tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post7177427293968278391..comments2024-03-28T02:08:17.990+02:00Comments on Daas Torah - Issues of Jewish Identity: Weiss files motion to dismiss Rivky's remaining claims because they are liesDaas Torahhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comBlogger121125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-85618666267395565382015-02-08T21:35:11.232+02:002015-02-08T21:35:11.232+02:00Rivky, all the bochurim in the yeshiva love you th...Rivky, all the bochurim in the yeshiva love you thanks this website is kosher for filterchaimnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-80997034054849736672015-02-06T18:08:11.638+02:002015-02-06T18:08:11.638+02:00Well, we differ on the validity of the sevarah to ...Well, we differ on the validity of the sevarah to differentiate. In any case, I think we've exhausted the topic, so we'll just have to agree to disagree.kishkeyumnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-88704189928122724652015-02-06T12:08:44.762+02:002015-02-06T12:08:44.762+02:00@kishkeyum - it is not a question of a convincing ...@kishkeyum - it is not a question of a convincing servrah. That in fact exists and been presented to you. The problem is convincing you and so far we have been unsuccessfulDaas Torahhttp://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-20500590375103099992015-02-06T01:50:27.505+02:002015-02-06T01:50:27.505+02:00Indeed, R' Moshe doesn't address the arkao...Indeed, R' Moshe doesn't address the arkaos case. I am being מדמה מילתא למילתא. I see nothing wrong with the comparison. Until you can provide a convincing sevarah to differentiate between the means used to steal the money, I see no reason to accept your assertion that the law would not be the same when the money was stolen through arkaos.kishkeyumnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-26305364324348945002015-02-05T23:22:44.071+02:002015-02-05T23:22:44.071+02:00@Kishkeyum - you haven't established that Rav ...@Kishkeyum - you haven't established that Rav Moshe views going to Arkaos as simply another way of stealing - but your comment simply assumes it to be true. Rav Moshe doesn't mention arkaos and you view that as proof that it is subsumed under the case of stealing. I see no reason to accept your assertions.Daas Torahhttp://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-74234765010763844482015-02-05T21:30:33.522+02:002015-02-05T21:30:33.522+02:00@liveandletlive - It also does not mean that it di...@liveandletlive - It also does not mean that it did happen. You don't know and I don't know - we both weren't there. The point is that you can't lynch a person based on mere accusations. Just because something is hard to prove doesn't negate the requirement of proof.Davidnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-92032705144538119832015-02-05T20:07:09.815+02:002015-02-05T20:07:09.815+02:00The point I am making hasn't anything to do wi...The point I am making hasn't anything to do with the Maharsham's psak. The simple (and only) thing I am pointing out is that arkaos intrinsically by its very form and nature is a form of mesira. As the halachas of arkaos clearly define it as mesira. Arkaos = mesira. Mesira = בין אדם לחבירו violation. Thus, arkaos = בין אדם לחבירו violation. Intrinsically.Moe Ginsburgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-50676891522832947112015-02-05T19:37:35.654+02:002015-02-05T19:37:35.654+02:00him not automatically giving a Get-on-demand doesn...<i>him not automatically giving a Get-on-demand doesn't hurt his reputation more than hers</i><br /><br />Maybe not more than hers, but it will hurt his reputation.<br />Although in this particular case, where he's been accused of unspeakable things, the damage has been done, and he has little to lose at this point in terms of reputation.<br /><br /><i>he only needs one frum woman in the world to agree to marry him.</i><br /><br />Ah, but what kind of woman will it be? The worse one's reputation, the less likely he is to draw the interest of the wholesome and emotionally healthy, and the more likely to end up with someone seriously flawed.kishkeyumnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-61012544518214490372015-02-05T18:26:53.470+02:002015-02-05T18:26:53.470+02:00They could resent her also.. that doesn't make...They could resent her also.. that doesn't make him right. There is no proof that her abuse accusations are wrong . Parents have to tread very carefully in what they do..liveandletlivenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-56851729814306702312015-02-05T18:14:11.886+02:002015-02-05T18:14:11.886+02:00u should be ashamed of what you just said. My poin...u should be ashamed of what you just said. My point is that proving abuse is hard to do as it is done within your four walls.. does not mean it did not happen.. I personally think that this is more of a case of her getting really really bad advice rather than her being a liar.liveandletlivenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-70555932884931776712015-02-05T16:37:30.752+02:002015-02-05T16:37:30.752+02:00As I posted there, the Maharsham's psak is not...As I posted there, the Maharsham's psak is not based on the line of reasoning you're putting forward -- that since she did wicked things to him illegally, therefore he's free of Rabbeinu Gershom. His reasoning is much different; that she will be punished down the line by being the victim of mesirah, which would cost him money, which is the equivalent of דברים בינו לבינה, and therefore Rabbeinu Gershom's cherem does not apply.kishkeyumnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-43928879930594180152015-02-05T04:09:28.982+02:002015-02-05T04:09:28.982+02:00Another point I intended to point out (and you in ...Another point I intended to point out (and you in fact reminded me with your recent comment on the RMK thread paraphrasing the Maharsham) is