tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post6842857152104610555..comments2024-03-28T21:30:33.665+02:00Comments on Daas Torah - Issues of Jewish Identity: E. J.F. - "Saving" the Jewish people by proselytizngDaas Torahhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comBlogger52125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-75377916785117812842009-06-30T20:54:48.184+03:002009-06-30T20:54:48.184+03:00Daas Torah said...
Mekubal wrote:
Once a...Daas Torah said...<br /><br /> Mekubal wrote:<br /><br /> Once again Roni, you can read things anyway you like, but that is not what this says. This says, "And that there is to take hold of the understanding that it is permitted to teach Torah to a Goy if his mind is to convert." I am convinced that either you do not know Hebrew or that you are intentionally misreading these statements.<br /><br /> Your rejection of R' Efrati's letter of clarification is ridiculous. He is R' Eliashiv's right hand man. Is he lying? Is he woefully misinformed?<br /><br /> At the request of R' Eidensohn I asked R' Eisenstein about R' Efrati's clarification. His statement was that he understood R' Eliashiv's position the same way.<br /> ==================<br /> With the confirmation from both Rav Efrati and Rav Eisenstein that Rav Eliashiv's teshuva 3:140 is not talking about proselytizing or inspiring a nonJew to convert - I think it is time to end this thread.<br /><br /> Roni - any more repetition of your distorted and abusive ad hominem comments will simply be rejected. Whether it is your problematic readings of Rav Eliashiv and other poskim or whether it is your reflex denunciation of R' Bomzer. Enough is enough. However you have served the valuable service of confirming for us the tenuous and problematic nature of R' Tropper's authority to do what he is doing.Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-23139306659060750152009-06-24T23:05:19.476+03:002009-06-24T23:05:19.476+03:00Oops, I left out a thought from the last post - on...Oops, I left out a thought from the last post - on what this has to do with conversion. One, the example listed above. Two, intelligent educated people are not going to choose Orthodoxy if it means their kids are going to be raised as ignorant as Tropper is - I believe he actually BRAGS he only has an 8th grade education. All that does is show me that he's not fit to govern his own household, much less anybody else's. If it wasn't for Tom Kaplan's money Tropper would be a charity case himself. And I'm betting Kaplan didn't earn his money with only an 8th grade education. <br /><br />Why is there so much welfare fraud, insurance fraud, misuse of government grants, etc. in orthodoxy? Because a sadly large percentage of them CAN'T earn a living with the inadequate secular/academic education they have. The dayschools are turning out kids who can barely read and write English - how can they ever get good jobs outside of the community to bring in much needed cash from the outside? And on top of that, even Jewish employers are hiring arabs and mexicans (Israel and the US respectively) - where are they going to find living wages IN the community?<br /><br />The whole thing is insane.Ahavahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12795309173195607578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-41334273395125933152009-06-24T22:56:01.450+03:002009-06-24T22:56:01.450+03:00I know you probably haven't read my blog, but ...I know you probably haven't read my blog, but it's pretty much all about economics, especially as the subject relates to the current crisis and Jewish communities. I have also posted some related analyses on UOJ's blogs. <br /><br />People like Tropper are in the process of destroying the economic viability of the Jewish communities with their insistence that people give up their jobs or never get one in the first place to be full time "learners." No community can survive with vast percentages of the able-bodied men refusing to contribute to the economic well being of the community. <br /><br />The tuition crisis is a small sample of what is coming - people have mortgaged themselves to their eyeballs and taken out more credit card debt than they will EVER be able to pay off to keep their kids in dayschools - but the reason tuitions keep going up and up is that fewer and fewer are actually paying at all due to the "hardship" of women/mother having to be the sole breadwinner (and perhaps mooching off her parents) while the man contributes nothing. <br /><br />It's a simple math problem - not enough income being earned in the communities to support the schools. The results are getting ugly - teachers that haven't been paid in MONTHS, kids having to drop out and go to public school because their parents have no other choice, people losing their homes due to bankruptcy, schools unable to pay their basic bills...need I go on? Read the "Orthonomics" blog sometime and you'll see some awful truths. The system is fast collapsing and there isn't going to be any money falling from the sky to fix it. <br /><br />Charity is another problem - people can't give what they don't have, and with more and more families living hand to mouth there isn't going to be any great increases in charity to feed the kids of these men who should be supporting their own families. If they didn't intend to, they shouldn't have gotten married. <br /><br />And yes, I was married once to one of those "allergic to employment" types. It made me angry then and it still makes me angry now, long after the fact. That doesn't make me wrong, as you noted - like all bloggers I have my own "hot button" topics that really get on my nerves. That's one of them. We are going to have to become WAY more fiscally responsible as a group, and that means NOT encouraging economically suicidal behavior.Ahavahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12795309173195607578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-2435511877282876862009-06-24T12:02:42.982+03:002009-06-24T12:02:42.982+03:00Ahavah Gayle said...
