tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post7024469672635387845..comments2024-03-29T12:21:24.976+03:00Comments on Daas Torah - Issues of Jewish Identity: Rabbi Barry Freundel - prominent Modern Orthodox leader - arrested on voyeurism chargeDaas Torahhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comBlogger108125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-79883133816810595612014-11-03T07:38:52.701+02:002014-11-03T07:38:52.701+02:00I posed 4 specific questions in my long post begin...I posed 4 specific questions in my long post beginning with the words, "I think that what is bothering puzzledparent and myself..." to which I have not seen your replies. Thank you.Alexandernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-1274937848499854742014-10-29T02:09:23.360+02:002014-10-29T02:09:23.360+02:00I'm also excited about this Sefer.I'm also excited about this Sefer.Chaimnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-56397277636411289592014-10-29T00:58:22.833+02:002014-10-29T00:58:22.833+02:00thanks - corrected moved it to the correct threadthanks - corrected moved it to the correct threadDaas Torahhttp://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-66249461959454156482014-10-29T00:44:03.080+02:002014-10-29T00:44:03.080+02:00I am looking forward to this book (sorry, sefer), ...I am looking forward to this book (sorry, sefer), as it is a very important part of halacha, and does not appear in the regular sefarim we see in Kosher bookstores.Eddienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-27609013279941064432014-10-29T00:37:01.151+02:002014-10-29T00:37:01.151+02:00Rav Eidensohn
I think you posted this in the wro...Rav Eidensohn<br /><br /><br />I think you posted this in the wrong thread.Rabbi Michael Tzadoknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-52831860019567944732014-10-28T20:27:52.875+02:002014-10-28T20:27:52.875+02:00@Honesty wrote
Because RaP commentary is continuo...@Honesty wrote<br /><br />Because RaP commentary is continuously raising imagined territorial kiruv wars here and creating false red herrings. TSP has been inclusive of all Torah-true Jews. The idea is that each community run their own programs. Has anyone - other than RaP commentary! - raised a complaint about TSP? So, why are you searching and searching to see if their may be some sort of territorial war???? And the most you found was that two distinct programs - which have SOME similarities - do NOT mention each other. Is that it?<br /><br />good summary. Not conclusion which doesn't violate the rules of logic is true.Daas Torahhttp://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-64221604266527950442014-10-28T20:24:05.211+02:002014-10-28T20:24:05.211+02:00@Dr. Klafter you raise an important point. Unfortu...@Dr. Klafter you raise an important point. Unfortunately the assumption that one can not do anything of signifcance without first consulting with a rabbi - is one that is encouraged explicitly and implicitly.<br />Child abuse is just one such instance.<br /><br />I am currently working on a sefer which integrates the issues of lashon harah, rodef, paskening for your self - BK 28 and the nature of beis din to try and describe the parameters of independent judgmentDaas Torahhttp://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-4371751392071336862014-10-28T19:02:10.343+02:002014-10-28T19:02:10.343+02:00Let me ask you this. If a Rabbi MURDERED the pres...Let me ask you this. If a Rabbi MURDERED the president of the synagogue, and it were witnessed by members of the congregation and he were arrested by the police and charged with murder... would you still think he's entitled to his severance pay? Do you think they need to ask a shayla about this before the stop transferring funds or sending checks for his salary? Does the synagogue board need to go to a Beis Din before they stop paying him?<br /><br />Again, when there is serious wrong-doing which constitutes a contract violation, and when the contract specifies procedures for termination, the synagogue does NOT have to pay severance. It would be eminently sensible for the synagogue to terminate him with no pay and to deny him any severance. They are entitled to do that unilaterally without seeking a psak or a Din Torah. If he believes he has been terminated unlawfully, then the burden of proof is upon him to prove this, and he should bring them to a Din Torah to argue his case. I am sure they would prevail, but whatever.<br /><br />Again, if I am employing a housekeeper and I catch her, red-handed, stealing my wife's jewelry, I will fire her on the spot. I do not owe her severance. <br /><br />If, however, I want to force her to pay damages for what she has stolen or to return stolen items that I allege are in her possession, I have no recourse other than a Din Torah. (Actually if I see the stolen items in her purse, I will just take them back myself because "tefisa" is a legal mechanism to recover stolen property in this case and will probably stand up in the Beis Din depending on whether there were witnesses to the tefisa.)