tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post3865822370765899795..comments2024-03-29T09:34:59.827+03:00Comments on Daas Torah - Issues of Jewish Identity: Old Siruv against Rav Herschel SchachterDaas Torahhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comBlogger72125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-19133322560659649752012-05-12T20:31:45.573+03:002012-05-12T20:31:45.573+03:00It has come to my attention that another B"D ...It has come to my attention that another B"D claimed prior jurisdiction in this case and thus the above Seruv may be in contempt of halakha... So with that I will say until it can be proven which B"D was actually the B"D to initially handle this there is no way of knowing.Rabbi Michael Tzadokhttp://mekubal.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-70450654925299222742012-05-11T18:07:26.861+03:002012-05-11T18:07:26.861+03:00your comments on schachter were "2) Lonna goi...<i>your comments on schachter were "2) Lonna going to arkaot means that all who support her should be treated with contempt(that includes Rav Schachter)."<br /><br />Please clarify what "contempt" means. Does this mean he should be in cheirem and not be counted for a minyan or given a aliyah? Does this mean that he should be removed from YU? does this mean we should demonstrate outside his house and harass him and his family?</i><br /><br />It means that I am against anyone going to Arkaot without a proper heter from a B"D and that anyone supporting them should be placed in nidui in accordance with C"M 26:1. Which does not include demonstrations outside their homes.<br /><br />So long as you are willing to equally apply that answer to both Aharon Friedman and Rav Schachter, I have no problem.Rabbi Michael Tzadokhttp://mekubal.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-70929913171590259722012-05-03T12:08:31.723+03:002012-05-03T12:08:31.723+03:00You are attempting to justify the MANNER in which ...You are attempting to justify the MANNER in which you are doing something by explaining why/what you are doing.<br />Even *IF* you are the great protector of Torah and kavod shamayim and Gil is the great blasphemer - there is a way to conduct a debate le-shem shamayim.<br /><br />And if Gil is not an apikores whose entire aim is to undermine Torah, then how can you justify attacking him (or any Jew, or any human, for that matter) in the way you have?Sholemhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07737958709812213037noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-64785870063053002132012-05-02T13:54:57.110+03:002012-05-02T13:54:57.110+03:00It is unfortunate that you didn't bother clari...It is unfortunate that you didn't bother clarifying any of the substantive points I raised. Your comment about the Rambam being accepted halacha is simply wrong - that is simply not a legitimate difference of reading the material as is clear from many sources including the summary I recently posted from Rabbi Gartner. <br /><br />You insist in reading into my words "Wins" which simply indicated that I give greater authority to Rabbi Broyde than Rabbi Bechhoffer as proof that I am not interested in civil discourse?!. My comment that you "jumped into" - was simply stating the obvious because of your clearly incorrect understanding of the elementary issue of the status of the Rambam's psak. Likewise my reference to Rabbi's Broyde not mentioning your assertion about what is the norm - by asking rhetorically how could he be ignorant of this critical piece of information - you label as lacking in civility?! Furthermore you claim that Rabbi Broyde isn't interested in lemasseh but theory is also strange since the essay was requested to clarify the halachic basis le'maashe of ORA. In fact he does note in a footnote that the Charchakos of Rabbeinu Tam are practicsed in the Rabbinut system in Israel. Since he is intimately acquainted with the American system - which is what ORA is all about - it would have been appropriate to comment - "and it is the norm here in America". But he didn't. Nor did he say it was the norm in Modern Orthodox or chassidic beis din.<br /><br />You casually dismiss our concerns about ORA by saying "the only thing ORA innovated was getting organized" Rabbi Broyde could have saved himself the trouble of writing an article by simply stating, "ORA is nothing new it is just a better organized manifestation of harchakos of Rabbeinu Tam which is the norm in all batei dinim around the world." Rav Schachter apparently shares your view - but he does not bring any justification nor do you. Rabbi Broyde at least makes an attempt.