tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post8661318119269068306..comments2024-03-28T21:30:33.665+02:00Comments on Daas Torah - Issues of Jewish Identity: R' Yair Hoffman audio :Grossman executionDaas Torahhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comBlogger72125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-32769103647161958552010-03-05T17:05:42.803+02:002010-03-05T17:05:42.803+02:00See Shut Chasam Sofer 6:14. It clearly states non-...See Shut Chasam Sofer 6:14. It clearly states non-Jewish courts have no right to execute a Jewish person. Period.Shlomo Zalmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12854883031763659377noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-82868731318679434322010-02-26T11:20:55.652+02:002010-02-26T11:20:55.652+02:00>Jewish society maintains the ability in exile ...>Jewish society maintains the ability in exile to "execute" a moiser or a rodef. It lacks that authority for crimes such as murder, Chillul Shabbos, etc.<<br /><br />There are many kinds of informers... Are there any restrictions as to the kinds of moisers that can be executed? (I sure hope so!)<br /><br />How can a murderer not be executable when killing him may very well save future lives?Joseph2noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-14041244042648615562010-02-26T11:05:14.702+02:002010-02-26T11:05:14.702+02:00(If your kind enough to post this final [really!] ...(If your kind enough to post this final [really!] point of mine - and you can have the final word.)<br /><br />That applies in a dire circumstance only. It wasn't applicable in every traditional Torah death penalty case (i.e. Avoda Zora or Retzicha.)<br /><br />1) Martin Grossman posed no dire circumstance to society. And 2) his crime wouldn't have qualified under Jewish law for him to be turned over to the secular authorities based on Choshen Mishpat siman 2.Y. N.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-37872782990068474252010-02-26T10:58:59.689+02:002010-02-26T10:58:59.689+02:00Y. N. said...
Jewish society maintains the ab...Y. N. said...<br /><br /> Jewish society maintains the ability in exile to "execute" a moiser or a rodef. It lacks that authority for crimes such as murder, Chillul Shabbos, etc.<br />=============<br />discussing this with you is simply a waste of time - you simple don't listen.<br /><br />Simon beis choshen mishpat a society can do what ever is necessary for its well being. In a time when the Jewish community can not legally execute - then it is permitted to aske the secular government - this was done by the Rosh and others.<br /><br />This is my last response and I am not posting anymore of your comments on this subject.Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-28026972113090552272010-02-26T10:53:25.969+02:002010-02-26T10:53:25.969+02:00Jewish society maintains the ability in exile to &...Jewish society maintains the ability in exile to "execute" a moiser or a rodef. It lacks that authority for crimes such as murder, Chillul Shabbos, etc.Y. N.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-75114625371505162612010-02-26T10:51:05.600+02:002010-02-26T10:51:05.600+02:00But there are NO judicially ordered death penalty ...But there are NO judicially ordered death penalty (i.e. for murder or chillul Shabbos) in the absence of the Sanhedrin.<br />=============<br />where have you been? You are just going in circles. Without a Sanhedrin the sanhedrin can not execute someone?!<br /><br />We have been talking from the very beginning of the right of a society - Jewish or non-Jewish to use capital punishment. See siman 2 in Choshen Mishpat.Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-4048438865383895032010-02-26T10:10:15.451+02:002010-02-26T10:10:15.451+02:00DT: That's a different issue. Extra-judicial k...DT: That's a different issue. Extra-judicial killings are authorized even today. Rav Avigdor Miller zt'l (I believe) also related such an incident. Even today a moiser can be killed. A rodef also can be killed today.<br /><br />But there are NO judicially ordered death penalty (i.e. for murder or chillul Shabbos) in the absence of the Sanhedrin.Y. N.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-13334693382421846982010-02-26T10:07:17.059+02:002010-02-26T10:07:17.059+02:00Y. N. said...
