Monday, May 5, 2008
A more realistic understanding of the conversion crisis
Bright Eyes responds to RaP:
RaP makes a very interesting case.
The Supreme Rabbinical Court in Israel has concluded in what is certainly a thoroughly analyzed decision (50 pages worth) that Rabbi Druckman's conversions were performed illegally.
RaP says that if we do not accept these illegal conversions, then bad physical things will likely happen to the Jewish people (such as Civil War), and specifically to the people who are responsible for making and supporting these rulings, "the life you save, may be your own."
Put another way, the goal of RaPs argument is to cause Jews to accept illegal conversions (aka goyim) for the sake of their own protection.
This way of thinking is the basis of strong arm organized crime globally. This is the whole logic behind "protection money."
I am in the U.S. and have intentionally stayed ignorant of Israeli politics for my entire adult life because I have observed that the more one knows about it, the more one argues and gets upset.
However, one cannot avoid hearing the well informed argue, and from what I gather Bedatz, the Rabbanut, and the RCA can all be described as opposite corners of a triangle, and that neither Bedatz nor the Rabbanut accept the other as an authority.
So, the notion that the Supreme Religious Court's ruling of last week was somehow orchestrated by people at Bedatz seems absurd.
Also, I don't think that Rabbi Eidensohn posted the Syrian Takana in order to endorse it. Throughout these last few months, Rabbi Eidensohn has posted various aspects to the question of how conversion is viewed and handled and opened the topic to discussion. The Syrian Takana was one of many viewpoints posted.
There were so many viewpoints presented, it is clearly impossible for any one human being to embrace them all.
RaPs general thrust seems to be that of the Religious Humanist, which is that popular sentiment should be the decisor of religious law and practice.
While he makes a nice defense of Rabbi Druckman as a "mainstream" Rabbi, this does not exempt Rabbi Druckman from needing to follow Halacha. If a court comprised of properly competent judges has determined that his Conversion proceedings have not followed the law, Rabbi Druckman's public standing and reputation is not a factor in the difference between legal and illegal.
In the Christian world, senior clergy, such as the Pope, are "infallible" and above reproach. Not so in Judaism.
It alarms me to see RaP judging entire segments of the Jewish people using Christian standards of "good and evil."
He has made it quite clear that anyone who he sees as not being open enough, such as the "Haredim", Syrians, and various Hasidic groups, are all defined as bad because of this characteristic. He also labels them as such based on false information.
Again and again he accuses the Syrians in particular of not accepting converts even though he is repeatedly presented evidence that they do indeed accepts genuine converts.
RaP makes it appear as though Rabbi Eidensohn and Bedatz (whose Rabbonim are really just easily controlled puppets of Rabbi Eidensohn) has done a bad thing by not publicizing the list of Rabbis who received private mail from Bedatz. In other words, because Rabbi Eidensohn would not smear many Rabbis who have done nothing wrong (remember, the letters spoke as warnings against future behavior, and were not judgments against past behavior), he is one of the bad guys!
His argument makes it clear that he considers nobody to be a religious authority. He likes the RCA and says they would never accept Bedatz's standards, yet ignores the fact that the RCA has already accepted those standards by agreeing to the newly published standards of the Rabbanut (who in this case appears to be in agreement with Bedatz).
Regarding the RCA, he says that they "would not accept the standards of the BADATZ and it would drive a wedge with the American communities where the real problems of intermarriages and fuzzy conversions exists." In other words, he feels that the RCA will not accept any ruling that disqualifies intermarriages and "fuzzy" conversions. If I were an RCA Rabbi, I would be highly offended!
People who support Halacha and disqualify fraudulent conversions are now like Nazi's to him! That's quite a viewpoint. Since when is "breach of contract" a racial issue? All Jewish communities accept converts. RaP would have us believe otherwise.
RaP has made it clear that in his view what Judiasm today really needs is a moratorium on practicing and enforcing Jewish law.
Ethereal concepts such as subjective individual ideas of right and wrong for him take precedence over Halacha.
I have spent many years fighting missionaries from other religions. They try to cause ordinary Jews to think like RaP does. I have heard no fewer than ten known missionaries disguised as Orthodox Rabbis say "You can wear the black coat and grow a big beard, but if you don't have love in your heart you aren't practicing Judaism" in order to cause ordinary people to disregard everything that legitimate religious authorities rule on. He's saying those same words in a different way. Instead of discussion/debating the Halachic sources and logic of decisions which make him uncomfortable, he just erases the credibility of everything with broad brushstrokes. Somehow he speaks for all Mizrachim, Hassidim, Ashkenazim, Sephardim etc....are each of us really just cookie-cutter clones of other who share our religious and culinary culture as RaPs would have us believe? I don't think so. I know Ashenazi Rabbis who say that the Syrian Takana is the only way to save the Jewish people, and I know Syrians who say the Takana is the most repulsive thing any Jewish group has ever done.
We're all individuals.
From my point of view, RaP is preaching rather than debating, and his message is dangerous.
RaP makes a very interesting case.
The Supreme Rabbinical Court in Israel has concluded in what is certainly a thoroughly analyzed decision (50 pages worth) that Rabbi Druckman's conversions were performed illegally.
RaP says that if we do not accept these illegal conversions, then bad physical things will likely happen to the Jewish people (such as Civil War), and specifically to the people who are responsible for making and supporting these rulings, "the life you save, may be your own."
Put another way, the goal of RaPs argument is to cause Jews to accept illegal conversions (aka goyim) for the sake of their own protection.
This way of thinking is the basis of strong arm organized crime globally. This is the whole logic behind "protection money."
I am in the U.S. and have intentionally stayed ignorant of Israeli politics for my entire adult life because I have observed that the more one knows about it, the more one argues and gets upset.
However, one cannot avoid hearing the well informed argue, and from what I gather Bedatz, the Rabbanut, and the RCA can all be described as opposite corners of a triangle, and that neither Bedatz nor the Rabbanut accept the other as an authority.
So, the notion that the Supreme Religious Court's ruling of last week was somehow orchestrated by people at Bedatz seems absurd.
Also, I don't think that Rabbi Eidensohn posted the Syrian Takana in order to endorse it. Throughout these last few months, Rabbi Eidensohn has posted various aspects to the question of how conversion is viewed and handled and opened the topic to discussion. The Syrian Takana was one of many viewpoints posted.
There were so many viewpoints presented, it is clearly impossible for any one human being to embrace them all.
RaPs general thrust seems to be that of the Religious Humanist, which is that popular sentiment should be the decisor of religious law and practice.
While he makes a nice defense of Rabbi Druckman as a "mainstream" Rabbi, this does not exempt Rabbi Druckman from needing to follow Halacha. If a court comprised of properly competent judges has determined that his Conversion proceedings have not followed the law, Rabbi Druckman's public standing and reputation is not a factor in the difference between legal and illegal.
In the Christian world, senior clergy, such as the Pope, are "infallible" and above reproach. Not so in Judaism.
It alarms me to see RaP judging entire segments of the Jewish people using Christian standards of "good and evil."
He has made it quite clear that anyone who he sees as not being open enough, such as the "Haredim", Syrians, and various Hasidic groups, are all defined as bad because of this characteristic. He also labels them as such based on false information.
Again and again he accuses the Syrians in particular of not accepting converts even though he is repeatedly presented evidence that they do indeed accepts genuine converts.
RaP makes it appear as though Rabbi Eidensohn and Bedatz (whose Rabbonim are really just easily controlled puppets of Rabbi Eidensohn) has done a bad thing by not publicizing the list of Rabbis who received private mail from Bedatz. In other words, because Rabbi Eidensohn would not smear many Rabbis who have done nothing wrong (remember, the letters spoke as warnings against future behavior, and were not judgments against past behavior), he is one of the bad guys!
His argument makes it clear that he considers nobody to be a religious authority. He likes the RCA and says they would never accept Bedatz's standards, yet ignores the fact that the RCA has already accepted those standards by agreeing to the newly published standards of the Rabbanut (who in this case appears to be in agreement with Bedatz).
Regarding the RCA, he says that they "would not accept the standards of the BADATZ and it would drive a wedge with the American communities where the real problems of intermarriages and fuzzy conversions exists." In other words, he feels that the RCA will not accept any ruling that disqualifies intermarriages and "fuzzy" conversions. If I were an RCA Rabbi, I would be highly offended!
People who support Halacha and disqualify fraudulent conversions are now like Nazi's to him! That's quite a viewpoint. Since when is "breach of contract" a racial issue? All Jewish communities accept converts. RaP would have us believe otherwise.
RaP has made it clear that in his view what Judiasm today really needs is a moratorium on practicing and enforcing Jewish law.
Ethereal concepts such as subjective individual ideas of right and wrong for him take precedence over Halacha.