<br /><br />I do concede that I should not have labeled your discussion with dayanim as a quick conversation. That was simply a deduction on my part from the way you presented your understanding of the issues.<br /><br />Bottom line - you claim ORA is a trivial issue of utilization of Rabbeinu Tam "of getting organized". I note that there is not a signal teshuva in Otzer HaPoskim which mentions use of public demonstrations to actively humiliate husband, family employer - in a plain case of ma'us alei - and this case probably isn't even a case of ma'us alei just I don't want to be married to him. There is not a single teshuva I have seen that says that Rabbeinu Tam's harchaos are valid even if they are not escapable by going to a different community. Please ask your rabbinical authorities - where these discussion may be found in the rabbinical liteature.Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-46075070287423460122012-05-02T12:43:56.533+03:002012-05-02T12:43:56.533+03:00I do not concede that. We have three points of dis...I do not concede that. We have three points of disagreement:<br /><br />1- We have blatantly different readings of the few sources we actually both mentioned. For that matter, of R' Broyde as well.<br /><br />2- What is the majority opinion in shu"t?<br /><br />3- What is done lemaaseh? Since R Broyde publishes theory, this isn't of his concern. The only thing ORA innovated was getting organized.<br /><br />And as for tone, I see civil discourse is impossible with you as well. "Jumped in the discussion without understanding" -- because I address a different point in one post? "Wins"? "Ignorant of such a critical piece of information"? "Gleaned from a quick conversation" -- who said it was quick? In fact, I spoke to friends, at length, since the first travesty of a post on this topic. That's how halakhah is discussed -- as though we were two kids in middle school? These reads more like your brother borrowed your account than the RDaE I know.micha bergerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11612144735431285113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-56502677015311480972012-05-02T12:30:40.611+03:002012-05-02T12:30:40.611+03:00tzoorba, no, a horaas chacham is not enough to go ...tzoorba, no, a horaas chacham is not enough to go to court. She needs a seruv and permission from beis din (before she goes.) If she would have those, they would be public.Binyaminhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03968756160388984974noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-28369722756204785872012-05-02T10:36:34.297+03:002012-05-02T10:36:34.297+03:00I gather you concede that based on the teshuva lit...I gather you concede that based on the teshuva literature - especially as discussed in Otzer Poskim your understanding is clearly wrong. That you jumped into this discussion without understanding what the issues were and just starting firing away.(Interesting to note that is what you claim you find distasteful in my brothers comments. It just depends on whose ox is being gored.)<br /><br />You are now claiming that your views are not based on an informed understanding of the teshuvos but rather that there is major disjoint between what the gedolim say in their teshuvos and the norm of what a beis din does in practice.<br /><br />Assumming this incredible assertion is true - On what basis do they reject or ignore the teshuvos? Further What beis din are we talking about? Do you assert that it is the norm for American courts? Israeli courts, Modern Orthodox courts - or all courts? Since you demonstrated a clear lack of awareness of the issues of type of pressure and the type of ma'us alei - it is hard to give your words any credibility. If you asked a dayan - "do we use pressure today" and he says yes - we don't know whether he meant we tell the husband he is wrong or we don't give him an aliya or whether we bring out the sound trucks - or we call the mafia.<br /><br />If in fact the facts on the ground are like you are saying - it is strange that Rabbi Broyde did not mention that in his defense of ORA. This is highly relevant to the thesis he presented and yet there is no mention of it is essay. Could it be that Rabbi Broyde is ignorant of such a critical piece of information that you gleaned with a quick conversation with some dayanim?! Or maybe you simply misunderstood or misinterpreted what you were told?<br /><br />Furthermore your understanding of Rabbeinu Tam is not that of Rabbi Broyde and the Shach, the Gro etc etc. So if I have to chose between Rabbi Broyde and Rabbi Bechhoffer - Rabbi Broyde clearly wins. Especially since he is consistent with the understanding of teshuva literature e.g., Rav Sternbuch. But this is a side issue.Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-70837927548870410722012-05-02T10:35:05.193+03:002012-05-02T10:35:05.193+03:00Micha,
