tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post1578788381773346671..comments2024-03-29T12:21:24.976+03:00Comments on Daas Torah - Issues of Jewish Identity: Chabad - Is the Rebbe Moshiach/A Chasid speaksDaas Torahhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comBlogger41125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-59968479677815838292008-09-10T03:29:00.000+03:002008-09-10T03:29:00.000+03:00Arthur:I am not sure about the purpose of your las...Arthur:<BR/><BR/>I am not sure about the purpose of your last response. There are two important answers to that post. <BR/><BR/>One, the anonomous talmid chochom and kind hearted fellow who tried to admonish you to do teshuva stated that he was NOT the anonomous poster who made that remark. Tzig can easily confirm this. Either way, his tone was at all times respectful. Yours became increasingly worse and, to this date, you refused to retract your comment. <BR/><BR/>Second, I still do not see any post wherein anyone, anonomous or otherwise, learned or ignorant, ever made a remark about the LLR wherein he was degraded as being worse than Hitler. Yours is the most evil comment I have ever seen in my entire life. I can safely state that I have never seen a frum Jew write this way about a Gadol Hador.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-8498434597128161592008-09-09T13:36:00.000+03:002008-09-09T13:36:00.000+03:00The letter is an interesting history of the Chabad...The letter is an interesting history of the Chabad approach to Moshiach and I hope that this (almost) rational approach represents a significant number of Chabad Chassidim.<BR/><BR/>There is another issue that the author misses and that is the way that the Chabad redefinition of the requirments of Moshiach has given ammunition to Christian Missionaries.<BR/><BR/>I even found a booklet written for christian missionaries telling them how to use Chabad as an argument to encourage Jews to adopt foreign beliefs.<BR/>I posted extracts of the booklet here:<BR/>http://betweenjerusalemandtelaviv.blogspot.com/2008/09/chabad.htmlMichael Sedleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02684514303911193073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-23403421692080753812008-09-07T23:00:00.000+03:002008-09-07T23:00:00.000+03:00YY,I'm not going to bother with answering your abo...YY,<BR/>I'm not going to bother with answering your above allegation that I am a liar because as mentioned above,ein ledovor soif.I would suggest however that you go back to the original blog where I committed the so called crime and review the various posts that led to it.Here is the the post on that blog in "honor" of Gimmel Tammuz ,the Rebbi ZTL's yohrtziet that started it all.<BR/>"Today is Reb Shneur Kotler zatzals yahrtzet. it is also the day that the shabsai tzvi of the 20th century was finaly silenced B'H. its sad how many yidden are brainwashed into that cult." It speaks for itself.<BR/>As far as I am concerned this is my last post on this subject.Enough with the accusations and recriminations.Arthurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17405098837405331655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-43683531750680019762008-09-07T19:22:00.000+03:002008-09-07T19:22:00.000+03:00Arthur,Posting the letter was a positive thing whi...Arthur,<BR/><BR/>Posting the letter was a positive thing which helped my crisis of faith in the rebbe; being dishonest about what exactly happened when you wrote that Rav Shach is worse than Hitler undermined the purpose of the letter. If you would have been grown up about it, now, if not then, there would be nothing to complain about.<BR/><BR/>The fault lies entirely on you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-72305364840718063372008-09-05T21:48:00.000+03:002008-09-05T21:48:00.000+03:00The purpose of my posting of the above letter on t...The purpose of my posting of the above letter on this blog was to bring some modicum of intelligent and respectful discussion about Chabad and the meshichistin.Apparently I was wrong.All it did was open a pandoras box of all kinds of recriminations,accusations and turned into a slugfest ad ein lidovor sof, and I'm talking about both sides of the fence including myself.Had I the opportunity to change things I would have never posted it.Arthurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17405098837405331655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-23864082895684646072008-09-05T15:29:00.000+03:002008-09-05T15:29:00.000+03:00There are sources and seforim that do cite that so...There are sources and seforim that do cite that some pupils considered their Rebbe to be possible candidates to be mashiach. Sdey Chemed brings this. Chassam Sofer writes that people were meshaer and assessed about someone who pissibly would be the mashiach. But where is the source for "hoping" (or praying) that someone would be Mashiach (which is G-d''s choice)? Do we find such a paralel about Moshe or Dovid (where there an election capign who would be chosen by G-d)?