<br /><br />Rabbi BF cannot force the shul board to keep paying him. The money that you think they owe him is in THEIR possession and not his. <br /><br />I don't understand how so many people have developed the perception that we can't do anything without asking a psak or bringing someone to a Din Torah. This is, seriously, a very unhealthy and distorted view of Judaism and of life. If you come up to me and demand that I owe you 100.00, for whatever reason you claim, and I think you are wrong, then I am not going to pay you. Nor am I going to ask a shayla. Nor am I going to a Beis Din. You, however, can summon me to a Beis Din and present your arguments, and I will respond to your arguments. The Beis Din will instruct me as to whether I am obligated to pay.Andrew Nachum Klafternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-48832639230618253472014-10-27T23:19:42.508+02:002014-10-27T23:19:42.508+02:00several cases that I know about they got severance...several cases that I know about they got severance. (ok, those were outright molestation, not voyeurism, maybe not all underage, but teacher or teacher type relationship.)<br /><br /> esp with "pshara" requirement (is it really halachically required? batei din claim its required, but is it really true? prob not.) even DT's reference following of hakira article cites this.MiMedinat_HaYamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-6620500388323047922014-10-27T04:50:12.669+02:002014-10-27T04:50:12.669+02:00Very little remains online about the Pardess case ...Very little remains online about the Pardess case - looks like what used to be there, giving more detail, has now gone. Could this have something to do with the case of the Schlesinger twins in Vienna (Austria)? There's another Rabbi Pardess there who I think might be the son of Rabbi P who was convicted in Tel Aviv. All I could find, apart from the conviction, was:<br /><br />RABBI CHARGED WITH INDECENT BEHAVIOR <br />October 24, 1990<br />The Jerusalem Post <br /><br />TEL AVIV - Attorney-General Yosef Harish has submitted a charge sheet against Rabbi Haim Pardess, who was president of the Tel Aviv District Rabbinical Court, for two obscene acts and three cases of fraud. <br /><br />The charge sheet, submitted to the Tel Aviv District Court, claims, among other things, that Pardess spoke on personal and intimate matters to a woman who had come to him for advice after her husband had disappeared and she was declared an aguna, an abandoned wife. At one of their meetings, the rabbi committed indecent acts on the woman, the charge sheet says.James Cliffordnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-3224526199295841632014-10-26T18:34:34.623+02:002014-10-26T18:34:34.623+02:00Isn't there a Rabbi Pardes in Vienna? Isn'...Isn't there a Rabbi Pardes in Vienna? Isn't he the son of the pedophile Rabbi Chaim Pardes?<br /><br />Whilst one wouldn't want to condemn the son because of his father, couldn't Rabbi Pardes in Vienna be doing something positive to help the Schlesinger twins in Vienna to have more contact with there mother?<br /><br />Pardes Vienna probably went there to escape the bad publicity and reputation!<br />Doesn't he realise he jumped out of the fat into the fire? Questions are being asked why, he, as a very good friend and mentor of Schlesinger, hasn't tried to direct him to do the right thing by his children, making sure that they see their mother more, especially as there is no good reason for this not to happen! The mind boggles. <br />The son of a paedophile being soo close to a man and his two sons, who can't speak! <br /><br />Rabbis are being condemned around the world for wrong doings and cover ups! The truths are all coming out now and the name Pardes is infamous! Now is the time for Pardes Vienna to take some positive action, or perhaps he should change his name!Chaimnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-80810487117794593142014-10-26T07:44:58.270+02:002014-10-26T07:44:58.270+02:00Sorry, but if you are caught planting an IP camera...Sorry, but if you are caught planting an IP camera in the women's shower you will NOT be receiving severance. Come on. Let's get serious.Andrew Nachum Klafternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-68489714252158361032014-10-25T23:55:29.272+03:002014-10-25T23:55:29.272+03:00It is worth noting that Rabbinic sexual abuse is n...It is worth noting that Rabbinic sexual abuse is not a new problem. Haim Pardes was a dayan in Tel Aviv in the 1980s and admitted in court to sexually abusing women who relied on him for conversions and gittin:<br /><br />http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/jpost/access/98469988.html?FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&date=Jan+1%2C+1991&author=MICHAEL+ROTEM%2C+Jerusalem+Post+Reporter&pub=Jerusalem+Post&edition=&startpage=02&desc=RABBI+STARTS+6+MONTHS+IN+JAIL+FOR+SEX+ABUSE (google for more info)<br /><br />"Coincidentally", Haim Pardes has a son called Rabbi Josef Pardes who now operates as the head of Mizrachi in Vienna!<br /><br />How many more people need to be abused and how many more Rabbinic scandals need to come out before we accept there is a major problem and that major changes should be put in place. For example, the ability to remove semicha, or have a worldwide Rabbinic offenders list similar to the sex offenders register.Hagalach Hamoelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-53937309971951430042014-10-25T19:56:42.913+03:002014-10-25T19:56:42.913+03:00see the artilce in Hakira