Meet Stan. I hope you find him as pleasan...Micha, <br />Meet Stan. I hope you find him as pleasant as I have. Looks like you are off to a good start.Rabbi Michael Tzadokhttp://mekubal.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-58345239304879920812012-05-02T05:53:19.665+03:002012-05-02T05:53:19.665+03:00One of the 2 batei dinim are wrong. If the first b...One of the 2 batei dinim are wrong. If the first bais din is valid, the 2nd had no right to get involved. However, if the first bais din is doing shelo cehogen according to the 2nd bais din, why shouldn't they get involved?<br /><br />Which bais din issued the siruv?tzoorbanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-89880321277767009842012-05-02T05:10:07.472+03:002012-05-02T05:10:07.472+03:00Micha Berger your points make zero sense yet again...Micha Berger your points make zero sense yet again. Which majority holds le'kula? The YU biryonim? The reform? The Catholic Church? Who exactly?<br /><br />Mr Michael broyde wrote absolute hogwosh, he distorted and misrepresented and was shown up very, very glaringly. his lack of knowledge was particularly glaring.<br /><br />And his only defense is a whole op-ed about how is keeping quiet when he is not keeping quiet at all but because he has no defense he purports to keep quiet.<br /><br />As a purported rabbi and dayan, albeit even at the death bin of america, he should know that distorting is not acceptable.<br /><br />Your piece and rant against R Dovid E is entirely illogical. Next time run your piece by someone to make sure it has even a drop of sense in it.<br /><br />But now let's get to your camp's hypocrisy about running your oponents down. look at the filth Gil Student wrote about Rav Abraham without naming a single source of halocho, a single violation or a single person just a blatant attack.<br /><br />To quote<br /><br />"So I thank you for providing such a transparent lie to evidence your own lack of neemanus. Nothing else I could say could discredit your position any better than you just did."stannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-2566275493495210322012-05-02T04:06:35.343+03:002012-05-02T04:06:35.343+03:00"So yes you will find poskim who posken press..."So yes you will find poskim who posken pressure - such as calling the husband a sinner or advise him it is a mitzva to give a get. you will find other poskim in ma'us alei who used Rabbbeinu Tam."<br /><br />Thank you. This isn't grounds for your brother to run off on accusing MO of ziyuf haTorah even if I were wrong. It's the kind of ridicule I called leitzanus, the kind of divisiveness I would call sin'as chinam, and a dishonesty I would call sheqer. Your brother is trying to write off entire communities of shomerei Torah umitzvos and insult people whose shoes he isn't fit to polish, and you gave him a forum for such narrishkeit???<br /><br />Now on to the issues, since you blessedly stick to discussing the facts:<br /><br />I am saying puq chazi -- that "some" is lemssaseh the norm.<br />Do what I do -- go to the dayanim in the field and see how it's done regularly. (Many BD for geirushin are slow now; due to a machloqes in how to spell Iyar/Iyyar, some communities avoid gittn this month, when possible.)<br /><br />WADR, I believe you misunderstand how R' Tam is applied lemaaseh, as well as in the sources you cite. (RYGB isn't even sure you got R' Elyashiv himself down correctly, if you're referring to 3:344.) In any case, RYSE was on the BD with ROY when they did rely on RT. So it would seem that at one point in his life, he didn't think it created mamzeirus issues. Or I presume he would have left, as he eventually did over the Langer case. (I spoke to the third dayan's son, but unfortunately he was of no help.)<br /><br />As for the Gra, he is justifying R' Tam by showing how it's different than niddui. Not limiting R' Tam, but pointing out an inherent limitation in implementation. If the guy runs away, the niddui is still chal. But here there is no chalos, if he doesn't feel ostracized, there is no compulsion being applied. Not that harchaqah can't or shouldn't follow him, but that it doesn't in metzi'us.micha bergerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11612144735431285113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-22788019850113717992012-05-02T03:19:58.054+03:002012-05-02T03:19:58.054+03:00Tsoorba,
