tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post6923543371945573244..comments2024-03-29T09:34:59.827+03:00Comments on Daas Torah - Issues of Jewish Identity: Rav Hershel Schacter's views on reporting child abuseDaas Torahhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comBlogger74125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-59258369903296841622013-03-24T06:14:46.556+02:002013-03-24T06:14:46.556+02:00Eddie I have no idea who "Gestetner" is ...Eddie I have no idea who "Gestetner" is so if you know someone called "Gestetner" you can give him a call. I am not your messanger boy.<br /><br />"Not that his view has any validity, after all, R Tauber shlita, Rosh Kollel and Av bet Din of Monsey tells us to ignore that Mickey-Mouse beth din."<br /><br />Clearly you are clueless Eddie. Who appointed R tauber Ab Beis Din of Monsey? There are many Botei Din there! And you never took his advice either because you said if you were a man involved in a divorce you would go there yourself.<br /><br />Eddie the problem with the logic is with you. You made a claim that the organization that R Angel supports was fighting a case for a woman who was married under a conservative rabbi. I showed that you were totally wrong, it was not. it was talking about a young girl on a fling and a humble person after being exposed would apologize but not you.<br /><br />As far as lifnei iver, even the Rabbanut disagrees with you. You are entitled to your opinion but it is not part of the Torah world. The problem is if you let anyone into the mikveh you are encouraging premarital sex and that is lifnei iver. <br /><br />stannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-67601057740296658812013-03-23T21:55:01.285+02:002013-03-23T21:55:01.285+02:00Stan, you are obfuscating. Can you tell us Gestet...Stan, you are obfuscating. Can you tell us Gestetner's position on child abuse,a nd reporting it? I have asked u 2x and u refuse to answer. Not that his view has any validity, after all, R Tauber shlita, Rosh Kollel and Av bet Din of Monsey tells us to ignore that Mickey-Mouse beth din.<br /><br />Regarding the discussion on the feminist group, it says :<br />" solely for the purpose of conjugal relations and brides being married by orthodox rabbis "<br /><br />Your logic is not very good. If you claim that Mikveh is d'oraita, but the kiddushin is d'rabbanan, then you are preventing people from keeping Mitzvos D'oraita. In Israel the sea is available, so a determined person can immerse pretty much year round. <br /><br />Your argument is like having a kosher food store, but refusing to sell to people who might not be frum in other areas.<br /> <br />Do you think rav Shach would have prevented secular people from buying kosher meat?Ben MIkrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07122937371918515052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-89281828679621016102013-03-22T17:31:43.967+02:002013-03-22T17:31:43.967+02:00"Stan, stop diverting attention, who is sayin..."Stan, stop diverting attention, who is saying that a woman can marry someone after adultery? I never said that."<br /><br />Eddie if she is not punished in accordance with halocho hamevin yoovin she can marry anyone except a cohen, her ex husband and her lover midoraissah.<br /><br />but Rabbi marc Angel's darling rgsanization doesn't hjold of d'oraisahs Eddie"<br /><br />http://www.cwj.org.il/cwj-blog/supremecourtpetitiondoestherabbiniccourthavejurisdictionoverquestionsofsexualintimacywhenacoupleagreestoadivorcestannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-4688133595660024272013-03-22T17:28:52.556+02:002013-03-22T17:28:52.556+02:00"If someone wants to be oiver, they can find ..."If someone wants to be oiver, they can find ways, . Most dont bother with mikveh.<br />Besides, this specific case was about a woman who was being married in a Conservative ceremony. So she shoudl be disallowed from Mikveh?"