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-72223331893698384492008-09-05T09:39:00.000+03:002008-09-05T09:39:00.000+03:00yossef said... "A question to the writer of letter...yossef said... <BR/><I>"A question to the writer of letter: Where in our tradition do find that followers of a Leader teacher or Rebbe "hope" that their Rebbes and mentors be Mashiach?"</I><BR/><BR/>This idea is, for the most part, an invention of Chabad. The entire premise, that we should even consider identifying our particular rebbeim as moshiach is absurd.<BR/><BR/>The talmidim of R' Akiva certainly did not consider him a possible candidate for moshiach. That did not detract from his stature in their eyes!<BR/><BR/>The same is true for the innumerable great gedolim troughout history who, for one reason or another, were never even possible candidates to be moshiach.<BR/><BR/>We seek out rebbeim and gedolim based on their gadlus in Torah and yiras shamayim, nothing more.LazerAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10463856909521693296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-19567190094238117162008-09-05T07:07:00.001+03:002008-09-05T07:07:00.001+03:00>>I'm waiting for those who so arrogantl...>>I'm waiting for those who so arrogantly use such language against the Lubavitcher Rebbe to be condemned in this way and banned from posting in this blog!<BR/><BR/>Arrogance? Chas Ve sholom. The good faith comments about the Rebbe's errors were made respectfully and with great mesiras nefesh and yiras/ahavas hashem.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-6100063096381532222008-09-05T07:07:00.000+03:002008-09-05T07:07:00.000+03:00>>I'm waiting for those who so arrogantl...>>I'm waiting for those who so arrogantly use such language against the Lubavitcher Rebbe to be condemned in this way and banned from posting in this blog!<BR/><BR/>Arrogance? Chas Ve sholom. The good faith comments about the Rebbe's errors were made respectfully and with great mesiras nefesh and yiras/ahavas hashem.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-6912810029517762822008-09-05T07:03:00.000+03:002008-09-05T07:03:00.000+03:00Your view is wrong, as a matter of FACT. The rebb...Your view is wrong, as a matter of FACT. The rebbe is not the leader of all Jews, never was, not even close. There is nothing wrong or obnoxious about a fact. And if reality is beneath you, it demosntrates a great deal about you, no one else. Stop trying to be pretend that you are a victim when you and your ridiculous beliefs are to blame. <BR/><BR/>If you find someone finding the rebbe's assertion that Tanya is the pnimius of Torah and someone who did not learn is jealous of little children learning the same incredulous "obnoxious", then the problem is yours. You only expect that others see where you are coming from, but when perfectly obvious examples of profound ethnocentrism are raised, you play victim. Frankly, that's just cowardly, and, in the final analysis, intellectually dishonest. <BR/><BR/>The only thing beneath a response is, in the end, you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-54652223243008265362008-09-05T06:34:00.000+03:002008-09-05T06:34:00.000+03:00A question to the writer of letter: Where in our t...A question to the writer of letter: Where in our tradition do find that followers of a Leader teacher or Rebbe "hope" that their Rebbes and mentors be Mashiach?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-4434749267246879632008-09-05T06:31:00.000+03:002008-09-05T06:31:00.000+03:00The real fact is that although a very positive phe...The real fact is that although a very positive phenomenon is seen by this letter as it is actually posted in some of the websites, it must be stressed: a) such an article would NOT appear in an official magazine like Kfar Chabad, b) the writer remains anonymous and would NEVER be able to write it if he wrote his real name. No matter how much twisting the apologists do the fact remains that no one of importance has the courage to put his name and signature. And the number of comments who criticize the article far outnumber those who silghtly justify or slightly agree. This is the reality of the real numbers in L. But let us hope that actions like this or other letters (depsite hteir problems as pointed out by many commenters) will bring forth some of the needed "Change" in that system.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-47195855795408119862008-09-05T06:26:00.000+03:002008-09-05T06:26:00.000+03:00"Could the author show me where the Rebbie said th..."Could the author show me where the Rebbie said that in the instance of Mashiach the halacha is like the Rambam".