Roni/Tropper says "...Ahavah Gayle said...<br /><br /> Roni/Tropper says "The sellout of Judaism for money..."<br /><br /> That's very funny. Exactly where in Torah is there a commandment to go on welfare in order to be Jewish? That is exactly the point of this whole conversion controversy and is leading to a severe crisis in the entire UO community - the refusal of the majority of Chereidi men to fulfill their obligation to work and provide a living for their family, a total violation of pirkei avot, at the very least.<br />================<br />1). Could you please clarify why you think that the whole conversion controversy is caused by the refusal majority of Chareidi men to ... work..?<br /><br />2) Pirkei Avos is not a halacha sefer but rather moral teachings and advice. Therefore you need to cite halachic sources to buttress your thesis. I am not saying these halachic sources don't exist - but simply that you haven't cited them.<br /><br />3) your letter is very angry - why?<br />4) While I am not sure of the connection of this topic to the conversion crisis - I would make it a separate post if you can add some halachic sourcesDaas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-25920094000706792412009-06-24T11:50:33.790+03:002009-06-24T11:50:33.790+03:00Part II
PA 2:2 ...All Torah study that is not joi...Part II<br /><br />PA 2:2 ...All Torah study that is not joined with work will cease in the end, and leads to sin.<br /><br />Or, as others put it, "Idle hands are the devil's workshop." Not only do most young men aspire to be burdens on society and do nothing productive for the community economy, many if not most young Bait Yaakov educated women have been trained to only consider marriage with such an unemployable disgrace. Grade: FAIL.<br /><br />PA 2:13 ...Got out and discern which is the good path to which a man should cling...Rabbi Shimon says, One who considers the outcome of a deed.<br /><br />Obviously, both their Rabbis and the young bochurim themselves are not thinking clearly about the end result of having entire communities lacking the essential arts, crafts and skills for self-sufficiency, and have not thought through to the outcome of being so dependent upon charity and government largess to prevent their families from starving. No one can guarantee that charities will receive sufficient funds to provide for able-bodied adults, and government benefits invariable come with strings attached. Grade: FAIL.<br /><br />PA 3:21 ...If there is no Torah, there is no worldly occupation. If there is no worldly occupation, there is no Torah...<br /><br />Without a decent secular education and market rate employment, a person is unable to fulfill every requirement of Torah. A decent academic education is required in order to have the economic, historical, geo-political and civic knowledge necessary to govern even Chereidi communities and vote in larger regional, state and national issues. And, of course, in real life, keeping Torah is expensive - one who relies on welfare or charity must skimp on their observance, either in public or in secret. Grade: FAIL.<br /><br />PA 5:25 ...a 20 year old begins pursuit [of a livelihood]...<br /><br />And, of course, in order to begin pursuing a livelihood one must have studied and apprenticed in his chosen profession for some years to make a reasonable living at it, which today's 20 year olds obviously have not done. Grade: FAIL.<br /><br />And, finally and most famously, we have these words known to just about everyone:<br /><br />Rabbi Judah says: Anyone who fails to teach his son a trade teaches him to steal.<br /><br />An able bodied man who has learned no marketable skills or who simply refuses to work for a living or purposefully causes his family to be on welfare steals from all the hardworking people who have taxes confiscated from their income to pay for these useless slugs to survive. They take food and education and goods away from the children of hard-working decent people because they have some delusion that they are too good for honest labour. This is stealing, pure and simple. The working men and women don't want their taxes continually increased to cover the rising costs of luggards who won't work, pure and simple. The money is taken from them by the government on threat of force - it's stolen from them because Chereidi men won't step up to the plate and support their own families.<br /><br />Grade: FAIL.Ahavahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12795309173195607578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-41947717019266583442009-06-24T11:47:22.254+03:002009-06-24T11:47:22.254+03:00Roni/Tropper says "The sellout of Judaism for...Roni/Tropper says "The sellout of Judaism for money..."<br /><br />That's very funny. Exactly where in Torah is there a commandment to go on welfare in order to be Jewish? That is exactly the point of this whole conversion controversy and is leading to a severe crisis in the entire UO community - the refusal of the majority of Chereidi men to fulfill their obligation to work and provide a living for their family, a total violation of pirkei avot, at the very least.<br /><br />YNet Online<br />Haredi employment rates in J'lem spike<br />Tani Goldstein<br />Published: 5.20.09, 12:39 / Israel Money<br /><br />...According to the data, Israeli industries employ 20,000 haredim nationwide, 11,000 of whom are women. Traditional industries, however, remain a fraction of the sector's employment sources, as the majority joins the education system, the precious stones industry and various trades.<br /><br /><br />"The reasons for this change are varied," Itzhak Reif, head of MAI's Jerusalem branch, told Ynet. "I assume the main reason is population growth, which combined with low income rates led to the conclusion that they can't go on sustaining themselves like that.<br /><br /><br />"The change emanated from the (community's) public opinion, but eventually even the rabbis understood that it is both unnecessary and unreasonable to expect everyone to no nothing but study…. Also, budget cuts and the financial crisis have increased the (monetary) crunch.<br /><br /><br />"Overall, this is a very positive change. A person should be responsible for himself."<br /><br />..."The ultra-Orthodox community is also contributing – they have special aid funds which help those undergoing job training… I hope the heads of the haredi community will allow more yeshiva students to seek professional training the join the workforce." [end]<br /><br />He can hope all he wants - the men who quit kollel to actually find gainful market rate employment are shunned and vilified by the muckrackers that be. While having the couple's parents support them has been the preferred method of surviving in the past, today many parents (who are, ironically, actually employed) simply no longer have the resources to support able-bodied adult children.<br /><br />So what are most couples doing? Dumping the kids in herds to be raised by strangers while the wife goes to try and eke out a living for them. Of course, we all know that women have to take maternity leave and have to care for sick children and sick elderly relatives, too - so they only make about 3/4 of what a man can make, for the most part. But the Chereidi don't really care about that. They will justify any neglect of children and elderly relatives in order to keep up the pretense that having men do nothing but study in kollel all day every day is a benefit to the nation and to Jews everywhere.<br /><br />This, however, is not what Pirkei Avot says.<br /><br />PA 1:10 Love work, despise lordliness, and do not become overly familiar with the government.<br /><br />Oops - the Chereidi consider work beneath them, despise honest labour, lord it over other sects of Judaism, and thanks to their welfare and assistance, are very familiar with the government. Grade: FAIL.<br /><br />Continued next post...Ahavahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12795309173195607578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-27001315564215186742009-06-24T08:24:12.928+03:002009-06-24T08:24:12.928+03:00Part Two:
"...