<br /><br />Really Eddie it was not. It was about single women using the mikveh as well, if not predominantl. Good job misleading the readers of this blog Eddie - deliberately as well. One of the 2 cases involved a 19 year old who has been having sex since 16. <br /><br />http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/anglo-file/daughter-of-u-s-immigrants-wages-legal-battle-against-mikveh-ban-1.407052<br /><br />"One petitioner is a young woman who was refused entry to a mikvah when the attendants discerned that she was single. The other is an unmarried recent immigrant who was prevented from using the mikvah on erev Yom Kippur. "<br /><br />http://www.cwj.org.il/cwj-blog/directivefromisraelisupremecourttostate-fundedrabbinateexplainwhywomencan%E2%80%99tusethemikvahwithoutbeingquestionedastopurpose<br /><br />Eddie you owe the readers of this blog and myself an aplogy. stannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-15716046642965257592013-03-19T22:40:34.008+02:002013-03-19T22:40:34.008+02:00I don't believe the issue here is what Rav Sch...I don't believe the issue here is what Rav Schechter actually practically believes should be implemented. I believe the issue is a) specifying the dangers of being imprisoned with a black person as opposed to just being imprisoned in general, and b) that as a huge authority figure, Rav Schechter must realize that most of society will just read the tabloid of 'Rav Schechter warns against claims against alleged child abusers so as to protect them from "shvartzas"' and never actually get to his point. If Rav Schechter is going to make a statement like this, he must ensure that there is nothing that it is as clear as concise as possible, with no additional things that can detract from his actual pointobservernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-75199405453545477852013-03-19T01:17:40.596+02:002013-03-19T01:17:40.596+02:00from another blog
http://theantitzemach.blogspot....from another blog<br /><br />http://theantitzemach.blogspot.co.uk/2013/03/defending-harav-r-herschel-schachter.html<br /><br />Ben MIkrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07122937371918515052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-90456512497516721752013-03-19T00:50:57.198+02:002013-03-19T00:50:57.198+02:00Stan, stop diverting attention, who is saying that...Stan, stop diverting attention, who is saying that a woman can marry someone after adultery? I never said that.<br /><br />What is r Gestetner's position on reporting molesters? can you please advise us?Ben MIkrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07122937371918515052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-65335173433773817182013-03-19T00:47:21.410+02:002013-03-19T00:47:21.410+02:00@ Stan: "And by freely allowing any woman to...@ Stan: "And by freely allowing any woman to go to the mikveh they would be oyver lifnei ivver of encouraging women to have pre-marital sex who are not in relationships."<br /><br />If someone wants to be oiver, they can find ways, . Most dont bother with mikveh.<br />Besides, this specific case was about a woman who was being married in a Conservative ceremony. So she shoudl be disallowed from Mikveh?<br /><br />Ben MIkrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07122937371918515052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-17630571493081994132013-03-19T00:45:13.657+02:002013-03-19T00:45:13.657+02:00ELY- you did not read Stan's comments - he sai...ELY- you did not read Stan's comments - he said that ORA controls the rabbanut in Israel, that it is one mafia system. <br /><br />That statement is ridiculous. Do you have any evidence LeYaakov that ORA controls the rabbanut?Ben MIkrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07122937371918515052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-68736527877731536402013-03-19T00:20:03.692+02:002013-03-19T00:20:03.692+02:00"Now, Mr Obfuscator, you were attacking Rav A..."Now, Mr Obfuscator, you were attacking Rav Angel, becasue he may have supported an organisation, and you made false claims agasint that organisation. they were not giving a heter for certain sexual relations, but were ameliorating the aveiros of people, who were prevented from keeping taharas mishpocho."<br /><br />Please Eddie the gedolim and the rabbanut disagree with you. And by freely allowing any woman to go to the mikveh they would be oyver lifnei ivver of encouraging women to have pre-marital sex who are not in relationships.<br /><br />And what about there claiming that bais din has no right to prevent a woman from marrying her lover after she committed adultery which I believe is a de'oraisah although I haven't learned the sugyas for a long time?<br /><br />stannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-32670652734491285062013-03-18T23:16:26.165+02:002013-03-18T23:16:26.165+02:00@Eddie - "your ORA/mafia comments are laughab...