<BR/><BR/>He clearly wrote in LS that the Halacha is like the Rambam in issues where no one argued with him. (Btw, being that when there are disagreements with Rambam the Halacha may not be like him, therfore it is understood that when the Rebbe wrote about Navi outside of Erettz Yisroel he was not necessarily referring to literal Halacho being that many Rishonim argue with Rambam on this point).<BR/><BR/> "The Rebbie did cite the Radva and ritvah who state that techiyas hamesim for some will come before the time of the Mashiach'.<BR/><BR/>This is a gross misinformation many Lubavitchers make that is either dishonest or comes from lack of learning: LR did not say that Rambam holds that there will not be techiyat hamessim prior the times of redemption of yemot hamashiach. On the contrary, when he proved that according to Rambam mashiach cannot be from the dead (LS35) he clearly took into considration that possibility and still REJECTED the possibility for mashiach to come the dead according to Rambam. SO citing ritva and radvaz is a non sequitor in our discussion.<BR/><BR/> "The Rebbie stated many times that the rambam in the Yad holds that techiyas hamesim will come after the time of the M,"<BR/><BR/>Not in LS 35 where he proves that Rambam holds mashiach is not from dead. There he clearly states that even if there will be resurrection in these times still mashiach cannot be from the dead according to rambam.<BR/><BR/>" He did send mixed signals on this subject regarding the previous Rebbie".<BR/><BR/>Not true! He either spoke in cryptic terms but when explained what he meant he clerly ommitted theliteral meaning of the term! (that he is referring to the fct that he will be mashich kpshutoy).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-9977639993151145232008-09-05T06:15:00.000+03:002008-09-05T06:15:00.000+03:00"Chabad Chasidim believe that the Chabad Rebbeim t..."Chabad Chasidim believe that the Chabad Rebbeim teach the word of Hashem. Toras haChasidus is part of the Torah which is from Hashem. So therefore alienation from the words of the Chabad Rebbeim is a form of alienation from the words of Hashem. Thus, it is a form of chillul Hashem. That's the author's point in his letter to a fellow Chossid. Got it??"<BR/><BR/>Didn't get it. Since the idea of Rebbe is to teach the word of G-d, it is even more incumbent that when one wants to impart the dangers of a certain path, he should invoke how this leads to the desecration of G-d and in the long article almost no reference is made to this! Why talk about the medium to the Almighty and not mention the Almighty Himself!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-49546014949024146722008-09-05T04:02:00.000+03:002008-09-05T04:02:00.000+03:00The disrespectful tone of the last posts (which se...The disrespectful tone of the last posts (which seem to be posted by the same person) makes them beneath deserving a response, which is aside from the fact that I've already responded to the points in them (which have been rehashed here yet again, along with the blatant misquoting).<BR/><BR/>My point to Lazer was not that he should adopt this view, but simply that he should see where Chasidei Chabad are coming from.Yehoishophot Oliverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16906934928426540018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-86675662541679202752008-09-05T04:01:00.001+03:002008-09-05T04:01:00.001+03:00Stop this silly ranting. Besides for the few peopl...Stop this silly ranting. Besides for the few people who read this blog there are very few people who understand the arguments set forth. Stop fooling yourself into believing that these arguments are those made by others. It is simply not true and really is above most people’s comprehension of the inyan.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-9434513932600374482008-09-05T04:01:00.000+03:002008-09-05T04:01:00.000+03:00Stop this silly ranting. Besides for the few peopl...Stop this silly ranting. Besides for the few people who read this blog there are very few people who understand the arguments set forth. Stop fooling yourself into believing that these arguments are those made by others. It is simply not true and really is above most people’s comprehension of the inyan.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-71937788992270491122008-09-05T02:18:00.000+03:002008-09-05T02:18:00.000+03:00>>"His opinions on Chabad Torah, as the...