tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post7470244471580269855..comments2024-03-29T12:21:24.976+03:00Comments on Daas Torah - Issues of Jewish Identity: Lakewood Wakeup! Your rabbis need to publicly apologize for their public abuse of Rabbi "S"Daas Torahhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comBlogger47125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-59781351031742461002013-06-20T19:13:43.253+03:002013-06-20T19:13:43.253+03:00A public apology to Rabbi "S" is a good ...A public apology to Rabbi "S" is a good start - it at least shows that the same Rabbis who were too quick to demonize and accuse can show by example that they have the humility and character it takes to begin to rectify the wrong they perpetrated. They denounced in public, so the apology must be in public as well. It is that simple!<br />But the issue goes well beyond Lakewood. Orthodox Judaism itself is facing a serious crisis. Rabbis (and the yeshivish and and chareidi education system) has made "Daas Torah" a new tenet of Judaism: If "the Rabbis" say so it must be adhered to. No matter what. It's "Daas Torah!!!" <br />If I were walking down the street and saw someone attacking a child I would intervene. Do I need to pull out my cell phone and call my Rabbi and ask a shaila about that! No! You see someone being harmed, you protect the victim! Despite all the attempted erudition in the comments above, that is what it boiled down to. But "Daas Torah" failed to protect many children from an evil trauma, because we have turned off our common sense to this heretofore unknown concept of infallibility that is now attributed to "Daas Torah." And yet time and time again it turns out that "Daas Torah" may have torah learning, but seems to lack in the daas part of the equation, primarily because the Rabbis in question have not done sufficient research into the facts before jumping to a conclusion or proclamation. And in so doing they have covered up for abusers and pedophiles, they have banned books and concerts, they have signed on to ridiculous public proclamations of all sorts, and have failed to take a moral and righteous stand when it was clearly called for. Without doing the leg work of finding out the details for themselves how could they possibly make a rational decision?<br />Why would I listen to a proclamation made by a Rabbi who does not even take the time to research the details himself, but signs on because someone else signed it? If we saw a sefer with little research, explanation or details we would be appalled! Yet we are supposed accept it when that Rabbi proclaims a political or social stance from a pulpit or billboard sign? That is insane! And that ensures that people with even a modicum of common sense will have no reason to respect what they say. <br />To me an apology is a minimal first step! If the future shows that rabbis are willing to take stands or make proclamations without doing their own thorough investigation, then they will have legitimately lost the trust of the flock they claim to be leading. A PHD in Torah (i.e. semicha) does not mean you have daas. If these Rabbis do not value their own integrity why should I?jeffknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-829227813706184452013-06-16T10:02:29.957+03:002013-06-16T10:02:29.957+03:00Mike you raised an important point.Our justice sys...Mike you raised an important point.Our justice system is not perfect nor has it ever been perfect. Innocent people do in fact sometimes get convicted in any justice system and guilty ones sometimes go free.<br /><br />But it is true that as a result of accusations people are behaving differently. One principal I know found a student in his office - before anyone else came to scholl - and he backed out because he didn't want to have yichud with the boy. In fact I was told that Torah u'Mesorah prohibits being alone with a student in a building. Obviously the days of rebbes giving students kissing or touching in an affectionate way are over.<br /><br />Perhaps more important a spouse needs to be careful not to ever be in potentially compromising situations with his own kids because it is fairly standard in divorce cases to try and accuse the husband of child abuse.<br /><br />Regarding therapists or doctors - why limit it to females or young boys - anyone can make accusations of rape or abuse.<br /><br />this is the world we live in and we must learn to live with it. Teachers, parents etc do sexually abuse kids - sometimes. And there are kids who falsely accuse or are coached by adults to falsely accuse adults.Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-67788692399663167662013-06-16T05:52:24.104+03:002013-06-16T05:52:24.104+03:00I understand your points. Still, I hope as a psyc...I understand your points. Still, I hope as a psychologist you don't have any female clients or young boys as clients. Just one false accusation and a lifetime of reputation building down the drain. Just one vindictive or attention seeking client...mikenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-64503122293531662032013-06-15T22:59:04.252+03:002013-06-15T22:59:04.252+03:00Anonymous - I don't post anonymous comments - ...Anonymous - I don't post anonymous comments - in addition I don't publish certain language even if it only hinted at.<br /><br />Aside from that I think your comment is important - please clean it up and add a name and I will be glad to publish it.Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-18481326516365594642013-06-13T21:04:52.407+03:002013-06-13T21:04:52.407+03:00Mike this is not a new issue. The question has bee...Mike this is not a new issue. The question has been debated for centuries - is it better to have standards that many guilty go free rather than one innocent person suffer<br /><br />Even if you have witnesses - there is no guarantee they actual saw what they claim. It happens "every day of the week in this country" that people convcited by witnesses are found to be innocent.<br /><br />The Ramban goes so far was to say that even if you know that a person who was convicted of a capital crimes is innocent but you can't prove it - you should still execute him. BM 83 says that Rav Eliezer Bar Rav Shimon had people crucified on circumstantial evidence and that he had doubts about whether those he caused to be executed were guilty.<br /><br />It is up to society to determine the balance - and it isn't a simple task - but it is done "every day of the week."Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-35022666099926102092013-06-13T19:28:15.630+03:002013-06-13T19:28:15.630+03:00That's all well and good, perhaps, regarding o...That's all well and good, perhaps, regarding other types of evidence, as long as you are not considering the acceptance of a plea bargain and its attendant "confession" to mean anything at all. And I mean zero. The American justice system is broken. And corrupt. Still, I wonder how you would see things should you be on the other end of a false accusation that could destroy your life with the greatest of ease. It wouldn't take much, you know. It happens every day of the week in this country.mikenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-73216592206117513572013-06-13T07:04:37.320+03:002013-06-13T07:04:37.320+03:00Unfortunately that's not the case.