I have spent many years fighting missionaries from other religions. They try to cause ordinary Jews to think like RaP does. I have heard no fewer than ten known missionaries disguised as Orthodox Rabbis say "You can wear the black coat and grow a big beard, but if you don't have love in your heart you aren't practicing Judaism" in order to cause ordinary people to disregard everything that legitimate religious authorities rule on. He's saying those same words in a different way. Instead of discussion/debating the Halachic sources and logic of decisions which make him uncomfortable, he just erases the credibility of everything with broad brushstrokes. Somehow he speaks for all Mizrachim, Hassidim, Ashkenazim, Sephardim etc....are each of us really just cookie-cutter clones of other who share our religious and culinary culture as RaPs would have us believe? I don't think so. I know Ashenazi Rabbis who say that the Syrian Takana is the only way to save the Jewish people, and I know Syrians who say the Takana is the most repulsive thing any Jewish group has ever done.
We're all individuals.
From my point of view, RaP is preaching rather than debating, and his message is dangerous.
Sunday, May 4, 2008
"Recipients and Publicity's" fantasy about the awesome power and ambition of the Bedatz
I am making this a post for two reason 1) I am really impressed with Recipients and Publicity's combination of solid knowledge with his leaps of fantasy which sometimes are on target but of late are really off. 2) It is an interesting fantasy which shows an outsiders' view - you just don't realize how inefficient and confused Chareidi Jewish organizations are.
To give a simple example, Rav Sternbuch was totally unaware of the rulings of the Supreme Rabbinic Court on Thursday - until I showed him the printout of the Jerusalem Post's article - Friday afternoon.
Regarding your other concern - knowing to whom the Bedatz sent their condemnation of EJF. I was told that they attempted to send it to all the rabbis that attended the Washington conference in Novemer 2007. Perhaps now that your question is answered you can change your name to something that is easier to type.
I will attempt to answer some of your other assertions - when I recover from the hysteria brought about by your post. BTW if you are ever in Har Nof I would be glad to introduce you the the Bedatz elite commando team that is "plotting" to take over the Jewish world. Gee I thought that Rabbi Tropper was paranoid!
===========================
Recipients and Publicity responds:
To give a simple example, Rav Sternbuch was totally unaware of the rulings of the Supreme Rabbinic Court on Thursday - until I showed him the printout of the Jerusalem Post's article - Friday afternoon.
Regarding your other concern - knowing to whom the Bedatz sent their condemnation of EJF. I was told that they attempted to send it to all the rabbis that attended the Washington conference in Novemer 2007. Perhaps now that your question is answered you can change your name to something that is easier to type.
I will attempt to answer some of your other assertions - when I recover from the hysteria brought about by your post. BTW if you are ever in Har Nof I would be glad to introduce you the the Bedatz elite commando team that is "plotting" to take over the Jewish world. Gee I thought that Rabbi Tropper was paranoid!
===========================
Recipients and Publicity responds:
Rabbi Eidensohn says: "Your comments seem increasing detached from reality. You are creating a conspiracy theory - which to put it politely is baloney."
Really now? So how do you explain the fact that in your Friday, May 2, 2008 post of "Thousands of conversions questioned by Supreme Rabbnical Court in Israel" YOU also see fit to place in the lead "...See also previous post of Rav Sternbuch's views" with a link to your earlier post of Tuesday, February 12, 2008: "HaRav Sternbuch,shlita - Proposed conversion process threatens our existence!" with a full copy of his original letter with you as his AUTHORIZED spokseman as well as his eyes-and-ears on the Internet did (quite progressive of him in this regard as the BADATZ is against the use of the Internet except for "Parnosa"...another shmues, not for now)
Add that to Rav Shternbuch's and the BADATZ's PUBLIC actions agaisnt Rav Tropper's proselytizing and against EJF's actvitivies (which I personally have great difficulty with, but my personal views do not matter since I am not a posek, just a Blogger like you) -- and which inspired me to take the ID on your Daas Torah of "Recipients and Publicity" because you had reported that the BADATZ had sent out official letters to various Batei Din that had indicated they would align with EJF and asking them to withdraw. It's why I had asked in my first posting, was it possible to obtain the names of all the "Recipients" of that BADATZ's letter and then was it possible to have some "Publicity" for it?! we still haven't gotten the full list from you yet, why? Is it a secret?
So that if you add up what has been happening the last few months in the world of Orthodox and Haredi rabbinical orginizations or even just by monitering your Blog and reading some of the fascinating posts and discussions on it, and having in mind that you are not just anyone but you are an authority in your own right in the writings of Rav Moshe Feinstein ztk"l and you have close personal contact with Rav Shternbuch shlit"a and with the workings of the holy BADATZ in Yerushalayim, and given Rav Shterbuch attitude and letters about Rav Tropper, about Rav Druckman and with Rav Shternbuch's concern about this entire subject of wholesale geirus and the standards to be applied, or shall we say not being applied to his satisfaction, and the goings on back and forth between Rav Amar and the RCA and how Rav Shternbuch is opposed to Rav Amar's, Rav Druchman's and others' present approach to dealing with geirus in the Israeli Chief Rabbinate who are essentially going lekula and being more lenient than he would be as he IS known to be a famous machmir with a much stricter/Brisker outlook. And with the dredging up of this whole obscure matter of how the Syrian community had dealt with the problem of conversions FOR THEMSELVES (but as Sefradim, Rav Shterbuch can use it as a nice foil against the Sefardi Rav Amar and the "Sefardi Rabbonim" he openly berates in his letter you published) so that if you take in the picture as you hav been reporting it and and as we have been discussing it and as you have been FRAMING It, it seems very clear to ME (not as a "Rov or Posek", but as a serious student of Jewish affairs and Jewish life) that what is REALLY happening behind the scenes and not so behind the scenes is that the groundwork is being laid by some groups in Yerushalayim focused around the BADATZ and led by Rav Shternbuch shlit"a is aiming to enact for the entire Charedi world what the Syrian's enacted forthmesslves in 1935.
And I tender to you, as a long-time student and observer of Jewish life and living that the if Rav Shternbuch and the BADATZ make such a move they will lose and will fall flat on their faces for a number of reasons, and I will try to cite some:
a) They will be preaching to the converted. Those Charedim, like Satmar and almost all Chasidic groups, except for Chabad and Breslov who are committed to Kiruv, already practice exclusion of outsiders to gerus as far as is humanly possible. So such a Charedi-wide Takana against gerim will just pander to their self-satisfaction and not get to the root of the problem which lies outside their kehilas.
b) The Israeli estbalishment, with the Rabbanut will just use such a move to further isolate and marginalize the Charedim and the people who follow the BADATZ as "extremsist/s" with whom no (halachik) business or solutions can ever be found. Jusr like The BADATZ is opposed to the modern State of Israel and the state in turn looks at them like anachronistic jokes, it would just add to worsen that chronic situation and mindset.
c) The RCA in America and most moderate Haredim in America and the West would not accept the standards of the BADATZ and it would drive a wedge with the American communities where the real problems of intermarriages and fuzzy conversions exists. That is why, as just one example, dealing with EJF efforts and Rabbi Tropper's actvities have taken on so much importance in our times. It would split Charedim from each other, the "moderates" would feel even more split off from the "extremists" and would drive Charedim in America further into literal ghettos of isolation, which many already practice but it would make it tough on many others and they would resent it and their voices will be heard because American Jews, even Haredi ones are a free spirited, independent and outpoken, if respectful, lot.
d) It could never be enforced because the Mizrachi will continue to do what they want in Israel and the RCA in Amercia will do what they want and the BADATZ will just be left screaming on the sideleines and they will come off looking like they have gotten into deeper hot water than they can tolerate let alone swim in.
e) Not just secular Jews but Orthodox Jews will come to RIGHFULLY hate the Haredim even more for enacting Nuremburg-Nazi-type Race laws, when one of the greatest reponses against false accusations that Judaism is racist is the fact that on the contrary Judaism is NOT racist because it accepts converts from any race faith or creed provded the convert is genuine. There is a famous quote from Rav Yaakov Kamenetezky ztk"l that the arguments that Judaism is racist like the Nazis could chas vesholom be "proven" true were it not for the fact that the BIGGEST disporoof against that argument is that Judaism, unlike Nazism, accepts converts, even from nations that are or were its enemies! By enacting a Syrian-like Takana for all of Charedi Judentum, the BADATZ would be digging a big whole for all Charedim and indeed all Jews, to be buried in that would validate the worst claims of the antisemites, playing into the hands of all sonei Yisreol the media would have a field day painting Jews as confirmed racist and proto-Nazis once and for all and that would be a world-class tragedy.
f) It would be ARROGANT!!! It would in effect mean that the BADATZ is taking upon itself the job and role of the Sanhedrin that can only be established with the arrival of the Mashiach. What the Syrian's did with their Takana also goes against this. How dare any Kehiilla, no matter how self-righteous take upon itself what can only be done in Yemos HaMashiach when Klal Yisroel will no longer be mekabel geirim? As I have said, sure, make the acceptance standards for geirus tough, make them very very tough, make them even EXTREMELY tough, but never let the door be bolted tightly shut so that noone can come through to be megayer because that is something that is still possible until such time as ALL of Klal Yisrael rabbonim can agree and when all the robbonim agree maybe that will be a sign that Mashiach is around the corner.