>>"His opinions on Chabad Torah, as they are not within the realm of Torah, are fine" <BR/><BR/>This is offensive? The rebbe suggests that the Chazon Ish missed the boat and is jealous of little boys learning Tanya because Tanya is included in the word Talmudo in Chazal's famous dictum, Ashrei mi shebo lkan, v'chu, and is the pnimius of Torah, and that's fine according to Mr. Oliver. This means that everything else the CI is not the pnimous of Torah--kol hatorah kulah. But to suggest that something else is not the pnimius of Torah, Torah, or, at least, that some anonomous writer's ramblings about what Chabad Chassidus, at least, is not Torah--that's just disgusting, right?<BR/><BR/>You are so incredibly misguided and hypocritical, its simply astounding. Own up to the Rebbe's mistake, or accept that people would make the same "analysis" on your "Torah"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-47370886332219878302008-09-05T02:14:00.000+03:002008-09-05T02:14:00.000+03:00>>Again, you see it this way because you see...>>Again, you see it this way because you see some sort of dichotomy. We do not, because we do not see Chasidus as an individual group or the Rebbe as an individual leader. We see Chasidus as the pnimiyus of all Torah and the Rebbe as the leader of all Jews. You are starting from a different premise, so you are led to a different conclusion. <BR/><BR/>Its nice that you percieve Chassidus as the pnimiyus of Toah, but that does not mean that it is. Similarly, when the Rebbe suggested that Tanya is the pnimius of Torah, and that even the greatest talmid chochom of his time is jealous of children who learn it because he did NOT learn Tanya (on the contrary, avers the rebbe, he was AGAINST it--a TOTAL fabrication), that does not make his statement correct. Even more outrageous is the notion that the rebbe is the leader of all Jews. I am sure you mean this in the "ruchniesdike" world, right? Because, as far as the facts are concerned, he has an extremely limited impact on charedi judaism outside of chabad. He is not my leader, the leader of my community or of the great yeshivos in which I have learned. No one in the entire yeshiva world benefited in any way from the Rebbe. And they never will. So go on insisting with your view that he is the leader of all jews. But don't expect others to look at you askance and wonder aloud what is your problem and why is it that the rebbe would teach you to think in such a way. <BR/><BR/>In fact, based on my readings and the learned comments made by some here and in other scholarly books, it would appear that the rebbe was a kind of reverse misnagid. This is a very objective reading of the rebbe's defense of a drunkard who made an inappropriate comment about the helige CI, zy"a. Someone who does not learn Tanya is missing the boat; well, according to you that's just extolling the Tanya. Someone saying that one who does not learn Nefesh HaChaim is missing the boat--well, that's just racist, according to you. <BR/><BR/>So, there you have it. Some people see the rebbe as saying offensive things, having what appears to be reverse-misnagid opinions which are taken as fact by his chassidim. Those comments are found to be outrageous and perverse, and someone who comments that its outrageous and perverse is like suggesting the rebbe is worse than hitler. <BR/><BR/>"To my knowledge,no one on this blog has compared"<BR/><BR/>there have been comments of similar tone against the Rebbe that I have no intention of reposting.<BR/><BR/>There has not been one comment similar in tone or nature against the rebbe on this blog. I would add that Arthur was incredibly brazen when a very good hearted, thougtful fellow who clearly knows a lot more Torah than Arthur encouraged him to do teshuva and withdraw such an insane statement, Arthur became even more belligerent and hateful, and, in the process, revealed an incredible level of hatred toward anyone who is not within Chabad.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-12095663938975103552008-09-04T23:36:00.000+03:002008-09-04T23:36:00.000+03:00I am increasingly amazed at how obtuse some of the...I am increasingly amazed at how obtuse some of these comments can be.<BR/><BR/>Arthur said... <BR/><I>"...we in Chabad are used to this situation where people "demand" of us to explain the various iniquities attributed to us."</I><BR/><BR/>You are the one who posted a lengthy essay describing and attempting to explain the current crisis of messianism in Chabad. Are you now upset that we read the article?<BR/><BR/>Unlike at CrownHeights.info, the response here has been pretty positive. My own comments were somewhat critical, but I was pleased that at least someone in Chabad is willing to put his (anonymous) foot down.<BR/><BR/><I>"Believe me it must have taken a lot of guts for this father to put his thoughts in writing ,knowing the backslash he would get from the meshichistin."</I><BR/><BR/>Yes, of course, the ordinary people who represent the dominant shita in Chabad today are not able to express their opinions because the tiny minority of crazies won't let them. Can you please explain how a tiny minority of crazies has been able to silence the overwhelming majority of Lubavitchers?