tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post2120776927265320029..comments2024-03-29T12:21:24.976+03:00Comments on Daas Torah - Issues of Jewish Identity: Rav Yitzchok Isaac Sher's view of marriage - the importance of human love (regarding criticism of Gerrer Takanos/Esti Weinstein)Daas Torahhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-55018443787147953422015-04-05T21:42:55.704+03:002015-04-05T21:42:55.704+03:00There is a worthwhile essay by R Shagar zt"l ...There is a worthwhile essay by R Shagar zt"l entitled "mitzvat onah" that appears in the collection "vayikra et shmam adam,"newpseudonymnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-64115527307886568742015-03-31T15:09:08.598+03:002015-03-31T15:09:08.598+03:00Haven't read it. According to the reviews on A...Haven't read it. According to the reviews on Amazon they present it as a how to do it manual - without any specific Jewish Hashkofa. However It is interesting to note that Rav Moshe Feinstein suggestings reading secular books on the topic just before the weddingDaas Torahhttp://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-29241358445730405782015-03-31T04:43:34.585+03:002015-03-31T04:43:34.585+03:00Chofetz chaim rabbi zaks a lonely litvish outpost ...Chofetz chaim rabbi zaks a lonely litvish outpost in chassidish monsey (RDE recently told me he's the only litvak left in his neck of the monsey woods.)<br />Telz where the munkatcher rebbe learned. MTJ plenty of chassidim. Don't know much about the others. Ner israel a strictly american yeshiva with no real affiliation.MiMedinat_HaYamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-67699606405110549782015-03-30T23:35:38.235+03:002015-03-30T23:35:38.235+03:00Of course you disagree with me - I know that alrea...Of course <i>you</i> disagree with me - I know that already! I was submitting an easy method of verification by way of a לא חכים ולא טפש, whereupon you would discover - in my opinion - that your original statement does not lend itself easily to comprehension. That is especially true if it is supposed to be reflecting Dr Brown's view, or Rotstein's view.Chaimnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-68855755542313230902015-03-30T23:17:16.719+03:002015-03-30T23:17:16.719+03:00@Chaim this was my answer to you which you claim t...@Chaim this was my answer to you which you claim the average person would not understand. I disagree with you<br /><br />@Chaim - it is discussed in Dr. Brown's article - please read it page 34<br /><br />Rotstein goes on to explain that only the person who has reached the highest<br />degree of spirituality is allowed to follow the practice—associated with<br />Isaac Luria, the “holy Ari”—of hugging and kissing his wife during intercourse,<br />113 since only such a refined person can “raise” or restore to their<br />divine source the “holy sparks” that have fallen into the “lowly” domain of<br />corporeal sexuality. For the ordinary person, on the other hand, “corporeal<br />acts are very dangerous, as it is extremely difficult to transcend [the domain<br />of] materiality, and very great care is required to avoid remaining in<br />it.”114 With these claims R. Rotstein is effectively inverting the conventional<br />view, advocated in all the traditional halakhic sources, whereby those who<br />are permitted physical intimacy with their wives are the ordinary men, while<br />members of the intellectual and spiritual elite are allowed to refrain from it!<br />Rotstein corroborates his conclusion with what he presents as the lesson of<br />experience:Daas Torahhttp://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-27585710828989513382015-03-30T23:16:34.707+03:002015-03-30T23:16:34.707+03:00We still got NeR Yisroel, Chofetz Chaim, Shaar Hat...We still got NeR Yisroel, Chofetz Chaim, Shaar Hatorah, Telse, Riverdale & MTJ, a few real Litvish places in existence that shun the Chassidish infiltration.stanley schumskynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-44037492480901769932015-03-30T23:10:33.415+03:002015-03-30T23:10:33.415+03:00Rabbi E, with all due respect - please show your c...Rabbi E, with all due respect - please show your comment to an innocent bystander and ask him/her if they can make head or tail of it.Chaimnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-62629967835507753462015-03-30T22:45:56.902+03:002015-03-30T22:45:56.902+03:00@Chaim I don't know what is bothering you. I m...@Chaim I don't know what is bothering you. I made a statement, I backed it up with a large quote from the Brown article. It was clear from the quote what I was saying and who I was citing.<br /><br />I am sorry if it is not clear to you. If you reread my comments it should be obvious.Daas Torahhttp://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-33021585825993600692015-03-30T19:08:33.468+03:002015-03-30T19:08:33.468+03:00I did read the Brown article. But I still don'...I did read the Brown article. But I still don't understand your statement. I'm sorry - are you presenting Rotstein's argument - which differs with the normative understanding of most Gedolei Yisrael as Brown has noted - as that of the Arizal?!<br /><br /><br />Then you should have written:<br /><br />"According to Rotstein it is only a metaphor for the greatest tzadikim like the Arizal- not the common people."