tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post3065884930947401988..comments2024-03-28T02:08:17.990+02:00Comments on Daas Torah - Issues of Jewish Identity: Weiss Dodelson: Primary problem isn't how to make divorce easy or equitable - it is to convince couples to work on their marriageDaas Torahhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comBlogger76125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-54411754607958352872013-12-19T10:42:27.777+02:002013-12-19T10:42:27.777+02:00Look why I say that the idea that "divorce ca...Look why I say that the idea that "divorce can be avoided by withholding a get" fosters abuse. It creates an atmosphere where abused spouses find it difficult to walk away from abusive spouses.<br /><br />One abuse wife writes:<br /><br />"Why didn't I fight for my freedom sooner? Because of religion and abuse." Divorce is against God's way. Divorce means marrying another is adultery. Divorce means sin and unforgiveness. Divorce means I made a mistake and didn't follow God's path for my life. I didn't know that divorce because of abuse absolved me of all of that. I didn't understand that my fear of confrontation and what he kept telling me was just my simple misunderstanding of his needs, was actually because the relationship was abusive. I didn't understand that every time I was happy and he got angry or sullen, it was abuse. I didn't know that abuse had eight levels. I didn't know that I suffered on all levels. I didn't know anything beyond I was being a bad christian because I was hurting and seeking an answer that wasn't God's Way."<br /><br />I happens that she was not jewish, but I think that the result of an "anti-divorce climate" is the same in both religions. For women, it might be worse in judaism because of get-withholding.<br /><br />So her conclusion is:<br />"What I ultimately internalized, inadvertently, is that religion is also abusive."<br /><br />If you want to read the whole post in context:<br />http://peaceinpuzzles.blogspot.ch/Wellnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-65681190128081730312013-12-18T02:27:03.438+02:002013-12-18T02:27:03.438+02:00RYD,
You've only compounded my question, not a...RYD,<br />You've only compounded my question, not answered it. <br />If one side doesn't care that they're trapped, does that mean it is appropriate for them to trap the other party?<br />Further, how many of these cases that drag on for years, a la W-D, are about one party being madly in love and wanting Sholom Bayis? <br />If you want a divorce, but you don't give/accept a Get, it seems you are doing so for some רשעות purpose, no?Daniel Snoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-59491463982861594252013-12-17T16:47:52.560+02:002013-12-17T16:47:52.560+02:00The answer is that either spouse has the right, pe...The answer is that either spouse has the right, per RG as well as the later poskim, to demand -- yes DEMAND -- SHALMO BAYIS!! And wait as long as it takes. R. Yaako Denoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-32294312145127633742013-12-17T16:46:42.276+02:002013-12-17T16:46:42.276+02:00Daniel S:
For the same reason that Rabbeinu Gersh...Daniel S:<br /><br />For the same reason that Rabbeinu Gershom specifically gave wives the right to reject her husband's wish to divorce.<br /><br />So you have the same question on her: Her refusal to accept a Get will also leave her trapped.R. Yaako Denoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-63555097108583416212013-12-17T16:43:18.926+02:002013-12-17T16:43:18.926+02:00Who cares what secular nations think of us? As lon...Who cares what secular nations think of us? As long as we follow Hashem's will, that's all that counts. Even if the goyim deem Hashem's will to be "backward and misogynistic".R. Yaako Denoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-60065593362351846462013-12-17T16:41:29.762+02:002013-12-17T16:41:29.762+02:00Without the slightest doubt the deep corruption in...Without the slightest doubt the deep corruption in secular LAWS and courts are far far more fundamental than any problems in beis din.