Sherman was responding to a T...Part Two:<br /><br />"...<br />Sherman was responding to a Tel Aviv Rabbinical Court ruling in a divorce case that involved a woman who had converted to Judaism. <br /><br />The Tel Aviv Rabbinical Court refused to accept claims by the husband that his wife's conversion was invalid, because, he claimed, the wife had paid a NIS 10,000 bribe to the court that performed her conversion. <br /><br />The Tel Aviv court ruled instead that it did not have the power to overturn a decision - in this case a conversion - by another court since the underlying assumption is that rabbinical courts know what they are doing. <br /><br />However, Sherman rejected the Tel Aviv court's argument despite the fact that it was based on an accepted halachic principle. He ruled that the Jewish status of the woman and her children must be lifted until the Tel Aviv court could ascertain whether the claims against the validity of her conversion could be refuted. <br /><br />Sherman said in a telephone interview with The Jerusalem Post that there was nothing new in his decision and that he was basing himself on the opinions of this generation's greatest halachic scholars, both living and deceased. <br /><br />Sherman quoted from declarations published in recent decades by leading haredi halachic authorities such as Rabbi Yosef Shalom Elyashiv, considered to be the single most important living halachic decisor for haredi Ashkenazi Jewry. Sherman also quoted deceased authorities such as Rabbi Shlomo Zalman Ohrbach, Rabbi Ya'acov Yisrael Kanyevsky and Rabbi Elazar Menachem Man Shach. <br /><br />In one declaration, signed by Shach, Kanyevsky, Ohrbach and Elyashiv and dating from the summer of 1984, the rabbis warned that "since there has been a rise in the number of converts who have been accepted as Jews and that it has become known that a large percentage of them had no intention of accepting upon themselves the burden of the commandments at the time of conversion... We are warning that there is a prohibition to accept converts without first being sure that they are interested in accepting upon themselves all the commandments." <br /><br />Sherman and the other rabbinical judges in May concluded from this declaration and others that every conversion must be considered suspect, "whether it was performed by the Edah Haredit or some other rabbinic court that is recognized more or recognized less, when a person presents a conversion certificate issued by a rabbinic court and that person's appearance is far from the appearance of an observant Jew or that person comes from a place that has no observant community." <br /><br />Sherman said this was especially true in the case that came before the Tel Aviv Rabbinic Court, which dealt with the Jewishness of the wife and her children."Recipients and Publicitynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-49303416752887876402009-06-24T08:22:58.597+03:002009-06-24T08:22:58.597+03:00Part One: Conversion Wars shock-waves continues to...Part One: <b>Conversion Wars shock-waves continues to boil in Israel</b><br /><br />As reported in The Jerusalem Post: "<a href="http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1245184911342" rel="nofollow">Rabbinate demands haredi control over conversion</a><br /><br />Jun. 23, 2009<br />Matthew Wagner, THE JERUSALEM POST <br /><br />Since conversion to Judaism can have a negative impact on the spiritual purity of the Jewish people, only the greatest halachic authorities of the haredi rabbinical establishment can decide on this, the Chief Rabbinate's High Rabbinical Court ruled recently. <br /><br />"Any decisions by Rabbinical Conversion Courts or rabbinic marriage registrars that are not in accordance with the opinion of the greatest halachic authorities of the generation hurt the purity of Jewish people," wrote Rabbi Avraham Sherman, head of the High Rabbinical Court. <br /><br />"There is a real danger that gentiles will be allowed to enter the Jewish community. Anyone who did not embrace an Orthodox lifestyle at the time of conversion is a gentile and if this person is female all of her children are gentiles as well," Sherman continued. <br /><br />The High Court also ruled that the high proportion of potential converts to Judaism who are not sincere about embracing Orthodoxy was an insurmountable challenge that made it impossible to rely on any rabbinical conversion court - haredi or modern Orthodox - to perform a kosher conversion. <br /><br />Sherman stated explicitly that a conversion has no validity unless the convert proves he or she has embraced an Orthodox lifestyle. Anything less is unacceptable. <br /><br />According to the decision, the Jewishness of converts can in theory be revoked at any time, no matter how long ago the conversion took place and no matter which Rabbinical Conversion Court performed the conversion. <br /><br />Conversions can and must be revoked if, for instance, after the conversion process the convert admits that he or she did not adhere to the Orthodox halachic restrictions governing Shabbat, kashrut or other Jewish laws. <br /><br />To preserve the purity of the Jewish people, every convert must be scrutinized on an individual basis by rabbinic marriage registrars and rabbinic courts before he or she is permitted to marry or divorce, Sherman wrote in a 34-page rabbinical opinion handed down within the framework of an appeal case on May 10. <br /><br />Rabbi David Stav, a senior member of Tzohar Rabbis, an organization of moderate Orthodox Zionist rabbis, called Sherman's comments scandalous. <br /><br />"Sherman is committing the biblical sin of