tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post3616174642826453909..comments2024-03-29T12:21:24.976+03:00Comments on Daas Torah - Issues of Jewish Identity: Daas Torah - Prohibition against clear and flesh colored stockingsDaas Torahhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comBlogger58125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-81256112919180552652013-08-26T16:43:14.607+03:002013-08-26T16:43:14.607+03:00I think the chazon ish is 60% between r. wosner an...I think the chazon ish is 60% between r. wosner and mishnah berurah<br /><br /><br />http://torahmusings.com/2011/11/tights/<br /><br />Other authorities disagree with the Mishnah Berurah. Most importantly, the Chazon Ish (Orach Chaim 16:8) leaves the debate unresolved. dovidnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-51970051427023755602013-08-18T10:46:19.097+03:002013-08-18T10:46:19.097+03:00non anonymous comments!non anonymous comments!Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-66445140790628347672013-08-12T21:57:30.701+03:002013-08-12T21:57:30.701+03:00Not sure a fedora can be called beged isha. Many f...Not sure a fedora can be called beged isha. Many fashions can migrate between genders. Men used to wear skirts. So if a man wears a skirt in Israel, it might be lo tilbash, but in Scotland, it might be quite normal.Ben MIkrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07122937371918515052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-10438937117148355382013-08-12T20:56:11.917+03:002013-08-12T20:56:11.917+03:00by definition, a qula does not defy halacha. a qul...by definition, a qula does not defy halacha. a qula is a psak within the halachic system, not outside of it. <br />Ben Waxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02798895161663664689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-18571729081971692562013-08-12T18:19:55.581+03:002013-08-12T18:19:55.581+03:00Yoni
There are various factors which could justify...Yoni<br />There are various factors which could justify, and/or even deem preferred, adopting a chumra. There are also many instances in which adopting a chumra is not correct and/or can even be harmful. This is a very broad and deep discussion, so you are correct is noticing that I didn't deal with this. Adopting kulos, on the other hand, if they defy Halacha, are forbidden altogether(unless in special situations such as Sakana etc.) L'maan Haemessnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-7727787872991178532013-08-12T05:49:03.828+03:002013-08-12T05:49:03.828+03:00we aren't talking about halacha but about how ...we aren't talking about halacha but about how groups interact.Ben Waxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02798895161663664689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-31521205294215884732013-08-12T04:49:45.587+03:002013-08-12T04:49:45.587+03:00Levi Straus was a secular non-Torah Jew. Nothing h...Levi Straus was a secular non-Torah Jew. Nothing he did, said or made qualifies as being JEWISH<br /><br />EXCEPT HIS JEWISH MOTHER who ensured him a Jewish neshamah. yoninoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-50672844727995700232013-08-12T04:45:59.219+03:002013-08-12T04:45:59.219+03:00HAEMESS,,,,not much of a concrete answer on why th...HAEMESS,,,,not much of a concrete answer on why those who adopt chumros do not need a halachic basis for it..yoninoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-49837738601267391772013-08-12T03:28:30.243+03:002013-08-12T03:28:30.243+03:00Levi Strauss was still a Jew. Cossacks were still ...Levi Strauss was still a Jew. Cossacks were still goyim.<br />I can only base my statements on what I heard from a Chassidic rabbi on the origins of the clothing. The caveat was that they made certain shinuim, so that they were not exact copies of the goyish clothing. <br /><br />Not sure it can become mandatory - would u also say that about Bris, which was forbidden by some Edom/Amalek types?Ben MIkrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07122937371918515052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-75901268356232766142013-08-12T02:08:55.162+03:002013-08-12T02:08:55.162+03:00Black hats (fedoras) may qualify as a begged isha ...Black hats (fedoras) may qualify as a begged isha due to the fact that it began as a womans hat. See the following from Wikipedia: 'A fedora /fɨˈdɔːrə/ is a felt hat originally designed for a woman but is now most commonly worn by men.'Henochnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-14503121801903512322013-08-12T00:56:30.701+03:002013-08-12T00:56:30.701+03:00There are numerous Sefardic halachic Seforim that ...There are numerous Sefardic halachic Seforim that indicate a Jewish woman must wear something similar to what is known as a buka. It was the common and required form of dress of Jewish women in much of the Jewish world outside of Europe.