g) It does no good that Rav Shternbuch belittles Rav Druckman and Rav Amar or others like them. Rav Druckman and Rav Amar are not small-time Kiruv rabbis from America who have funny ideas. They are essentially mainstream rabbis for their followers. Not everyone is Charedi and not everyone will be or needs to be.
h) It will be a terrible case of "kefiya datit" (religious coercion) and a huge Chilul H-shem and may result in onforseen consequences. For example, if Charedim are going to pasul all gerim of the rabbanut then in a time of crisis, as in a terror attack or war situation, chas vesholom, someone in a position of power in the Israeli security forces may allow the abandonment of Charedi Jews under fire when lives are at stake. There are clear considerations of pikuach nefesh and dinei nefashos here that cannot be igmored in the Israeli context that are above and beyond questions of valid and invalid conversions. Rav Shternbuch's and the BADATZ's descendant are not going to marry geirim or people who come from geirim because the natural suspicioun, exclusion and paranoia of outsiders is strong strong in the heearland of ASHKENAZI Charedim that they will not really face the problems. It is more marginal people that this debate concerns, and the BADATZ needs to consider if in a quest to keep all gerim out by steam-rollering over Rav Amar, Druckman, the RCA, the Rabbanut etc, they are not in the process also writing some "warrants" that will backfire on them when THEIR day of reckoning should ever come, chas vesholom, so that this is all quite literally a matter of life and death and not just an academic discussion about gerim.
i) There are SIMPLER solutions! At least the Syrians kept the matter to themselves. That was logical. But now, as you drag the Syrian Takana as a kind of "blueprint" of what can be done on a broader scale (and the BADATZ in Yerushalyim is dealing with matters on a broader scale per force) then it becomes an entirely different matter. Sure, if Satmar wants to make a Takana for itself fine, let it do so (if the Aron and Zalman factions can agree that is). If the Lubavitchers want to have their "mivtzoyim" that is their's to do. If Mizrachistim want to have "Hesder" that is their business. If Belzers want to build a huge shull in Yerushalayim and serve their Rebbe faithfully and listen to his dictates, then fine let them do it. If Brisk does not want money from Israel but wants if only from American gevirim that is their business. But if one groups wants to get up and say that THEIR "derech" or "pesak" or "mehalech" or "Takana" should become the new "law of the land" like a new "Shulchan Oruch" it would be a total disaster and could perhaps even forseeably lead to violent conflict chas vesholom (yes, it's called civil war and it could happen chas vesholom.)
j) There is so much Ahavas Yisroel lacking that it is frightening. People are viewing each other as enemies. One group of frum Jews hates and fights the other as in the times of the Bayis Sheni there is so much Sinas Chinom. And one should take a lesson from the Tanaim that when they wanted someone to be metaken the "lamalshinim" segment in the shemoneh esrei when THEY wanted to ADD an extra brocha, the 19th, the Chazal turned to (from Wikisource):"the blessing of V'lamalshinim (Informers) was added much later, during a period in which the Jewish people experienced terrible persecution as a result of these slanderous informers. The task of composing the text for this blessing was delegated to the Tanna Shmuel haKatan, because he was well known as one who exemplified the idiom (Proverbs 24:19) "At the fall of your enemy, do not rejoice, and in his stumbling do not let your heart be gleeful"."
So as I keep saying, when so many Charedim trumpet the values of Kiruv and Chinuch, begging people to give money to Lev LeAchim and Chinuch Atzmai, to so many organizations that claim to be reaching out to and helping the non-frum, this other darker war, with a "no hostages taken" approach, is the opposite of that, and often with the same people in Israel who ask for bundles of money to do "kiruv" also fueling the flames of war against those who need to be mekareavd and, yes, sometimes even megayerd (because there is quite often no other way around it, and each situation is unique, there cannot be mass solution to Yiddishe problems) and let the ones who wish "to go to war", the lurking kanoyim, baalei machlokes and frumaks, take stock of what they are about to unleash and what it may cause them in the long run.
As the saying goes, "the life you save, may be your own."
Really now? So how do you explain the fact that in your Friday, May 2, 2008 post of "Thousands of conversions questioned by Supreme Rabbnical Court in Israel" YOU also see fit to place in the lead "...See also previous post of Rav Sternbuch's views" with a link to your earlier post of Tuesday, February 12, 2008: "HaRav Sternbuch,shlita - Proposed conversion process threatens our existence!" with a full copy of his original letter with you as his AUTHORIZED spokseman as well as his eyes-and-ears on the Internet did (quite progressive of him in this regard as the BADATZ is against the use of the Internet except for "Parnosa"...another shmues, not for now)
Add that to Rav Shternbuch's and the BADATZ's PUBLIC actions agaisnt Rav Tropper's proselytizing and against EJF's actvitivies (which I personally have great difficulty with, but my personal views do not matter since I am not a posek, just a Blogger like you) -- and which inspired me to take the ID on your Daas Torah of "Recipients and Publicity" because you had reported that the BADATZ had sent out official letters to various Batei Din that had indicated they would align with EJF and asking them to withdraw. It's why I had asked in my first posting, was it possible to obtain the names of all the "Recipients" of that BADATZ's letter and then was it possible to have some "Publicity" for it?! we still haven't gotten the full list from you yet, why? Is it a secret?
So that if you add up what has been happening the last few months in the world of Orthodox and Haredi rabbinical orginizations or even just by monitering your Blog and reading some of the fascinating posts and discussions on it, and having in mind that you are not just anyone but you are an authority in your own right in the writings of Rav Moshe Feinstein ztk"l and you have close personal contact with Rav Shternbuch shlit"a and with the workings of the holy BADATZ in Yerushalayim, and given Rav Shterbuch attitude and letters about Rav Tropper, about Rav Druckman and with Rav Shternbuch's concern about this entire subject of wholesale geirus and the standards to be applied, or shall we say not being applied to his satisfaction, and the goings on back and forth between Rav Amar and the RCA and how Rav Shternbuch is opposed to Rav Amar's, Rav Druchman's and others' present approach to dealing with geirus in the Israeli Chief Rabbinate who are essentially going lekula and being more lenient than he would be as he IS known to be a famous machmir with a much stricter/Brisker outlook. And with the dredging up of this whole obscure matter of how the Syrian community had dealt with the problem of conversions FOR THEMSELVES (but as Sefradim, Rav Shterbuch can use it as a nice foil against the Sefardi Rav Amar and the "Sefardi Rabbonim" he openly berates in his letter you published) so that if you take in the picture as you hav been reporting it and and as we have been discussing it and as you have been FRAMING It, it seems very clear to ME (not as a "Rov or Posek", but as a serious student of Jewish affairs and Jewish life) that what is REALLY happening behind the scenes and not so behind the scenes is that the groundwork is being laid by some groups in Yerushalayim focused around the BADATZ and led by Rav Shternbuch shlit"a is aiming to enact for the entire Charedi world what the Syrian's enacted forthmesslves in 1935.
And I tender to you, as a long-time student and observer of Jewish life and living that the if Rav Shternbuch and the BADATZ make such a move they will lose and will fall flat on their faces for a number of reasons, and I will try to cite some:
a) They will be preaching to the converted. Those Charedim, like Satmar and almost all Chasidic groups, except for Chabad and Breslov who are committed to Kiruv, already practice exclusion of outsiders to gerus as far as is humanly possible. So such a Charedi-wide Takana against gerim will just pander to their self-satisfaction and not get to the root of the problem which lies outside their kehilas.
b) The Israeli estbalishment, with the Rabbanut will just use such a move to further isolate and marginalize the Charedim and the people who follow the BADATZ as "extremsist/s" with whom no (halachik) business or solutions can ever be found. Jusr like The BADATZ is opposed to the modern State of Israel and the state in turn looks at them like anachronistic jokes, it would just add to worsen that chronic situation and mindset.
c) The RCA in America and most moderate Haredim in America and the West would not accept the standards of the BADATZ and it would drive a wedge with the American communities where the real problems of intermarriages and fuzzy conversions exists. That is why, as just one example, dealing with EJF efforts and Rabbi Tropper's actvities have taken on so much importance in our times. It would split Charedim from each other, the "moderates" would feel even more split off from the "extremists" and would drive Charedim in America further into literal ghettos of isolation, which many already practice but it would make it tough on many others and they would resent it and their voices will be heard because American Jews, even Haredi ones are a free spirited, independent and outpoken, if respectful, lot.
d) It could never be enforced because the Mizrachi will continue to do what they want in Israel and the RCA in Amercia will do what they want and the BADATZ will just be left screaming on the sideleines and they will come off looking like they have gotten into deeper hot water than they can tolerate let alone swim in.