insulting the convert," Stav, who is chief rabbi of Shoham, said on Tuesday. "A group of haredi functionaries are willing to place under suspicion thousands of converts just because they want to wage a political power struggle. <br /><br />"When [former Chief Ashkenazi] Rabbi Shlomo Goren wanted to annul a conversion the haredi community attacked him, claiming it was impossible. Now they have changed their minds according to political interests." <br /><br />Stav was referring to the Langer case in which Goren annulled the conversion of a woman's husband to prevent her children from being considered mamzerim (the result of an illicit sexual act which bars them from marrying a Jew). <br /><br />Stav said haredi activists were using the conversion issue to shore up their rabbinical clout vis-à-vis the Orthodox Zionist establishment. <br /><br />Stav, who serves as the Chief Rabbinate's marriage registrar in his town, said he accepts all converts converted by a legitimate Rabbinical Conversion Court. <br /><br />"I do so whether the conversion was performed by the Chief Rabbinate or by a haredi conversion court, although I must say that converts who come out of haredi conversion courts are usually less serious than those converted by the Chief Rabbinate," he said. <br /><br />A three-man panel of rabbinical judges made up of Sherman, Rabbi Hagai Izerer and Rabbi Zion Algrabli rejected the halachic principle that a rabbinic court decision, once handed down, was irreversible..."Recipients and Publicitynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-59589863247034752112009-06-23T18:26:47.231+03:002009-06-23T18:26:47.231+03:00Two things:
1) They are highly valuable being tha...Two things:<br /><br />1) They are highly valuable being that we are dealing with *HaRav Reuven Feinstein* who is a permament and active member of the Organization, (and also for all those Gedoyley Haposskim and Yisroel who come to the convention and support him and his activities especially those who speak in those conventions and praise the activities of the organization (including in the valuable contribution of the organization in minimizing the fake conversions that exist outside),<br /><br />2) Even regarding R' Tropper I don't see it his posting affecting his creidbility (especially motivations that it is so difficult to judge from outside, like when you get edgy when people judge your motivation).Roninoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-79359210240046780072009-06-23T18:06:42.155+03:002009-06-23T18:06:42.155+03:00Roni, all your defense of R' Tropper might hav...Roni, all your defense of R' Tropper might have some value if R' Tropper's sincerity could be trusted. However, it is obvious from his recent posting on his blog that his word is not reliable nor are his motivations.<br /><br />http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2009/06/ejf-rabbi-tropper-responds-to-criticism.htmlDaas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-73509334727839083322009-06-23T09:14:52.763+03:002009-06-23T09:14:52.763+03:00The Conversion Wars: Rav Sherman continues to stir...<b>The Conversion Wars: Rav Sherman continues to stir the pot surrounding conversion controversies</b>:<br /><br />As reported from a secular perspective in Haaretz:<br /><br /><a href="http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1094888.html" rel="nofollow">Rabbinical Court proves subservience to ultra-Orthodox</a> (Tue., June 23, 2009 Tamuz 1, 5769)Recipients and Publicitynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-1650880469554172892009-06-23T05:25:58.738+03:002009-06-23T05:25:58.738+03:00While i would not look out of my way to spend time...While i would not look out of my way to spend time and energy....Mekubal and Daas Torah, I just bumped in a Teshuvaof (none other than) HaRav MOshe Shternbuch, chelek 2/207 which has a slight connection to some of our discussion as to the paramters of when/if wwe apply that possibility of violating an issur derabbnan to prevent someone else from an issur chamur. Rav Sternbuch there distinguishes between preventing the person when he was "poshea" ie. negligent and between a case where he was an oness (where he would be permitted). He there states "אבל בתינוק שנשבה שקרוב לאונס מותר לעבור איסור קל דמלאכה על ידי נכרי להציל חבירו מאיסור חמור...שהבן יכול לצוות נכרי להציל אביו אם הוא כתינוק שנשבה"<br /><br />He permits there to vilate a certain issur derbanan in order to prevent the person to vilate chilul shabbat deorayta. And he uses the "tinok shenishba" card there to merit it (otherwise the fellow would be aposhea and it would be forbidden!).Roninoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-25264843113355801752009-06-23T05:20:00.732+03:002009-06-23T05:20:00.732+03:00Also like to add: THat Rav REuven was poshut clos...Also like to add: THat Rav REuven was poshut closer (n so many respects especially that he was his SON) to Rav MOshe than Rav furst that he would be a better judge to know what his held on a certain position than Rav Furst.Roninoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-54687358804422929662009-06-23T04:17:41.862+03:002009-06-23T04:17:41.862+03:00Wrt to your postscript: If it is true, then it ma...Wrt to your postscript: If it is true, then it makes R' Tropper the great Tzadik as he rejected lies and the entrance of a goya and the sellout of judaism for money! and certainly brings up a few notches his organization! and certainly goes counter to the allegations that his main interest is "proseltyzation"!