I don't know anything about this case...Tsoorba,<br />I don't know anything about this case but the public talk, which I am not prepared to comment on. Unfortunately, there are rabbis and they are known who do beat up husbands. But nobody has yet got them convicted, although Reb Elyashev shlit"o has, as I understand, issued a letter against them and their Gittin. There is tremendous money in beating up husbands, and even more money for making an annulmenet, something which is completely treife except for the most unusual circumstances. Things are going from bad to worse. Some of those who send women away from the marriage without a GET have the highest positions in Botei Dinim. It is a terrible problem.Dovid Eidensohnhttp://www.getamarriage.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-76471850138171417152012-05-02T01:24:14.312+03:002012-05-02T01:24:14.312+03:00Rabbi Berger - despite your bekius in Otzer HaPosk...Rabbi Berger - despite your bekius in Otzer HaPoskim and the Bar Ilan program - you simply don't understand either the views of the poskim or what we have been discussing here.<br /><br />The Rambam's view - according to the Otzer Hapokim - is that in a case of ma'us alei you can beat the husband into giving a get. Now you claim that is the "majority of Shu't and practicing batei din"?! Rabbi Broyde makes no such assertion. Nobody makes an assertion. Otzer haPoskim makes no such claim. Please look at Rav Gartner's review article - who Rav Broyde cites as an authority.<br /><br />You are also failing to notice how the word pressure is understood. To Rambam it means beating. While Rabbeinu Tam does permit pressure but it is explicitly social isolation. As Rav Sternbuch, Rav Yosef & Tzitz Eliezer and others point out - there was a period when the harchachos of Rabbeinu Tam weren't used - or at least not widely used. Rav Yosef says there is a need in our present generation to use them - on occasion when the beis din sees a need. Rav Sternbuch is more cautious<br /><br />An additional problem you have is that you are lumping together all reasons for divorce. A case of ma'us alei without justification is not the same thing as in impotent husband or a wife beater.The gemora lists cases where physical force can be used - no one disputes those cases. We are only concerned with ma'us alei period!<br /><br />So yes you will find poskim who posken pressure - such as calling the husband a sinner or advise him it is a mitzva to give a get. you will find other poskim in ma'us alei who used Rabbbeinu Tam. <br /><br />The issue of concern here is ORA's public and active humiliation against husband, his family and employer - no matter where he lives. Rabbeinu Tam - and Rabbi Broyde agrees - requires that the husband can escape by moving far away. ORA doesn't allow that. Rav Schacter says ORA is Rabbeinu Tam or less. Not a single teshuva in Otzer HaPoskim mentions Rabbeinu Tam being other than social isolation. Chazon Ish says no humiliation is allowed. So Rav Schacter ORA is a chiddush and an apparent deviation from all the cases discussed in the literature of Otzer HaPoskim. ORA does not claim support of Rav Yosef, or Rav Sterhbuch or even Rav Kaminetsky or Rav Belsky. The burden of proof is on ORA and Rav Schachter and that is what we have been discussing.Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-33390429385758171752012-05-01T23:51:52.197+03:002012-05-01T23:51:52.197+03:00I don't know what you mean by "which may ...I don't know what you mean by "which may be considered the Kofin of the Rambam which is absolutely forbidden". The vast majority of shu"t and actual practicing batei din do hold like the Rambam, and permit kefiyah when the husband isn't fulfilling she'eir, kesus and onah. I posted this two months ago, and I posted this (with some sample sources) in another comment chain two hours ago.micha bergerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11612144735431285113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-91550323301788178402012-05-01T23:32:22.086+03:002012-05-01T23:32:22.086+03:00Nu? What are the supposed conditions. Start ther...Nu? What are the supposed conditions. Start there. A siruv is not applicable because a valid B"D(to which the the wife did not object and ask for ZBL"A) made a ruling, and the husband deposited a Get in accordance to halakha. <br /><br />If you can show that a violation of halakha took place, then you will have something. However, the way this comes across is this. A woman goes with her husband to B"D. Doesn't like the outcome. Refuses to accept the Get. Goes to Arkaot. Then gets another B"D to place siruv. Actions like this make the B"D system a joke.Rabbi Michael Tzadokhttp://mekubal.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-57014913951111236032012-05-01T23:29:09.437+03:002012-05-01T23:29:09.437+03:00Stan
If you have thought that I was in favor of w...Stan<br /><br />If you have thought that I was in favor of what Rav Schachter is doing, you are wrong. I think it exceeds halakhic bounds. I just want to discuss what those halakhic bounds are.<br /><br />The Friedman-Epstein case is a failure on both sides.<br /><br />He went to Arkaot.<br />They embarass him publicly, which may be considered the Kofin of the Rambam which is absolutely forbidden. <br />There is no clear winner in that one.Rabbi Michael Tzadokhttp://mekubal.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-86897900899776452572012-05-01T21:16:20.984+03:002012-05-01T21:16:20.984+03:00Yes Dovid, someone who makes remarks to change the...Yes Dovid, someone who makes remarks to change the accepted normative practice in a sensitive areas such as divorce must stand the criticism. So why, when you are criticized on your claim that some new way of doing things is the only right one, do you ignore substantive objections and just insult those who disagree with you?<br /><br />What you're describing doesn't match Otzar haPosqim or the vast majority of teshuvos since. Again, R' Elyashiv bikevodo munach -- you don't need to choose between distorting or insulting the majority for holding as we always did, lequlah. You are trying to make the change.<br /><br />And you actually think you haven't defamed anyone? I love that line -- it so clearly shows a disconnect with reality. This post is about a siruv from a beis din a third party already dismissed as illegitimate, used to besmirch RHS. R' Broyde collected your use of “slither,” “brazen” “bald lie” and “completely wrong” against him. Then there is "part and parcel of the new Torah emanating from the modern YU rabbis."<br /><br />So I thank you for providing such a transparent lie to evidence your own lack of neemanus. Nothing else I could say could discredit your position any better than you just did.micha bergerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11612144735431285113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-4412641188672794752012-05-01T20:48:19.036+03:002012-05-01T20:48:19.036+03:00Sholem,
You attack me for saying to Gil Student:
“...Sholem,<br />You attack me for saying to Gil Student:<br />“I was surprised that Rabbi Schachter would say in public what he said, but he said it as a scholar who was ready to defend himself, at least, by his standards. But you, you get up and make ridiculous statements about halacha and you are completely wrong, are you not embarrassed? …Do you have sources for your fantasies? You are clearly out of your depth. And please spare me the soundbites.<br />Never mind the tone, which is enough to invalidate this comment regardless of who it is aimed at, but defaming Rav Shechter and Gil Student of all people?"<br />A scholar who makes remarks to change the accepted normative practice in a sensitive areas such as divorce must stand the criticism. But Gil Student wants to play the game and he is not qualified as R Sch is, so I told him so. This is not defaming anyone, it is arguing about a scholarly matter, and calling a spade a spade. Anyone who comes on this blog and starts prattling about things they are not equipped to argue about should think twice. I spent many decades studying with and talking to the greatest authorities in the world, and I have to listen to prattle from people who create halacha like bubbles.Dovid Eidensohnhttp://www.getamarriage.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-30163451990645294602012-05-01T20:35:35.604+03:002012-05-01T20:35:35.604+03:00Rabbi Michael Tzadok,
