoda zoro created by the modern Agudah element Rosh Yeshivas that anything they say is "Daas Torah" and this overrides anything in the Shulchan Aruch or elsewhere."<br /><br />That is a very interesting point. But it applies to all claims of "Daas Torah", unless you have a Kohein Gadol who is ritually pure and has Urim v'Thumim. <br />In fact, I had a discussion once with a Rosh Yeshiva of a small Brisk (antimodern; anti-zionist) Yeshiva, about failures of the "Gedolim" before and during the war. he said we do not have Urim v'Thumim. The same RY claimed that people who don't accept the Daas torah of the Yated world are reform!<br /><br />But Reb Dovid's arguments are essentially ad hominems. That one man, who got orthodox semicha has become an apikorus b'ikkar, does not really prove anything about YU or Torah im Derech Eretz. He didnt pick up his ideas from YU. There was a time when Hareidi Yeshivot in Europe were losing 50% of their students. Does that mean the yeshivas were all bad?Ben MIkrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07122937371918515052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-74613463427568744182014-04-03T04:01:20.441+03:002014-04-03T04:01:20.441+03:00My remarks about people raised in two opposite wor...My remarks about people raised in two opposite worlds, Haredi Orthodoxy for Torah study and secular non-religious professors for secular studies, are not about any one individual who did such and such. I explained that for generations America only had YU and only after the war was there a serious haredi presence, made stronger by the realization that being secular did not help German Jews. I wrote above about those who are strongly influenced by many hours a day with secular even anti-religious professors, and the needs in some places to be truly respectable and respected by a secular world.<br />I have spent much time here, most of my time in fact, attacking, not YU people but Lakewood and such rabbis. My 13 pages on Rabbi Shlomo Miller is the longest I ever wrote on this or other issues here. If I can quote the gedolei hador in Israel, the Shulchan Aruch and its commentators, all of whom say that coercing a GET such as Rabbis Miller and Kaminetsky and many major Rosh Yeshivas and rabbis commanded the community to do is completely wrong and makes mamzerim, and if that was the opinion of Rav Yosef Shalom Elyashev in his published teshuvose, how can the Lakewood rabbis command everyone to humiliate and break the husband until he gives a GET? They are also treifeh. And where does this treifeh come from? Part of it comes from the corruption of somebody's cousin or close friend, and some of it comes from the corruption of living in a world where people must choose the woman suffering in marriage over the husband. And part of it comes from an avoda zoro created by the modern Agudah element Rosh Yeshivas that anything they say is "Daas Torah" and this overrides anything in the Shulchan Aruch or elsewhere. And part of it comes from Rosh Yeshivas who study the Talmujd and have no idea about the laws of Gittin, other than what they make up and call it "Daas Torah" rachmono litson.Dovid Eidensohnhttp://torahtimes.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-22458879861498117322014-04-03T03:45:11.976+03:002014-04-03T03:45:11.976+03:00but as i have said many times, denying major ikkar...<i>but as i have said many times, denying major ikkarim, like the Torah, the unity of God etc, are absurd and crazy. which is ironic, since kabbalah has gone the way of Christianity</i><br /><br />Eddie this statement is absurd. You continue to make these bizarre statements that you can in no way back up. You were given the chance two months ago to actually engage in the texts when I posted Rav Hillel's teshuva on the subject, but you decided to remain silent.<br /><br />http://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/2014/02/shorshei-hayam-beriat-olam-and-sod.htmlRabbi Michael Tzadokhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02307256653501750003noreply@blogger.com