e) Not just secular Jews but Orthodox Jews will come to RIGHFULLY hate the Haredim even more for enacting Nuremburg-Nazi-type Race laws, when one of the greatest reponses against false accusations that Judaism is racist is the fact that on the contrary Judaism is NOT racist because it accepts converts from any race faith or creed provded the convert is genuine. There is a famous quote from Rav Yaakov Kamenetezky ztk"l that the arguments that Judaism is racist like the Nazis could chas vesholom be "proven" true were it not for the fact that the BIGGEST disporoof against that argument is that Judaism, unlike Nazism, accepts converts, even from nations that are or were its enemies! By enacting a Syrian-like Takana for all of Charedi Judentum, the BADATZ would be digging a big whole for all Charedim and indeed all Jews, to be buried in that would validate the worst claims of the antisemites, playing into the hands of all sonei Yisreol the media would have a field day painting Jews as confirmed racist and proto-Nazis once and for all and that would be a world-class tragedy.
f) It would be ARROGANT!!! It would in effect mean that the BADATZ is taking upon itself the job and role of the Sanhedrin that can only be established with the arrival of the Mashiach. What the Syrian's did with their Takana also goes against this. How dare any Kehiilla, no matter how self-righteous take upon itself what can only be done in Yemos HaMashiach when Klal Yisroel will no longer be mekabel geirim? As I have said, sure, make the acceptance standards for geirus tough, make them very very tough, make them even EXTREMELY tough, but never let the door be bolted tightly shut so that noone can come through to be megayer because that is something that is still possible until such time as ALL of Klal Yisrael rabbonim can agree and when all the robbonim agree maybe that will be a sign that Mashiach is around the corner.
g) It does no good that Rav Shternbuch belittles Rav Druckman and Rav Amar or others like them. Rav Druckman and Rav Amar are not small-time Kiruv rabbis from America who have funny ideas. They are essentially mainstream rabbis for their followers. Not everyone is Charedi and not everyone will be or needs to be.
h) It will be a terrible case of "kefiya datit" (religious coercion) and a huge Chilul H-shem and may result in onforseen consequences. For example, if Charedim are going to pasul all gerim of the rabbanut then in a time of crisis, as in a terror attack or war situation, chas vesholom, someone in a position of power in the Israeli security forces may allow the abandonment of Charedi Jews under fire when lives are at stake. There are clear considerations of pikuach nefesh and dinei nefashos here that cannot be igmored in the Israeli context that are above and beyond questions of valid and invalid conversions. Rav Shternbuch's and the BADATZ's descendant are not going to marry geirim or people who come from geirim because the natural suspicioun, exclusion and paranoia of outsiders is strong strong in the heearland of ASHKENAZI Charedim that they will not really face the problems. It is more marginal people that this debate concerns, and the BADATZ needs to consider if in a quest to keep all gerim out by steam-rollering over Rav Amar, Druckman, the RCA, the Rabbanut etc, they are not in the process also writing some "warrants" that will backfire on them when THEIR day of reckoning should ever come, chas vesholom, so that this is all quite literally a matter of life and death and not just an academic discussion about gerim.
i) There are SIMPLER solutions! At least the Syrians kept the matter to themselves. That was logical. But now, as you drag the Syrian Takana as a kind of "blueprint" of what can be done on a broader scale (and the BADATZ in Yerushalyim is dealing with matters on a broader scale per force) then it becomes an entirely different matter. Sure, if Satmar wants to make a Takana for itself fine, let it do so (if the Aron and Zalman factions can agree that is). If the Lubavitchers want to have their "mivtzoyim" that is their's to do. If Mizrachistim want to have "Hesder" that is their business. If Belzers want to build a huge shull in Yerushalayim and serve their Rebbe faithfully and listen to his dictates, then fine let them do it. If Brisk does not want money from Israel but wants if only from American gevirim that is their business. But if one groups wants to get up and say that THEIR "derech" or "pesak" or "mehalech" or "Takana" should become the new "law of the land" like a new "Shulchan Oruch" it would be a total disaster and could perhaps even forseeably lead to violent conflict chas vesholom (yes, it's called civil war and it could happen chas vesholom.)
j) There is so much Ahavas Yisroel lacking that it is frightening. People are viewing each other as enemies. One group of frum Jews hates and fights the other as in the times of the Bayis Sheni there is so much Sinas Chinom. And one should take a lesson from the Tanaim that when they wanted someone to be metaken the "lamalshinim" segment in the shemoneh esrei when THEY wanted to ADD an extra brocha, the 19th, the Chazal turned to (from Wikisource):"the blessing of V'lamalshinim (Informers) was added much later, during a period in which the Jewish people experienced terrible persecution as a result of these slanderous informers. The task of composing the text for this blessing was delegated to the Tanna Shmuel haKatan, because he was well known as one who exemplified the idiom (Proverbs 24:19) "At the fall of your enemy, do not rejoice, and in his stumbling do not let your heart be gleeful"."
So as I keep saying, when so many Charedim trumpet the values of Kiruv and Chinuch, begging people to give money to Lev LeAchim and Chinuch Atzmai, to so many organizations that claim to be reaching out to and helping the non-frum, this other darker war, with a "no hostages taken" approach, is the opposite of that, and often with the same people in Israel who ask for bundles of money to do "kiruv" also fueling the flames of war against those who need to be mekareavd and, yes, sometimes even megayerd (because there is quite often no other way around it, and each situation is unique, there cannot be mass solution to Yiddishe problems) and let the ones who wish "to go to war", the lurking kanoyim, baalei machlokes and frumaks, take stock of what they are about to unleash and what it may cause them in the long run.
As the saying goes, "the life you save, may be your own."
Chief Rabbi to attempt to revoke ruling which invalidates thousands of conversions
[this is an except which appeared in Haaretz]
[Arutz 7 published an interview with Rav Druckman who says the ruling is invalid]
Amar tried to halt the publication of the ruling, according to which conversions to Judaism that have been conducted by Rabbi Haim Druckman - a prominent figure in Religious Zionism - are void, and the converts cannot be recognized as Jewish by the Chief Rabbinate.
The ruling, which was already drafted in February, casts severe doubts on Druckman's conversion arrangements. The decision, made by a panel headed by the staunchly conservative Rabbi Avraham Sherman, stemmed from debating the divorce case of a woman who had been converted by Druckman 15 years ago.
[Arutz 7 published an interview with Rav Druckman who says the ruling is invalid]
Chief Rabbi Shlomo Amar, acting in his capacity as president of the Supreme Rabbinical Court, will attempt to revoke a ruling from last week, which invalidated thousands of conversions carried out in Israel over the last few years, Haaretz has learnt.
The judges, it emerges, went ahead with the ruling despite the stern objection of Amar, who is said to have been surprised by the decision.
Amar tried to halt the publication of the ruling, according to which conversions to Judaism that have been conducted by Rabbi Haim Druckman - a prominent figure in Religious Zionism - are void, and the converts cannot be recognized as Jewish by the Chief Rabbinate.
The ruling, which was already drafted in February, casts severe doubts on Druckman's conversion arrangements. The decision, made by a panel headed by the staunchly conservative Rabbi Avraham Sherman, stemmed from debating the divorce case of a woman who had been converted by Druckman 15 years ago.
Friday, May 2, 2008
Thousands of conversions questioned by Supreme Rabbnical Court in Israel
Ynet just published the following article Jpost also has an article See also previous post of Rav Sternbuch's views
Thousands of conversions questioned
High Rabbinical Court calls into question all conversions performed by Rabbi Chaim Drukman since 1999
Ynet
Thousands of conversions questioned
High Rabbinical Court calls into question all conversions performed by Rabbi Chaim Drukman since 1999
Ynet
“All conversions performed since 1999 by Rabbi Chaim Avior and Rabbi Chaim Drukman, who heads the Israeli Conversion Court, must be disqualified,” the Supreme Rabbinical Court in Jerusalem concluded earlier this week, while discussing an appeal made a by a woman whose 15-year-old conversion conversion was annulled by the Ashdod Rabbinical Court, thus naming her children non-Jewish.
In the 50-page verdict,Judges Sherman, Izirer and Scheinfeld it said: "First, all conversions performed since 1999 by Rabbi Chaim Avior and Rabbi Chaim Drukman must be disqualified; second, conversions can be retroactively annulled for those who are not observant."
click on above link to see full article
Syrian ban is not against sincere gerim
Jersey Girl wrote:
RaP- Here is a letter written by Rabbi Moshe Shammah:
Oct. 15, 2007
Letters to the Editor, Magazine
The New York Times
620 Eighth Ave.
New York, NY 10018
To the Editor,
Jakie Kassin is the son and grandson of rabbis and a dynamic do-gooder, but he is neither a rabbi nor a scholar of Judaic studies. The statements attributed to him in “The SY Empire” (Zev Chafets, Oct. 14, 2007) are a gross distortion of Judaism as well as of the 1935 Edict promulgated in the Syrian Jewish community of Brooklyn. That Edict was enacted to discourage community members from intermarrying with non-Jews. It acknowledged the reality of the time that conversions were being employed insincerely and superficially. Accordingly, conversion for marriage to a member of the community was automatically rejected.
