tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post715896005059155130..comments2024-03-28T02:08:17.990+02:00Comments on Daas Torah - Issues of Jewish Identity: Was marriage traumatic for children in Middle Ages?Daas Torahhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-38277475701159051932013-08-30T19:33:28.146+03:002013-08-30T19:33:28.146+03:00I was thinking along the same lines. If the rabbi...I was thinking along the same lines. If the rabbis of that time admitted that girls were getting hurt as a result of "playing" with them before they are mature enough, and the very real possibility of physical trauma (just look up "obstetric fistula" to understand how horrible this trauma is) didn't stop the practice of early marriage, why would the possibility of emotional trauma become an obstacle? Even in societies where very early marriage is normal and expected, there are plenty of women traumatized by this both physically and emotionally.SubWifehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10130118656023678187noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-2677667280178720972013-08-26T06:38:37.806+03:002013-08-26T06:38:37.806+03:00It seems to me issues are still being confalted. ...It seems to me issues are still being confalted. being "married off" at age 3 or 13 is not always the same as consumating the marriage then (especially re: marriage in early childhood). It sounds like the historical evidence of true child brides (pre pubescent) is generally of betrothal.<br />as for trauma, people had fewer choices in general, and lack of choice in marriage partner was normal. <br />that said, it doesn't mean everything was hunky dory for naive girls with little or no instruction in sexual matters married off to much older men, especially at the beginning, especially in a world where the only protection against marital rape was the husband's good will. i believe reports of contemporary women from cultures where child marriage is normal (whether to young or old husbands) bear this out. but if everyone has the same experience, and it's just another one of the ways its bad to be a woman, would it count as "trauma"? and would it even register with observers (especially the males ones whose voices are most often recorded in writing)? that something is widespread does not mean that it doesn't cause problems for participants, just that those problems are either ignored or not seen as as important as other considerations<br /><br />[on the contemporary realities of child brides even in cultures where it is "normal," see http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-15082550. (e.g. "According to a study by The International Center for Research on Women (ICRW), girls in some Indian states who were married before 18, were twice as likely to report being beaten, slapped or threatened by their husbands than girls who married later.") or: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_marriage_in_India#Consequences_of_child_marriage ("Young brides often show symptoms of sexual abuse and post-traumatic stress.")]emnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-22817881853214279922013-08-25T22:33:51.427+03:002013-08-25T22:33:51.427+03:00In New York State the youngest age a person can ma...In New York State the youngest age a person can marry, with parental/judicial consent, is age 14. <br /><br />http://www.health.ny.gov/publications/4210/<br />Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13407460404034430042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-78658212155916533572013-08-25T19:59:04.976+03:002013-08-25T19:59:04.976+03:00The problem with you people is that you are confus...The problem with you people is that you are confused as to <b>WHO IS A CHILD.</b><br /><br />A child is a person <b>UNDER 13</b> years of age.<br /><br />An <b>adult</b> is a person over 13 years of age.<br /><br />Now carry on your discussion. But keep in mind that if the persons are over 13 years old they are adults.<br /><br />The ages of 16, 18 or 21 as demarcation points are of recent vintage and are not the normative historical definition of child/adult ages.Ben Torahnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-3601529136573801832013-08-25T18:58:01.827+03:002013-08-25T18:58:01.827+03:00Or in Russia where the military draft exempted mar...Or in Russia where the military draft exempted married men, then at the height of the cantonist system, 12 year olds were taken.<br /><br />So perhaps we could say: halacha give us the possibility of child marriage when external circumstances make it the least bad solution.Yoel Bnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-18551651071846169252013-08-25T14:18:36.450+03:002013-08-25T14:18:36.450+03:00Also, in the Persian community, almost 200 years a...Also, in the Persian community, almost 200 years ago, when there was a shmad, ie forced conversion to Islam, Jews were forced to take religion underground, and to avoid marrying muslims, would have to make very young shidduchim amongst themselves. This went on for a century. There was a long "engagement" period, which would take the form of marriage at around bar/batmitzvah age. Now, I would agree with you that under such circumstances, compared to relative freedom today in US, Uk, Israel, expectations are quite different. Expectations then were a) to survive, and b) not to be forced to marry a Muslim. Whether psychological trauma existed, and how much of this was due to the marriage vs. due to living a double identity as marrano Jews and outwardly muslim, is not an easy thing to do, even as descendant of those.Ben MIkrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07122937371918515052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-72376725881886831072013-08-25T14:06:51.950+03:002013-08-25T14:06:51.950+03:00Eddie - you are correct that the definitive study ...Eddie - you are correct that the definitive study has not been done. It is not clear that there is data that it can be done. I just wanted to point out that observed through the lense of the rabbinic literature in the Middle Ages child marriage was viewed as normal in all societies. Child marriage is viewed today as abuse.<br /><br /> Therefore a number of people have criticized the halachic Jewish position as a sign that Judaism tolerates or even encourages abuse of children.<br /><br />Regarding your observation "Child abuse is quite different from the cases of marriage below the age of consent - since in a substantial number of cases, the husband would act decently towards his young wife. That is not the case with child abuse, as we knwo it today."<br /><br />Many cases of child abuse - the child in fact develops affection or even love of the abuser. This was an issue raised in the Weberman case, the Kolko case as well as the Levy case and many others. In ancient Greece it was considered normal for a young boy to have a mentor who had sexual relations with him. Many pedophiles in fact view themselves as mentors - not abusers. The process of grooming is exactly developed this way with the abuser being supportive, nurturing and building self-esteem. Look at Jerry Sandusky of Penn State.<br /><br />Regarding measuring trauma, I am simply noting that contemporary observers did not mention that there was an issue. We don't need a scale for something which apparently didn't exist.Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-54031792954957284362013-08-25T13:46:13.483+03:002013-08-25T13:46:13.483+03:00It seems to me that your introduction and the arti...It seems to me that your introduction and the article is confusing several issues.<br /><br />1) Marriage<br /><br />2) Rape/abuse which is usually extra-marital, and often same-sex (Male-Male).<br /><br />3) Forced or arranged marriage, whether above or below the norms of its day.<br /><br /><br />A forced marriage can be traumatic, whether or not it is above eh age of consent or the norms of its day.<br /><br />So there are several sets of data you need to research in order to support the thesis that abuse is a function of expectations. Forced marriage still takes place in many Muslim and Indian communities, for example. But there were times when it was much more widespread and "normal". However, that does not mean it was without trauma.<br /><br />Child abuse is quite different from the cases of marriage below the age of consent - since in a substantial number of cases, the husband would act decently towards his young wife. That is not the case with child abuse, as we knwo it today. <br /><br />Then there is the question of measuring trauma. How can we measure trauma of what happened several hundred years ago, when we have no ability to do so, and there is no evidence of what was taking place?<br /><br />Ben MIkrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07122937371918515052noreply@blogger.com