@Eddie - "your ORA/mafia comments are laughable and show how detached from reality you have become":<br /><br />No, Eddie, it's YOU who has become completely detached from the reality of the outrageous evil being committed by the YU feminist organization ORA ( the Organization for the Resolution of Agunot ). You're also quite oblivious to the complicity of ORA's boss, Hershel Schacter, in ORA's atrocious halachic violations. <br /><br />Assisting women who moser their husbands in archaos is standard fare for ORA, but is just the tip of the evil iceberg. Decent, non-criminal, Jewish husbands in the US have been forbidden by court order any communication with their children in any way, on pain of incarceration. Their wives obtained these court orders while being assisted by ORA. In the perverse feminist ideologies of ORA and its fellow travelers, Jewish fathers are strictly optional. <br /><br />My knowledge of ORA's malevolence is derived both from numerous personal conversations with the Jewish husbands victimized by ORA's thugs and ORA's vicious tactics, and also from personal conversations with some of the many rabbinic authorities who denounce in no uncertain terms ORA's anti-Orthodox, anti-Torah, and anti-male feminist agenda.<br /><br />Eddie, where did you derive your knowledge of ORA? From Jewish Press propaganda articles?EmesLeYaacovnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-52045600023326878122013-03-18T17:23:11.889+02:002013-03-18T17:23:11.889+02:00Stan: stop joking about arkoyos
since these are a...Stan: stop joking about arkoyos<br /><br />since these are anonymous identities, there is not recourse to law unless serious threats are made.<br /><br />"As for your claims that you arbitrage across botei din depending on whether you are a male or female doesn't speak very highly about your integrity. The halocho is what it is regardless of which side of the fence you sit on."<br /><br />On the contrary. I am making a hypothetical case. Ican choose the paramters of the case as I choose.<br /><br />For example, if I had a business case against someone in Satmar, I might avoid r Gestetner's BD, since he could be biased.<br /><br />The halacha can vary from each locailty, something that a closed minded such as yourself would fail to understand.<br /><br />The halacha at a Sephardic BD would be differnt from a litvish,and also from a chassidic BD. <br />What if I were married to a Yemenite and she wishes to go to a yemenite BD (Rambam style) who might beat me to give a get? Suddenly I might feel very ashkenazi and go to see Gestetner.<br /><br />So you are saying r Gestetner is pasul as far as I am concerned?<br /><br />Also, please tellme , stan, what is Rav Gestetner's position on reporting child abuse?<br /><br />You are accusinig me of obfuscastion, but if you want answers from the BDA go them directly. As usual you are trying to distract attention by the red herring of BDA etc.<br /><br />I do not support any false accusations made by women, or men. I have seen no evidence that RHS supports fasle accusations. If he does so knowingly then I condemn him, as I would condemn anyone else.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /> <br /><br />Eddie on laptopnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-33421220740552402382013-03-18T15:58:25.533+02:002013-03-18T15:58:25.533+02:00Stan, yes, according to my logic it is shame on th...Stan, yes, according to my logic it is shame on them too.<br /><br />"(which by definition excludes any YU, mizrachi, modern, hesder type rabbi) " By haredi definition, but I am not haredi<br /><br />There is no obfuscation stanley. The same principle applies. Rav Shach criticised secular people for eating chazir, and told them what is wrong with cow or chicken. Thus, if the Rabbsnut or the Stan refused to sell kosher meat to them, it is the same aveirah.<br /><br />Now, Mr Obfuscator, you were attacking Rav Angel, becasue he may have supported an organisation, and you made false claims agasint that organisation. they were not giving a heter for certain sexual relations, but were ameliorating the aveiros of people, who were prevented from keeping taharas mishpocho. <br />Ben MIkrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07122937371918515052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-33653400570498261652013-03-18T15:08:43.517+02:002013-03-18T15:08:43.517+02:00There is no committee/panel solution to the real p...There is no committee/panel solution to the real problem of having far too few rabbonim who truly understand these matters. These include the intricate halachic and secular legal issues and the psychological issues, whether the rabbonim have a secular degree or profession or not. So, if each community (whatever that is defined to be) needs a screening panel, the chances of it being fully competent at its task are not great. Not to mention that rabbonim can be too reticent about reporting accused rabbonim to the authorities, even when the need for that is clear-cut. Anonynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-58497625639275100372013-03-18T14:32:57.103+02:002013-03-18T14:32:57.103+02:00please change to stan. i posted the above. apologi...please change to stan. i posted the above. apologies.stannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-86829534363118726692013-03-18T14:10:00.265+02:002013-03-18T14:10:00.265+02:00"Regardless of the validity of a non orthodox..."Regardless of the validity of a non orthodox kiddushin, if a man and woman live togetehr, the women must still keep taharat hamishpocha. You are trying to add to the sins. Shame on you stanley."