http://www.google.com/...see the artilce in Hakira<br /><br /><br />http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=9&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CE4QFjAI&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jlaw.com%2FArticles%2FSeverance.pdf&ei=UNFLVP_hGM7Q7AbzyYGQCg&usg=AFQjCNGcC1WNUur1jOjv2lUSwH2SHDujFw&sig2=Yf-qUuLErW_sT_6ysSlZiA&bvm=bv.77880786,d.ZGUDaas Torahhttp://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-48734018020294222452014-10-25T19:55:00.932+03:002014-10-25T19:55:00.932+03:00yes that is the view of Rav Elchonon Wasserman and...yes that is the view of Rav Elchonon Wasserman and othersDaas Torahhttp://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-65563922620514575992014-10-24T22:26:03.249+03:002014-10-24T22:26:03.249+03:00yes, the signed contract stands. if it has an arb...yes, the signed contract stands. if it has an arbirtation clause, that governs., if it doesnt, he can always bring it to a bet din of his choosing, who will tend (i say tend, not definitive) to confirm his monetary (and / or position) "rights".<br /><br />if he chooses the RCA / BDA or the washington / baltimore (i believe washington tends to assign its din torah cases to baltimore bet din) vvad, the synagogue has little choice but to accept that particular bet din. they might tend to favor a (former) member who is extremely palsy walsy with the rabbi members, at least as far salary rights are concerned. (probably not the position itself).<br /><br />only practical solution -- buy out the remaining years of the rabbi's contract. since he probably can never get another shteller ( = position) now, and since bulk of the money will probably go to his wife in a settlement of their potential matter) this might be the most practical solution. (after paying his lawyers off.)<br /><br /><br /><br />over the past decade, rabbis who left synagogues that have money usually continue paying the rabbi the remaining years of his contract. several such cases. only difference here is the nature of his leaving. (i presume this synagogue has money. dont really know if they do.)<br /><br /><br />dont forget -- the feds are not interested in cases of this type. they want the defendant to rat out on others, which he may may not have info on. another reason to pay him off to keep quiet. wait to see if the case is continuously postponed, or if its finished up before the end of the calendar year. i hope this para is adequately buried in thius post.MiMedinat_HaYamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-86644412036494610382014-10-24T18:18:23.373+03:002014-10-24T18:18:23.373+03:00Isn't the simple answer that where the stateme...Isn't the simple answer that where the statement is le toeles there is no lashon hara? If my wife (or neighbor) tells me the cleaning lady (or a worker) is stealing from me, that is clearly le toeles. Firing him or her is simply protecting myself.<br /><br />As opposed to, say, idol gossip that Ploni down the street commits aveiros, and in context, his sins have no effect on me. (Use your imagination, but one can imagination many situations where Ploni down the street is doing something wrong, but that does not affect me.)The_Original_Bored_Lawyernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-44704829340733621852014-10-24T04:57:49.997+03:002014-10-24T04:57:49.997+03:00Cognitive dissonance.Cognitive dissonance.Groise Anavnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-2818302373462569912014-10-23T22:08:09.598+03:002014-10-23T22:08:09.598+03:00exactly right and it is a significant problem. You...exactly right and it is a significant problem. You might want to read Dr. Benny Brown's article on the sefer Chofetz Chaim.he points other important issues.<br /><br />http://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/2011/04/halachasizing-of-lashon-harah-mussar.htmlDaas Torahhttp://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-5966715093455422952014-10-23T21:26:12.748+03:002014-10-23T21:26:12.748+03:00OK. Agree . To read the chafetz chayim like that w...OK. Agree . To read the chafetz chayim like that would mean that I can't ever use my common sense to make decisions in my day to day life without a Din Torah.Andrew Nachum Klafternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-21751723671015514532014-10-23T19:38:31.490+03:002014-10-23T19:38:31.490+03:00Dr. Klafter wrote:
Rabbi Eidensohn: I think that ...Dr. Klafter wrote:<br /><br />Rabbi Eidensohn: I think that the distinction between "doubt" and "concern" is idiosyncratic to translations I here your point but it's really not relevant to this case. People are allowed to fire their employees when they have good basis to believe that they are being harmed, stolen from, etc. In halakha you don't have the right to a job. How the Chafetz Chayim would want the board members or community members to think about/feel about Rabbi Freundel after they have heard all of this shmutz about him is an interesting and important spiritual question, but it has nothing to do with the fact that the board of the synagogue will absolutely fire him once they are confident that he committed these serious misdeeds. It is not just loshon hora they are hearing. A member of their leadership directly witnessed it. He is, himself, a principal party to this employment arrangement. It his not like somoene is calling them on the phone and saying, without substantiation, that they have heard that he's up to no good. This is real, direct knowledge of what he has done. I think it's confusing and inaccurate to frame this has a shayla in hilchos loshon hora.<br /><br />I was simply responding to your accusation that I misread the Chofetz Chaim. While basically I agree with your approach - it clearly is not that which is being taught. The use of the Chofetz Chaim's chumros is being used in Rav Bulman's word's "They are trying to keep our mouths shut." Thus it is very relevant to our discussion.<br /><br />A world in which you can't open your mouth on any meaningful issue if you didn't first get a psak - not just from a rav- but from a godol - is a world which people have been taught to relinquish basic responsiblities to others- on all important issues.Daas Torahhttp://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-78401099249016939422014-10-23T18:46:27.210+03:002014-10-23T18:46:27.210+03:00The rca will never allow the case to co me befor...The rca will never allow the case to co me before any bet din. They consider their internal(rabbi) committee a bet din. Even if the committee will not share its information with him.<br />MiMedinat_HaYamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-40392141842237580932014-10-23T18:43:52.369+03:002014-10-23T18:43:52.369+03:00He can hire a black lawyer or include one on his l...He can hire a black lawyer or include one on his legal team.kishkeyumnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-77993796273489498132014-10-23T17:46:43.601+03:002014-10-23T17:46:43.601+03:00MeMedinat_HaYam: You are incorrect. Maybe you ca...MeMedinat_HaYam: You are incorrect. Maybe you can find an unusual de'ah out there that supports what you are saying but the normative halakha is definitely that a signed contract supersedes any other assumptions or rules for termination. If the written contract states that one can be terminated for cause under a set of conditions and the Rabbi accepts this, then it is absolutely permitted for the leadership of the synagogue to terminate the rabbi under those conditions. Finally the point is that in this case the Synagogue is the muchzak. They are holding the money. The rabbi will need to take them to a Beis Din and explain his argument as to why they are obligated to keep paying. The idea that they can't fire him for installing a camera is a nonsense. They absolutely do not need to buy out his contract.<br /><br /><br />Puzzled parent: Numerous newspaper articles explain that a Board Member of the directly saw him install the camera in a clock. That Board Member called the police, who discovered an IP camera, and traced the IP to Rabbi Freundel's home. They then found current images on his computer of six different women showering in the mikvah, and evidence of many other images which had been deleted in the past. But I am not simply saying that there was direct knowledge. I'm also saying that the Shul is not required to go to Beis Din to fire him. He is required to go to a Beis Din to argue that he has the right to keep his job. (And he will not prevail.)<br /><br /><br />Rabbi Eidensohn: I think that the distinction between "doubt" and "concern" is idiosyncratic to translations I here your point but it's really not relevant to this case. People are allowed to fire their employees when they have good basis to believe that they are being harmed, stolen from, etc. In halakha you don't have the right to a job. How the Chafetz Chayim would want the board members or community members to think about/feel about Rabbi Freundel after they have heard all of this shmutz about him is an interesting and important spiritual question, but it has nothing to do with the fact that the board of the synagogue will absolutely fire him once they are confident that he committed these serious misdeeds. It is not just loshon hora they are hearing. A member of their leadership directly witnessed it. He is, himself, a principal party to this employment arrangement. It his not like somoene is calling them on the phone and saying, without substantiation, that they have heard that he's up to no good. This is real, direct knowledge of what he has done. I think it's confusing and inaccurate to frame this has a shayla in hilchos loshon hora.Andrew Nachum Klafternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-37971404171879377252014-10-23T16:55:51.364+03:002014-10-23T16:55:51.364+03:00Your questions were answered what didn't you u...Your questions were answered what didn't you understamd?Daas Torahhttp://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/noreply@blogger.com