<br /><br />On the other hand, it becomes a bigger nossoyon for all those who sold their skin for the soup of lentils that they would be enticed again (and so others) to the nissayon of not succumpbing to the temptation of money to sell out judaism by giving a stamp of approval that goya is jewish!<br /><br />All of the above is if it is accurate and true and the stroy over...but if....then....Roninoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-10115153867307403792009-06-23T04:14:15.763+03:002009-06-23T04:14:15.763+03:00Conitnued: DT writes:"Thus you are right that...Conitnued: DT writes:"Thus you are right that it is the word of Rav Fuerst that Rav Moshe never approved of what R' Tropper is doing versus R' Tropper".<br /><br />Bemchilas kvodcho: It is not Rav Furst versus Rav Troper; it is Rav Feurst versus HARAV REUVEN FEINSTEIN! Rav REuven obviously holds that his father never asserred something R/ Tropper is doing; for obviously he would not go against his father had he known that his father holds the opposite!<br /><br />and AFAIK Rav REuven is older, a Talmid chachom of a higher caliber than, forgive me, with begging of mechila from Rav fuerst, than Rav furst!<br /><br /><br />DT writes:" However as you should noticed - your insistence that the bodily participation of rabbonim indicates that they approve of R' Tropper's program - has been clearly disproved by the words of R' Eisenstein himself. He is quoted as saying:<br />"Tropper claims to have the backing of Gedolim, yet he has never produced a single haskama. In Shiur I asked R' Eisenstein if he or R' Eliyashiv Shlit"a support Tropper and his approach, his answer, "When you see a haskama bearing my name or the name of MaRan, then you can assume support, not before, involvement wiht an individual does not insinuate endorsement" I must say that his tone was rather sharp.":<br /><br />Dear Dt: He is quoted by one individual this way...and he is quoted by newspaper ANOTHER WAY! He is quoted as PRAISING EJF recently! for their very important activities in saving the standards of gerut in our generation! <br /><br />furthermore: it is possible that he personally feels that he would *actively participate* in the methods of R' Tropper, and therfore he would not give *Haskama* but were he to consider EJF as doing something that is ASSUR TO the extent that you perceive it to be he would not only NOT GO THERE; HE WOULD ATTACK IT AS HE ATTACKS PUBLICLY OTHER PROGRAMS OR FAKERS ( AS RHB!).<br /><br />Therefore: it is not correct to say that "Thus we see that Rav Sternbuch's request from the very beginning for haskamos - is validated by Rav Eisenstein and Rav Eliashiv that Tropper claims are his biggest supporters"' because you cannot ignore the fact that he goes to conventions and he PRAISES HIS ACTIVITIES! .<br /><br />At the end: Rav Eisenstein goes to his conventions; Rav HErshel Shechter did not condemn the idea (had he held as Rav furst or you, he would not go to their convention; he would not state "the need for this organization is long over due" (as I heard it in my ears). and his renouncing of the person R' Tropper does not mean that he renounced the idea. He never stated that so in public the way that he stated his endorsement of the idea in public. and likewise we have the active SUPPORT AND PARTNERSHIP OF RAV REVUEN IN THIS ORGANIZATION.<br /><br />Dear DT: Your wishes for a letter notwithstanding, does not mean that a lack of written letter signifies that youu have a rejection of the idea or a machaa or protest thereof! I can venture some reasons in mind that even if they agree with the idea and especially if they support it, they not put into writing the way you would like. They prefer to support it the way they support and at the very least they do not protest against it. <br /><br />In fact, your requests notwithsanding: The more R' Tropper makes his conventions and gather Rabbonim, and Roshey Yeshviot and respected members of REbbe's courtyards and yet there is no protest against his organization by respected individual's the more it shows that he earns the respect of GEdoyley Yisroel and certainly that he does NOT earn the wrath of condemnation that is on this blog!Roninoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-66816658280664598432009-06-23T03:54:38.196+03:002009-06-23T03:54:38.196+03:00As to the definition of Proseltyzation:
1) For th...As to the definition of Proseltyzation:<br /><br />1) For the fun of it...I am not sure that this necessarily pertains to someone who does not address a *particular individual*,<br /><br />2) Most importatnly: Has guideliness where for the most part, most of theose who are to be proseltyzed will reject their participation nad moreover: His organization (EJF) will turn them away! So, even if you are correct about the tecnical term he does act mostly in THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION! for those who slightly do not fit the criteria of kabbalat hamitzvot are rejected and are advised that they are not candidates.<br /><br />3) You make it sound as if this is the whole and only operation of R' tropper: when the truth is that at the very end he probably mAkes less or at most the same amount of covnerts made by other batey dinim, so he cannot be "prosetyziiing" in the objective term of the word, in a way that he attempts to have a very large amount of convert when actually his activities do not reach those levels.<br /><br />4) and after all his acitivites entails: LEss GOYIM AND SHIKSSAS IKLAL YISREOL AND LESS sale and corruption of yiddishkeyt by selling it to entrance of goyim into klal yisroel. so his organization as an organization that is defined by proseltyzing is incorrect.