tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post7785519962171014524..comments2024-03-29T06:06:58.796+03:00Comments on Daas Torah - Issues of Jewish Identity: Friedman-Epstein: What halachic justification?!Daas Torahhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comBlogger76125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-84176788100998477282012-04-30T15:26:38.912+03:002012-04-30T15:26:38.912+03:00AND LEAVE IT ALL TO HER PERSONAL RABBI WHO IS NOT ...AND LEAVE IT ALL TO HER PERSONAL RABBI WHO IS NOT BIASED. EMEMBER SHOCHAD YEAVAIR PIKCHIM - THE CHOFETZ CHAIM SAYS PIKCHIM REFERS TO THE GEOLAI HADORCNCERNEDnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-13240417541478146142012-04-30T01:14:54.810+03:002012-04-30T01:14:54.810+03:00I spoke to someone who spoke to someone who knew a...I spoke to someone who spoke to someone who knew all of the facts. I am happy I try to help Aharon Friedman, even though I make it a point never to mix into a fight if I personally don't know the facts, at least, I try to do that. But based on what I heard from this reliable source, the ORA side is doing a lot of demonizing that may be motsei shem ra. But don't think that will stop them. Their rebbe has issued a call for using baseball bats, and he is crazy and a criminal, so what do you expect from them? He is also completely wrong about the halacha and his halachic remarks are pure invention with no direct source in poskim, in variance with normative halacha, as I hope to present.Dovid Eidensohnhttp://www.getamarriage.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-17774171908204974532012-04-27T16:10:11.000+03:002012-04-27T16:10:11.000+03:00please take the time of learning some elementary m...please take the time of learning some elementary material before making assertion. Look at Rav Sternbuch's teshuva that I just posted. There is a basic distinction between issues for which force can be used and the case of ma'us alei. We are discussing the case of ma'us alei. You should read the other teshuvos which I posted which all agree there is a major difference with ma'us alei.Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-49533097786771530302012-04-27T15:37:16.767+03:002012-04-27T15:37:16.767+03:00You are creating an issue that doesn't exist. ...You are creating an issue that doesn't exist. In years past recalcitrant husbands were regularly coerced by various means, including violent punishment, psychological coercion, excommunication, and whatever economic penalties (like boycotts) could be applied. Rabbanim never ruled that any of these children were mamzers, of the gets invalid. You're trying to reinterpret halakha and overturn centuries of law to suit your personal whims. Please go join the reform movement where this nonsense belongs.Aharon Friedman (not him, the other one)http://www.aharonfriedman.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-37341816904879473232012-04-25T23:30:15.948+03:002012-04-25T23:30:15.948+03:00There are reasons why Tamar did not go to the Balt...<i>There are reasons why Tamar did not go to the Baltimore Beis Din but going into them in public is simply inappropriate because it will make various parties look bad.</i><br /><br />Well right now just about every party looks bad.<br /><br /><i> There were two batei din involved, neither of which reached any conclusion. There are multiple reasons why this was the case but R. Kamenetsky felt that the situation should not drag on forever once the marriage was dead.</i><br /><br />Well it sure looks like this move of RK didn't help. Now Tamar will probably never cooperate with any beis din on custody issues. Of course it won't go on forever, only until the daughter turns 18.nonenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-68584076718554812322012-04-25T18:12:47.362+03:002012-04-25T18:12:47.362+03:00There is only one beis din that heard both sides a...There is only one beis din that heard both sides and they signed an agreement to abide by its rulings. Was that the Agudas HaRabbonim beis din, was it the Washington Vaad beis din? Nope it was the Baltimore Beis din.<br /><br />Why would the Agudas HaRabbonim beis din issue a seruv if the he had come and presented his position? On the other hand if they didn't hear his side - why are they issuing a psak that he needs to give a get?<br /><br />Please explain this mystery?Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-25695775233798435182012-04-25T17:54:03.360+03:002012-04-25T17:54:03.360+03:00EmesLeYaacov,