Lakewood i...Unfortunately that's not the case.<br /><br />Lakewood is a very sincere town, and child safety was and always be the primary focus. Ours was never a town that would discuss this issue.However, after a family gets so defamed the natural reaction is to protect your own family and their neighbors child second.<br /><br />The lack of outrage and public repentance is the source of only bad, there is unfortunately no way to sugarcoat this one.concernedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00725433166043905160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-58189962475263969112013-06-12T13:23:07.471+03:002013-06-12T13:23:07.471+03:00EmesLeYaakov said:
"I am NOT a troll"
I...EmesLeYaakov said:<br />"I am NOT a troll"<br /><br />If you can show how any of the accusations about gittin that you bring are in any serious way related to the stance he has taken in the various molestation cases, I will believe you.<br /><br />Otherwise you are exhibiting classic Troll behavior in attempting to derail the discussion from the topic at hand(Belsky and the molestation cases) to another topic that is tangential at best(Belsky and gittin). A topic that has time and again proven to be a point of serious contention on this blog.<br /><br />EmesLeYaakov said:<br />"I would hope the present reasonable comments will be allowed on this blog. If not, then the olam can draw its conclusions as to whether this is in fact a DaasTorah blog."<br /><br />Trolls often seem reasonable at first, that is how they seemlessly enter into the conversation in an attempt to derail it. If you really feel this way about Belsky, given the blog owner's proclivity to grant guest posts, if you were not a troll you would write a detailed summary of the problems surrounding Belsky in regards to gittin and submit them as a guest post. That way you can open up a proper dialogue about Belsky's gittin problems without derailing other discussion.<br /><br />However if you are a Troll you will continue to insist on using the comment thread while attempting to bully the blog owner into allowing your comments through with exactly this type of snide remark.<br /><br />In other words if you are not a troll then stop acting like one and prove it.Against the Trollsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-64739563859901011022013-06-12T10:57:42.746+03:002013-06-12T10:57:42.746+03:00Mike I have a bridge to sell you!
Aside from the ...Mike I have a bridge to sell you!<br /><br />Aside from the son's testimony, the father's acceptance of son's version, the beis din accepting the son's version and required Kolko to go to treatement, the social worker hired by the beis din thought he was guilty. Rav Sternbuch after hearing the facts including that Kolko stopped going to the required treatment said the police should be called - which means that he viewed Kolko as a danger to the community and that to protect the community he was willing to let the police handle it which includes obviously a possible prison sentence. Kolko not only confessed but apologized for abuse. Finally there were others who came forward and accused Kolko of abuse.<br /><br />Now what don't you understand? Why don't you realize that the fact that you and others refuse to accept clear evidence - is the cause of people not going to the police and the children of our community are in danger.<br /><br />Halacha l'maaseh you are allowed to kill even a sofek rodef that you feel is a threat to your life. See the discussion by Rav Yehuda Silman in the 15th volume of Yeshurun.Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-18733789591929060132013-06-12T07:46:36.769+03:002013-06-12T07:46:36.769+03:00I still have not heard any word of serious evidenc...I still have not heard any word of serious evidence that Kolko was a molester. Pleading guilty in an american court is 100% meaningless because of the inherent injustice in american courts. ('Take the plea bargain or we'll destroy you forever.') That is not justice and NOTHING AT ALL therefore has been advanced to say he was a molester. The father is convinced Kolko is a molester? Maybe he is right, maybe not. All this seems like just a bunch of hearsay. All the other points about Lakewood leadership etc are really beside the point. And yes its insane that people would not report a molestor for fear of cherem. But regarding the case of Kolko, where is the beef? mikenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-42697561007002242652013-06-12T02:04:54.343+03:002013-06-12T02:04:54.343+03:00I agree with you. Fact's comments were deleted...I agree with you. Fact's comments were deleted because he was making assertions he had no evidence for except for what he read on a blog. He made no attempt to verify them. He was acting like a troll disrupting things and demanding that his agenda be followed<br /><br />I am not interested in an idiot - no matter how important his cause just walking in and shooting off his mouth because it makes him feel righteous.<br /><br />I am writing about serious issues and I am interested in results not cartharsis. <br />Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-14690550888744346162013-06-12T00:51:15.351+03:002013-06-12T00:51:15.351+03:00@DaasTorah -