<br /><br />This is regarding the meaning of the word and it's concept. Now regarding whether or not this is assur al pi halacha is another matter. After all even "proseltyzation" in the most liberal of it's terms is not mentioned in *Shulchan *Oruch* let alone an exact definition of it.<br /><br />So, therefore, even if one might say that there is an issur in (less than sheynoh barur) to engage in it, the terms of the issur is clearly not defined as to whether it entails precisely to : inducing a certain person to become a Ger and calling and working with him/her in that regard, or it is a little more wider. How much and far does the "inducing" have to go for it be assur: Is it active brainwashing, or even begging, or even convincing or even finding ways that he comes to you? <br /><br />all of the above are not dixcsussed at all in *halachik terms*. <br /><br />now: Even if it would be prohibited, but it would be an "issur sheynoh barur", then according to Rav Moshe it would very likely be included in his permission to violate this "issur sheynoh barur" for the sake of preventing issurim chamurim of staying married to a goy! as he writes so regarding the issur sheynoh barur of converting leshem ishut!<br /><br />to be continued...Roninoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-46301334445493064092009-06-23T03:53:52.624+03:002009-06-23T03:53:52.624+03:00I'm having again problems in making this posts...I'm having again problems in making this posts. I'll try it by splitting them: Roni: "Fair enough!<br /><br />But:<br /><br />1) Let's first establish that "proselytizing" is *not* the tactic of r' Tropper! For he does not *push* anyone to convert. He stated to me clearly so in the past and I do not see that the information you provide about his activities show otherwise and neither does his website.<br /><br />2) What is being discussed is helping/semi encouraging a couple that *comes to them*! And at the same time the process is one that cuts through the prospects who are not serious to commit themselves to observe. Iow, not only does he not engage in going out to push and to look for individual intermarried families but he does not even *push* or *beg* that they convert. what he organization does is encourage once they came to him the avenue of conversion if they brought it up to to his organization.<br /><br />3) furthermore: R' tropper asserts that this main way of operation is to deal with Kiruv Organizations who already work with those intermarried couples whose partners would like to get closer to yiddishkeyt and they would like to explore the possibility for conversion, this is when his organization get's involved.<br />4) Now that you do *not* have a source from Rav MOshe *himself* and his works it is a word against a word!"<br /><br />========================<br />This is what I wrote earleir, In other words the first point which important in it's own right and I differ with you is still not sufficient even *leshitatcha*. Let's have this clear before we get entagled thinking that given your position Rav REuven would be obliged to give a letter. On the contrary, on the end of the day *you* and Rav Feurst would have to have something stronger to prove to the public that you guys have greater knowledge than the Rosh HaYeshiva Harav Reuven Feinstein as to what would be Rav Moshe's position in this case! SO after all the "dust has not settled" anywhere at the public arena! <br /><br />NOw let's talk a bit the other point:: DT writes "Now that the air has cleared and the dust settled it seems obvious what is going on.<br /><br />We obviously have a different understanding of proselytization. To me someone who sends out notices on the internet and newspapers asking for those curious about Judaism or mixed couples or intermarried couples to contact his organization or to sign up for a program of high power speakers - and as Jonathan Rosenblum stated that Tropper is spending millions of dollars in Israel alone to encourage these non-Jews to convert - that is called proselytization. In contrast in the cases in the literature it seems that the couple came to the rav and asked that the non-Jewish spouse be converted.<br />Thus Rav Moshe is not addressing Tropper's program".<br /><br />Roni: Before we go on, remember *RAv Moshe does NOT address* and state a prohibtion of what Rav Tropper does.Roninoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-80439090857905101572009-06-22T21:53:08.959+03:002009-06-22T21:53:08.959+03:00Mekubal,
Regarding your point arding "tinok ...Mekubal,<br /><br />Regarding your point arding "tinok shenishbah" and that he didn't apply regarding intermarriage that he didn't apply to intermarriage:<br /><br />1) I used it regarding your point of difference between "lechatchila" and "diavad" and I stated that "oness" should be no worse than "shaat hadchak" that is like "diavad". I don't know why this would be a chiddush regarding this point.<br /><br />2) Do you mean that Chazon Ish ruled that we should not use "tnok shenishbah" regarding converting someone who didn't know that he is not allowed to intermarry. If so, please cite your source. <br /><br />Actually, here it is much easier and not a chidush at all to apply "itnok shenishbah" since we have the posskim using Teshuvot Harambam fo be leninet in tghese conversions (when they have kabalat mitzvot) for the REASON OF TAKANAT HASHAVIM. Here it is no chidush to apply "Takanat hashavim" to TINOK SHENISBAH? there is no greater need for "Takanat hashavim" for this people who were not knowledgable and were not educated at all about any judaism or at least the importance and what it means.Roninoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-56226552232877215542009-06-22T19:36:03.378+03:002009-06-22T19:36:03.378+03:00mekubal,