I am not RHS's spin doctor. I ...EmesLeYaacov,<br /><br />I am not RHS's spin doctor. I am not even MO. My only point is that there has only been one BD to hear both sides of the case and that BD issued a seruv against Aharon in which it ruled that he must give a get and that we should do everything possible to make sure he releases Tamar from being an Agunah. The members of that BD included Rabbis Belsky and Kamenetsky. RHS had nothing to do with it.<br /><br />Do those Rabanim have a reform feminist agenda?Jamesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-89524430568709396482012-04-25T17:44:31.033+03:002012-04-25T17:44:31.033+03:00Is there any evidence that Aharon still has hopes ...Is there any evidence that Aharon still has hopes that Tamar will realize she made a mistake and return to him? You are seeking to rebut Rabbi Broyde's theoretical arguments with "facts" that are not supported by any evidence.Jamesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-45174281839289895792012-04-25T17:40:23.451+03:002012-04-25T17:40:23.451+03:00Facts,
Tot he best of my knowledge, Aharon was the...Facts,<br />Tot he best of my knowledge, Aharon was the first one to go to secular court, NOT Tamar. Does that change your view of the case?Jamesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-33114936540013418742012-04-25T17:30:11.534+03:002012-04-25T17:30:11.534+03:00R' Student's responses:
R' Eidensohn:...R' Student's responses:<br /><br />R' Eidensohn: Why is it the Epstein did not go back to the Baltimore Bais din to ask for a Get if she was entitled to one??<br />Two independent Bais Din/Community Vaad came to the same Halachic conclusion that there was no requirement for Friedman to give a Get at that time. Yet RMS and RSK (who never spoke to Friedman) went against the Bais Din??<br />Is this common practive for Yichidim (no matter how great they may be) to go against a Bais Din??<br /><br />R' Student: These are all good questions but irrelevant to our current situation, in which everyone agrees that Aharon must give a get to Tamar.<br /><br />There are reasons why Tamar did not go to the Baltimore Beis Din but going into them in public is simply inappropriate because it will make various parties look bad. I assume the RMS above is supposed to be R. Hershel Schachter. He did not go against the Baltimore Beis Din for two reasons: 1) the Beis Din never issued any ruling, 2) RHS spoke with them on the phone.<br /><br />R' Eidensohn: The Halachic opinions brought down are interesting – but what seems to be left out was that RMS/ORA & RSK completly ignored the independent Bais Din that Friedman/Epstein agreed to abide by???<br /><br />R' Student: There were two batei din involved, neither of which reached any conclusion. There are multiple reasons why this was the case but R. Kamenetsky felt that the situation should not drag on forever once the marriage was dead.<br /><br />The key question is this: Is Aharon obligated to give Tamar a get? Regardless of the long and winding history of the acrimonious divorce, the answer is clearly yes.Ynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-19532557324492073172012-04-25T10:18:14.739+03:002012-04-25T10:18:14.739+03:00RaffiApr 24, 2012 06:28 PM
What did deference to ...RaffiApr 24, 2012 06:28 PM<br /><br />What did deference to authority do during the Holocaust?<br />Delete<br />============<br />He was referring to the general passivity because major rabbis had told their followers to stay put or that there was no danger. Rav Soleveitchik felt that if the lower eschelon rabbis or the population relied on their own judgment more people would have survived.Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-3417524983698729652012-04-25T10:03:56.244+03:002012-04-25T10:03:56.244+03:00In a prior exchange R' Student asserted the fo...In a prior exchange R' Student asserted the following:<br /><br />R' Student's replies:<br /><br />R’ Eidensohn: why was ORA demonstrating a year before the psak of Rav Kaminesky?<br /><br />R' Student: To my knowledge, this is incorrect.<br /><br />[The following was posted on Torah Musings Blog and serves as a clear rebuttal to his claim]<br />================================<br /><br />Yisroel Stein on April 24, 2012 at 11:31 pm<br /><br />For a better understanding of what ORA is trying to accomplish one should listen to what they are saying.<br /><br />http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/02/29/congressman-facing-pressure-from-jewish-groups-on-advisers-religious-divorce/<br />The Organization for the Resolution of Agunot (figuratively “chained”) has been leading a campaign against Friedman. In a letter to Friedman last fall, director Rabbi Jeremy Stern called his actions “tragic.”<br />“We see the refusal to issue a get as a form of domestic abuse,” Stern told FoxNews.com.<br />He said the Jewish community certainly has started to discuss whether a rabbi should be able to officiate a divorce without one party’s permission — but said the community “is not at a point right now where they’re willing to fundamentally change how Jewish marriage and divorce works.”<br /><br />The goal of ORA is to “fundamentally change how Jewish marriage and divorce works.”