<br /><br />If I recall, R. Eidensohn cited some of the quotes from these seforim some time ago on this blog.Chaimnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-33456417659809870462013-08-12T00:54:23.598+03:002013-08-12T00:54:23.598+03:00Your attempt at humor fell flat. Levi Straus was a...Your attempt at humor fell flat. Levi Straus was a secular non-Torah Jew. Nothing he did, said or made qualifies as being Jewish.<br /><br />Furthermore, even if Jews were forced to do something due to outside pressure, once it becomes "a Jewish thing" it can become mandatory.<br /><br />And, finally, the standard Chareidi -- whether Litvish or especially Chasidish -- form of dress has NEVER been a non-Jewish mode of dress. Goyim never wore shtreimlech, kaputas, or any overall general mode of dress of us Jews.ranoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-84403132606000510142013-08-11T22:50:47.080+03:002013-08-11T22:50:47.080+03:00Ben Waxman
You say:
strange that no one demands t...Ben Waxman <br />You say:<br />strange that no one demands that people who adapt chumrot justify what they are doing with reasonable halachic discussions.<br /><br />Again, I repeat, two wrongs don't make a right. If you can justify your position, fine, but finding someone elses faults to exonerate yours is not correct.L'maan Haemessnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-53705121250372412462013-08-11T22:46:32.708+03:002013-08-11T22:46:32.708+03:00My apologies for the sharp words. The fact that yo...My apologies for the sharp words. The fact that you published them uncensored supports you integrity. Please accept my apology.<br /><br />To the issue at hand, I disagree with the way you deal with this issue using logical arguments rather than Halachic ones. You can't differentiate between lifestyles of people or their minhagim unless the question is whether or to not to be Machmir more than the Shulchan Aruch but to be more lenient than the Shulchan Aruch is not a possibility no matter who. Therefore the first thing needed is to know the Halacha. If you could offer an accurate english translation to Shulchan Aruch Even Haezer 21,1 you would be offering a real service to your readers to shed light on the basis of what the Halacha requires here.L'maan Haemessnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-72272487132526621862013-08-11T21:34:14.900+03:002013-08-11T21:34:14.900+03:00strange that no one demands that people who adapt ...strange that no one demands that people who adapt chumrot justify what they are doing with reasonable halachic discussions.<br /><br />we don't know everything but we do know that our mothers and grandmothers didn't feel the need to dress the way women did today.Ben Waxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02798895161663664689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-67011590621082208812013-08-11T20:00:42.369+03:002013-08-11T20:00:42.369+03:00I have a vort, which some may see as not serious, ...I have a vort, which some may see as not serious, but my sevara is based on Torah and logic, and historical fact.<br /><br />A Rosh Yeshiva I knew , who learned in Brisk, once said , regarding frum women who wear denim skirts - "rachmono l'etzlan".<br /><br />I will argue quite the opposite - there is a Torah prohibition, or several , on dressing in Haredi garb, especially Chasiddishe garb, whilst wearing denim and Jeans is in fact a genuine form of Jewish dress.<br /><br />The Torah prohibits dressing like goyim, and following goyishe minhag and chukkot. The chassidishe garb, which is also becoming adopted by non Hassidim, even Sephardim, is not only a goyish dress style, but it was enforced upon Jews by Amalek - such as Chielmnicki and the other mamzerim. It is enforced assimilation , by Polish and Russian Amalek, to make the jews look more "gentrified". As such it must be resisted. There is even grounds for yehareg v'lo yaavor, since it was a case of Kiddush Hashem. <br /><br />Denim jeans on the other hand is a Jewish form of dress. It was invented by Levi Strauss, it has the colour of techelet, which is also Jewish, and is a purely Jewish form of dress.