I too don't have the time and energy...mekubal,<br /><br />I too don't have the time and energy, but you come off as the know it all, but you simply don't read the sources. I at least quoted to you a parts of the teshuva and since you seem familar with the author I thought you would l0ok it up inside. I don't own the seridey eish and in the Bar Illan copy didn't havw 2/6 relating to the teshuva you cited. So I could not check it up. I checked it up and yes, he writes that a person who itnermarries has the halchik status of a menudah regarding the halacha of not giving him aliyah and not counting him as part of the minyan. (howefver, the source for the niduy is not inEH 16 that you mentioned).<br /><br />AND DESPITE THE ABOVE THE SAME SERIDEY EISH IN THE SIMAN I QUOTED (IN YOUR TESHVUVOT IT WOULD PROBABLY BE IN 2/50) STATES AND PERMITS TO CONVERT THAT A PERSON WHO IS MARRIED TO A GOYA CONTRARY TO YOUR OWN MISREADINGS OF HIS WORDS! (Part of your point was that if they were already married and worthy for excommunication we should not convert. This is clearly CONTRARY TO WHAT HE SAYS THERE CLEARLY).<br /><br />"על דרך השאלה באיש אחד שנשא נכרית בערכעותיהם ועכשיו היא מעוברת ורוצה להתגייר והיא מקבלת על עצמה שתתנהג כדת לשמור שבת כשרות וטהרת המשפחה...מכיון שהם נשואים ע"פ הערכעות....שהיא נשואה לו ע"י ערכעות יש אומדנא שכוונתה לש"ש ולכן שתשמור דיני יהדות שבת כשרות וטהרת המשפחה יש התיר כמו שהורו הגר"A קלוגער והגרח"ע...":אם תקבל באמת בע"פ הכתב <br /><br />So, the Seridey Eish obviously knew of his own teshuva and yet permitted to convert in order to prevent from issur chamur and in order to allow takanat hashavim as ruled by Rambam.<br /><br />If you want I'll explain to you later the chiluk hapashut that the tshuvot are not contradictory! But relating to our discussion Rav Weinbers permits to convert even when are already MARRIED!<br /><br /><br />Regarding r' tROPPER'S POSITION WITH SEPARATION, i BLEEIVE THAT r" tROPPER bATEY dINIM WILL NOT CONVERT UNLESS THEY SEPARATE!<br /><br />REgarding R' Eisenstein I can only go by what he DOES AND SAYS PUBLICLY AND IS RECORDED AND PRINTED IN THE PAPER IN HIS NAME! in Yerushalayim's ocnference he PRAISED strongly EJF as a benefeit to the Generation! I ihghly doubt it that if shared your negative feelnigs about them that he would praise the organization as a salvation for generation!Roninoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-33873193105413737572009-06-22T16:41:17.484+03:002009-06-22T16:41:17.484+03:00Roni,
You are confusing the issues. First read t...Roni,<br /><br />You are confusing the issues. First read the Siderei Eish that I presented and see what he says there. <br /><br /><i><br />Same with Seridey Eish. Actually Seridey Eish 2/75 permits to convert someone leshem ishut and the prohibition of "nitan al hanochrit" after she is married to the fellow in order to prevent an issur chamur:<br /><br />שו"ת שרידי אש חלק ב סימן עה עמוד תקנה<br /><br />והנה האיסור לכנוס הוא מדרבנן והוא עובר רק פעם אחת, ולכן אם אנו יודעים שאפילו אם לא נגייר אותה יחזיקנה לאשתו, וא"כ יעבור כל ימי חייו על בעילת נכרית, א"כ מוטב שנתיר לו איסור דרבנן, שלא יכנוס, כדי שלא יעבור כל ימיו.<br /><br /><br />And so we have numerous posskim that dealth with similar issues and permitted bediavad based on Teshuvot Harambam for Takanat Hashavim. Look at Yabia Omer of Rav Ovadaya and you'll see him brining lots and lots of posskim who permit similar issurim derabanan on this matter.</i><br /><br />This is a completely different issue. We are not dealing with people who are married, but rather who have had relations b'issur. So if the woman is willing to convert, b'diavad we let her, so as to prevent the need to excomunicate the man. What this does mean in practicality is that they will not have relations or live together during the duration of her conversion process(which usually takes several years). If Tropper is telling these intermarried couples that they must seperate until they have a halachic marriage, then I will gladly drop my objection. Yet I don't think that is the case.<br /><br />Yes R' Ovadiah and Rabbinut allow b'diavad conversions of goyim in non-married relationships with Jews. However, when it comes down to the separation issue, that usually puts a stop to it. I have seen 9 couples enter this process in the last two years. One is still in it, the others have broken up and the women gone back to their respective countries except in one other case, where the woman(despite the ending of her relationship) stayed on with the conversion process.<br /><br />Secondly flinging out Tinok HaNishba is a non-starter. To apply that to the entire generation was a chiddush of the Hazon Ish, and he only applied that chiddush in certain circumstances, inter-marriage not being one of them.<br /><br />As far as R' Eisenstein's words, they were quite public. Considering that the question was asked in front of Shiur of around 100 perspective Dayyanim, I would call that public. In fact I would call it potentially rather damaging considering that there are not 100 future dayyanim that have had doubts cast upon Tropper's approach.<br /><br />Sorry Roni, I simply don't have time or energy to continue to go around this tree with you. Especially as long as you intentionally twist sources to fit your views while ignoring those that specifically condemn them.Rabbi Michael Tzadokhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02307256653501750003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-48067231251346434762009-06-22T16:09:06.250+03:002009-06-22T16:09:06.250+03:00Fair enough!