<br /><br />A little bit of history. In December 2010 ORA held its first series of rallies against Friedman. At that time the case was being handled by the Baltimore Bais Din. http://washingtonjewishweek.com/main.asp?SectionID=4&SubSectionID=4&ArticleID=14039 “Currently, the Epstein-Friedman case remains open but dormant, as “neither party has approached” the Baltimore beit din, requesting that it reconvene, according to Rabbi Mordechai Shuchatowitz, a rabbi on the court. “Right now,” he said, “the ball is in [Epstein's] court” because, as the party seeking the get, she is responsible for reinitiating proceedings. Since the court has yet officially to order a get, Shuchatowitz said, it’s “a bit premature” to be holding rallies and other events meant “to pressure [Friedman] because he’s not been given his day in court.” After all, “you can’t disobey something you’ve not been told to do.”<br /><br />At the same time the Silver Spring Vaad issued a community letter which stated in part “First, at this time there is no Bet Din order for Mr. Friedman to give a get.<br />Second, there is no Bet Din statement indicating a refusal to comply with a Bet Din’s order to give a get (a siruv) that exists at this time.<br />Third, the Baltimore Bet Din considers the matter of the get to be part of the original case. If a get is requested from that Bet Din they will then rule on that request.<br /><br />Why is it the Epstein did not go back to the Baltimore Bais din to ask for a Get if she was entitled to one??<br /><br />Two independent Bais Din/Community Vaad came to the same Halachic conclusion that there was no requirement for Friedman to give a Get at that time. Yet RMS and RSK (who never spoke to Friedman) went against the Bais Din?? Is this common practive for Yichidim (no matter how great they may be) to go against a Bais Din??<br /><br />The Halachic opinions brought down are interesting – but what seems to be left out was that RMS/ORA & RSK completly ignored the independent Bais Din that Friedman/Epstein agreed to abide by???Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-69632530474304660732012-04-25T06:40:32.664+03:002012-04-25T06:40:32.664+03:00Thank You Rav Eidensohn for standing up for what&#...Thank You Rav Eidensohn for standing up for what's right.Chaim Dovnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-25593686777188891882012-04-25T06:18:33.003+03:002012-04-25T06:18:33.003+03:00Rabbi Ralbag told me and another person that the S...Rabbi Ralbag told me and another person that the Siruv does not demand a GET, only that he come to Beth Din. How that fits in with the language of the Siruv I don't know, but that is what he told me and another person.<br /><br />He and another person associated with that Beth Din told me it is forbidden to publicly demonstrate against the husband.Dovid Eidensohnhttp://www.getamarriage.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-49680239627422455202012-04-25T05:30:18.651+03:002012-04-25T05:30:18.651+03:00r kaminetsky heard only one side of the story- whe...r kaminetsky heard only one side of the story- when a representative of aharon went to speak to him year ago he said thee is nothing to talk about let him give a get. he is not a dayan in this case he is the epstein family rabbi. no bais din ever said that there is aany chiyuv gfor aharon to give a get. most rabonuim who have knowledge of this story have said that tamar is a moredes and far from being an agunah. but with all her money she decided that she wishes to be ora's poster girl - instead of negotiating a settlement. her advisors are giving her very bad adviceconcerenednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-55727230639491805492012-04-25T04:53:24.833+03:002012-04-25T04:53:24.833+03:00I see that R' Gil has already responded to you...I see that R' Gil has already responded to your reply above so I will let him discuss the particulars of this case. <br /><br />I do not say that you have to be "mevatel daas" to the rabbanim on that list and I supported you on child abuse and Tropper (so did RHS, btw.) The difference here is that we are not dealing with a theoretical discussion as to the advisability of reporting child molesters in which the discussion can center on law and policy. We are dealing with a fact specific case and every one of those gedolim spent weeks if not months investigating and talking to both sides. As Gil Student makes clear, Rav Belsky began his investigations in opposition to RHS. Those Rabbanim issued a psak din, not a Daas Torah. <br /><br />You have written books on child molestation and are entitled to your opinion on the halacha. It is a valuable opinion and one that needs to be heard, and, in my opinion, one that is correct. However, your opinion on this matter is not based on familiarity with the parties, investigation into the facts, or discussions with RHS, RSK, or any other Gadol involved and is therefore not as valuable.