<br /><br />See my above five points.<br /><br />Wolmark/Esptein are no representitives of beis din. They are corrupt.R. Yaako Denoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-83034901104667072462013-12-17T03:26:54.135+02:002013-12-17T03:26:54.135+02:00Chochom fun di Ma Nishtana; read the letter from r...Chochom fun di Ma Nishtana; read the letter from ronni it says clearly that weiss was the one who signed and it was the dodelsons who backed out and now after weiss made consesions and she didn't keep her part of the deal she says she wants to start the negotiations from there so that she can get even more than what ronni gave her but if she would agree to what ronni said she should and not use these disgusting tactics she can have her get TOMORROW and for you to blame it now on weiss is the most ridiculous thing to say because he wants to get it finished while she wants to ruin him and is not too interested in getting a get as we see from all this that she is doing therefore yy is 100% correct that she is not an aguna shiminoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-53192213531260468822013-12-17T03:06:44.668+02:002013-12-17T03:06:44.668+02:00emes vshalom; what you are saying is absolutely fa...emes vshalom; what you are saying is absolutely false he never abused her even the little bit that she wrote in the post can't be believed because it is filled with lies and there is no way there is anything that happened that she didn't write in her post article so now stop with your lies and smear campaign against the innocentshiminoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-10455736226959114212013-12-17T01:51:51.814+02:002013-12-17T01:51:51.814+02:00While I realized there are serious problems in the...While I realized there are serious problems in the secular court system, the problems in the bais din non- system are actually deeper and more fundamental. Not because secualr judges are inherently more moral, but because the bais din non-system has no judicial protocols - at least none in practice that are even remotely enforceable.<br /><br />For example, a secular coirt judge who would render a decisiln without representation or the appearance from one of the parties to the case would be summarily removed from his position. Yet this exact thinv happens frequently in the bais hefkerot of people like epstein wolmark belsky et al and their c travesty of piskei halacha that render decisions allowing for kidnappimg and torure using cattle prods to force posul gittin without even speaking to the husband or even verifying that he exists!!! See the recent fbi sting and arrests.Corrupt American Batei Shekernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-73865519330675115112013-12-17T01:47:50.879+02:002013-12-17T01:47:50.879+02:00שו"ת הרא"ש כלל מג סימן ח
תשובה: על עני...<br />שו"ת הרא"ש כלל מג סימן ח <br /><br />תשובה: על ענין אשה הכתובה לעיל, החכם ר' יעקב אלפסי יש"צ, תשובתו. על ענין מורדת אין אדם צריך לימלך; כי בהכרחת נתינת גט, ראיתי לרבותינו חכמי אשכנז וצרפת מתרחקין עד הקצה האחרון מכל מיני הכרחות כפיית האיש לגרש בעסק מרידת האשה, כי נראה להם דברי רבינו ר"ת ז"ל וראיותיו עיקרים וראוי לסמוך עליהם. ואף אם היו הדברים מוכרעים, צריך אדם להרחיק מספק אשת איש ומלהרבות ממזרים בישראל. ואם ראו בדורות שהיו אחר חכמי הגמ', בימי הגאונים ז"ל בישיבות של בבל, שהיה צורך שעה בימיהם להסיע על דברי תורה ולעשות גדר וסייג, ותקנו שיגרש האיש את אשתו בעל כרחו, כשהיא אומרת: לא בעינא ליה לגבראי, כדי שלא תתלה עצמה בכותי ותצאנה בנות ישראל לתרבות רעה, וסמכו על זה: כל המקדש, אדעתא דרבנן מקדש, והסכימה דעתם להפקיע הקידושין כשתמרוד האשה על בעלה; אותה תקנה לא פשטה על כל הארצות. ואף אם יש מקומות שנהגו לכוף, לא נהגו מנהג זה באותן מקומות על פי תקנת הגאונים ז"ל, כגון שבשעה שתקנו הגאונים את התקנה ששליחוה לאותן המקומות וקבלו אותה עליהם; ואם כן, היה הדבר ידוע על פי הקבלה, דור אחר דור, היאך קבלו תקנה זו עליהם בצווי הגאונים. כי תקנה קבועה כזו, אם קבלוה עליהם, לא