<br /><br />Actually Eddie the supreme obfuscator, it was the rabbanut who refused to allow these women to use the mikveh, so le'shitoscho, iut is shame on your holy rabbanut, i am just the messanger.<br /><br />Seriously though, this is a matter for the gedolei hador (which by definition excludes any YU, mizrachi, modern, hesder type rabbi) to decide. It spounds to me like lifnei iver and basically to turn frum women into unpaid prostitutes but the gedolim can decide.stannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-26263241882891085682013-03-18T14:02:32.127+02:002013-03-18T14:02:32.127+02:00"Satmar/Nk means either/or,
Thus, you have ..."Satmar/Nk means either/or, <br /><br />Thus, you have admitted that you are either/or one of them, hence there are no raglayim b'davar."<br /><br />Eddie you need help, seriously. Where and when exactly did I make such an admission? You have lost the plot mate.<br /><br />Trust me Eddie there is no such a thing as just getting a hetter to sue you in arko'oys. I first need to summons you to bais din and you would need to refuse to appear and I can only claim al pi halocho what the halocho entitles me to.<br /><br />As for your claims that you arbitrage across botei din depending on whether you are a male or female doesn't speak very highly about your integrity. The halocho is what it is regardless of which side of the fence you sit on.<br /><br />You may not be the official spokesman of the BDA but you seem to support their nonsence including their innovations or frankly distortions of halocho but when asked to defend them you won't because you can't.<br /><br />As to your sickening story about a Lakewood person being falsely accused and destroyed I don't have reason to doubt your side of the story. Regarding mesirah which is by definition true the halochoh is yordim le'gehenom le'dpore doros ve'ainom olim so if it was false kal ve'chomer. yet you continue to defend RHS and his hypocrisy about mesirah being a terrible aveiroh except when it comes to women making the false allegations and going to arko'oys so I think you are highly confused.eddienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-55848701279382835652013-03-18T01:32:40.443+02:002013-03-18T01:32:40.443+02:00I don't deny that stan - and I am not the BDA&...I don't deny that stan - and I am not the BDA's representative to explain their side of your allegations. <br />Stan, since you have now come out of the Satmar closet, do you accept that there is no halachic basis in being moser a community to the Nazis, rather than to be pikuach nefesh, and send them to America or Israel, even if there is a risk of some losing their emunah?Ben MIkrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07122937371918515052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-20441818797031491742013-03-18T01:22:39.937+02:002013-03-18T01:22:39.937+02:00BTW, there is not yet mandated reporting in UK, wh...BTW, there is not yet mandated reporting in UK, where the rabbinic conference was held:<br /><br />http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2012/dec/03/child-abuse-mandatory-reporting-to-lado<br />Ben MIkrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07122937371918515052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-51632986676004816922013-03-18T01:20:02.493+02:002013-03-18T01:20:02.493+02:00I pretty much agree with your points - the idea of...I pretty much agree with your points - the idea of having a board of rabbi/psychologists is impractical. the issue of mandated reporting in US law makes the RHS position untenable.<br /><br />Ben MIkrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07122937371918515052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-857464910564936652013-03-18T00:52:37.807+02:002013-03-18T00:52:37.807+02:00Eddie that post dealt with the commonality regardi...Eddie that post dealt with the commonality regarding that there is not a problem of mesira in reporting a child abuser to police.