<br /><br /><br />And what does this mean: "For the common people you need other sources." According to whom? Acc. to most Gedolim, for normal people it is a Mitzvah, and acc. to Rotstein it is to be refrained from - he obviously doesn't believe in any "other sources" which would indicate to the contrary.Chaimnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-41409303791070009472015-03-30T16:24:15.438+03:002015-03-30T16:24:15.438+03:00@Chaim - it is discussed in Dr. Brown's articl...@Chaim - it is discussed in Dr. Brown's article - please read it page 34<br /><br />Rotstein goes on to explain that only the person who has reached the highest<br />degree of spirituality is allowed to follow the practice—associated with<br />Isaac Luria, the “holy Ari”—of hugging and kissing his wife during intercourse,<br />113 since only such a refined person can “raise” or restore to their<br />divine source the “holy sparks” that have fallen into the “lowly” domain of<br />corporeal sexuality. For the ordinary person, on the other hand, “corporeal<br />acts are very dangerous, as it is extremely difficult to transcend [the domain<br />of] materiality, and very great care is required to avoid remaining in<br />it.”114 With these claims R. Rotstein is effectively inverting the conventional<br />view, advocated in all the traditional halakhic sources, whereby those who<br />are permitted physical intimacy with their wives are the ordinary men, while<br />members of the intellectual and spiritual elite are allowed to refrain from it!<br />Rotstein corroborates his conclusion with what he presents as the lesson of<br />experience:Daas Torahhttp://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-33610382246735156422015-03-30T16:16:13.749+03:002015-03-30T16:16:13.749+03:00Thanks, Ben. For those who don't want to sign ...Thanks, Ben. For those who don't want to sign up to academia.edu, it is easire to just download the article from this website:<br /><br />https://huji.academia.edu/BBrownChaimnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-8034698930908981162015-03-30T16:08:33.330+03:002015-03-30T16:08:33.330+03:00"According to the Arizal it is only a metapho..."According to the Arizal it is only a metaphor for the greatest tzadikim - not the common people.For the common people you need other sources."<br /><br /><br />Rabbi E, could you explain this statement? I'm not coming to disagree with you - I simply don't understand what you are saying. (Also, a source for the Arizal would be helpful.)Chaimnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-88344322830767264892015-03-30T15:17:50.532+03:002015-03-30T15:17:50.532+03:00Please translate into English
"As for the fi...Please translate into English<br /><br />"As for the first part of your response, it is not in and of what the great Litvisha Gedolim had to say on the subject, they stated what they stated and it is what it is,"<br /><br />RaP your understanding simply doesn't match reality. Please read Dr. Brown's article - especially on the issue of what the Kabbalistic or mysitcal understanding.<br /><br />The Kabbalistic and Mussar sources are used on both sides of this argument. Both sides have to deal with human nature as well as the halacha and many apparently contradictory sources in Chazal, Rishonin and Achronim.<br /><br />The big challenge to the Chassidic world is in fact not Kabbala but halacha as derived from Chazal and canonized in Rambam, Tur and Shulchan Aruch<br /><br />Bottom line - this is a big issue involving big people with differing understandings - but the consequences have to dealt with properlyDaas Torahhttp://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-79943087121124426232015-03-30T15:05:31.452+03:002015-03-30T15:05:31.452+03:00@RaP - you are forgetting that World War II ended ...@RaP - you are forgetting that World War II ended quite a few years ago. The letters of the Chazon Ish and Steipler came out in the 1950's The teachings of gedolim in opposition to the Chassidic view have been going on for many years - -including Lakewood and the Mir in Yerushalayim. Bottom line the Litvaks are not rudderless and have not been ruderless. Even the Chassidic view as a mass standard is relatively new.<br /><br />So bottom line - your theroy doesn't match historic fact.Daas Torahhttp://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-79081827123418105522015-03-30T14:58:00.558+03:002015-03-30T14:58:00.558+03:00Thank you - the reply is very rich in many ideas, ...Thank you - the reply is very rich in many ideas, and I am particularly in agreement that the "frum" view can sometimes be non - Jewish.Eddienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-70240608498536250692015-03-30T13:52:29.064+03:002015-03-30T13:52:29.064+03:00anyone wanting to read doctor brown's complete...anyone wanting to read doctor brown's complete article can do so:<br /><br />https://www.academia.edu/4919509/Kedushah_The_Sexual_Abastinence_of_Married_Men_in_Gur_Slonim_and_Toldos_AhronBen Waxmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-29830106017724683322015-03-30T13:51:21.125+03:002015-03-30T13:51:21.125+03:00As for the first part of your response, it is not ...As for the first part of your response, it is not in and of what the great Litvisha Gedolim had to say on the subject, they stated what they stated and it is what it is, and