היתה עומדת לישכח מפי דורות הבאים. דוגמא לדבר: חכם אחד היה בארצנו, והיה שמו רבינו גרשום, תיקן תקנות טובות בענין גירושין, והיה בימי הגאונים ז"ל, ותקנותיו וגזרותיו קבועות ותקועות כאלו נתנו מסיני, בשביל שקבלום עליהם ומסרום לדור דור. אלא אני רואה, שבאלו הארצות רוב הגיונם בספרי רי"ף ז"ל, לפי שראו כפייה זו כתובה בהלכות, ונהגו ביש מקומות לדון כך. ועוד אני אומר, שהגאונים שתקנו תקנה זו, תקנוה לפי הדור ההוא, שהיה נראה להם לפי צורך השעה בשביל בנות ישראל. והאידנא נראה הענין להפך, בנות ישראל בדור הזה שחצניות הן, אם תוכל האשה להפקיע את עצמה מתחת בעלה, באמרה: לא בעינא ליה, לא הנחת בת לאברהם אבינו יושבת תחת בעלה, ויתנו עיניהם באחר וימרדו בבעליהן; על כן טוב להרחיק הכפייה. ויותר התימה הגדול על הרמב"ם ז"ל, שכתב, שאם אמרה: מאסתיהו ואיני יכולה להבעל לו מדעתי, כופין אותו לשעתו לגרש*ה, לפי שאינה כשבויה שתבעל לשנוי לה. ומה נתינת טעם לכוף האיש לגרש ולהתיר אשת איש, לא תבעל לו ותוצרר אלמנות חיות כל ימיה, הלא אינה מצווה על פריה ורביה! וכי בשביל שהיא הולכת אחרי שרירות לבה, ונתנה עיניה באחר וחפצה בו יותר מבעל נעוריה, נשלים תאותה ונכוף האיש, שהוא אוהב אשת נעוריו, שיגרשנה? חלילה וחס לשום דיין לדון כן. ורבי מאיר ז"ל, בעסקי מורדת, בענין הממון, היה דן בדינא דמתיבתא שיתנו לאשה כל מה שהכניסה, אבל לא היה כופה לגרשה. וקודם שיחזירו לה מה שהכניסה לו, היה מצוה להחרים אם שום אדם השיאה עצה זו, כדי להוציא מיד בעלה מה שהכניסה לו. וכשהיה נראה לו שהיה ערמה בדבר, לא הי*ה מצוה להחזיר אפילו מה שהכניסה לו, ולא היה דן כלל דין דמאיס עלי, אם לא שתתן אמתל*א לדבריה, למה אינו מקובל עליה; או שרואין בו שהוא מכלה הממון, אז הי*ה מצוה להחזיר לה מה שהכניסה לו. ומדבריו לענין הממון, כ"ש לענין כפיית הגירושין, דיש לחוש לערמה ולנתינת עיניה באחר; ואשר יבחר וירחיק הגירושין; הרי כתבתי לך בענין כפיית גט מורדת. אמנם, בנדון זה, ספר לי אחיה אמתלאות שנותנת למרידתה, ואתה דיין בדבר הזה, תחזור על הדבר אם יש ממש בדבריה. ואם דעתו לעגנה, ראוי הוא שתסמוך על מנהגכם בעת הזאת, לכופו ליתן גט לזמן. ועוד, כי זאת כבר נתגרשה, אלא שנולד ספק בתנאי, ואם היה בא להחזירה, היתה צריכה להתקדש. ויפה דנת דיתן לה מה שהכניסה לו, ששים זהובים שהודה בהם. וזה הביא לך כתבך חתום. ומן ההוצאה, תעשה כפי מה שיראה לך, ולכל הפחות יפרע שכנגדו חצי ההוצאה. ושלום, אשר בן ה"ר יחיאל זצ"ל. <br /><br />Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-20896612971160635152013-12-17T00:27:33.597+02:002013-12-17T00:27:33.597+02:00@DT - if Well's simplistic statement is indeed...@DT - if Well's simplistic statement is indeed a false dichotomy, can you kindly elaborate on how to understand both the authority of a Rav in Germany to make such gezeirot, and the context they were made within?Ben MIkrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07122937371918515052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-27804241467822739682013-12-17T00:16:11.585+02:002013-12-17T00:16:11.585+02:00The more we find out, the more it looks like chisu...The more we find out, the more it looks like chisul cheshbonot (payback time/ revenge bela'az). The Kotlers together with long time R' Moshe Feinstein refusniks against the R' Dovid and R' Ruven and the Weiss'es. Kol Kore=> Cease and Desist=> Arbitration R' Gruenwald => downed by a heat seeking missile from fakewood=> O RA...vechozer cholila in and endless loop like the kaf hakela. Bad blood ike beinayhu, and then they cry Wolf. And that is what's WITHOLDING. What a shame, all at the expense of Chilull Shem Shamayim. CHISSUL CHESHBONOT CRYING WOLFnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-24367449991460554462013-12-16T23:10:25.154+02:002013-12-16T23:10:25.154+02:00RDE, I believe you dodged my question. In the post...RDE, I believe you dodged my question. In the post Rabbeinu Gershom world, how can a husband leave his wife getless -- with full halachic sanction -- considering how it will trap him too? (Yitz, your comment is therefore misplaced...my question assumes she hasn't a right to a get.)<br />What I'm starting to believe is that RG understood well that the byproduct of his takkana would be the impossibility of a husband withholding the get. RDE, why punt this issue to our time; maybe it's already the facts on the ground?