Regrettably the comments made by “Fa...@DaasTorah -<br /><br />Regrettably the comments made by “Facts” alleging R. Belsky’s corruption seem to have been deleted.<br /><br />I am NOT a troll, and I am not the person posting with the name "Facts". <br /><br />Based on numerous discussions I've had with knowledgeable rabbanim and Jewish men who were involved in divorce processes, I believe that the comments made by Facts earlier (and then apparently deleted) in regard to R. Belsky are correct. These knowledgeable rabbanim believe that R. Belsky and certain other rabbis are providing Jewish women in divorce conflicts full heter archaos sh’lo k’din, so that these women commit vicious mesirah against their husbands. Rabbanim I spoke to also believe that R. Belsky is involved in certain Get Meoso incidents.<br /><br />I also believe that Fact's deleted comments in regard to an individual allegedly abducted in a forced Get incident are true. That incident is well known by rabbanim and askanim involved in Gittin matters. <br /><br />I would hope the present reasonable comments will be allowed on this blog. If not, then the olam can draw its conclusions as to whether this is in fact a DaasTorah blog.EmesLeYaacovnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-61320697144808873052013-06-11T23:17:12.008+03:002013-06-11T23:17:12.008+03:00What does my book sales have to do with Rav Belsky...What does my book sales have to do with Rav Belsky?! There is no correlation between activity on this blog and sales of my books. People buy them because they need them not because they are voicing approval or disapproval of my views.<br /><br />Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-86333015127166576202013-06-11T21:54:53.177+03:002013-06-11T21:54:53.177+03:00you can do with your site as you wish. just get th...you can do with your site as you wish. just get the guts to call a spade a spade and stop worrying about your book sales.factsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-72930855251728007822013-06-11T15:51:07.659+03:002013-06-11T15:51:07.659+03:00Scott,
That's a great article by Rav Lichtens...Scott,<br /><br />That's a great article by Rav Lichtenstein.<br /><br />Confused:<br /><br />You think you have it bad? How do you think I felt when I found out that the Conservative Judaism that I was raised on is sheker? At least you were raised to be an Orthodox Jew, which is emes, even though not everything is perfect, as you were led to believe.betzalelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-84477068409383980362013-06-11T14:51:05.270+03:002013-06-11T14:51:05.270+03:00Then you are saying you live in Sodom a place wher...Then you are saying you live in Sodom a place where forcible arayos cannot be stopped and the chiyuv of lo saamod is violated just as Reform Jews eat shrimp and ham. I understand the importance of friends and community. But if this is the norm how can Lakewood claim to be an Ir Kodesh, Jerusalem in Jersey?Yerachmiel Lopinhttp://frumfollies.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-82093572595298916732013-06-11T11:10:54.156+03:002013-06-11T11:10:54.156+03:00Confused:
Respect and honor, don't venerate. ...Confused:<br />Respect and honor, don't venerate. Deification of human beings is not a Jewish idea. I assume you didn't mean that, but I believe that venerating individuals is part of the problem.<br /><br />I strongly recommend reading Rav Aharon Lichtenstein's discussion of Daat Torah, available at this link:<br />http://www.zootorah.com/RationalistJudaism/DaatTorahLichtenstein.pdf<br /><br />In this transcript he deals with the specific issues you mention.Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02425451150293411043noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-3164387893046573282013-06-11T10:20:08.355+03:002013-06-11T10:20:08.355+03:00no one would report it because "being chareid...no one would report it because "being chareidi (and not simply shomer mitzvot), getting into the right school, the right yeshiva, being a member of the right shul, etc" is more important than what exactly? your kid is still going to need help, you can't hide that. if your attitude is "don't say a word, hide what happened", you're putting him in a pretty awful position.Ben Waxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02798895161663664689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-31412914240990584942013-06-11T10:05:35.950+03:002013-06-11T10:05:35.950+03:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.fordaashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10043329908485827102noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-44586183780561861652013-06-11T07:14:16.637+03:002013-06-11T07:14:16.637+03:00Concerned wrote that he took an "informal pol...Concerned wrote that he took an "informal poll" and "EVERYONE IN THE BEIS MEDRASH SAID "IF FACED WITH THE SAME CIRCUMSTANCE [his child was molested] THEY WOULDN'T DISCUSS IT WITH A SOUL"!!!" <br /><br />That is appalling, but in that report there may be a ray of hope: before this and other recent scandals, would anyone in "Concerned's" position have thought to "take an informal poll," to ask such a question at all? At least the unthinkable has become thinkable, the unspeakable has been spoken, the first step toward dealing with the problem. Kevin in Chicagohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04134839107044549138noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-14693945677980734002013-06-11T03:05:13.265+03:002013-06-11T03:05:13.265+03:00You say that "there clearly are people who ar...You say that "there clearly are people who are foolish and plain wrong," yet your initial post clearly defies logic.