However, it is important in this regard to clarify the policy of the community rabbinate and particularly that of the long-time former chief rabbi of the community, Jacob S. Kassin (the originator of the Edict), and his son, the present chief rabbi, Saul J. Kassin. I quote from an official formulation of the Sephardic Rabbinical Council of several years ago that reflects their position: “1. A conversion not associated with marriage that was performed by a recognized Orthodox court – such as for adoption of infants or in the case of an individual sincerely choosing to be Jewish – is accepted in our community. 2. If an individual not born to a member of our community had converted to Judaism under the aegis of an Orthodox court, and was observant of Jewish Law, married a Jew/Jewess who was not and had not been a member of our community, their children are permitted to marry into our community.” Based on these standards a goodly number of converts have been accepted into the community. Genetic characteristics play no role whatsoever.
No rabbi considers sincere and proper conversions “fictitious and valueless.” (The comma in the English translation cited in the article that gives that impression was the result of a mistranslation by a layman, a matter I made clear to Mr. Chafets when we spoke.)
In addition, the quote claiming that even other Jews are disqualified from marrying into the community “if someone in their line was married by a Reform or Conservative rabbi” is a totally false portrayal of community rabbinical policy. Many Ashkenazim whose parents were married by such rabbis have married into our community.
Sincerely,
Moshe Shamah
Rabbi, Sephardic Synagogue
511 Ave. R
Brooklyn, NY 11223
==================================
Jersey Girl wrote:
"Are you questioning the right of kosher properly constituted Baitei Din of qualified Dayanim mumchim to accept geirim bazman hazeh?"
RaP- Here is a letter written by Rabbi Moshe Shammah:
Oct. 15, 2007
Letters to the Editor, Magazine
The New York Times
620 Eighth Ave.
New York, NY 10018
To the Editor,
Jakie Kassin is the son and grandson of rabbis and a dynamic do-gooder, but he is neither a rabbi nor a scholar of Judaic studies. The statements attributed to him in “The SY Empire” (Zev Chafets, Oct. 14, 2007) are a gross distortion of Judaism as well as of the 1935 Edict promulgated in the Syrian Jewish community of Brooklyn. That Edict was enacted to discourage community members from intermarrying with non-Jews. It acknowledged the reality of the time that conversions were being employed insincerely and superficially. Accordingly, conversion for marriage to a member of the community was automatically rejected.
However, it is important in this regard to clarify the policy of the community rabbinate and particularly that of the long-time former chief rabbi of the community, Jacob S. Kassin (the originator of the Edict), and his son, the present chief rabbi, Saul J. Kassin. I quote from an official formulation of the Sephardic Rabbinical Council of several years ago that reflects their position: “1. A conversion not associated with marriage that was performed by a recognized Orthodox court – such as for adoption of infants or in the case of an individual sincerely choosing to be Jewish – is accepted in our community. 2. If an individual not born to a member of our community had converted to Judaism under the aegis of an Orthodox court, and was observant of Jewish Law, married a Jew/Jewess who was not and had not been a member of our community, their children are permitted to marry into our community.” Based on these standards a goodly number of converts have been accepted into the community. Genetic characteristics play no role whatsoever.
No rabbi considers sincere and proper conversions “fictitious and valueless.” (The comma in the English translation cited in the article that gives that impression was the result of a mistranslation by a layman, a matter I made clear to Mr. Chafets when we spoke.)
In addition, the quote claiming that even other Jews are disqualified from marrying into the community “if someone in their line was married by a Reform or Conservative rabbi” is a totally false portrayal of community rabbinical policy. Many Ashkenazim whose parents were married by such rabbis have married into our community.
Sincerely,
Moshe Shamah
Rabbi, Sephardic Synagogue
511 Ave. R
Brooklyn, NY 11223
==================================
Jersey Girl wrote:
RaP - When you say:
"Are you questioning the right of kosher properly constituted Baitei Din of qualified Dayanim mumchim to accept geirim bazman hazeh?"
Why do you persist at asking this?
The Takana states:
"that no male or female member of our community has the right to intermarry with non. Jews; this law covers conversions which we consider to be fictitious and valueless."
The Takana bans conversions that kasher intermarriage which are fictitious and valueless.
Why do you continually INSIST that this covers ALL gerim when this is clearly not the case?
Do you have personal experience in a case of a Ger Tzedek from a qualified Beis Din who was NOT accepted in the Syrian community?
I DO personally know of Gerim and their children and grandchildren who are fully accepted in the Syrian community.
Here is a story from Rabbi Moshe Shammah posted back in 1994. I do know of this woman and also know that her children married in the community and her grandchildren attend the schools:
The decree focuses on those who convert for the purpose of marrying a Jew or Jewess. A non-Jew who is clearly motivated by marriage but who sincerely and properly converts, should normally be accepted halakhically. However, the Syrian rabbis realized they were being fooled by insincere candidates, etc. and established the 1935 decree not to accept those who were converting in conjunction with a prospective or past marriage. The decree was not addressed to those who converted just for the love of Judaism.
This was vividly brought home to me about 25 years ago by Rabbi Jacob S.Kassin, HKBH send him speedy recovery, the long-time chief rabbi of the Brooklyn Syrian community and one of the 1935 takana signatories. A community member who was also a member of an Ashkenazi yeshiva married a righteous convert. The marriage was performed by a leading Ashkenazi rosh hayeshiva. The Shabbat morning after the wedding he davened in our shul. The mesader aliyot (gabbay) rushed to Shaare Zion where Rabbi Kassin davened and asked him what to do. Rabbi Kassin said he's familiar with the case and it doesn't fall into the takana as the bride is a righteous convert who previously converted independently of marriage considerations and we should give the gentleman an aliya. Although the mesader was reliable I wanted to confirm this and several days later personally asked Rabbi Kassin. He got a bit excited and declared, "The takana is not for this woman - she's a refugee who came to Judaism."
I really hope that you will stop slandering the Syrian community by saying that the Syrian community does not accept Gerei Tzeddek. It is simply NOT true.
The Takana states:
"that no male or female member of our community has the right to intermarry with non. Jews; this law covers conversions which we consider to be fictitious and valueless."
The Takana bans conversions that kasher intermarriage which are fictitious and valueless.
Why do you continually INSIST that this covers ALL gerim when this is clearly not the case?
Do you have personal experience in a case of a Ger Tzedek from a qualified Beis Din who was NOT accepted in the Syrian community?
I DO personally know of Gerim and their children and grandchildren who are fully accepted in the Syrian community.
Here is a story from Rabbi Moshe Shammah posted back in 1994. I do know of this woman and also know that her children married in the community and her grandchildren attend the schools:
The decree focuses on those who convert for the purpose of marrying a Jew or Jewess. A non-Jew who is clearly motivated by marriage but who sincerely and properly converts, should normally be accepted halakhically. However, the Syrian rabbis realized they were being fooled by insincere candidates, etc. and established the 1935 decree not to accept those who were converting in conjunction with a prospective or past marriage. The decree was not addressed to those who converted just for the love of Judaism.
This was vividly brought home to me about 25 years ago by Rabbi Jacob S.Kassin, HKBH send him speedy recovery, the long-time chief rabbi of the Brooklyn Syrian community and one of the 1935 takana signatories. A community member who was also a member of an Ashkenazi yeshiva married a righteous convert. The marriage was performed by a leading Ashkenazi rosh hayeshiva. The Shabbat morning after the wedding he davened in our shul. The mesader aliyot (gabbay) rushed to Shaare Zion where Rabbi Kassin davened and asked him what to do. Rabbi Kassin said he's familiar with the case and it doesn't fall into the takana as the bride is a righteous convert who previously converted independently of marriage considerations and we should give the gentleman an aliya. Although the mesader was reliable I wanted to confirm this and several days later personally asked Rabbi Kassin. He got a bit excited and declared, "The takana is not for this woman - she's a refugee who came to Judaism."
I really hope that you will stop slandering the Syrian community by saying that the Syrian community does not accept Gerei Tzeddek. It is simply NOT true.
Banning conversion for the sake of the community
There have been some rather peculiar assertions made regarding the appropriateness - according to both hashgofa and halacha - of a community banning gerim. The comments have not been backed by a single direct source. Let me just bring some sources that seem to justify such an approach.
I have not found any discussion in the literature regarding the ban of the Syrian community. However regarding a similar ban in Argentina, I have found no rabbonim who questioned the right of the community to make such a ban. No one raises the assertions posted in the comments sections.
Besides Rav Kook's approval, there is a discussion by Rav Tzi Pesach Frank in which he approves of the ban and also notes that if any rabbi in the community accepts gerim - against the ban - the gerus is invalid. A similar view is expressed by Rav Ben Tzion Uziel. While the latter did express concern that the tactic might backfire but acknowledged that he wasn't knowledgable about the conditions in Argentina to know whether this was likely.