<BR/><BR/><I>"Lazera wrote much of the feedback the author received on CH info was negative,which of course proves that most Lubavitcher are meshichistin."</I><BR/><BR/>No, read what I actually wrote. I never said a word about the relative size of the Mishichistim in Chabad. I have no idea. In fact, I don't think even Lubavitchers know because the non-Meshichistim are afraid to say anything. <BR/><BR/>My point was quite clear. Despite the claims of some Chabad apologists, the article and the response proves that the crisis of Chabad messianism is quite real.<BR/><BR/><I>"It's about time for the yeshiveshe,Litveshe,chreideshe oilom to stop "demanding" of Lubavitch to explain their derech and minhagim to everyone's satisfaction."</I><BR/><BR/>Discussion of the divergent derachim and minhagim in Klall Yisrael is engaged in throughout the Torah world. Nobody questions such activity, which is, in fact, part of limud haTorah.<BR/><BR/>I suspect you are using "derech and minhagim" as cover for criticism of Chabad messianism, which has been criticized for a long time. I fail to see how you can fault non-Lubavitcher's for criticizing a development which you yourself acknowledge is serious problem.<BR/><BR/>Are we supposed to "butt out" because "it's none of our business"? Hundreds, possibly thousands of Jews are careening wildly off course, and we're supposed to ignore it? Perhaps you don't feel that we non-Lubavitchers are part of your version of the Jewish people; we however, have not given up hope on you.<BR/><BR/>Moreover, the longer the problem continues, the more relevant it becomes for those of us outside of Chabad who need to assess the halachic status of Lubavitchers who are serving religious functions in our communities. This is a profoundly unpleasant situation, but as the problem progresses and the supposed majority of non-Meshichist Lubavitchers continues to be a "silent", it is becoming more and more difficult for the non-Lubavitch Torah world to avoid coming to some very unpleasant conclusions.<BR/><BR/><I>"Lets not make demands on others to correct their perceived avlehs before we correct our own."</I><BR/><BR/>There is a strange, almost schizophrenic, nature to Arthur's comments. On one hand, he posts a lengthy essay that clearly describes a serious problem in Chabad. Then he acts as if there is no problem - "perceived avlehs" - except in the imaginations of non-Lubavitchers.<BR/><BR/>P.S. Arthur, if you really think that a nasty (and unjustified) comment about Chabad Torah is the equivelant to calling a major Torah leader "worse than Hitler", then perhaps we truly are no longer following the same religion.LazerAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10463856909521693296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-2386639398824560392008-09-04T23:32:00.000+03:002008-09-04T23:32:00.000+03:00"In the face of a chillul Hashem of this magnitude..."In the face of a chillul Hashem of this magnitude, no other frum group would be busy obsessing about the loss of prestige to their particular group and its leader. They would be distressed about the dishonor caused to all of Torah Judaism."<BR/><BR/>Again, you see it this way because you see some sort of dichotomy. We do not, because we do not see Chasidus as an individual group or the Rebbe as an individual leader. We see Chasidus as the pnimiyus of all Torah and the Rebbe as the leader of all Jews. You are starting from a different premise, so you are led to a different conclusion. <BR/><BR/>"To my knowledge,no one on this blog has compared"<BR/><BR/>there have been comments of similar tone against the Rebbe that I have no intention of reposting.Yehoishophot Oliverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16906934928426540018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-88564777113836267312008-09-04T23:15:00.000+03:002008-09-04T23:15:00.000+03:00Lazera said"To my knowledge,no one on this blog ha...Lazera said<BR/>"To my knowledge,no one on this blog has compared the LLR to Hitler OR EVEN USED LANGUAGE THAT IS SlIGHTLY SIMILAR". Then your knowledge is somewhat limited.<BR/>"His opinions on Chabad Torah, as they are not within the realm of Torah, are fine" This is of course eloquent praise of Chabad Torah.Arthurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17405098837405331655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-82047363638232648482008-09-04T22:58:00.000+03:002008-09-04T22:58:00.000+03:00Levi said... The "village voice" reported an in...Levi said...<BR/><BR/> The "village voice" reported an interview with Professor Berger who is now claims that Lubavitch has theological underpinnings to state that the Rebbie is the mashiach and he can lead from the beyond. He has abrogated most of his book. Perhaps, we can learn a lesson from him and stop attacking one another.