<br />You write that "After Yosef Kolko publicly confessed to raping a child, there has been studied silence from his supporters." This statement seems to imply that now that he has pleaded guilty, you are irritated by the fact that these Rabbonim are silent. Prior to the guilty plea, however, it seems you understand why the Rabbonim kept quiet, presumably because Rabbi Belsky performed his own investigation (regardless of whether you agree with the outcome of his investigation or not).<br />If so, why would you be surprised that these Rabbonim are not backing down from their initial stance after the guilty plea? Are you naïve enough to believe that a guilty plea is to be taken THAT literally? Do you know whether or not some of these Rabbonim possibly encouraged Kolko to plead guilty (even while they believe that he is innocent) to lessen his sentence?<br />I have no idea what Kolko did or did not do, but I do know that Rabbi Belsky is a tremendous Talmid Chochom, and the fact that he and others are remaining silent now proves absolutely nothing, contrary to what your post claims.Urinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-10146514847129885982013-06-11T01:33:03.333+03:002013-06-11T01:33:03.333+03:00@Confused... I am not suggesting that we take anyo...@Confused... I am not suggesting that we take anyone at their word. What I am suggesting is that I would assume that someone who is held in high esteem (or what is called a Gadol)is right. I start from that premise and give them the benefit of the doubt that there is more to the story then what meets the eye. If I still can't reconcile their position with what I know, then I can say that they made a mistake. The fact that "I" think they made a mistake, doesn't mean they actually did, it only means that this is my way to reconcile the contradiction. I by all means believe that Hashkafa of all things need to be questioned, reasoned and understood... but, I would think many times before I would say that they made a mistake... and ALWAYS, be careful with Kavod HaTorah!<br /><br />"But if the elite can make as many mistakes as they want what makes them elite anymore? "<br /><br />Nobody is assuming that "Gedolim". make as many mistakes as they want". It would be far a few between when we believe they have erred. That's what differentiates us and them and why I would always "assume" they are correct. Torah Truthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03106220935439713748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-46981504480651066252013-06-11T01:00:51.092+03:002013-06-11T01:00:51.092+03:00NA NA NA I HAVE TO CRY FOUL....
Many of us are aw...NA NA NA I HAVE TO CRY FOUL....<br /><br />Many of us are aware of the FULL timeline and do not know of anything R' S. (As he is being referred to here) did wrong.<br /><br />If you have something to present that can be reviewed for accuracy and logic by others we are ready to hear.<br /><br />But to try defend them with an innuendo that can't be verified?!? I'm sorry, that's dishonest. <br /><br />Such claims are particularity hard to believe in this case. It was open house on the family with so much motzi Shem rah said that was simply not true. You want us to blindly believe there was something else....<br />concernedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00725433166043905160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-20598144595289015002013-06-11T00:35:41.280+03:002013-06-11T00:35:41.280+03:00Seriously? You don't have any rabanim that kno...Seriously? You don't have any rabanim that know you personally that wouldn't back you?<br /><br />side point: In such a scenario there probably is a chiyuv of "Lo Samod"Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07469996241638996455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-59699743211945586212013-06-11T00:02:23.453+03:002013-06-11T00:02:23.453+03:00@TT thank you for your response. Is there not a co...@TT thank you for your response. Is there not a concept, at the very least of maaras ayin? I think that once upon a time it was enough to say, "you don't know the whole story" but for better or worse today we, the hamon am, would like some proof. If Gadol XYZ says he has a good s'varah to shlug up a tosfos we don't simply say, "take him at his word" we demand proof so that we can assay the logic to get to the emes. Do we dare demand less when it comes to hashkafa?<br /><br />I understand they are human, but I guess what I'm struggling with is at what point do I stop venerating someone. There are plenty of people greater than me in torah and yirash shomayim, but they are not all considered the gedolei or manhigei hador. That is something that I thought was supposed to be reserved for the elite. But if the elite can make as many mistakes as they want what makes them elite anymore? <br /><br />Its actually good that you reminded me to daven mincha, I intentionally skipped my regular minyan because I was distraught over this and I am taking it as a siman min shomayim that you chose those words so I will go daven now.<br /><br />I would be curious to hear DT's response as well.Confusedhttp://www.google.comnoreply@blogger.com