they do not need haskomas or praise, or adjectives about "bravery", in that I agree with you. However there is a divergent world view when it comes to matching this up to what is thought about and done on the subject of sexual behavior between man and wife among many in the Chasidisha velt. Generally speaking it is true to say that the words used in the literature you quote here can be mainly directed at the Chasidisha velt's practices. But there are many ironies, such as Chasidus in general is derived and based on Jewish mystical traditions (Zohar, Ari, Tanya and others) that are filled with very mature and adult treatments of the subject of sex and sexuality as metaphors in the way Shir HaShirim uses them. This has often been a big pitfall for them as they get too much into the sexualized understanding of the Divine that simply put gets them into trouble. While the Litvak mesorah which is less Kabbalistic and more scholastic and Talmudic while not dwelling on sexualized teachings, and one would imagine they would therefore be the more prudish ones, are actually the more sensitized to the actual real needs of females as expressed in the words of the Litvish Gedolim who are stressing the importance of genuine tenderness, sex manners for men, and respect for the female's needs, body and simply erotic desires that need to be respected and that in turn will have the real fruits of smart and great holy children, something I found eye opening.<br /><br />So the "brave" part is that this view is going head to head with the current view among big chunks of the Chasidish world where they do not practice what you have published and the jury is out whether they are the better off for it (as they would no doubt claim) or are suffering from it by having all those "foolish" and "inferior" children that just create more problems when they in turn go out into the world and spawn their own progeny that is then the source of abuse and all the stuff you are trying to counter and fight against. So what you have now published runs very deep and it is indeed very brave as far as I can see.<br /><br />The second part of your response I understand and agree with, but I am taking it in the very simplistic sense of just reading the words as many good Jews do who do not regard themselves as "tzadikim" by any measure yet the words of Shir HaShrim just resonate for them and openly talk in poetic metaphors that are purely sexual and erotic in nature befitting any reading of any type of such poetry in any language that any serious person would recognize for what it is. In any case, "ve'ameich, kulam tzadikim" every Yid and Jewess and Jewish home is a Mikdash Me'at with its Keruvim in the main bedroom, where loving parents create loving children etc on Shabbos and at holy times when the wife goes to the Mikva and then comes home and the husband in Mekayem his duties towards her, hopefully with all due sensitivity and respect for her person, erotic and sexual needs and desires to be a happy woman with him as her true love and spouse.<br /><br />I am being a little wordy due to the sensitivity of the subject.RaP_Commentarynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-20060225477072004662015-03-30T12:56:54.372+03:002015-03-30T12:56:54.372+03:00@Eddie the issue raised is an on going one. Prof B...@Eddie the issue raised is an on going one. Prof Brown presents it as a major difference between the Chassidic and the Litvak world. Ironically it is the Chassidim who have the concept of "serving G-d through the material i.e., eating - who become very frum and unnatural on this topic. The Litvaks - at least some of the major gedolim - clearly assert that human beings need to be able to express love to other human beings - and thus be psychological healthy - in order to serve G-d properly.<br /><br />Even with the Litvische world - it is an on going fight. I was told recently that the letters of the Steipler and Chazon Ish are not easy to get in Lakewood anymore - even for married men.<br /><br />The Sefer Mishkan Yisroel - which has hasmakma of major gedolim including Rav Eliashiv - was written specifically to counteract the infiltration of the "frum" - basically Chrisitain view - into the mainstream of Orthodoxy.Daas Torahhttp://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-65203957307775270322015-03-30T12:50:04.669+03:002015-03-30T12:50:04.669+03:00@RaP - while it is important it is not brave. How ...@RaP - while it is important it is not brave. How can reporting the view of Rav Scher which is also the view of the Chazon Ish and the Steipler and Rav Wolbe - brave?<br /><br />Furthermore you are ignoring the traditional understanding of Shir HaShirim. According to the Arizal it is only a metaphor for the greatest tzadikim - not the common people.For the common people you need other sourcesDaas Torahhttp://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-13281559321394979812015-03-30T01:59:39.435+03:002015-03-30T01:59:39.435+03:00very nice, one of the great leaders of Mussar sho...very nice, one of the great leaders of Mussar shows his true Hochmah.<br />A few weeks ago DT asked for sources on obligations on the man's side to serve his wife, and i mentioned the mitzvah of onah. I think this post goes further to support that claim (even if it is only something inside the bedroom).Eddienoreply@blogger.com