"So does that mean that si...Y. N. said...<br /><br /> "So does that mean that since there hasn't been a comparable Bais Din in two thousand years that a Jewish murderer (and, yes, there have been some!) can never be executed by society?"<br /><br /> j2:<br /> Absolutely correct. Until the Sanhedrin reconvene, there is NO authorization for carrying out the death penalty - your gut feeling notwithstanding.<br />=============<br />Y.N. you are the one who is wrong. You are obviously not familiar with the teshuva literature.<br /><br />Rav Sternbuch told me that his grandfather told of a mosair who was killed at the direction of the community rabbisDaas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-1984229946275397582010-02-26T10:03:14.594+02:002010-02-26T10:03:14.594+02:00"So does that mean that since there hasn'...<i>"So does that mean that since there hasn't been a comparable Bais Din in two thousand years that a Jewish murderer (and, yes, there have been some!) can never be executed by society?"</i><br /><br />j2:<br />Absolutely correct. Until the Sanhedrin reconvene, there is NO authorization for carrying out the death penalty - your gut feeling notwithstanding.Y. N.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-48941988730300212372010-02-26T08:37:34.850+02:002010-02-26T08:37:34.850+02:00>those that R Eleizer reported were executed by...>those that R Eleizer reported were executed by the Roman government<<br /><br />Right. But since they were 'only' thieves, I could see why it'd be wrong to turn them over. Grossman murdered someone (not just anyone but someone whose job it was to protect society).Joseph2noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-61383229650059134892010-02-26T08:35:47.302+02:002010-02-26T08:35:47.302+02:00YN above asserts that only a Bais Din can kill a J...YN above asserts that only a Bais Din can kill a Jew. So does that mean that since there hasn't been a comparable Bais Din in two thousand years that a Jewish murderer (and, yes, there have been some!) can never be executed by society?<br /><br />My gut feeling, which usually turns out to be correct as far as I can tell, is that this cannot be so.Joseph2noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-3663695066362246432010-02-26T08:34:50.414+02:002010-02-26T08:34:50.414+02:00Joseph2 said...
btw, the case in the Gemara s...Joseph2 said...<br /><br /> btw, the case in the Gemara seems to refer to thieves and Grossman was a murderer. Doesn't that fact make a difference and therefore prevent any comparisons between the two?<br />=============<br />those that R Eleizer reported were executed by the Roman governmentDaas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-62619172767694943292010-02-26T08:32:22.718+02:002010-02-26T08:32:22.718+02:00btw, the case in the Gemara seems to refer to thie...btw, the case in the Gemara seems to refer to thieves and Grossman was a murderer. Doesn't that fact make a difference and therefore prevent any comparisons between the two?Joseph2noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-52331482675026175482010-02-26T01:58:54.160+02:002010-02-26T01:58:54.160+02:00How is the Ramban (Bereishis 34) relevant? One doe...How is the Ramban (Bereishis 34) relevant? One does not have to assist but one also does not undermine their system. And if the king commands or the welfare of society requires then a Jew is also required to comply with secular law.Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-24360997288958296372010-02-26T01:52:26.198+02:002010-02-26T01:52:26.198+02:00The Ramban you asked for, I believe, is Bereishis ...The Ramban you asked for, I believe, is Bereishis 34:14.Y. N.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-9622824351347939352010-02-26T01:51:25.730+02:002010-02-26T01:51:25.730+02:00How does this Rambam support the Meiri?!