<br /><br />However Rav Schachter is suggesting setting up a committee in each community to evaluate whether the police should be called. As far as I know such a thing is illegal. Mandated reporting requires that reasonalble commonsense suspicion - not just certainty requires calling the police. If the rabbis were also psychologist it would be prohibited for them to carry out investigations rather than calling the police and they would probably lose their licenses and have other punishmet. In addition these rabbi/psychologist don't have any legal authority to conduct investigation.<br /><br />This in fact was the program advocated by the Aguda - without requiring that the rabbis also be psychologists. After a year they acknowledged that they had not set up a single beis din and that would not because of fear of mandated reporting laws. Originally they claimed - falsely - that there was no conflict between such a program and mandated reporting.<br /><br />Similarly Lakewood lost its beis din dealing with these issues when someone they gave a psak to leave teaching threatened them with a 10 million dollar lawsuit.<br /><br />On a practical level it simply is not viable. Whoever participates is open to criminal charges as well as civil law suits for protecting or at least allowing molesters to continuing making more victims. No one is going to publicly acknowledge that they are serving as this type of gate keeper.<br /><br />Perhaps a more realistic possiblity is having rabbonim officially working together with the police and social services and providing support to community members who want to file complaints or testify but are afraid of being ostracized by the community. They simply can't be independent gatekeepers.Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-81706143626727107002013-03-18T00:26:08.729+02:002013-03-18T00:26:08.729+02:00this post from 5 years ago also suggests that ther...this post from 5 years ago also suggests that there are similar views to those of R' Shternbuch, esp RHS:<br /><br />http://daattorah.blogspot.co.uk/2008/06/rav-moshe-sternbuch-shlita-guidelines_12.htmlBen MIkrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07122937371918515052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-30691164284137205062013-03-17T23:58:33.096+02:002013-03-17T23:58:33.096+02:00If you listen to the recording rather than the For...If you listen to the recording rather than the Forward's story, you will see in what context he was speaking.<br />First he goes at length to describe halachos of mesira.<br />Then he points out several cases where false allegations of sexual abuse have been made, and innocent people end up destroyed or in prison.<br /><br />Now he simply sets a procedure for verifying the claim before reporting. And the full discussion is not available, hence there may be points which the sensationalists missed. <br /><br />There is no general procedure - it is dependent on the facts of the case.<br /><br />Now, I am not advocating RHS' viewpoint. But it important to be clear about what he said, and not through a 3rd hand source, i.e. failedmessiah->FWD .<br /><br />Just as an illustration, in the UK, the social services are like a gestapo, they take people's children away for any excuse, eg a woman gave birth, and the SS took her newborn away because the woman had mental illness 10 years previously. So the ss are not infallible, and have their own crazy manifesto of how to destroy families. I assume that RHS was talking about this kind of mentality.Ben MIkrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07122937371918515052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-79455539323627905632013-03-17T23:47:52.577+02:002013-03-17T23:47:52.577+02:00Would RHS say the same if the child was his relati...Would RHS say the same if the child was his relative, G-d forbid?Bobnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-8353491252694901042013-03-17T23:17:49.353+02:002013-03-17T23:17:49.353+02:00Eddie I really don't understand what you are s...Eddie I really don't understand what you are saying. Rav Schacter was speaking at a rabbinical conference- setting out the procedure for reporting child abuse. It was not a private confidential meeting he had with someone. <br /><br /><br /> On the other hand Rav Sternbuch was answering a reply in a specific case and simply said the facts as you have presented them indicate that you should go to the police. He was not describing or specifying procedure in general. You can not generalize from it.Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.com