tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post3222949605107963194..comments2024-03-28T02:08:17.990+02:00Comments on Daas Torah - Issues of Jewish Identity: Abarbanel:Understanding Marriage through DivorceDaas Torahhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-802874231972770872012-12-12T05:44:14.731+02:002012-12-12T05:44:14.731+02:00I don't see any s'tirah. Abarbanel is sayi...I don't see any s'tirah. Abarbanel is saying that there has to be a way to void a marriage in cases of extreme, irresolvable conflict and total incompatibility. He's not saying that any conflict proves inherent incompatibility.chenyoknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-90829835848030057262012-11-09T08:45:27.103+02:002012-11-09T08:45:27.103+02:00"It seems a variation of beshert except moder..."It seems a variation of beshert except modern people think that one can have fights with a beshert."<br /><br />why not? yaacov fought with rachel. his reply to her was a sin (according to the ramban) but her yelling at him was not. was she not his beshert? even from the netziv that you posted it is clear that yitzhak should have had some arguments with revkah and the fact that she didn't feel able to be open with him was not good, not the ideal and not what others should aim for (even if it was hashgacha for yitzhak). an argument over someone's esav is definitely better than silence. Ben Waxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02798895161663664689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-91194790118505593512012-11-08T15:01:31.245+02:002012-11-08T15:01:31.245+02:00IndeedIndeedTzurahnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-39196728053132328062012-11-08T14:34:27.986+02:002012-11-08T14:34:27.986+02:00Abarbanel clearly views that compatiblity is innat...Abarbanel clearly views that compatiblity is innate and not learnedDaas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-83477309203011804202012-11-08T14:10:06.685+02:002012-11-08T14:10:06.685+02:00In terms of developing middos through marriage as ...In terms of developing middos through marriage as well as consciously developing a successful marriage relationship, Kuntres Hachesed of the Michtav M’Eliyahu figured strongly in many of the shmuzes and classes about marriage Needless to say, Michtav M’Eliyahu is a pretty late source.Tzurahnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-53078028537515435262012-11-08T13:58:19.289+02:002012-11-08T13:58:19.289+02:00A constant message I heard about marriage at yeshi...A constant message I heard about marriage at yeshiva (for Anglos, largely for BTs, which may be relevant) was that if done right, marriage is the ultimate middos developing program. The idea was that even with the most compatible of matches, there are differences that must be worked out, and a major goal of marriage was to develop one's self through learning to make an integrated unit out of two disparate people through compromise, being other-directed, and controlling one's ego. Therefore, working on oneself (with Rabbinical guidance, if not a therapist) in order to to improve the husband-wife relationship is not only possible, but it embodies the entire point of marriage. <br /><br />It's funny, b/c from what you've shown, these ideas appear to be nonexistent in the classical sources. <br />Tzurahnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-83771579786493775182012-11-08T13:55:16.496+02:002012-11-08T13:55:16.496+02:00This is an important topic - hope to have a post s...This is an important topic - hope to have a post soon on the topic.Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-21586507059756535872012-11-08T13:44:59.287+02:002012-11-08T13:44:59.287+02:00(cont'd) What is the source of 'beshert...(cont'd) What is the source of 'beshert'? What are it's practical ramifications, if any?dbnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-75390486606157937652012-11-08T13:41:39.106+02:002012-11-08T13:41:39.106+02:00What does 'beshert' really mean?What does 'beshert' really mean?dbnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-38126920355203967202012-11-08T13:04:05.180+02:002012-11-08T13:04:05.180+02:00It is the standard image of the AbarbanelIt is the standard image of the AbarbanelDaas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-57941162253576466062012-11-08T12:58:41.913+02:002012-11-08T12:58:41.913+02:00Not quite - all the good things in marriage are th...Not quite - all the good things in marriage are the result of an inherent compatiblity. If the good things don't happen that means that they weren't compatible. <br /><br />Missing from this [and every others source I have gone through] is the idea that compatiblity might be learned or developed through effort or therapy. It seems a variation of beshert except modern people think that one can have fights with a beshert.Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-77130627088343889042012-11-08T12:01:53.905+02:002012-11-08T12:01:53.905+02:001) he also says that divorce is better than on-goi...1) he also says that divorce is better than on-going fights. the idea that marriage is simply about bringing children to the world doesn't fit with this model.<br /><br />2) the abarbanel holds that a man has to work and finance the family, not just get involved in spiritual matters. <br /><br />3) ימצאו שניהם האהבה והשלום: sounds pretty modern to me.Ben Waxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02798895161663664689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-62393766711950133622012-11-08T11:43:59.321+02:002012-11-08T11:43:59.321+02:00This is an interesting point, and it marks a diffe...This is an interesting point, and it marks a difference between some other world views. Xtianity saw this bond of marriage as unbreakable, hence ignoring the explicit clause in the Torah which allows divorce. The Karaites, who rejected the oral law, were in some ways guilty of making up some new laws, hence they claimed that the "one flesh" created by marriage, makes in-laws legally like siblings, hence prohibiting marriage, eg of 2 brothers and 2 sisters. This is even after a divorce. This innovation was so damaging that it prevented many karaites from being able to find spouses, and had to be eventually repealed. Ben MIkrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07122937371918515052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-431886177150040102012-11-08T11:34:08.144+02:002012-11-08T11:34:08.144+02:00Is that really a true portrait of the "Abarba...Is that really a true portrait of the "Abarbanel" up to the left? It's from one of those illustrated kiddie story books.Recipients and Publicitynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-6554950128445758722012-11-08T10:17:46.618+02:002012-11-08T10:17:46.618+02:00Working on the translation - should be finished so...Working on the translation - should be finished soonDaas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-86153022272311545632012-11-08T10:17:15.393+02:002012-11-08T10:17:15.393+02:00Interesting point. Not sure that that is the accep...Interesting point. Not sure that that is the accepted view. However there is no question that a man can divorce a wife who does this minimum. Apparently the other obligation are ways to reduce the likelihood of the husband divorcing her.<br /><br />Apparently if she does not do the minimum it is appropriate for friends and community to suggest to him to get divorced and perhaps help him pay the kesuba.Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-37711562846493239332012-11-08T09:29:54.974+02:002012-11-08T09:29:54.974+02:00"as our Sages said in Yevamos (63), It is suf..."as our Sages said in Yevamos (63), It is sufficient for a wife if she simply raises the children and saves her husband from sin." So the minimum does not include anointing him with oil.Bunsa Bayisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-80063589567484774892012-11-07T23:53:50.368+02:002012-11-07T23:53:50.368+02:00the title makes sense actually, although I will ha...the title makes sense actually, although I will have to read this tiny print first, to see if it means what i think it does!Ben MIkrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07122937371918515052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-27763399548416106652012-11-07T18:07:08.035+02:002012-11-07T18:07:08.035+02:00In English, in a nutshell?In English, in a nutshell?Anoreply@blogger.com