A clearer proof that such a ban is not inherently problematic is the following gemora.
Yevamos(24b): Our Rabbis taught: Gerim will not be accepted in the Messianic days. This is similar to the fact that gerim were not accepted in the days of Dovid and Shlomo. R’ Eleazar asked which Biblical verse supports this assertion. Yeshaya (54:15) says, He shall be a ger only if he is converted for My sake and only he who lives with you [in your suffering] shall be settled among you.”
I have not found any discussion in the literature regarding the ban of the Syrian community. However regarding a similar ban in Argentina, I have found no rabbonim who questioned the right of the community to make such a ban. No one raises the assertions posted in the comments sections.
Besides Rav Kook's approval, there is a discussion by Rav Tzi Pesach Frank in which he approves of the ban and also notes that if any rabbi in the community accepts gerim - against the ban - the gerus is invalid. A similar view is expressed by Rav Ben Tzion Uziel. While the latter did express concern that the tactic might backfire but acknowledged that he wasn't knowledgable about the conditions in Argentina to know whether this was likely.
A clearer proof that such a ban is not inherently problematic is the following gemora.
Yevamos(24b): Our Rabbis taught: Gerim will not be accepted in the Messianic days. This is similar to the fact that gerim were not accepted in the days of Dovid and Shlomo. R’ Eleazar asked which Biblical verse supports this assertion. Yeshaya (54:15) says, He shall be a ger only if he is converted for My sake and only he who lives with you [in your suffering] shall be settled among you.”
Avoda Zara(3b): R’ Yossi said that in the Messianic era the idol worshippers will become converts. But will they be accepted? Has it not been taught that in the Messianic era that converts will not be accepted just as they were not accepted in the days of Dovid and Shlomo? The fact is that they will act on their own as if they converts and put tefilin on their heads and arms, tzitzis on their garments and mezuzos on their doorposts. However when they see the battle of Gog and Magog they will be asked why they have come. They will answer that they have come against G‑d and His Moshiach… Then each one of these “converts” will take off his Jewish signs and leave. G‑d will sit and laugh… R’ Yitzchok said that there is no laughter for G‑d except for that day.
Rambam(Hilchos Issurei Bi’ah 13:15): Therefore the beis din not accept gerim all the days of Dovid and Shlomo. They were not accepted in the days of Dovid because of concern that they would only convert out of fear. They weren’t accepted in the days of Shlomo because of concern that they would only convert because of the glory of the monarchy and the great bounty that the Jews had in those days. That is because whoever converts to Judaism for the sake of physical benefits is not considered a genuine convert. Nevertheless there were in fact many gerim in the days of Dovid and Shlomo because of the incompetent judges. Nevertheless the High Court (Sanhedrin) was concerned that they might in fact be valid converts and therefore did not reject them after they immersed in the mikveh but on the other hand did not bring them close until it became clear what they became.
Thursday, May 1, 2008
The Syrian ban on Converts
A SEPHARDIC BAN ON CONVERTS
by Rabbi Dr. Zevuelen Lieberman
TRADITION, 23(2), Winter 1988 © 1988 Rabbinical Council of America
Dr. Lieberman is Rabbi of Congregation Beth Torah in Brooklyn, N.Y., one of the major synagogues of the Syrian-Sephardic Jewish community.
. [Beginning of article deleted]
A close-knit pattern of social and economic inter-relationships motivates most people to marry within the community; indeed, better than ninety percent of the families are intra-communally married. However, it is the realization that no converts whatsoever will be accepted that keeps all but the most marginally affiliated from embarking upon serious social relationships with non-Jews. In 1935, following the example of the Syrian-Sephardic Jewish community of Argentina, the Brooklyn beit din promulgated a ban on accepting any converts; this was reaffirmed by the rabbinical authorities in 1946 and 1972. These various proclamations were initiated by the community's rabbinical leaders. However, in 1984, sensing the increasing social rressures, the lay leaders initiated a public affirmation of the ban; they recognized it to be a necessary and effective tool for maintaining the'social cohesiveness of the community. The ban is based on the right of the community to promulgate takanot and prohibitions. This is codified in the Shulhan Arukh and goes back to talmudic times, when Rav found a problematic situation regarding oaths in the Babylonian community: Bik'a matsa ve'Kadar gader-"He found an open valley and built a fence."
The current situation in America regarding conversions, wherebv most gerut is done for the purpose of marriage, represents a sham , and travesty of the Jewish tradition. But the Sephardic community's approach is proof of the power of a kehilla to protect its heritage and traditions, even though it may not be reproduceable across all American Jewish communities. Our ban does not necessarily deny the legitimacy of any specific conversion; it does deny the convert and his or her Sephardic spouse (and their children) membership in the community. Of course, it does not apply to descendants of people who underwent a legitimate conversion prior to 1935 or to adopted children converted at birth.
What follows is an English translation of the Hebrew proclamations of 1935 and 1946, as well as the text of the 1984 proclamation.
A RABBINICAL PROCLAMATION Adar 5695 (February 1935)
We have observed the conditions prevailing in the general Jewish comrnunity, where some youth have left the haven of their faith and have assimilated with non-Jews; in certain cases they have made efforts to marry gentiles, sometimes without any effort to convert them, and other times an effort is made for conversion to our faith, .m action which is absolutely invalid and worthless in the eyes of the law of our Torah. We have therefore bestirred ourselves to build and establish an iron wall to protect our identity and religious integrity and to bolster the strong foundations of our faith and religious purity which we have maintained for many centuries going back to our country of origin, Syria.
We, the undersigned rabbis, constituting the Religious Court, together with the Executive Committee of the Magen David Congregation and the outstanding laymen of the community, do hereby decree, with the authority of our Holy Torah, that no male or female member of our community has the right to intermarry with non. Jews; this law covers conversions, which we consider to be fictitious and valueless. We further decree that no future rabbinic court of the community should have the right or authority to convert male Or female non-Jews who seek to marry into our community. We have followed the example of the community in Argentina, which main. tains a rabbinic ban on any of the marital arrangements enumerated above, an edict which has received the wholehearted and unqualified endorsement of the Chief Rabbinate in Israel. This responsa is discussed in detail in Devar Sha 'ul, Yoreh Deah, Part II to Part VI. In the event that any member of our community should ignore our ruling and marry, their issue will have to suffer the consequences. Announcements to this effect will be made advising the community not to allow any marriage with children of such converts. We are confident that the Jewish People are a holy people and they will adhere to the decision of their rabbis and will not conceive of doing otherwise.
Chief Rabbi Haim Tawil
Rabbi Jacob Kassin
Rabbi Murad Masalton
Rabbi Moshe Gindi
Rabbi Moshe Dweck Kassab
A SUBSEQUENT CLARIFICATION OF THE ORIGINAL PROCLAMATION
Adar 5706 (February 1946) On the 9th day of Adar I in the year 5706 corresponding to the 10th day of February, 1946, the rabbis of the community and the Committee of Magen David Congregation once again discussed the question of intermarriage and conversions. The following religious rabbinic decisions were promulgated and accepted:
I. Our community will never accept any converts, male or female, for marriage.
2. The rabbi will not perform any religious ceremonies for such couples, i.e., marriages, circumcisions, bar mitzvahs, etc. In fact, the Congregation's premises will be barred to them for use of any religious or social nature.
3. The Mesadrim of the Congregation will not accord any honors to the convert or one married to a convert, such as offering himlln an Aliyah to the Sefer Torah. In addition, the aforesaid person, male or female, will not be allowed to purchase a seat, permanently (If for the holidays, in our Congregations.
4. After death of said person, he or she is not to be buried on the cemetery of our community, known as Rodfe Zedek, regardless elf financial considerations. Seal of the Beth Din of Magen David Congregation
Chief Rabbi Jacob S. Kassin
REAFFIRMING OUR TRADITION
WHEREAS. throughout the history of our community, our rabbis and lay leaders have always recognized the threat of conversions and the danger of intermarriage and assimilation; and have issued warnings and proclamations concerning these evils in February 1935, February 1946 and in May 1972. NOW. THEREFORE, we assembled rabbis and Presidents of the congregations and organizations of the Syrian and Near Eastern Jewish communities of Greater New York and New Jersey do now and hereby reaffirm these proclamations, and pledge ourselves to uphold, enforce and promulgate these regulations. We further declare that Shabbat Shuvah of each year be designated as a day to urge our people to rededicate themselves to these principles. IN WITNESS WHEREOF, we have caused this document to he prepared and have affixed our signatures thereto, at a special convocation held on this third day of Sivan 5744 corresponding to the 3rd day of June. 1984.