רמב&quo...How does this Rambam support the Meiri?!<br /><br /><br />רמב"ם רוצח ושמירת הנפש ב:ד<br /><br /> <br /><br />וכל אלו הרצחנים וכיוצא בהן שאינן מחוייבים מיתת בית דין אם רצה מלך ישראל להרגם בדין המלכות ותקנת העולם הרשות בידו, וכן אם ראו בית דין להרוג אותן בהוראת שעה אם היתה השעה צריכה לכך הרי יש להם רשות כפי מה שיראו.Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-14517471973774622792010-02-26T01:50:06.320+02:002010-02-26T01:50:06.320+02:00The Chasam Sofer is not "contemporary" e...The Chasam Sofer is not "contemporary" enough for you?Y. N.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-36918412932158847322010-02-26T01:48:59.966+02:002010-02-26T01:48:59.966+02:00DT, if you look at the earlier discussion of this ...DT, if you look at the earlier discussion of this point you will also notice that in addition to the Meiri explaining the Gemorah Bava Metzia 83b like I explained it above, so does Rambam, Hilchos Rotzeach 2:4 and Tosafos, Sanhedren 20b; and the Chasam Sofer Likkutim responsa no. 14.<br />===========<br />And you should have noticed that apparently the majority of contemporary poskim disagreed with that intepretationDaas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-85527142346161852642010-02-26T01:45:45.206+02:002010-02-26T01:45:45.206+02:00DT, if you look at the earlier discussion of this ...DT, if you look at the earlier discussion of this point you will also notice that in addition to the Meiri explaining the Gemorah Bava Metzia 83b like I explained it above, so does Rambam, Hilchos Rotzeach 2:4 and Tosafos, Sanhedren 20b; and the Chasam Sofer Likkutim responsa no. 14.Y. N.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-1636269920969158352010-02-26T01:42:57.737+02:002010-02-26T01:42:57.737+02:00"please cite where the Rambam says this."...<i>"please cite where the Rambam says this."</i><br /><br />Ramban, Bereishis 34:14.Y. N.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-69197447980430617112010-02-26T01:40:59.850+02:002010-02-26T01:40:59.850+02:00Y. N. said...
Rabbi Bleich writes in Jewish L...Y. N. said...<br /><br /> Rabbi Bleich writes in Jewish Law and the State's:<br /><br /> "Nevertheless, one point requires clarification. Punishment of malfeasors may be a royal prerogative. That, however, does not establish an obligation [for Jews] to assist the king in exercising that prerogative. . .<br />==========<br />and therefore? Rav Eliashiv disagrees with your understanding of Rabbi Bleich as does Rav Wozner.<br /><br />Does Rabbi Bleich cite any sources for his assertion?Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-91021609530570368542010-02-26T01:37:25.646+02:002010-02-26T01:37:25.646+02:00Y. N. said...
Since the obligation to create ...Y. N. said...<br /><br /> Since the obligation to create dinim (under Sheva Mitzvos Bnei Noach) according to Ramban includes in it other obligations clearly not applicable to Jews (such as the creation of a general civil or secular law system governing all other than Jewish), Ramban could not accept a Jewish obligation to participate in dinim.<br />===========<br />conjecture on your part - please cite where the Rambam says this.<br /><br />Rav Wozner disagrees with your conjecture.Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-49937697817125615592010-02-26T01:35:09.488+02:002010-02-26T01:35:09.488+02:00Rabbi Bleich writes in Jewish Law and the State...Rabbi Bleich writes in Jewish Law and the State's:<br /><br />"Nevertheless, one point requires clarification. Punishment of malfeasors may be a royal prerogative. That, however, does not establish an obligation [for Jews] to assist the king in exercising that prerogative. . ."Y. N.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-59817607034627127322010-02-26T01:31:02.278+02:002010-02-26T01:31:02.278+02:00Since the obligation to create dinim (under Sheva ...Since the obligation to create dinim (under Sheva Mitzvos Bnei Noach) according to Ramban includes in it other obligations clearly not applicable to Jews (such as the creation of a general civil or secular law system governing all other than Jewish), Ramban could not accept a Jewish obligation to participate in dinim.Y. N.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-74881449348532159072010-02-26T01:28:03.026+02:002010-02-26T01:28:03.026+02:00Rabbi Eliezer was rebuked for assisting the govern...Rabbi Eliezer was rebuked for assisting the government in the prosecution of criminals, thus indicating that this conduct is not proper.<br />=============<br />you simply don't pay attention. R' Yehoshua rebuked him. But the Ritva, Rashba, Beis Yosef, Rav Moshe Halberstam, Rav Eliashiv etc etc. state that the halacha is in accord with R' Eleazar. Why do you keep repeating the view rejected as halacha?Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.com