<BR/><BR/> Maybe, a whole post can be devoted to this. Perhaps, Dr. Berger can be interviewed again. Clarification is in order.<BR/>=============================<BR/>these are the words cited in the VV article.<BR/>===========================<BR/><BR/><BR/>"It violates common sense and makes the movement seem insane," says David Berger, a historian and the author of /The Rebbe, the Messiah, and the Scandal of Orthodox Indifference/. "They think it turns people off to Hasidic teaching, and it's a sincere concern."<BR/><BR/>Berger, himself an observant Jew, says that while researching the book, he watched videos that were filmed at 770 after the rebbe's death. In one, people cleared a path across the synagogue to allow the invisible rebbe to walk to his chair. "When people tell me that the kind of scene I just described is crazy," he says, "I react by saying that there are millions of people in the world who are perfectly normal and intelligent people, who believe that the priest is holding a piece of bread and that this bread is the real presence of Jesus of Nazareth."<BR/><BR/>With the Lubavitchers as with Christians, messianic beliefs are nuanced, Berger says. He thinks that most Luba- vitchers, either secretly or openly, do believe that the rebbe is the messiah, but that only a small fraction believe he is still alive.<BR/><BR/>That contention has made Berger the target of severe attacks in the Lubavitch world. And though he staunchly opposes the movement, he says that there are strong theological underpinnings both to the messianism and even to the "seemingly crazy assertion" that the rebbe really didn't die.<BR/><BR/>"Judaism says that in every generation, there is a righteous person that connects the world to the divine energy," he explains. "If there is no leader, the world would actually cease to exist. So the fact that the rebbe has died and that the world continues to exist is a conundrum to them, and it leads them to believe that the rebbe must not have died. But even people who believe he did die find this to be a challenging question." They resolve it, he adds, by opining that we're living in strange times, or that the rebbe is still providing the divine connection from his grave.Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-19480469465766134252008-09-04T22:48:00.000+03:002008-09-04T22:48:00.000+03:00Rabbi Yehoishophot Oliver said... "Chabad Chasidim...Rabbi Yehoishophot Oliver said... <BR/><I>"Chabad Chasidim believe that the Chabad Rebbeim teach the word of Hashem. ... So therefore alienation from the words of the Chabad Rebbeim is a form of alienation from the words of Hashem. Thus, it is a form of chillul Hashem."</I><BR/><BR/>I think my point, in this regard, has been made sufficiently in my previous comments. In the face of a chillul Hashem of this magnitude, no other frum group would be busy obsessing about the loss of prestige to their particular group and its leader. They would be distressed about the dishonor caused to all of Torah Judaism.<BR/><BR/><I>"As for the (alleged) impact upon the way people look at all Orthodox Jews, the reason the author doesn't discuss that is (not because it's not important to him ch"v, but) because that impact is much less. People out there know that there are many sects within Orthodox Judaism. The main disgrace caused by bad behavior is to the name of one's own subgroup, especially when it is done in the name of that subgroup."</I><BR/><BR/>Well, it is true that there is an increasing general recognition that Chabad is becoming something quite distinct from mainstream Orthodox Judaism. In a sense, I guess that sums up the whole nature of this tragedy.<BR/><BR/><BR/><I>"I'm waiting for those who so arrogantly use such language against the Lubavitcher Rebbe to be condemned in this way and banned from posting in this blog!"</I><BR/><BR/>To my knowledge, no one on this blog has compared the LLR to Hitler or even used any language that is even slightly similar.LazerAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10463856909521693296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-23078944351725659362008-09-04T22:27:00.000+03:002008-09-04T22:27:00.000+03:00The "village voice" reported an interview with Pro...The "village voice" reported an interview with Professor Berger who is now claims that Lubavitch has theological underpinnings to state that the Rebbie is the mashiach and he can lead from the beyond. He has abrogated most of his book. Perhaps, we can learn a lesson from him and stop attacking one another.<BR/><BR/>Maybe, a whole post can be devoted to this. Perhaps, Dr. Berger can be interviewed again. Clarification is in order.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com