Dr. Jacob S. Kassin Chief Rabbi
The proclamation was signed by the rabbis and presidents of every synagogue. yeshivah. and social organization of the Sephardic Jcwish communities of New York and New Jersey.
by Rabbi Dr. Zevuelen Lieberman
TRADITION, 23(2), Winter 1988 © 1988 Rabbinical Council of America
Dr. Lieberman is Rabbi of Congregation Beth Torah in Brooklyn, N.Y., one of the major synagogues of the Syrian-Sephardic Jewish community.
. [Beginning of article deleted]
A close-knit pattern of social and economic inter-relationships motivates most people to marry within the community; indeed, better than ninety percent of the families are intra-communally married. However, it is the realization that no converts whatsoever will be accepted that keeps all but the most marginally affiliated from embarking upon serious social relationships with non-Jews. In 1935, following the example of the Syrian-Sephardic Jewish community of Argentina, the Brooklyn beit din promulgated a ban on accepting any converts; this was reaffirmed by the rabbinical authorities in 1946 and 1972. These various proclamations were initiated by the community's rabbinical leaders. However, in 1984, sensing the increasing social rressures, the lay leaders initiated a public affirmation of the ban; they recognized it to be a necessary and effective tool for maintaining the'social cohesiveness of the community. The ban is based on the right of the community to promulgate takanot and prohibitions. This is codified in the Shulhan Arukh and goes back to talmudic times, when Rav found a problematic situation regarding oaths in the Babylonian community: Bik'a matsa ve'Kadar gader-"He found an open valley and built a fence."
The current situation in America regarding conversions, wherebv most gerut is done for the purpose of marriage, represents a sham , and travesty of the Jewish tradition. But the Sephardic community's approach is proof of the power of a kehilla to protect its heritage and traditions, even though it may not be reproduceable across all American Jewish communities. Our ban does not necessarily deny the legitimacy of any specific conversion; it does deny the convert and his or her Sephardic spouse (and their children) membership in the community. Of course, it does not apply to descendants of people who underwent a legitimate conversion prior to 1935 or to adopted children converted at birth.
What follows is an English translation of the Hebrew proclamations of 1935 and 1946, as well as the text of the 1984 proclamation.
A RABBINICAL PROCLAMATION Adar 5695 (February 1935)
We have observed the conditions prevailing in the general Jewish comrnunity, where some youth have left the haven of their faith and have assimilated with non-Jews; in certain cases they have made efforts to marry gentiles, sometimes without any effort to convert them, and other times an effort is made for conversion to our faith, .m action which is absolutely invalid and worthless in the eyes of the law of our Torah. We have therefore bestirred ourselves to build and establish an iron wall to protect our identity and religious integrity and to bolster the strong foundations of our faith and religious purity which we have maintained for many centuries going back to our country of origin, Syria.
We, the undersigned rabbis, constituting the Religious Court, together with the Executive Committee of the Magen David Congregation and the outstanding laymen of the community, do hereby decree, with the authority of our Holy Torah, that no male or female member of our community has the right to intermarry with non. Jews; this law covers conversions, which we consider to be fictitious and valueless. We further decree that no future rabbinic court of the community should have the right or authority to convert male Or female non-Jews who seek to marry into our community. We have followed the example of the community in Argentina, which main. tains a rabbinic ban on any of the marital arrangements enumerated above, an edict which has received the wholehearted and unqualified endorsement of the Chief Rabbinate in Israel. This responsa is discussed in detail in Devar Sha 'ul, Yoreh Deah, Part II to Part VI. In the event that any member of our community should ignore our ruling and marry, their issue will have to suffer the consequences. Announcements to this effect will be made advising the community not to allow any marriage with children of such converts. We are confident that the Jewish People are a holy people and they will adhere to the decision of their rabbis and will not conceive of doing otherwise.
Chief Rabbi Haim Tawil
Rabbi Jacob Kassin
Rabbi Murad Masalton
Rabbi Moshe Gindi
Rabbi Moshe Dweck Kassab
A SUBSEQUENT CLARIFICATION OF THE ORIGINAL PROCLAMATION
Adar 5706 (February 1946) On the 9th day of Adar I in the year 5706 corresponding to the 10th day of February, 1946, the rabbis of the community and the Committee of Magen David Congregation once again discussed the question of intermarriage and conversions. The following religious rabbinic decisions were promulgated and accepted:
I. Our community will never accept any converts, male or female, for marriage.
2. The rabbi will not perform any religious ceremonies for such couples, i.e., marriages, circumcisions, bar mitzvahs, etc. In fact, the Congregation's premises will be barred to them for use of any religious or social nature.
3. The Mesadrim of the Congregation will not accord any honors to the convert or one married to a convert, such as offering himlln an Aliyah to the Sefer Torah. In addition, the aforesaid person, male or female, will not be allowed to purchase a seat, permanently (If for the holidays, in our Congregations.
4. After death of said person, he or she is not to be buried on the cemetery of our community, known as Rodfe Zedek, regardless elf financial considerations. Seal of the Beth Din of Magen David Congregation
Chief Rabbi Jacob S. Kassin
REAFFIRMING OUR TRADITION
WHEREAS. throughout the history of our community, our rabbis and lay leaders have always recognized the threat of conversions and the danger of intermarriage and assimilation; and have issued warnings and proclamations concerning these evils in February 1935, February 1946 and in May 1972. NOW. THEREFORE, we assembled rabbis and Presidents of the congregations and organizations of the Syrian and Near Eastern Jewish communities of Greater New York and New Jersey do now and hereby reaffirm these proclamations, and pledge ourselves to uphold, enforce and promulgate these regulations. We further declare that Shabbat Shuvah of each year be designated as a day to urge our people to rededicate themselves to these principles. IN WITNESS WHEREOF, we have caused this document to he prepared and have affixed our signatures thereto, at a special convocation held on this third day of Sivan 5744 corresponding to the 3rd day of June. 1984.
Dr. Jacob S. Kassin Chief Rabbi
The proclamation was signed by the rabbis and presidents of every synagogue. yeshivah. and social organization of the Sephardic Jcwish communities of New York and New Jersey.
Wednesday, April 30, 2008
Rav Kook zt"l - Supported Argentina ban on conversion - for welfare of Jews and non-Jews
Rav Kook (Daas Cohen Y.D. #154): [Written to the rabbis of Argentina] Even though the halacha is that those who convert for ulterior motives are valid gerim (Yevamos 24b) and this includes a man who converts for the sake of a woman and a woman who converts for the sake of a man, it appears from Tosfos (Chullin 3b) and Yevamos (24b) that this is only if the conversion involves a full commitment to keeping the mitzvos. But if the conversion is not complete –meaning without full observance of the mitzvos and also the motivation was not proper – then they are worse then regular lion‑converts that are mentioned there in a braissa. There is one opinion that these lion‑converts are genuine gerim but they are like the Kusim because according to the view that they are lion‑converts they are considered according to the halacha as total non‑Jews because there are two problems. 1) the conversion was not for the sake of Heaven 2) they don’t fully observe the mitzvos because as a minimum they worship idols through shituf as is learned from the verse “and yet they still worship their gods.” The language of Tosfos in Chullin is that they didn’t convert completely and thus it was not only idolatry that they violated. Thus in any case where the mitzvos are not observed properly and the motivation wasn’t proper – then there is no conversion at all. We see this in the language of the Rambam and Shulchan Aruch (Y.D. 248) that a person who converts for ulterior motivation, we are concerned about him until his righteousness is established. In other words if we see that he is not conducting himself properly according to the halacha and he had ulterior motivation for conversion – this is not considered complete conversion. In fact by accepting a ger who is not going to be observant, we transgress the prohibition of placing a stumbling block before the blind in any case. For if we say that the conversion is not valid even bedieved and yet we accepted them – then that causes problems for society because they are treating non‑Jews as Jews. How many snares and destructions results from that – especially concerning kiddushin, gittin and yibum. The Jewish husband will mistakenly view their son as his son and if he has a Jewish wife afterwards and he dies without other children, his wife will be mistakenly allowed to remarry without chalitza even if he has a brother. There are many other harmful cases that can result. On the other hand if they are truly gerim then bedieved they are fully obligated to keep the entire Torah. Then the beis din causes the gerim problems because they are now obligated in punishment because of all the Torah prohibitions they are violating. Prior to conversion they were not obligated and not punished for transgressing the Torah. We see this in Yevamos (47a) that we are to instruct the candidate for conversion the punishment for not keeping the mitzvos. We tell him , “you should know that before you came to convert, if you ate chelev fat there was no punishment of kares. If you transgressed Shabbos you would not be punished with stoning. However once you convert , eating chelev fat is punishable with kares and profaning Shabbos is punished with stoning. Thus we see that we are commanded about lifnei ivair (placing a stumbling block before the blind – even for non‑Jews. This is stated in Avoda Zara (6b): How do you know that you should not offer a limb from a living animal to a non‑Jew? Because the Torah says “do not place a stumbling block before the blind.” And it is a kal v’chomer concerning our case because he causes him to be have a great obligation as a Jew and he will be punished for his transgressions of the Torah. Therefore it is wonderful what you and the other holy rabbis [of Argentina] have done in making and strengthening the boundaries in Argentina where there is a great breakdown in the walls and there is a great number of gerim who are not sincere – and you have decided not to accept gerim at all. Whoever genuinely wants to attach themselves to the holy Jewish people should come to Israel where they will carefully be evaluated by the Jewish courts. Only those who are genuinely committed to converting for the sake of Heaven and will be fully observant - will be accepted…
R' Moshe Feinstein zt"l - invalidating conversion for non-observant gerim
Igros Moshe (Even ha-Ezer 4:78): Concerning a woman who was married by a Conservative rabbi - in Houston who is known to openly violate Shabbos - to a man who was born in San Salvador to a non‑Jewish woman. The Conservative rabbi there claimed that he converted her together with two local men who were open Shabbos violators because he said that no one observes Shabbos in El Salvador. It is clear that the conversion is of no significance so that even if this couple were married by an Orthodox rabbi according to the halacha it still would have no significance because he is a full non‑Jew for whom kiddushin has no halachic significance. Furthermore even if he were converted by a Torah observant beis din – since he has not observed Torah mitzvos even for a moment he has not accepted the obligation of mitzvos - this is not considered conversion. However if he was a valid ger or was a Jew from birth, the marriage by a Conservative rabbi – who is presumed to deny the foundation principles of Judaism even though we don’t actually know the person and surely here where it is known for certain that he openly violates Shabbos –has no halachic significance. Consequently we have two clear factors why the marriage has no significance and therefore she is permitted to marry another man – but not a cohen since she has had sexual relations with a non‑Jew which disqualifiers her from marrying a cohen.
