tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post3404215775638358793..comments2024-03-28T02:08:17.990+02:00Comments on Daas Torah - Issues of Jewish Identity: Witch hunt?! - Learning the sources of different hashkofosDaas Torahhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comBlogger3125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-21851129961480753102008-07-27T12:43:00.000+03:002008-07-27T12:43:00.000+03:00Daas Torah said..."DT replied: Your above statemen...Daas Torah said...<BR/><BR/>"DT replied: Your above statement is not consistent with your response cited below to my first posting on the subject which was simply as listing from a Breslav site of the statements Rav Nachman said about himself."<BR/><BR/><BR/>Bartley Kulp said...<BR/><BR/>"Outside of the Nach Nachers (who by the way, unlike the Moshichists in Chabad are not considered mainstream or taken seriously within the kehilla), I have not seen any extremism in Breslov. In fact they are not monolithic in their approach nor do they generally brag that there path is the only way. They also do not try to re-write history to the exclusion of other groups and tzaddikim that I know.<BR/><BR/>They also respect talmidei chachamim and poskim who are not Breslovers. They are also not insular in so far as they learn in other Yeshivot. They do not hold that they have all of the chochma that they need in their own frameworks and institutions. They are also waiting for the same moshiach as the rest of klal Yisrael. In Israel many of their leaders are respected in both the Chassidic and Lithuanian circles and they also participate in joint issues with other rabbonim.<BR/><BR/>Trying to tie Breslov in the cult of the week posting is a futile exorcise."<BR/><BR/>There is no inconsistancy between my statements. I wrote them in order as more posts and information were pouring in.<BR/><BR/>When made the first post regarding statements that Rav Nachman made of himself I asked myself where is Daas Torah going with this?<BR/><BR/>This quote can only invoke three perceptual responses. One that he is a mad man and how can a real tzaddik brag about himself to such an extent? Moshe Rabbeinu himself did not rave about what a hot shot that he was. Another possible thought would be that he never said these things and they are falsely attributed to him. The third reaction would be he was a great tzaddik telling it like it is for the benefit of his followers and other esoteric reasons.<BR/><BR/>I figured that you wanted to start a debate on whether or not Breslov being a rapidly expanding movement possesses a healthy hashgafa. There are many issues that one might have with the Breslov derech. Every group has its differences with pros and cons that could be debated ad fin um. However by posting this particular quote, I felt that you were opening a debate on whether or not Breslov is bordering on cult status. I did not feel at the time that this was a witch hunt.<BR/><BR/>I responded accordingly that I felt that they were not. I based this on the fact that they do not behave like one. I sighted the fact that they are not insular in themselves. Not in torah learning and not with relating to the greater community. They are not intimidated by other peoples philosophies and they avidly learn torah from other peoples perspectives. In fact they do this b'shitta invoking the quote from Shlomo Hamelech " Who is wise, etc..." This is unlike another group that I know. Heck, I wish that most of the torah world was like this including MO. They also do not revise history in order to brainwash their children and followers like another group that I know.<BR/><BR/>The fact that they work hard trying to turn people on to Rav Nachman is no worse than what the early followers of the Ba'al Shem tov and the Magid were doing. Granted this in itself is a pandoras box issue. <BR/><BR/>My side of the debate is that they are not a cult.<BR/><BR/>When you brought in some argument that some Joe picked as a source, I felt that we had left the domain of intelligent debate. Anybody can pick a fight with a group. This does not add importance to the issue. I have a deceased Aunt who thought that the introduction of Maijuana was introduced into the United States by Nazi agents who wanted to corrupt American society. She also thought that rockn' roll was a communist plot sponsored by the Soviets. Everybody has a right to an opinion. My Aunt did. So does rav Cohen. However bear in mind, he is not a community leader, he is not some important Rosh yeshiva and he is certainly not a gadol hador. To bring his dispute into an intelligent debate is akin to hurling cliches as a proof. Usually you bring in intelligent and important sources however I felt that by invoking Rav Cohen along with your other posts you were running with agenda blinders on. When this happens, usually a witch hunt insues.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-11944863881028785342008-07-27T11:33:00.000+03:002008-07-27T11:33:00.000+03:00Bartley Kulp said... What you are saying is gra...Bartley Kulp said...<BR/><BR/> What you are saying is granted by virtue of your first an third post on Breslov.<BR/><BR/> It was mixing it up with your second post invoking an incident that happened two years ago that I am suspecting a witch hunt. Again, any rosh kollel can pick any sort of fight with anybody that they want to. This does not mean that the world has to pay attention.<BR/>-----------------------------------<BR/>DT replied: Your above statement is not consistent with your response cited below to my first posting on the subject which was simply as listing from a Breslav site of the statements Rav Nachman said about himself.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Bartley Kulp said...<BR/><BR/> Outside of the Nach Nachers (who by the way, unlike the Moshichists in Chabad are not considered mainstream or taken seriously within the kehilla), I have not seen any extremism in Breslov. In fact they are not monolithic in their approach nor do they generally brag that there path is the only way. They also do not try to re-write history to the exclusion of other groups and tzaddikim that I know.<BR/><BR/> They also respect talmidei chachamim and poskim who are not Breslovers. They are also not insular in so far as they learn in other Yeshivot. They do not hold that they have all of the chochma that they need in their own frameworks and institutions. They are also waiting for the same moshiach as the rest of klal Yisrael. In Israel many of their leaders are respected in both the Chassidic and Lithuanian circles and they also participate in joint issues with other rabbonim.<BR/><BR/> Trying to tie Breslov in the cult of the week posting is a futile exorcise.Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-55709444543724850292008-07-27T11:17:00.000+03:002008-07-27T11:17:00.000+03:00What you are saying is granted by virtue of your f...What you are saying is granted by virtue of your first an third post on Breslov. <BR/><BR/>It was mixing it up with your second post invoking an incident that happened two years ago that I am suspecting a witch hunt. Again, any rosh kollel can pick any sort of fight with anybody that they want to. This does not mean that the world has to pay attention.<BR/><BR/>Again there was a letter signed by Rav Mordechai Eliyahu (the chief Rabbi of Safed from the dati leumi camp), Rav Bistritsky of Lubavitch and several other community leaders telling people not to get involved with this dispute. As well as other community leaders. I almost forgot to mention that Rav Keonig who is the head of the Breslov community told his followers to ignore the whole thing.<BR/><BR/>There had been no fist fights over this issue. There have been no public demonstrations or law suites. There is no fight over any community resources. Nobody is complaining that the Breslovers are taking over the city of Safed.<BR/><BR/>Looking through origional Breslov sources is legitimate. Bringing the sources that Rav Cohen has invoked is another. Bringing Ukrainian Admorim as his source that Breslov is dangerous is very ironic considering that there has been a question on the entire chassidic movement has had its legitimacy questioned. Also chassidim themselves were full of infighting. The fact that Rav Cohen envokes the memory of the Savraner Rebbe has no impact on me. He does not address any specific halachic issue that would warrent ex-communication. It is also ironic to me considering what the Kotzker said about Ukrainian Admorim. He called them "miracle workers in the land of the ignorant". This incidentally was never the Breslov way historically . <BR/>Analysis through Breslov sources is one thing. Bringing in a dispute from an otherwise unknown rav (Yirmiyahu Cohen) is another. His only claim to fame is that he picked a fight in public. Using him as a source is ridiculous. Anybody who has read the book the Bonfire of the Vanities by Zeev Wolf will understand what I am saying.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com