that arkaos is at its essence mesira (as is clear throughout the halachic literature discussing arkaos.) And mesira is בין אדם לחבירו.Moe Ginsburgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-57609345389710845762015-02-05T01:27:13.552+02:002015-02-05T01:27:13.552+02:00I agree that it's possible R' Moshe might ...I agree that it's possible R' Moshe might agree in the case of non-monetary judgments. I would have to be מעיין in his teshuvah more carefully before answering that definitively (which I doubt will happen any time soon). Sometimes, what seems evident on a quick read will change with עיון.kishkeyumnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-31663664631545187462015-02-04T23:30:53.258+02:002015-02-04T23:30:53.258+02:00Nu, what you're saying is that in terms of rep...Nu, what you're saying is that in terms of reputation they are both taking a beating. That is true, generally, in public fights - as you said. I'm pointing out that this idea that the idea of not automatically giving a Get-on-demand doesn't hurt his reputation more than hers with most of the frum community. (Note that according to the Pew study in 2013, over 70% of American Orthodox Jews are Chareidi, i.e. more right-leaning.) Of course those with liberal leanings that believe in Get-on-demand will oppose any man not giving it on-demand. Both sides will have their automatic backers and detractors. <br /><br /><br />And at risk of sounding like a broken record, he only needs one frum woman in the world to agree to marry him. Also, it is generally easier for a man (divorced or never married) to find a wife than for a woman to find a husband.Moe Ginsburgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-35100007284829101162015-02-04T23:26:58.040+02:002015-02-04T23:26:58.040+02:00Without conceding any of the other points, the imp...Without conceding any of the other points, the implication of your most recent comment is that you agree with me that in an arkaos case where there has been applied non-monetary secular court judgements and decrees, such as jailing, custody awards, driving license/passport seizures, professional license revocations, etc., that such a case would not fall under the aforementioned psak of Rav Moshe (which only deals with a monetary theft case) and in such a case there would be no conflict between the psak of Rav Moshe to the psakim of Rav Shternbuch/Rav Klein.<br /><br />And to again use the example at hand that this thread's been discussing, in the Rivky Stein case where she repeatedly had her husband jailed (five times) and prevented him from access to his children by filing false abuse charges against him (as even the secular courts determined) and is continuing a RICO suit against him seeking his incarceration, the aforementioned psak of Rav Moshe would be inapplicable to this case.Moe Ginsburgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-50641539903509956522015-02-04T19:30:23.539+02:002015-02-04T19:30:23.539+02:00a) The בין אדם לחבירו is the stealing. The means u...a) The בין אדם לחבירו is the stealing. The means used was arkaos. The חומר you have showed re. arkaos relates to the בין אדם למקום sin, not to the בין אדם לחבירו result.<br /><br />b) True, worse things can emerge from arkaos. But we are discussing a case where arkaos have ruled, and the worse results have <i>not</i> emerged, but rather, she has simply gained funds and rights she would not have gained in beis din. The question is whether he may receive heter me'ah while withholding the get until she returns the gains she received in court. My contention is that acc. to R' Moshe, he may not, since all she has done is steal his money, which is the case he is discussing [at least based on the teshuva in front of us; a question is raised, though, by R' Menashe Klein's citing, as discussed in the later post].kishkeyumnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-56928443459200090652015-02-04T19:21:40.950+02:002015-02-04T19:21:40.950+02:00He likely will lose in terms of reputation. Genera...He likely will lose in terms of reputation. Generally, both husband and wife tarnish their reputations in these public fights. There's a certain percentage of the population that will not, under any circumstances, take a chance with these people. Others who are less discerning, or have flaws of their own, or have been convinced of the innocence of one of the parties, will take their chances.kishkeyumnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-64436571892825423862015-02-04T16:29:10.125+02:002015-02-04T16:29:10.125+02:00@Moshe Aaron The benefit of witholding a GET is #...@Moshe Aaron The benefit of witholding a GET is #1 to make a statement that one gets divorced under the same guidelines that were set at the time of marriage, namely "KEDAS MOSHE V"YISROEL" like the laws of Moses and Israel. When a woman such as Rivky and Lonna Kin violate the Torah in regards to going to secular courts, they lose their rights to a GET. Feminism is trying to pull a veil over the eyes of the uneducated in believing that a GET is a G-D given right. That is not true, but protocol must be followed, and then she earns that priviledge. When a woman does not follow protocol and violates the Torah in the process, she is defined as MOREDET. Once a woman falls into such a category, her halachic rights are forfeited until she corrects what she had done wrong. This is why the next blog above, from Rabbi Menashe Klein, illustrates that a man should deposit a GET and get remarried. However he cautions that if the woman complies with Halocho, she is given the GET. In regards to the husband's reputation, this all depends to the man's fortitude. I applaud Meir Kin who has withstood years of defamation at the hands of ORA and the JP, and remarried to a lovely Brazilian physician. He has demonstrated a complete disregard to Ora's harrassments techniques. I find an eerie comparison of all the feminist leaning people