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Dear Rabbi Eidensohn:
You state: "I am merely responding to your accusation that for a community to ban conversion and converts because of the widespread failure to be able to discern sincere candidates is anti-halacha and against the hashkofa that we were sent into exile to gather gerim."
Indeed I stand by my assertions and I still cannot fathom how you cite these mekoros that you do as being potentially applicable "bechol asar ve'asar" meaning in any place anywhere which is just NOT something you can derive from the sources you cite. Do you reallly think that what the Syrian rabbis did in the 20th century has any real connection to the lomdus, hashkofa and halacha in the sources you cite? Not at all. They took a look at was happening around them and screamed bloody murder at the mutiny of their flock who were "voting out of the faith" by marrying non-Jewish women and they decided to take a radical step. Did they go around and ask every last Godol on Earth at the time, including all the Sefardishe poskim, if what they proposed to do was in keeping with millenia old Yiddishkeit? And I tender to you that they did not, they panicked, put up this notorious Takana, and then found a few opinions here and there that sort of back them up. Did Rav Kook or Frank institute any such similar things for the Kehillas and Talmidim they led in Europe or in Eretz Yisroel in spite of what they wrote and allegedly "meant" to the far-away Syrians in Argentina? Decidedly no! Why, because they understood and knew full well that it is unheard of to institute such measures.
By all means pasul the geirus of others, like Satmar that does not accept the rulings of most other Batei Din, not in geirus not in gittin and not in kashrus, that is within Halachah, that one tzad is not mechuyav to be mekabel yenem's piskei di as long as they have what to be somech on, but to stand up and say you are issuing a blanket Takana "AS IF" you were now Rabbeinu Gershom, is utterly preposterous, and that is why you will not find either Rav Frank or Rav Kook or any gadol doing such things for their own people. And that is why I say what the Syrians did is anti-Halachik because it goes against the norm.
In fact none of the Syrian rabbis who signed the Takana can be deemed to be what we would today call a "gadol" in the fullest sense of the word so why do we have to accept or be machshiv what they said when it goes keneged hasechel and keneged Torah peshutah?
Then you say: "I don't understand how you would extrapolate from these sources that I am advocating a universal ban. I am just defending the right of the rabbonim of a particular community to institute such a ban."
Which I find very hard to believe the longer I stick around on your blog and read the stream of things you are pushing that seems to me klor that you want to do do to every Bais Din in the world what Rav Shternbuch and the BADATZ did to EJF -- but that is not going to work and you will only marginalize yourself and make yourself seem like a crackpot trying to push a pet project that the whole world (meaning the world of reliable Batei Din) will just not accept.
It is all fine and good that you hold by Rav Shternbuch and the BADATZ, terrific, it's a huge madreigah, but you cannot expect every last Charedi and Orthodox Jew to accept such a supremely high and almost impossible madreigah too. And you seem to be using this whole Syrian Takana ma'aseh, that no-one in the Torah world is even goires, because very few people have respect for what the Syrian Jewish community has achieved in terms of Torah true Judaism, they are more famous in Brooklyn for their "heterim" to ride bicycles on Shabbos down Ocean Parkway, skinny ladies wearing pants jogginbg down Ocean Parkway, building huge mansions, vacationing in Deal and on the Jersey coast as if they were on the French Riviera, and spending tons of money on lavish luxuries and outlandish Bar and Bat mitzvas and playing wink-and-look-away games with their rabbis than taking grandiose Takanas not to marry shiksa seriously.
Other groups also have corruption, but two wrongs don't make a right.
Among other groups, like Chasidim and Yeshiva-leit there are also problems but of a different nature and scale. The takanos so far in recent times are pretty lame, the rabbonim made some takanos about not going to concerts but that does not come to not accepting geirim.
No doubt there are kanoim lurking everywhere waiting to strike and in good time we will hear about attempts to disallow ALL genuine geirei tzedek from becoming geirim, but this is a big jump, and there is a wide chasm between modern Syrians in their personal SUVs and sportscars for everyone in the family with Haredim packed one family into two rooms in Meah Shearim, for now...
There are better ways to fight assimilation than Takanos and gezeiros. Think Ahavas Yisroel, Chinuch, Kiruv, Yeshivas, Bais Yaakovs, day schools, shulls, youth movements.
But the Syrians are really still not ready to hear this.
Do you known that in the Sefardic bikkur cholim in Brooklyn dominated by the SYs that they know that they need social workers but they have set up a cocamamy system that a social worker must be tagged by a communuty worker so that no community secrets leak out. Have you ever heard of such things? You are a psychologist, would you accept that every patient you see MUST be co-handled by a member of the Kehila they come from and that you would have to share all session notes, consultations with colleagues, everything, with some community appointed watchdog less-than-a-rebbetzin? Well that is the way the Syrians function, they want "Orthodoxy" but on their own terms, and what they get is just hypocrisy and a huge mess that they then try to stop with silly "takanos" that only makes them into the laughingstock of the Torah world, like little Mike needs a monitor to keep him in check, and it gets them absolutely nowhere and it is surprisng that you are willing to defend such shtus and to even go digging up mekoros for them and shtel them tzu like arbes tzum vant.
Maybe that is why Jersey Girl has a chip on her shoulder against Aish HaTorah, Chabad, and other Kiruv operations and why you harp on and on about the "Lakewood Ger fiasco" (and it was a fiasco, I agree with you) because it's just a way of laying the groundwork for a total ban against all converts which Rav Shternbuch or the BADATZ may have in the offing but which will only isolate them further and thrust them into looking no better than the Neturei Karta anti-Zionists who have turned logic and Yidishkeit upside down in order to "save it from itself."
If you want to see where opposing something to the extreme can lead, just take a look at the nut jobs who travelled to Tehran and were even willing to deny the Holocaust just to make the point that they are against Zionism. Not that I am comaparing Zionism to geirus, but one needs to watch out for the danger of falling down a slippery slope of being "protesteth too much" when just a little moderation, even for those proposing extreme views, is in order, both humanly and Halachically.
Recipients and Publicity said...
Which I find very hard to believe the longer I stick around on your blog and read the stream of things you are pushing that seems to me klor that you want to do do to every Bais Din in the world what Rav Shternbuch and the BADATZ did to EJF -- but that is not going to work and you will only marginalize yourself and make yourself seem like a crackpot trying to push a pet project that the whole world (meaning the world of reliable Batei Din) will just not accept.
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Your comments seem increasing detached from reality. You are creating a conspiracy theory - which to put it politely is baloney.
As I have stated a number of time I have no problem with changes and varying standards which reflect the needs of the times. I do demand that the halachic rulings be presented in a cogent manner with the sources clearly explained as well as proof of who is poskening.
Thus I have no problem with a community such as the Syrian banning gerim they deem as insincere. I have no problem with Rabbi Tropper accepting intermarried couples - if he can show a written letter from Rav Eliashiv or some other gadol that clearly supports such action and why. I also would like some clear evidence that what ever rulings are followed actually improve the situation.
Your own creative interpretations and story telling about what happened and why - simply doesn't qualify as serious halachic discourse. Your conjecture about a wide variety of topics doesn't constitute objective facts
Why don't you come back down to earth. Your intelligence can be put to better use in helping clarifying the issues rather than villifying others.