<br /><br />it could be argued that Chassidic dress what dress of shmad, which is what occurred during the pogroms. But it has also become a form a gaavah - where a shtreimel, made from the skin of an impure animal, can cost thousands of dollars. <br /><br /><br /><br />Ben MIkrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07122937371918515052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-21666076759961883172013-08-11T19:18:29.156+03:002013-08-11T19:18:29.156+03:00L'maan Haemes - if you can't communicate i...L'maan Haemes - if you can't communicate in a more civil fashion I will not be allowing a more of your comments through.<br /><br />Dan Quinto - I did address the issue of "if there is no other place." The simple question is how far do you go with protecting a person seeing women. In Israel they were talking about setting up an alternative bus line - which would involve millions of dollars.<br /><br />The issue of protecting men from arousing stimulation is an ancient one. There are two basic approaches 1) To maximally shield men of contact with women. 2) To accept that as long as it is in the course of normal activities one comes across women - that is life and you learn to live with it.<br /><br />Rav Moshe Feinstein clearly held by the second view. He has a number of teshuvos related to this issue. Thus if you are on a bus - you don't sit next to a woman if there are other places. But if there are no other places - it is not a big deal to sit down next to a woman and Rav Moshe adds that if in fact it arouses you then don't do it - but a normal person doesn't react that way.<br /><br />Four illustrations. 1) Rav Scheinberg poskened in Israel that an Israel bachur should not go to a home for Shabbos meals if there were girls there. However it was alright for Americans since they were used to seeing girls.<br /><br />2) I once met Rav Dovid Feinstein in the downsstaris minyan of the Young Israel of Avenue K one Shabbos in Flatbush. After davening I got into a discussion with him about various issues in the Igros Moshe. In the mean time, the men had already gone upstairs for the kiddush and the women were now going up. I told him there was a second set of stairs that we could go up to and thus not walk behind the women. He said it wasn't necessary so we walked up behind the women. 3) When Rav Dovid was sitting shiva for his father, a woman hesitated to enter the room where he was sitting. He told her to come in - "This is the Feinstein mishpacha." 4) I was told there there were no mechitza's at the wedding of Rav Moshe's sons.<br /><br />there are many sources on this - some of which I have posted before. The more you avoid seeing women - the stronger your arousal is when you do see one. There is the germora "the greater a person - the greater is his yetzer." <br /><br />Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-29653306519804637292013-08-11T19:11:41.514+03:002013-08-11T19:11:41.514+03:00How could the Jewish people have survived if they ...How could the Jewish people have survived if they hadn't addressed this critical issue which is so deeply affecting all of our lives? Luckily for us, they are truly on the cutting edge and know exactly what issues matter most to the Jewish masses, and more importantly, what issues will change our society for the better and cause God to be pleased with us! <br /><br />Will this psak also affect the male Scottish Jews?Student Vnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-13183285253435029092013-08-11T19:11:00.544+03:002013-08-11T19:11:00.544+03:00Look I suppose we can trade stories and draw our o...Look I suppose we can trade stories and draw our own conclusions. Someone once asked a Rov whether he can enter an elevator with one woman inside. the Rov answered 'Why not?' He answered 'There is a woman alone inside!' The Rov said ' I think YOU should avoid that situation.' Similarly here, those of us who have no reaction to sitting in a train next to a complete stranger don't need to be concerned. Those who have a need should take adequate precautions.Henochnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-53784381194451914172013-08-11T18:40:28.855+03:002013-08-11T18:40:28.855+03:00Henoch