and rabbis with ISIS. They both know how to distort religion in meeting their objectives. The Jewish feminist movement refuses to do the right thing i.e. settle the matter early on or go to a Bais Din because they feel that this weakens the woman's position. But they have no way out because Judaism is built in such a fashion that dictates what the roles are for man and women in Judaism. I can assure you that if Jewish Feminist Rabbis would construct the Torah all over again, it would find at the very least that women and men are equal all the way around. For example, they would make it that a woman can issue a man a get in the same manner as a man issuing her a GET. Therefore the problem that feminist leaning people have is that they cant tolerate that our Torah was not constructed in an "EQUAL GENDER" basis. This is a fact forever and we cant change the TORAH. I hope that many more men such as Yoel Weiss and Meir Kin will stand strong against these reformadox bullies in order to restore once agin the "KEDAS MOSHE V'YISROEL.fedupwithcorruptrabbisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-18165113383271089142015-02-04T06:30:01.253+02:002015-02-04T06:30:01.253+02:00Moshe Ahron,
Tell me where it says in Shulchan Aru...Moshe Ahron,<br />Tell me where it says in Shulchan Aruch that somebody should not do something not in his best interest even if the Shulchan Aruch encourages him to do it.Dovid Eidensohnhttp://torahtimes.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-77601106890446515342015-02-04T06:28:11.882+02:002015-02-04T06:28:11.882+02:00Moshe Ahron,
Can a husband be told to give an inva...Moshe Ahron,<br />Can a husband be told to give an invalid GET so that he can get along in the world? That would make mamzerim.Dovid Eidensohnhttp://torahtimes.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-78261223469420906852015-02-04T06:27:06.996+02:002015-02-04T06:27:06.996+02:00Moshe Ahron,
You may be right that many people who...Moshe Ahron,<br />You may be right that many people who are Orthodox, even many rabbis, don't think my brother and I are right with regard to coerced Gittin. But I defy you to show one source to those who consider a broken marriage grounds for a forced GET. Those who study the sources agree with Rabbi Elyashev zt'l that the husband has no obligaton to give a GET in a broken marriage. This is based on open rishonim and the famous commentators of the Shulchan Aruch. Again, tell me one major opinion of a Rishon or Acharon that feels that today klal yisroel has decided that a husband can be forced to give a GET. There were in the past great rabbis who accepted that, but from two generations after Rashi these opinions have been rejected in the majority of the world. This blog is filled with the sources and proofs for these things. But you can begin with EH 77 paragraph 2 and 3 and all of the commentators there including the Gro #5 who says that nobody disagrees. (Except your rabbis of course).Dovid Eidensohnhttp://torahtimes.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-27298567871242155932015-02-04T02:37:31.002+02:002015-02-04T02:37:31.002+02:00a) It's blatantly obvious that using arkaos to...a) It's blatantly obvious that using arkaos to sue a fellow Jew is a בין אדם לחבירו violation. The primary (but not only) reason halacha prohibits arkaos is because non-Jewish law differs from Jewish law and the person initiating the arkaos case is utilizing non-Jewish law against a Jew in order to obtain things from the person he is suing that Jewish law does not grant. Openly a בין אדם לחבירו sin.<br /><br /><br />b) An example of a sevara that comes immediately to mind is in an arkaos case the non-Jewish judge can invoke remedies such as jailing for non-compliance and other harsh remedies. Getting a Jew unjustly (per Jewish law) jailed is a far worse sin than robbing him.<br /><br /><br />And in fact in this Rivky Weiss case she had her husband jailed overnight five times. So in the very case at hand being discussed here, the wife invoked arkaos and had harsh non-monetary penalties applied against her husband that is far worse than any of the monetary damage she already caused. Oh, and for periods of time she unjustly (as even the secular courts later determined) prevented her husband for seeing his children for extended period of times. That is another example of utilizing arkaos in a far harsher damage than caused by theft.Moe Ginsburgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-75369074244861557552015-02-04T02:28:58.883+02:002015-02-04T02:28:58.883+02:00A child of divorce may resent a mother who attempt...A child of divorce may resent a mother who attempts to alienate him from his father and tries to prevent the children from seeing their father. They may also resent her for making wild false accusations against their father and calling tabloid reporters from the New York Post to publicize her fight and give the tabloids juicy bedroom activities to splash across a million newspapers.Moe Ginsburgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-57832615807012341572015-02-04T02:27:03.840+02:002015-02-04T02:27:03.840+02:00I saw that you posted it. I don't have time fo...I saw that you posted it. I don't have time for it now, but hopefullly later or tomorrow.kishkeyumnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-1255207418590694392015-02-04T02:26:47.316+02:002015-02-04T02:26:47.316+02:00a) I see no proof to your contention that the stri...a) I see no proof to your contention that the stringency of arkaos is b/c of בין אדם לחבירו. The sources you cited above dealt specifically with בין אדם למקום. [in response to your #2, when I used the term חומרא I meant it in the sense of the חומר הענין, not in the sense of an optional חומרא.]<br /><br />b) I'm aware that this is your contention, but I haven't yet heard a sevarah to differentiate between which means the wife employs to grab the money.kishkeyumnoreply@blogger.com