<br /><br />Perhaps if your blog didnt contain slanderous references to Sh(l)achter, or the other rabbanim, one of them might answer your phone call. Your brother's attacks on those rabbanim were probably some of the most malicious. <br /><br />Lastly, I have stated above that the language of the seruv is rather tame and could never be considered a call for violence. In contrast, your brother's blog (getamarriage.com) states "Help us destroy those who initiate gender wars." That language is not defensible.Jamesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-16793759849312012622012-04-25T04:28:04.447+03:002012-04-25T04:28:04.447+03:00What did deference to authority do during the Holo...What did deference to authority do during the Holocaust?Raffihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01130385791489278624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-26919537425174386792012-04-25T03:43:56.584+03:002012-04-25T03:43:56.584+03:00Rabosai, we now see Herschel Schachter's spin ...Rabosai, we now see Herschel Schachter's spin doctors (Y, James, etc.) roaring into action with a frantic disinformation campaign after Schachter's vicious halachic violations have been exposed for all to see.<br /><br />The fact is that ORA and Schachter have been trampling on the Torah divorce laws now for quite a few years by promoting Get meuso, mamzerim, m'sirah, archaos, and Jewish family destruction, in many, many divorce cases, long before the Friedman case. See the Bais Din letter at http://rabbischachter.blogspot.com/<br /><br />The moder-dox demagogues and politicos can make all the comments they like about "second rate talmidei chachomim", but the fact remains one will not be able to find any respected Chareidi Gittin authorities who back the ORA reform feminist agenda.EmesLeYaacovnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-47654509549767527422012-04-25T03:26:48.447+03:002012-04-25T03:26:48.447+03:00What mess? What relevance does the broader context...What mess? What relevance does the broader context have on this individual case? It does look like the broader context is about an organization out to fix the laws. <br /><br />This particular case looks like a custody battle. If we could only get these two in front of a mutually agreed upon beis din to settle both the custody dispute and the get issue this case would go away. But it sounds like Tamar is unwilling to have the custody issue resolved by a beis din. She'd much rather hold on to what the courts gave her (which apparently is a lot more then what she would have gotten if Aharon wasn't trying to go through beis din). Now Tamar is trying to have one issue resolved by a beis din without the other. It's a nice trick, but it's not working. <br /><br />Tamar and Aharon are both currently chained together by choice. Either one could end this, but thanks to ORA's polarizing methods (for the good of the broader context), that's not likely to happen. Tamar will probably get her get when her daughter turns 18.nonenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-32082301995798382342012-04-25T03:20:42.662+03:002012-04-25T03:20:42.662+03:00When was the last time Schachter/ORA protested aga...When was the last time Schachter/ORA protested against women going to secular court againstHalochoh without a heter? When was the last time that they protested against women making false claims of molestation and other mesirah? When was the last time they protested against women preventing their children from seeing their father? When was the last time they protested the destruction of men who don't have the resources to fight against the multi-billion $ court machine which completely favors women in the US?<br /><br />When was the last time they put a cheirem on a woman?<br /><br />J/ James/ the Pope these are not Rabbis no matter what they know. They have zero credibility and should be in cheriem themselves!<br /><br />It is funny how all of a sudden they quote Rav Moshe. Do you think Reb Moseh was in favor of mesirah and arko;oys? <br /><br />Belsky was already told more than a decade ago to stay clear of Gittin. Who cares what he comes up with - it is irrelevant.Factsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-73551624401304073942012-04-25T02:09:15.677+03:002012-04-25T02:09:15.677+03:00R' Student's replies:
R’ Eidensohn: why w...R' Student's replies:<br /><br />R’ Eidensohn: why was ORA demonstrating a year before the psak of Rav Kaminesky?<br /><br />R' Student: To my knowledge, this is incorrect.<br /><br />R’ Eidensohn: Rav Henkin’s view is that when both parties have given up on the marriage – but is that true? Did ORA have a beis din that established that Aharon had given up on the marriage when they started their demonstration. The answer is no.<br /><br />R' Student: Correct, they had a pesak from R. Shmuel Kamenetsky.<br /><br />R' Eidensohn: It is nice to reverse engineer ORA position and justification – However Rav Henkin and Rav Moshe were not part of their reasoning<br /><br />R' Student:I heard this reasoning — without mention of Rav Henkin and Rav Moshe — a long time ago. This was precisely their justification.<br /><br />R' Eidensohn: If Aharon as of the present moment still has hopes that Tamar will realize she made a mistake and return to him – would he say no?<br /><br />R' Student:Why do we need an “if” when so many people have spoken with him about this? He fully acknowledges that the marriage is over.<br /><br />R’ Eidensohn: one of the conditions for Harchakos of Rabbeinu Tam is the ability to escape the social pressure by moving out of town. ORA is everywhere. ORA is not less than Rabbeinu Tam – it is worse.<br /><br />R' Student:This is not true. He could easily move to Israel and entirely escape ORA.<br /><br />[response to another poster, which are also relevant:]<br /><br />MMHY: 1. no bet din “ordered” get, just recomended one.<br /><br />Nonsense. They obligated him to divorce her. Note that only the seruv was made public because it is necessary for the public to know about seruvim. Not all documents relating to this case are public (which means I haven’t seen them either).Ynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-89398504118486146672012-04-25T01:31:55.645+03:002012-04-25T01:31:55.645+03:00Why do I need to answer your questions? R. Gil has...Why do I need to answer your questions? R. Gil has already done so. Perhaps if you had honestly sought to understand what Rav Schachter's involvement was (hundreds of hours of his time for one), instead of besmirching him on the blogosphere first, you wouldn't have gotten into this mess. It's a shame that someone who has done so much good work has joined the lunatic bandwagon. Do you not realize what the broader context of this struggle is? Let me just say that the rabbis campaigning against agunot are not usually those who fight for victims of child abuse...J.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-57371070358270091012012-04-25T01:18:58.693+03:002012-04-25T01:18:58.693+03:00you are 100% correct if you want to rely on "...you are 100% correct if you want to rely on "Daas Torah" and ad hominem attacks. I assume if Rabbi Levin supported ORA you would switch positions? Instead of saying "my rabbi is bigger than you" - which I totally agree - why don't you answer my questions. If you don't have answers - than just be silent.<br /><br />It is interesting that when I was up against Tropper I got the same thing thrown at me. How could all the gedolim - including Rav Shmuel Kaminetsky and Rav Reuven Feinstein etc etc be wrong. <br /><br />When I got involved in the Hersh case - how could a gadol like Rav Aaron do anything wrong.<br /><br />When I got involved in child abuse issue it was the same thing. How could all the rabbis - including Rav Shumel Kaminetsky and Rav Belsky - be saying that you can't report abuse because of mesira, lashon harah etc. <br /><br />So of course your are right - experience has shown that it is always best to accept authority. Why listen to a 2nd (3rd rate?) rabbi with no communal responsibility?<br /><br />It is interesting that Rabbi Rakefet told me that Rav Soleveitchik tried to instill greater independence of thought at YU because he saw what the deference to authority did during the Holocaust. Unfortunately it looks like he failed.<br /><br />BTW to assert that all the reputable rabbonim and poskim who have dealt with this case are against me - is simply a lie or you are totally ignorant of reality.Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-60286895663251988012012-04-25T00:49:29.818+03:002012-04-25T00:49:29.818+03:00So it's Dr. Eidensohn against all the reputabl...So it's Dr. Eidensohn against all the reputable rabbonim and poskim who have dealt with this case. I know whose side I'm on. As R. Gil said, it's time for the second rate talmidei chachomim with no communal responsibilities to move out of the way. The fact that Yehuda Levin is on Aharon's side is telling.J.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-57029176965838129342012-04-25T00:22:36.267+03:002012-04-25T00:22:36.267+03:00GS: Rav Henkin’s position is more than enough supp...GS: Rav Henkin’s position is more than enough support that there is a chiyuv to give a get. Once there is a chiyuv, there is ample support to protest, which is even less than the Harchakos of Rabbeinu Tam.<br />================<br />one of the conditions for Harchakos of Rabbeinu Tam is the ability to escape the social pressure by moving out of town. ORA is everywhere. ORA is not less than Rabbeinu Tam - it is worse.Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.com