That's nice. So I'll tell you what...Henoch<br /><br />That's nice. So I'll tell you what I remember. By a Chasuna in a hall on a grand staircase, R' Moshe ZTZ'L was going down and a bunch of girls were coming up and he squeezed himself to the side and faced away from the girls until they passed him. I guess your mother was dressed and behaved completely B'tznius and to speak to her, at the appropriate physical distance, did not pose a problem. Sitting next to a Shiksa (or even an Isha Tznua) on the train with unavoidable physical contact is not the same thing. L'maan Haemessnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-65377783582887796682013-08-11T18:07:59.408+03:002013-08-11T18:07:59.408+03:00Just to echo your opinion about R' Moshe's...Just to echo your opinion about R' Moshe's opinion, when my family lived on the Lower East Side in the path of R' Moshe's walk home, he frequently stopped my mother to say hello and make small talk with her. I have numerous similar stories.Henochnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-71550693045142094822013-08-11T17:48:11.110+03:002013-08-11T17:48:11.110+03:00You write:
I think there's a problem with a ...You write: <br />I think there's a problem with a system where the guy who hangs around with someone who wants to replicate the Holocaust is still "one of us" but the short sleeved lady is a prostitute that deserves to be spit on.<br /><br />The answer is two wrongs don't make a right. If you can justify your position, fine, but finding someone elses faults to exonerate yours is not correct.<br /><br />You write:<br />we believe the more modest the better. Black stockings are better than sheer stockings. Why stop there? Dispense with the stockings and demand a dress that goes down past the ankles. If sleeves below the elbows is good and down to the wrists is better why not oversized sleeves that also cover the hands? If you're going to be logical you have to take things further and further and each new stop becomes the new "normal". At what point do you say: enough!<br /><br />The answer is we don't know everything. Chaza'l knew to evaluate what is needed and they gave us guidelines and it is our job to define their words to the best of our ability. A reasonable Halachic discussion to that end is acceptible and applauded. If you come wit a correctly based argument in Halacha, then you should be taken seriously, whether to agree or to present another correctly based argument in Halacha. But when you say whatever you want without a Halachic basis the you are stepping out of the line of Torah abiding Jews.L'maan Haemessnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-27652350862971106072013-08-11T17:41:01.703+03:002013-08-11T17:41:01.703+03:00You fail to account for Rav Moshe' statement i...You fail to account for Rav Moshe' statement in the teshuva of <b>"when there is no other place available."</b><br /><br />Yes, Rav Moshe clearly says it is preferable to not sit next to a woman if an alternative seat is available not next to a woman.<br /><br />Rav Moshe clearly would prefer an arrangement of separate seating.<br /><br />And arranging seating between men and women on different sides of the bus does NOT cost "millions of dollars".<br />Dan Quintonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-33464876458839401012013-08-11T17:39:30.589+03:002013-08-11T17:39:30.589+03:00I am a EDDIE FAN,,,,he just gets to the nitty grit...I am a EDDIE FAN,,,,he just gets to the nitty gritty of each issue.sima irhakodeshnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-79012850196815622642013-08-11T17:36:09.779+03:002013-08-11T17:36:09.779+03:00Daas Torah
I Quoted the words "IF THERE IS N...Daas Torah<br />I Quoted the words "IF THERE IS NO OTHER PLACE TO SIT"<br /><br />You deny that he says this. Until now I perceived you as a man with integrity, but now I see that when you have an agenda, as obviously this is an issue that you have feelings about, you lose your integrity.<br /><br />Furthermore, The way the Goyishe women dress in our times in the summer months, I don't believe that anybody with intellectual honesty would deny that most men would have some sort of Michshoil, at least B'machshovo. If you deny this, you are simply dishonest. Truthfully, according to the thinking that you are presenting, Chaza'l should not have written, "D'ika Dirca Achrina Rosho Hu" which is referring to a case where in the final analysis the man isn't looking, but he's a roshe just for not avoiding the situation. But you say that this is not a potentially harmful situation. You are wrong.L'maan Haemessnoreply@blogger.com