A get is nothing without ne...Rabbi Michael Tzadok,<br /><br />A get is nothing without nesina. She didn't make the bais din shluchei kabbolo. The allegation is that the beis din won't become shluchei holacha without exacting insufferable conditions. Why is a siruv not applicable?tzoorbanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-87717918706126151592012-05-01T20:31:34.653+03:002012-05-01T20:31:34.653+03:00well michael tzadok that is what schachter has don...well michael tzadok that is what schachter has done repeatedly. that is the issue not the epstein case which does have sickening humiliation and malbin pnei chavero ber'rabim.<br /><br />at least we have agreed on something.stannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-56643107201566174262012-05-01T19:36:47.882+03:002012-05-01T19:36:47.882+03:00explain the fake siruv when the wife was in arko&#...<i>explain the fake siruv when the wife was in arko'oys and a get was deposited in a valid bais din lifnim meshuras hadin.</i><br /><br /><b>EXACTLY</b><br />If a Get had been deposited with a B"D the marriage is done. There is no point in giving a seruv. Doing so requires some serious serious explaining, and honestly even if you were to gather the greatest halakhic minds of the generation they would have a hard time giving a valid defense of something that is so completely against halakha.Rabbi Michael Tzadokhttp://mekubal.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-75758202598193016982012-05-01T18:41:42.389+03:002012-05-01T18:41:42.389+03:00R' Daniel.... When will you delete your bother...R' Daniel.... When will you delete your bother's comments for the same reason? I mean, he's repeatedly name calling gedolei Torah. It's not like he has yet addressed a single citation posted in disagreement to his thesis. Just ridicule of people in whose shadow he wouldn't be noticed. (And whose pesaq he incidentally relies upon, probably every meal he eats...)<br /><br />Again, look how being matir agunos is typically done, and contrast to the drivel this blog has carried for the past 2 months. What is being posited as the only possible shitah, to the extent that this blogger and his brother allow motzi sheim ra against gedolei Torah who disagree, is not how the din was ever done. A valid shitah? Yes. But anything like rov posqim? Certainly not.<br /><br />You can't promote a shitas yachid by ridiculing some of the rabbim and ignoring the rest. The result isn't Torah, it's peritzes geder. And to be machmir on the back of others... that's Yahadus?micha bergerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11612144735431285113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-18340431146045053892012-05-01T18:32:02.175+03:002012-05-01T18:32:02.175+03:00tzoorba, you can be as big a talmid chochom as you...tzoorba, you can be as big a talmid chochom as you like and as humungus physically as you like. bess is not more knowledgable than belsky. explain the fake siruv when the wife was in arko'oys and a get was deposited in a valid bais din lifnim meshuras hadin.stannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-6459724483706810562012-05-01T18:30:45.976+03:002012-05-01T18:30:45.976+03:00Well thank goodness for that R Eidonsohn, yasher k...Well thank goodness for that R Eidonsohn, yasher koach and not a moment too soon. It's really painful trying to follow serious discussion when comments like those of stan pollute the waters. I'm all for impassioned shakla v'tarya but reading stan's comments feels like I'm eating treif.Bennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-75651208048600982452012-05-01T18:04:38.478+03:002012-05-01T18:04:38.478+03:00Observer,
Your comments are ridiculous when appli...Observer,<br /><br />Your comments are ridiculous when applied to Rav Bess. He is one of the top talmidei chachomim in the world and does everything al pi torah and not emotion. Their side has not been presented here from their Torah point of view.<br /><br />Shmuel,<br /><br />The author of rabbinic corruption is either Meir Kin or one of his cohorts. His statements appear to be pure motzi shem ra without any proof. This source doesn't prove a thing.<br /><br />Rabbi Michael Tzadok,<br /><br />If she went to court al pi horoas chochom she loses nothing. Do you know that she didn't get reshus to go?tzoorbanoreply@blogger.com