<br />Of course, this leaves the question re: the later poskim. If this were so, why would they ignore it? Or, how do they envision the husband freeing himself if he chooses not to give the get?Daniel Snoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-7029145677334405332013-12-16T22:42:23.337+02:002013-12-16T22:42:23.337+02:00It is statements like these that confirm to the se...It is statements like these that confirm to the secular nations that we are a backward and misogynistic religion.reuvennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-12494298152028967522013-12-16T22:17:29.429+02:002013-12-16T22:17:29.429+02:00Well your make a false dichotomy and show you have...Well your make a false dichotomy and show you have no understanding of rabbinic decrees and its relationship to TorahDaas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-17072202285584879372013-12-16T20:37:35.847+02:002013-12-16T20:37:35.847+02:00source? what case are you talking about?source? what case are you talking about?Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-79045127973803395722013-12-16T20:27:28.262+02:002013-12-16T20:27:28.262+02:00Well: Following Halacha does not foster domestic a...Well: Following Halacha does not foster domestic abuse. Halacha demands allegations be proven and not accepted at face value of the claim.Nat Sowernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-66626976725431134072013-12-16T20:26:15.334+02:002013-12-16T20:26:15.334+02:00According to Rambam, bais din can force a wife aga...According to Rambam, bais din can force a wife against her will to live with her husband.Nat Sowernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-81500896768067202622013-12-16T18:07:31.951+02:002013-12-16T18:07:31.951+02:00http://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/2012/05/agnuna-wha...http://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/2012/05/agnuna-what-are-possible-solutions.htmlDaas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-3006431755451132662013-12-16T18:05:22.772+02:002013-12-16T18:05:22.772+02:00It is on the blog search the archivesIt is on the blog search the archivesDaas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-30362535579160050252013-12-16T17:14:27.969+02:002013-12-16T17:14:27.969+02:00That's exactly why I say that your position fo...That's exactly why I say that your position fosters domestic abuse.Wellnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-21460453372915095232013-12-16T17:13:01.455+02:002013-12-16T17:13:01.455+02:00"Meaning, a woman who doesn't want to liv..."Meaning, a woman who doesn't want to live with her husband should not be forced to."<br /><br />"Halacha disagrees with you."<br /><br />Another troll who uses this blog to spread falsehoods about halacha in order to make halacha look bad...<br /><br /><br />Wellnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-27868475648448637002013-12-16T17:12:22.082+02:002013-12-16T17:12:22.082+02:00Since, as you said Rabbeinu Gershom implemented, a...Since, as you said Rabbeinu Gershom implemented, a wife may reject a divorce, similarly and at least equally a husband may reject giving a divorce.MGnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-3714246538046273792013-12-16T17:10:28.024+02:002013-12-16T17:10:28.024+02:00RDE: Where is this Rabbi Gartner article you refer...RDE: Where is this Rabbi Gartner article you refer to?MGnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-37166343442900576762013-12-16T16:56:35.972+02:002013-12-16T16:56:35.972+02:00EVS: She and they may claim anything they want. Th...EVS: She and they may claim anything they want. They may even claim he would beat her with a stick every afternoon at 12:00, 7 days a week. But they must prove their claim to beis din for their claim to be worth anything. And if they don't prove it, the claim has no standing and is not believed. And they have never proved it or even claimed it in beis din. So it has no bearing.MGnoreply@blogger.com