But:
1) Let's first establish t...Fair enough!<br /><br />But:<br /><br />1) Let's first establish that "proselytizing" is *not* the tactic of r' Tropper! For he does not *push* anyone to convert. He stated to me clearly so in the past and I do not see that the information you provide about his activities show otherwise and neither does his website.<br /><br />2) What is being discussed is helping/semi encouraging a couple that *comes to them*! And at the same time the process is one that cuts through the prospects who are not serious to commit themselves to observe. Iow, not only does he not engage in going out to push and to look for individual intermarried families but he does not even *push* or *beg* that they convert. what he organization does is encourage once they came to him the avenue of conversion if they brought it up to to his organization.<br /><br />3) furthermore: R' tropper asserts that this main way of operation is to deal with Kiruv Organizations who already work with those intermarried couples whose partners would like to get closer to yiddishkeyt and they would like to explore the possibility for conversion, this is when his organization get's involved.<br />4) Now that you do *not* have a source from Rav MOshe *himself* and his works it is a word against a word!<br /><br />========================<br />Now that the air has cleared and the dust settled it seems obvious what is going on.<br /><br />We obviously have a different understanding of proselytization. To me someone who sends out notices on the internet and newspapers asking for those curious about Judaism or mixed couples or intermarried couples to contact his organization or to sign up for a program of high power speakers - and as Jonathan Rosenblum stated that Tropper is spending millions of dollars in Israel alone to encourage these non-Jews to convert - that is called proselytization. In contrast in the cases in the literature it seems that the couple came to the rav and asked that the non-Jewish spouse be converted. <br />Thus Rav Moshe is not addressing Tropper's program.<br /><br />Thus you are right that it is the word of Rav Fuerst that Rav Moshe never approved of what R' Tropper is doing versus R' Tropper. However as you should noticed - your insistance that the bodily participation of rabbonim indicates that they approve of R' Tropper's program - has been clearly disproved by the words of R' Eisenstein himself. He is quoted as saying:<br /> "Tropper claims to have the backing of Gedolim, yet he has never produced a single haskama. In Shiur I asked R' Eisenstein if he or R' Eliyashiv Shlit"a support Tropper and his approach, his answer, "When you see a haskama bearing my name or the name of MaRan, then you can assume support, not before, involvement wiht an individual does not insinuate endorsement" I must say that his tone was rather sharp."<br /><br />Thus we see that Rav Sternbuch's request from the very beginning for haskamos - is validated by Rav Eisenstein and Rav Eliashiv that Tropper claims are his biggest supporters.<br /><br />R' Tropper is demanding that we accept his unsupported word that he has the approval of gedolim in all that he does. It would not take more than 15 minutes for these gedolim to write a letter. Until they do R' Tropper has no convincing evidence and the longer he goes without the letters the more questionable his program becomes.<br /><br />As a postscript - it is important to note that R' Tropper's main supporter recently lost the first half of his lawsuit in Florida and that his opponent now has many millions of dollars to dispense that might have gone to himDaas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-87713004346125305402009-06-22T16:00:40.590+03:002009-06-22T16:00:40.590+03:00I probably lost them (and they were b not short). ...I probably lost them (and they were b not short). But i'll try to repeat in short:<br /><br />Mekubal: 1) You wrote "Sh"A explicitly states that one cannot proselytize ". where is this "rxplicitly"? <br /><br />2) Rav Eisenstein: Whatver he tells you, the meaning of what he told you cannot contradict what he *does publicly*: hE GOES TO ALMOST EVERY CONVENTION OF TROPPER (TWICE A Year). Even if he disagrees with his approach (and he probably is not a Fan of that part of the organization); he does not think it reaches a point where he should codment or even make a machaa! Her actually goes to suppoert the man. Ewhereas Bomzer he condemns his program and the person as a dayan strongly!roninoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-66045902020377011662009-06-22T16:00:39.494+03:002009-06-22T16:00:39.494+03:00I probably lost them (and they were b not short). ...I probably lost them (and they were b not short). But i'll try to repeat in short:<br /><br />Mekubal: 1) You wrote "Sh"A explicitly states that one cannot proselytize ". where is this "rxplicitly"? <br /><br />2) Rav Eisenstein: Whatver he tells you, the meaning of what he told you cannot contradict what he *does publicly*: hE GOES TO ALMOST EVERY CONVENTION OF TROPPER (TWICE A Year). Even if he disagrees with his approach (and he probably is not a Fan of that part of the organization); he does not think it reaches a point where he should codment or even make a machaa! Her actually goes to suppoert the man. Ewhereas Bomzer he condemns his program and the person as a dayan strongly!roninoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-483980210109328552009-06-22T15:40:04.451+03:002009-06-22T15:40:04.451+03:00Roni said...
I wrote a response to this; don&...Roni said...<br /><br /> I wrote a response to this; don't know why it did not appear....(not the first time)<br />================<br />I don't either. When a comment is posted it is stored in the comments section of the blog and also is sent to my email account. Your lost postings seem to not make it to either place. If you want - you can send it directly to me and I'll cut and paste them into the blog.<br />yadmoshe@yahoo.comDaas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7309929059139673041.post-65548074694022039072009-06-22T15:23:40.964+03:002009-06-22T15:23:40.964+03:00I wrote a response to this; don't know why it ...I wrote a response to this; don't know why it did not appear....(not the first time)<br /><br />Mekubal wrote:"The fact is that the Sh"A explicitly states that one cannot proselytize and that we should excommunicate(see E"H 16) a man who intermarries, until he divorces his wife."<br /><br />I have looked at EH 16. A0 where does hemention there that the fellow be excommunicated? b) most importantly: where does it discuss the fellow that was a tinok shenishbah and intermarried?<br /><br />Same with Seridey Eish. Actually Seridey Eish 2/75 permits to convert someone leshem ishut and the prohibition of "nitan al hanochrit" after she is married to the fellow in order to prevent an issur chamur:<br /><br /> שו"ת שרידי אש חלק ב סימן עה עמוד תקנה <br /><br />והנה האיסור לכנוס הוא מדרבנן והוא עובר רק פעם אחת, ולכן אם אנו יודעים שאפילו אם לא נגייר אותה יחזיקנה לאשתו, וא"כ יעבור כל ימי חייו על בעילת נכרית, א"כ מוטב שנתיר לו איסור דרבנן, שלא יכנוס, כדי שלא יעבור כל ימיו. <br /><br /><br />And so we have numerous posskim that dealth with similar issues and permitted bediavad based on Teshuvot Harambam for Takanat Hashavim. Look at Yabia Omer of Rav Ovadaya and you'll see him brining lots and lots of posskim who permit similar issurim derabanan on this matter.<br /><br />but there is thing where they do not compromise and that is:: LACK OF BASIC KABBALAT MITZVOT IE. if there is no commitment to keep shabbat, taharat hamsihpacha and kashrut on the basic level these Posskim would give their hands on it and they would highly forbid it and condemnt it!Roninoreply@blogger.com